Right and Wrong Options

[elaboratedream]

Lets start this out by saying that I don't want this to turn into a debate about religion. We have FAR too many of those.


As a society, we have a detailed code of what is right and what is wrong. Laws are put in place to try to discourage people from doing something that is "wrong."

But where do these concepts of right and wrong come from? Don't say that it comes from some sort of higher power. First, that's all bs, but more importantly, these concepts of right and wrong have been around far longer than any modern religions.

What makes something right? More importantly, what makes something wrong?

discuss.

[Spirited Away]

Premises do not follow conclusions, or rather, I'm just not clear on these.

1) Someone wants to live and you kill them is wrong, therefore murder is wrong.

Let's say in a certaint society, there is a killer/murderer of countless children. This killer/murderer doesn't want to die, but when he is caught, he is sent to death row and is eletrocuted soon after. Is this society guilty of murdering the murderer?

2) Theft is wrong. Someone chose to own the item, you took it away

If I own a grenade and show it off to my neighbors, who gets fussy and calls the cops on me and take it away... did the cops steal from me? I chose to own it though...

3) Exposure to second hand smoke causes cancer. Your choice is affecting someone.

4) Inforcing laws against something that isn't wrong is wrong. Someone chose to do w/e and you didn't let them.

Then you're saying that foreclosure laws (though unfair at times), jaywalking laws, or laws against diving boards around pools with shallow waters are wrong?

That was sick. I will have a nightmare.

[elaboratedream]

Let's say in a certaint society, there is a killer/murderer of countless children. This killer/murderer doesn't want to die, but when he is caught, he is sent to death row and is eletrocuted soon after. Is this society guilty of murdering the murderer?

If the person did something that is wrong, they know the consequences. They are making a complex choice. It doesn't just stop with a choice to kill someone or not to kill someone. It continues to a choice to kill someone and then go to jail and possibly be killed for the crime. Thus, although they may change their mind on the decision, the decision has been made and the punishment is part of the choice.

If I own a grenade and show it off to my neighbors, who gets fussy and calls the cops on me and take it away... did the cops steal from me? I chose to own it though...

Yes, the cops stole it from you. Their actions were wrong, and should not be tolerated.

3) Exposure to second hand smoke causes cancer. Your choice is affecting someone.

No, it's not. The person made a choice to be around you. Unless of course you have them tied up and you're blowing smoke in their face (which would be wrong), its your own fault for chosing to be near them.

Then you're saying that foreclosure laws (though unfair at times), jaywalking laws, or laws against diving boards around pools with shallow waters are wrong?

For the most part, yes. I also think that anti-drug laws, anti-prostitution laws, and drinking age laws are wrong.

That was sick. I will have a nightmare

What was sick?

[Spirited Away]

1. If the person did something that is wrong, they know the consequences. They are making a complex choice. It doesn't just stop with a choice to kill someone or not to kill someone. It continues to a choice to kill someone and then go to jail and possibly be killed for the crime. Thus, although they may change their mind on the decision, the decision has been made and the punishment is part of the choice.

2. Yes, the cops stole it from you. Their actions were wrong, and should not be tolerated.


3. No, it's not. The person made a choice to be around you. Unless of course you have them tied up and you're blowing smoke in their face (which would be wrong), its your own fault for chosing to be near them.

4. For the most part, yes. I also think that anti-drug laws, anti-prostitution laws, and drinking age laws are wrong.

There was a very violent image before my post but a mod took it off.

1. I don't think I was clear so let me try again. The question I'm asking is from the perspective of the society. The society kills the murderer though he wants to live, according to your premises, however, doing so makes the society guilty of murder, which is a wrong. I am not talking about punishment for a complex choice and why it makes sense (or not), but simply how that punishment is now considered a murder based on your premises.

2. So now let's look at the bigger picture. I didn't tell you that I am a disturbed individual living in a family neighborhood near a school. Now then, if you are my neighbor, you wouldn't mind my grenade? It is not wrong to you that my possession is a threat to your neighbors, the kids, and yourself? Okay, if the answer is no and that is reality, then we would live in a dangerous world. More dangerous than it already is.

My free will to do what I want must stop where my will endangers the ability of others to exercise their free will. That's why there are laws.

3. Really. It's not? So you're saying that single mothers do not endanger their children if they smoke? Also, if I'm sitting in my favorite seat and you came along and sit next to me, proceed to smoke and blow cancer inducing smoke around me, who's free will is being threatened here? Yes, I could move, but so could you. We both refuse. What then? Who's free will is superior?

4. Why would you think foreclosure laws are wrong? Have you ever loan someone a huge amount of money and have them run away and you never see it again? Yes, it was your free will to loan them the cash, their free will to sign contracts saying that they will pay you back, their free will to run away. So what does that leaves you?

Again, here is a case of whose free will has precedent. This means we would be putting a lable on everyone, putting them into classes of importance. Why is your free will being abused and trampled on when the other get away with everything?

My free will to prostitute in your neighborhood, may not bother you, but your neighbors might try to hurt me, hunt me down for wooing their husbands and children. It's their free will to do so, but it's trampling on my free will. Who has precedence? Same with drugs.

Because I can't edit my posts on my lap top, here's a double post.

Laws [governments] are a necessary evil. This comes from Thomas Paine's Common Sense. Whether these laws seem wrong or right, we are subject to them, until we find ourselves oppressed by them and find enough anger/need for justice/need to "right" things and fight back.

Until then, I believe, the only way we know right from wrong is through experience.

[elaboratedream]

There was a very violent image before my post but a mod took it off.

1. I don't think I was clear so let me try again. The question I'm asking is from the perspective of the society. The society kills the murderer though he wants to live, according to your premises, however, doing so makes the society guilty of murder, which is a wrong. I am not talking about punishment for a complex choice and why it makes sense (or not), but simply how that punishment is now considered a murder based on your premises.

As I said, murder is wrong because the person you killed made the choice to live. However, as I also said, if that person killed someone, they were at the same time making a choice to die and can't take back that choice. Thus, no one is imposing on anyone else's free will by killing the murderer.

2. So now let's look at the bigger picture. I didn't tell you that I am a disturbed individual living in a family neighborhood near a school. Now then, if you are my neighbor, you wouldn't mind my grenade? It is not wrong to you that my possession is a threat to your neighbors, the kids, and yourself? Okay, if the answer is no and that is reality, then we would live in a dangerous world. More dangerous than it already is.

No, I wouldn't. It's your choice to have it. Simply having it doesnt mean anything. Even if you are a "disturbed individual". Being a "disturbed individual" doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to kill people w/ that grenade.

3. Really. It's not? So you're saying that single mothers do not endanger their children if they smoke? Also, if I'm sitting in my favorite seat and you came along and sit next to me, proceed to smoke and blow cancer inducing smoke around me, who's free will is being threatened here? Yes, I could move, but so could you. We both refuse. What then? Who's free will is superior?

In the case of the mother, it's not a problem if she smokes. However, if the child cannot remove itself from the situation and avoid inhaling the smoke, then she is doing something wrong by smoking while she's near the child. But in the second example, it's not wrong. You have a choice. You can sit there and risk inhaling a little bit of second hand smoke (which really isn't that harmful unless you're exposed to it A LOT of it so quit being a pussy about it) or you can move.

4. Why would you think foreclosure laws are wrong? Have you ever loan someone a huge amount of money and have them run away and you never see it again? Yes, it was your free will to loan them the cash, their free will to sign contracts saying that they will pay you back, their free will to run away. So what does that leaves you?

I apologize for that one, I had written out why I didn't think foreclosure laws were wrong, but the post got messed up and I had to rewrite it all and forgot that part.
Foreclosure laws aren't wrong because the person made a choice not to pay, and in so doing, they also made a choice to lose the property.

My free will to prostitute in your neighborhood, may not bother you, but your neighbors might try to hurt me, hunt me down for wooing their husbands and children. It's their free will to do so, but it's trampling on my free will. Who has precedence? Same with drugs.

In the case of the prostitute, the neighbors are in the wrong. You weren't affecting anyone directly by being a prostitute. the men might have been in the wrong, and the neighbors were definately wrong. By hurting the prostitute (who did nothing wrong by charging money for sex seeing as his/her client was willing to pay.) the neighbors were in the wrong.

And how do drugs affect anyone else's free will???

Laws [governments] are a necessary evil. This comes from Thomas Paine's Common Sense. Whether these laws seem wrong or right, we are subject to them, until we find ourselves oppressed by them and find enough anger/need for justice/need to "right" things and fight back.

I didn't say all laws are wrong. I was saying that laws against things that aren't wrong are wrong themselves.