Machiavellianism & Politics Options

[batman]

We just finished up reading The Prince and The Discourses by Machiavelli and I thought some of the ideas he brings up are very interesting and controversial. I almost wish we could spend more than just a week discussing Machiavelli, because there's just so much to talk about.

The basic Machiavellian idea is that in order to be a successful ruler, you must be able and willing to do evil/wrong/bad/malicious things to promote the stability of the state. Up until Machiavelli, we've heard time after time about the just ruler, the philosopher king, importance of values, etc.

In The Discourses, everything and anything is justifiable as long as it is in the interest of the state, including murder, manipulation, breaking promises/vows, anything that goes against the values instilled in regular humans.

There's really no moral or immoral, just... what is best for the state?

What are your thoughts about this? Do you see Obama as a Machiavellian ruler?

[brooklyneast05]

^yes i would.

but then...i don't know that i really see how that relates to running a country. becuase, we're talking about one guy who i know for a fact is the criminal. that doesn't seem the same to me as war or something like that. where tons of people who i don't know and who didn't really do anything to me are being killed. i don't know if you know what i mean or where i'm losing that example. it's just such a different scale between an isolated in the moment situation involving one man vs. the kind of situations/decisions that a ruler would make.