The Problem of Evil, Another Theological Problem Options

[Simba]

The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.

1. God exists. (premise)
2. God is omnipotent. (premise - or true by definition of the word 'God')
3. God is all-benevolent. (premise - or true by definition)
4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. (premise - or true by definition)
5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. (premise)
6. God is opposed to all evil. (conclusion from 3 and 4)
7. God can eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 2)

1. Whatever the end result of suffering is, God can bring it about by ways which do not include suffering. (conclusion from 2)
2. God has no reason not to eliminate evil. (conclusion from 7.1)
3. God has no reason not to act immediately. (conclusion from 5)

8. God will eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 6, 7.2 and 7.3)
9. Evil exists, has existed, and probably will always exist. (premise)
10. Items 8 and 9 are contradictory; therefore, one or more of the premises is false: either God does not exist, or he is not both omnipotent and all-benevolent or there is a reason why He does not act immediately.

On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.

1. Free will requires the potential to so anything one chooses. (premise, or by definition)
2. Thus, free will requires the potential to do evil.
3. Thus, removing the potential to do evil would remove free will.

Discuss.

[Kontroll]

Right. We should just stick to the topic. Evil. That is the topic right? haha.

Well, evil is real. We might not be able to touch it or see it directly because it is a product of our minds.

Evil is just the lack of presence of goodness. I feel that people are born evil. I mean, since the Bible is loosely tied into this discussion, it says that we are born into sin, so therefore sin is evil. We are evil.

How are you tying this into the Bible? I mean, you said that it contradicts God because He is perfect. I remember you saying that. IT would be contradictory for God to create evil. Or something along those lines.

So, comment, please.

[sweetangel2128]

Right. We should just stick to the topic. Evil. That is the topic right? haha.

Well, evil is real. We might not be able to touch it or see it directly because it is a product of our minds.

Evil is just the lack of presence of goodness. I feel that people are born evil. I mean, since the Bible is loosely tied into this discussion, it says that we are born into sin, so therefore sin is evil. We are evil.

How are you tying this into the Bible? I mean, you said that it contradicts God because He is perfect. I remember you saying that. IT would be contradictory for God to create evil. Or something along those lines.

So, comment, please.

First of all, God never created Evil, your right he is perfect. The Devil/Lucifer created Evil. He was a beautiful angel from Heaven who betrayed and went against God, tried to throw him off his own throne and was thrown out of Heaven. God gave us free will and Lucifer chose not to follow God, he hated him, he wanted his power..that's where the Evil in the world comes from, the Devil created it.

Yes, true most Evil you can't see but A LOT you can. Evil can be seen. Such as witnessing someone kill a child (your seeing evil happening) or maybe someone committing suicide due to depression (again your seeing evil again).

[*Uronacid*]

First of all, God never created Evil, your right he is perfect. The Devil/Lucifer created Evil. He was a beautiful angel from Heaven who betrayed and went against God, tried to throw him off his own throne and was thrown out of Heaven. God gave us free will and Lucifer chose not to follow God, he hated him, he wanted his power..that's where the Evil in the world comes from, the Devil created it.

Yes, true most Evil you can't see but A LOT you can. Evil can be seen. Such as witnessing someone kill a child (your seeing evil happening) or maybe someone committing suicide due to depression (again your seeing evil again).

God created all things. God created the devil. God created free will, and for free will to exist, evil must also exist. God can do anything...

You aren't seeing evil. You're seeing sin. Sin is an action tainted by evil. Those people are sinning because they are evil. Everyone is sinning. Even you.

[sweetangel2128]

God created all things. God created the devil. God created free will, and for free will to exist, evil must also exist. God can do anything...

You aren't seeing evil. You're seeing sin. Sin is an action tainted by evil. Those people are sinning because they are evil. Everyone is sinning. Even you.

I know everyone sins, yes even me...

And yes God did create the Devil but he didn't create evil..people make their own choices hence free will like you said.

No, your seeing sin and evil because sin is what evil is called. Anything that is evil is devil-related therefore sinful.

[*Uronacid*]

I know everyone sins, yes even me...

And yes God did create the Devil but he didn't create evil..people make their own choices hence free will like you said.

No, your seeing sin and evil because sin is what evil is called. Anything that is evil is devil-related therefore sinful.

You have to understand that evil is merely ignorance (the absence of infinite love/wisdom/understanding/knowledge). God created people who don't have any of those things...

well... I'm finished with my reply:

Alright, this may be difficult to wrap your mind around.

Here's how I see it. First of all, you have to understand the concept of Love. Love is making the best choice, and the only way you can make the best choice in every situation every single time is if you have "infinite wisdom". Pure Love requires the best choices and is something that only God can do because He is the only Being ever to be able to make the best decision in every situation every single time.

The best decision is the perfect decision. Perfection is relative, and cannot be defined. The only Being who knows true perfection is God Himself, and the only reason He knows true perfection is because He is infinitely wise. You cannot make the "best" choices if the worst choices do not exist, and the only different between the perfect choice (if you know what it is) and the alternative is the worst choice. Meaning, any other alternative is just as bad as the worst choice if the best known alternative is purposely avoided even though it is the known best choice because the worst choice is also relative. The Greek philosopher Plato argued, "evil is merely ignorance." I agree, any decision aside from the best decision is a decision tainted by evil (A.K.A: "the ignorance of the best decision".)

Rick Bobby - Talladega Knights: "If you're not first, you're last."

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

For God to have the ability to love, He has to have the ability to do all things or in other words make all choices (including sin). Without the ability to sin He wouldn't need infinite wisdom, because without evil, imperfections wouldn't exist. The perfect choice wouldn't need infinite wisdom. If evil didn't exist then perfect choices would simply happen. It's not that God cannot sin, He just chooses not to and never will.

Interesting Observation: If you believe in God then, if God didn't have the ability to do something then it would not exist because he has the ability to accomplish all things (including contradictions).

When God placed the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" into the word He gave us the ability to love. When He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, He gave them the ability to make a choice. He gave them the ability to choose Love by obeying him (the best choice) or choose evil by taking the fruit of the tree (the alternative).

Eve chose to take the fruit out because she was selfish.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)

Often times, people tend to think that the tree had magical properties that unlocked "wisdom". I personally don't think so. Before Adam and Eve had even seen the tree, Lucifer had already fallen from heaven. Beings were already making evil choices. The tree was more of a lesson than a magic turning point in humanity.

I don't think that the tree gave them wisdom. Wisdom already existed. The tree taught them that they had the ability to make choices. It taught them to use applied knowledge to the decisions they make in their lives. The tree was a tool that indirectly gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of wisdom existing.

Giving us the ability to Love without infinite wisdom makes us imperfect or evil by nature. Because we don't have infinite wisdom, we learn from our surroundings. We learn to make decisions based upon the effect they will have on our lives. We make decisions based upon opportunity costs. To many, "perfect" decisions would effect our lives in the most positive way possible. In reality, perfect decisions effect eternity in the best way possible. The best decisions end up being self-less because we don't know all things. Perhaps this is why:

"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends" - John 15.13

This is not to say that laying down ones life for one's friend is a perfect decision, but that it is the greatest love humans are capable of showing due to the fact that we do not know all things. God is the only one who can truly love, for He is Love. We can only do our best.

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." - John 4:8