socialism v. capitalism: Rating Options

[NoSex]

i view capitalism as a mode of economic & social infancy. i think that it is regressive to society, poisonous, & under-developing.

i point to these basic "flaws" in capitalism*:
1. the emphasis on profit as opposed to utility.
2. the creation of oligarchy & plutocracy.
3. the unfair/uneven distribution of wealth.
4. the creation of a significant class divide.
5. the inability of capitalism, alone, to provide the people with necessities.
6. the exploitation of the working class.
7. the existence of crime in excess, caused by class struggle, poverty, & proletariat anxiety.
8. the creation of an oppressive institution (i.e. the police state, the church, the education system) in order to secure profits to a specific & elite population.

i point to these basic "benefits" in socialism*:
1. the emphasis on utility.
2. the destruction of plutocracy & (in many forms) oligarchy.
3. the fair distribution of wealth.
4. the destruction of a significant class divide.
5. the ability of socialism to provide for its people, necessities.
6. the affirmation of the working class.
7. the absence of crime invoked by squalor & proletariat anxiety.
8. the destruction of specific oppressive institutions & the opportunity to reform the state (i.e. despite the pull of capital & profits).

DISCUSS.

*quotation marks provided for argument's sake. whatever.

[brooklyneast05]

Like the slaves? How far are you going back. Are you talking about immigrants? What minorities are being thrown into poverty now? I thought myself in public school because the education sucked there. If I hadn't taken that initiative then I would've been stupid just like the rest of the kids in my class. Maybe the first step these people should take is to get away from what's dragging them down... their family.

how do kids get away from their family? just up and leave and start going to a good school in a good community?

Do you honestly believe those people who are on welfare think they're lazy. Of course they're not lazy. They're "always" looking for a job. They just "can't" do anything without the help of the gov't. They make the people who work hard and get screwed look like they're crying wolf.

but i'm not even talking about people who abuse welfare, or drugs, or any of the rest of this. i'm talking about people who go to work everyday to try to have something to eat and somewhere to sleep. you're not even addressing what i'm talking about because i've never once this whole debate been talking about people WITHOUT job.

[Uronacid]

but i'm not even talking about people who abuse welfare, or drugs, or any of the rest of this. i'm talking about people who go to work everyday to try to have something to eat and somewhere to sleep. you're not even addressing what i'm talking about because i've never once this whole debate been talking about people WITHOUT job.

I have never seen anyone who's single, has a stable job, works every day, yet cannot get by.

[brooklyneast05]

I have never seen anyone who's single, has a stable job, works every day, yet cannot get by.

yeah but getting by isn't getting ahead. just because you can get by in the lower class doesn't mean you're hard work is ever going to get you out of lower class. that's what i'm saying.

Minimum wage should be rid of. That's just as bad as welfare. Lets be realistic.. minimum wage is more for kids during summer... little 14/15 year olds. Not for adults who have actual bills. Minimum wage couldn't even cover mortgage, much less health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, vehicular insurance, life insurance, home insurance, 401k, etc... minimum wage is useless and it's part of the problem in this country.

i agree

[Uronacid]

yeah but getting by isn't getting ahead. just because you can get by in the lower class doesn't mean you're hard work is ever going to get you out of lower class. that's what i'm saying.
i agree

Simple hard work will never get you out of that cycle... you have to educate yourself and make decisions that will further your career. When I say hard work I don't mean, "Hard work some other random minimum wage job". They still have the option to educate themselves. Again, I was summing it all up as hard work.

Minimum wage should be rid of. That's just as bad as welfare. Lets be realistic.. minimum wage is more for kids during summer... little 14/15 year olds. Not for adults who have actual bills. Minimum wage couldn't even cover mortgage, much less health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, vehicular insurance, life insurance, home insurance, 401k, etc... minimum wage is useless and it's part of the problem in this country.

If you were to remove minimum wage then businesses would be able to take advantage of their employees. Someone who works a minimum wage job for 40 hours a week can get by paying rent/bills.

[illriginal]

Simple hard work will never get you out of that cycle... you have to educate yourself and make decisions that will further your career. When I say hard work I don't mean, "Hard work some other random minimum wage job". They still have the option to educate themselves. Again, I was summing it all up as hard work.



If you were to remove minimum wage then businesses would be able to take advantage of their employees. Someone who works a minimum wage job for 40 hours a week can get by paying rent/bills.

lol no they wouldn't.

Florida, minimum wage is $7.21


$7.21 x 40 = $288.40

$288.40 x 4 = 1153.60


lol... I make that much in a week (a lil less actually). And no way in hell can I afford my mortgage, electricity, cell phone bill, internet, satellite tv, car insurance, health insurance, life insurance, 401k, vision insurance, dental insurance, groceries etc... with what I make.

I STRONGLY doubt someone making minimum wage can afford to live by themselves, paying rent, electricity, car insurance, and other bills combined each month. It is impossible.

[Uronacid]

lol no they wouldn't.

Florida, minimum wage is $7.21
$7.21 x 40 = $288.40

$288.40 x 4 = 1153.60
lol... I make that much in a week (a lil less actually). And no way in hell can I afford my mortgage, electricity, cell phone bill, internet, satellite tv, car insurance, health insurance, life insurance, 401k, vision insurance, dental insurance, groceries etc... with what I make.

I STRONGLY doubt someone making minimum wage can afford to live by themselves, paying rent, electricity, car insurance, and other bills combined each month. It is impossible.

That's just it, you wouldn't have a mortgage, car insurance, cellphone bill, vision insurance, satellite tv, or dental insurance with those wages.

With 1153.60 you would have a 1 bedroom apartment for about $450 a month, $200 a month for heat and electric for one person, and $200 dollars a month for groceries for one person. That leaves us with 303.60, but wait we have to pay a shit ton of money for taxes. So, since this individual has claimed himself as a dependent we drop that to about $150.00 left over.

[mipadi]

That's just it, you wouldn't have a mortgage, car insurance, cellphone bill, vision insurance, satellite tv, or dental insurance with those wages.

With 1153.60 you would have a 1 bedroom apartment for about $450 a month, $200 a month for heat and electric for one person, and $200 dollars a month for groceries for one person. That leaves us with 303.60, but wait we have to pay a shit ton of money for taxes. So, since this individual has claimed himself as a dependent we drop that to about $150.00 left over.

You're missing, and underestimating, a bunch of expenses.

For example, I don't live in a pricey area, but $200 alone wouldn't cover food. I probably spend $275 a month on food. That includes going out once or twice, but I'm also not exactly eating steak and lobster every night. Sometimes I only eat once or twice a day, too. I could maybe trim it to $250, but that'd be stretching it.

Car insurance, for some people, is practically a necessity, too. Not every place has an easy access to mass transit, and a lot of people can't get to work without a car. As for health insurance, most minimum-wage jobs don't offer health insurance, so you either (a) have to get it on your own (another cost), or (b) not get sick. (b) is a pretty pricey option if you do have the misfortune of falling ill, or even getting hit by a car or something like that.

You also left out things like water bills and gas bills. Okay, sometimes rent covers water, and not everyone has gas, but these are additional expenses for some people. For example, my rent doesn't cover water or gas, so if I want to have a hot shower, I have to pay for that, too.

[Uronacid]

You're missing, and underestimating, a bunch of expenses.

For example, I don't live in a pricey area, but $200 alone wouldn't cover food. I probably spend $275 a month on food. That includes going out once or twice, but I'm also not exactly eating steak and lobster every night. Sometimes I only eat once or twice a day, too. I could maybe trim it to $250, but that'd be stretching it.

Car insurance, for some people, is practically a necessity, too. Not every place has an easy access to mass transit, and a lot of people can't get to work without a car. As for health insurance, most minimum-wage jobs don't offer health insurance, so you either (a) have to get it on your own (another cost), or (b) not get sick. (b) is a pretty pricey option if you do have the misfortune of falling ill, or even getting hit by a car or something like that.

You also left out things like water bills and gas bills. Okay, sometimes rent covers water, and not everyone has gas, but these are additional expenses for some people. For example, my rent doesn't cover water or gas, so if I want to have a hot shower, I have to pay for that, too.

Ok, so we'll bring it to 250. I spend about 200 dollars on food each week on my own. I don't believe it would be stretching it if they watched what they purchased the same way I do. They're left with 100 dollars for the month. Health insurance is off, this person doesn't make enough for that. They need to get a phone so -$20 a month for vonage. Cars are a luxury when you're on minimum wage.You need a job that pays more before that happens. Car is off limits. Now we're down to 80 dollars left over...

$135.51 <- traditional monthly health insurance from ehealthinsurance.com for me. So, if we give Joe health insurance he has:

-75.51 per month

It's still hard to believe that this person is so pathetic that they cannot do anything but work a minimum wage jobs to make a living. Looks like Joe will have to work at 2 McDonald's locations before he can get out of the rut. Maybe a 60 hour work week at two minimum wage jobs will help. It will give him about 400 extra dollars a month after taxes. So he can have 325.00 a month to save.

[mipadi]

Ok, so we'll bring it to 250. I spend about 200 dollars on food each week on my own. I don't believe it would be stretching it if they watched what they purchased the same way I do. They're left with 100 dollars for the month. Health insurance is off, this person doesn't make enough for that. They need to get a phone so -$20 a month for vonage. Cars are a luxury when you're on minimum wage.You need a job that pays more before that happens. Car is off limits. Now we're down to 80 dollars left over...

A car is not a luxury. If you can't get to work, you can't get paid, and in many areas, mass transit is simply not an option. I don't think health insurance can be discredited so easily, either -- if you get sick or injured, you either need insurance, or you need to pay bills yourself. Either way is expensive; what's more costly, though?

I think it's pretty callous of you to suggest that someone working a minimum-wage job should either not get sick or injured, or foot the bill themselves.

[Uronacid]

A car is not a luxury. If you can't get to work, you can't get paid, and in many areas, mass transit is simply not an option. I don't think health insurance can be discredited so easily, either -- if you get sick or injured, you either need insurance, or you need to pay bills yourself. Either way is expensive; what's more costly, though?

I think it's pretty callous of you to suggest that someone working a minimum-wage job should either not get sick or injured, or foot the bill themselves.

It's not me brotha' it's life. He's trying to survive. I added health insurance to the plan, however he'll have to work 60 hours a week. Joe can ride the bicycle to work because he works in the city. He moved there to support his life style because he couldn't survive the rocky mountains. He is saving 325.00 a month while working 60 hours a week.