Rehabilitation or Retribution, Our criminal justice system. Options

[MissHygienic]

Which one should we focus on more in our criminal justice system? Basically, which one would serve as a satisfactory/fitting punishment for prisoners?

[ersatz]

You guys keep saying it won't work here, but you haven't explained why it won't work here other than, "We are not Norway." So...?

And, if that argument is so sound, then why are we trying to make Iraq into a democratic state? Why do we think that sort of thing is an OK change, when, clearly, Iraq /= America, but we think that taking a look at our prison and healthcare systems is entirely too dramatic, because America /= Norway, Iceland, Sweden, France, England, Belgium, Ireland, Spain, Germany....

[kryogenix]

You guys keep saying it won't work here, but you haven't explained why it won't work here other than, "We are not Norway." So...?

http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...t&p=2848742

Read:

You're using the logic that since Norway + Five Star Hotel prison system = good prisoners, then America + Five Star Hotel prison system = good prisoners. The problem with that logic is that America != Norway, and that's EXACTLY why you can write it off as a system that will not work if implemented now.

Your recipe for success doesn't work if you're substituting the wrong ingredients in. There are plenty of reasons why America's prisons being different from Norway would mean that their system would not work here. Like I was alluding to with paperplane, you don't have racial diversity in the prisons in Norway, so there are no race wars there. You don't have an enormous population in Norway. You don't have the same income tax as in Norway. You're not going to be able to scale up huge programs like that to America-size without things becoming incredibly inefficient.

Why this is so hard to understand, I do not know.

And, if that argument is so sound, then why are we trying to make Iraq into a democratic state? Why do we think that sort of thing is an OK change, when, clearly, Iraq /= America, but we think that taking a look at our prison and healthcare systems is entirely too dramatic, because America /= Norway, Iceland, Sweden, France, England, Belgium, Ireland, Spain, Germany....

I don't think democracy works for everyone. Likewise, Norway's prison system will not work for everyone.

So there goes that argument. Nice try.

[Spirited Away]

http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...t&p=2848742

Read:
Your recipe for success doesn't work if you're substituting the wrong ingredients in. There are plenty of reasons why America's prisons being different from Norway would mean that their system would not work here. Like I was alluding to with paperplane, you don't have racial diversity in the prisons in Norway, so there are no race wars there. You don't have an enormous population in Norway. You don't have the same income tax as in Norway. You're not going to be able to scale up huge programs like that to America-size without things becoming incredibly inefficient.

Why this is so hard to understand, I do not know.
I don't think democracy works for everyone. Likewise, Norway's prison system will not work for everyone.

So there goes that argument. Nice try.

Perfect. That is, I mean I agree.

[NoSex]

Perfect. That is, I mean I agree.

You're agreeing with a straw man argument.

No one was ever suggesting that implementation of a Norwegian system would meet with the same exact success in America. What we were trying to point out is that rehabilitation can work. Further, we were saying that we should be examining those societies in which they do work in order to better understand why they work. And, lastly, we all recognized that the success of rehabilitation (financially, practically, etc. etc.) would be part of larger social change.

I've tried to make that clear a few times now. Kyro decided he would ignore it.

[kryogenix]

And I've been saying, what's your point? We're talking about OUR justice system. Your discussion is going off on a tangent.

Going hardline and annihilating all criminals CAN WORK too. Should we examine those societies too in order to better understand why they work? And should we recognized that the success of annihilation (financially, practically, etc. etc.) would be part of larger social change?

Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

[NoSex]

Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Actually, it does. If we have any interest whatsoever in the progression and advancement of mankind and, specifically, our society, we should consider and look at all possibilities and consider them within reason. In the case of capital punishment, it's interesting, really, that such practice is most popular in the underdeveloped and third-world countries. Starting to get the point? It's called pragmatism and social reformation. If we have any concern for maintaining and or increasing the standard-of-living, we should very seriously consider those social structures that present with higher standards than our own.

Pragmatism.

If you don't value those things, you probably won't be creating a very stable or successful society. It's not whether it's wrong or right (I'm an amoralist), it's whether or not it's practical/pragmatic.

[kryogenix]

Actually, it does. If we have any interest whatsoever in the progression and advancement of mankind and, specifically, our society, we should consider and look at all possibilities and consider them within reason. In the case of capital punishment, it's interesting, really, that such practice is most popular in the underdeveloped and third-world countries. Starting to get the point? It's called pragmatism and social reformation. If we have any concern for maintaining and or increasing the standard-of-living, we should very seriously consider those social structures that present with higher standards than our own.

Pragmatism.

If you don't value those things, you probably won't be creating a very stable or successful society. It's not whether it's wrong or right (I'm an amoralist), it's whether or not it's practical/pragmatic.

Well then, what SHOULD we do? What's the point of bringing up Norway when we know it won't work here? Why are you talking about massive change and practicality in the same sentence? Why even talk about justice when you don't care about right and wrong? I've got a modest proposal for you, let's chop up the criminals and feed them to the poor! Pragmatism at work!

Trying something that isn't fair and doesn't work isn't pragmatism. It's called stupidity.