Machiavellianism & Politics Options

[batman]

We just finished up reading The Prince and The Discourses by Machiavelli and I thought some of the ideas he brings up are very interesting and controversial. I almost wish we could spend more than just a week discussing Machiavelli, because there's just so much to talk about.

The basic Machiavellian idea is that in order to be a successful ruler, you must be able and willing to do evil/wrong/bad/malicious things to promote the stability of the state. Up until Machiavelli, we've heard time after time about the just ruler, the philosopher king, importance of values, etc.

In The Discourses, everything and anything is justifiable as long as it is in the interest of the state, including murder, manipulation, breaking promises/vows, anything that goes against the values instilled in regular humans.

There's really no moral or immoral, just... what is best for the state?

What are your thoughts about this? Do you see Obama as a Machiavellian ruler?

[batman]

Well, from what I understand, Machiavelli says that the successful ruler is one who can appear to have all the virtues, but is willing and capable of breaking virtues and doing "malicious" things for the well-being of the country.

He references Brutus, who murdered his sons, but says that he was right in doing so because it was for the stability of the state.

I sort of see the whole "war on terrorism" as a very Machiavellian move. While the noble, virtuous reason that got everybody pumped up in the first place was "let's kill those motherfuckin' terrorists," we all know that the underlying reason is for oil, weapons of mass destruction, etc.