The Problem of Evil, Another Theological Problem Options

[Simba]

The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.

1. God exists. (premise)
2. God is omnipotent. (premise - or true by definition of the word 'God')
3. God is all-benevolent. (premise - or true by definition)
4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. (premise - or true by definition)
5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. (premise)
6. God is opposed to all evil. (conclusion from 3 and 4)
7. God can eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 2)

1. Whatever the end result of suffering is, God can bring it about by ways which do not include suffering. (conclusion from 2)
2. God has no reason not to eliminate evil. (conclusion from 7.1)
3. God has no reason not to act immediately. (conclusion from 5)

8. God will eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 6, 7.2 and 7.3)
9. Evil exists, has existed, and probably will always exist. (premise)
10. Items 8 and 9 are contradictory; therefore, one or more of the premises is false: either God does not exist, or he is not both omnipotent and all-benevolent or there is a reason why He does not act immediately.

On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.

1. Free will requires the potential to so anything one chooses. (premise, or by definition)
2. Thus, free will requires the potential to do evil.
3. Thus, removing the potential to do evil would remove free will.

Discuss.

[Simba]

Well, alright. To start off with, I'd like to note that my explanation is backed up not by the Bible, but by the Bhagavad-Gita. I, specifically, refer to Bhagavad Gita As It Is, written by A. C. Bhaktivedata Swami Prabhupada who is uniquely, and completely qualified to present the Bhagavad-Gita without adulteration (hence, "As It Is").

Now first, in order to understand this explanation, one must accept the realities of the Supreme Being, material nature, eternity, karma and reincarnation, and that you are not the body, but the eternal spirit. Many unenlightened peoples identify the self as the material body, and that their function is to be the enjoyer, and that the purpose of life is to find enjoyment in the material world. In reality, a person's natural function is to unconditionally love and serve God.

With the idea of being the enjoyer, people become really frustrated when reality hits them with death, disease, etcetera, and suffering becomes "evil." In human perspective, "evil" is suffering and suffering is "evil."

The material world has been created for spirits who are envious of the Lord. The material world is created as a place of pleasure, as well as suffering. The reasoning behind this is to allow the individual spirits the freedom to pursue their desire to be the enjoyer, and at the same time, teach the spirits that the role of enjoyer does not lead to absolute happiness and satisfaction.

God let's us pursue the role of enjoyer, but out of His grace, He has also placed "reminders" that real happiness and satisfaction and our real homes are not in this material world, but elsewhere. To humans, these "reminders" are known as suffering, including birth, death, aging, disease, etcetera. So really, suffering shouldn't be thought of as "evil," but rather be thought of rather positively.

Often, an intelligent person who is continually being punched in the face wants to go out and seek why it is that he is constantly being punched in the face in order to stop being punched in the face. People in this world are continually suffering, and some never go out and find out why. The intelligent person would want to go out and find out why he continues to suffer.

In order to stop suffering, one must get off the cycle of birth and death which is known as reincarnation. Reincarnation is not perpetual (a misunderstanding often made); one gets off of the cycle of reincarnation by achieving God consciousness (which may not be as easy as it may sound at the moment).

Ultimately, suffering shouldn't be seen as "evil," as it is natural in this material world. What's unnatural the spirit's being here in this material world.


I'm assuming there's going to be questions (since these concepts are not commonly known in the western world) and rebuttals against that whole explanation; go ahead, I'll reply. Oh yeah, and I guess I better establish this now that I do not follow and formal, organized religion. (This would include Hindu.)

[*Uronacid*]

Well, alright. To start off with, I'd like to note that my explanation is backed up not by the Bible, but by the Bhagavad-Gita. I, specifically, refer to Bhagavad Gita As It Is, written by A. C. Bhaktivedata Swami Prabhupada who is uniquely, and completely qualified to present the Bhagavad-Gita without adulteration (hence, "As It Is").

Now first, in order to understand this explanation, one must accept the realities of the Supreme Being, material nature, eternity, karma and reincarnation, and that you are not the body, but the eternal spirit. Many unenlightened peoples identify the self as the material body, and that their function is to be the enjoyer, and that the purpose of life is to find enjoyment in the material world. In reality, a person's natural function is to unconditionally love and serve God.

With the idea of being the enjoyer, people become really frustrated when reality hits them with death, disease, etcetera, and suffering becomes "evil." In human perspective, "evil" is suffering and suffering is "evil."

The material world has been created for spirits who are envious of the Lord. The material world is created as a place of pleasure, as well as suffering. The reasoning behind this is to allow the individual spirits the freedom to pursue their desire to be the enjoyer, and at the same time, teach the spirits that the role of enjoyer does not lead to absolute happiness and satisfaction.

God let's us pursue the role of enjoyer, but out of His grace, He has also placed "reminders" that real happiness and satisfaction and our real homes are not in this material world, but elsewhere. To humans, these "reminders" are known as suffering, including birth, death, aging, disease, etcetera. So really, suffering shouldn't be thought of as "evil," but rather be thought of rather positively.

Often, an intelligent person who is continually being punched in the face wants to go out and seek why it is that he is constantly being punched in the face in order to stop being punched in the face. People in this world are continually suffering, and some never go out and find out why. The intelligent person would want to go out and find out why he continues to suffer.

In order to stop suffering, one must get off the cycle of birth and death which is known as reincarnation. Reincarnation is not perpetual (a misunderstanding often made); one gets off of the cycle of reincarnation by achieving God consciousness (which may not be as easy as it may sound at the moment).

Ultimately, suffering shouldn't be seen as "evil," as it is natural in this material world. What's unnatural the spirit's being here in this material world.
I'm assuming there's going to be questions (since these concepts are not commonly known in the western world) and rebuttals against that whole explanation; go ahead, I'll reply. Oh yeah, and I guess I better establish this now that I do not follow and formal, organized religion. (This would include Hindu.)

I really like what you have said here, "Suffering is not evil. It's a reminder of the role that will lead to true happiness."

One thing I'm confused about is your reference to "reincarnation". I guess I'm used to seeing the word when people refer to other religions. I think your referring to the spiritual rebirth associated with being "born again". I guess I'm not sure... >.<

P.S. I'm sorry I haven't replied... I'm still thinking. Thoughts as complicated as the one I was having are really hard to organize. I will reply and include the first reply in my second reply so that people aren't confused.

[Simba]

I really like what you have said here, "Suffering is not evil. It's a reminder of the role that will lead to true happiness."

One thing I'm confused about is your reference to "reincarnation". I guess I'm used to seeing the word when people refer to other religions. I think your referring to the spiritual rebirth associated with being "born again". I guess I'm not sure... >.<

Right, I should have probably been more informative on the part about reincarnation since I guess not too many people around here know too much about it.

When most people hear reincarnation, they usually think of a never ending process of birth and rebirth, which is in fact not the whole story. One is only on the "wheel" of reincarnation, so to speak, while he lives a materialistic life, whether it be positively or negatively (good or bad karma). As long as one lives a materialistic life, he will always reincarnate. One gets off the wheel of reincarnation by becoming God conscious and participating in purified actions, becoming unattached to material.

What reincarnation (and karma) have to do with solving the problem of evil is that it gives logic in the suffering, rather than, when thinking without the concept of reincarnation and karma where suffering appears to be completely random. It gives reason to why people are born where they were and by what conditions. It gives reason to why someone was born in an oppressed society, born with a birth defect, or born in the body of a dog. Id est, because of the actions (karma) a being had done in their previous bodies.

We continue to go through this process of birth, death, and rebirth (suffering), because of our materialistic desires, and until we figure out that absolute satisfaction cannot be attained in this material world, we will continue to reincarnate. And once we are enlightened of the Truths, our purpose, and let go of material desire, only then will we stop reincarnating.

[*Uronacid*]

Right, I should have probably been more informative on the part about reincarnation since I guess not too many people around here know too much about it.

When most people hear reincarnation, they usually think of a never ending process of birth and rebirth, which is in fact not the whole story. One is only on the "wheel" of reincarnation, so to speak, while he lives a materialistic life, whether it be positively or negatively (good or bad karma). As long as one lives a materialistic life, he will always reincarnate. One gets off the wheel of reincarnation by becoming God conscious and participating in purified actions, becoming unattached to material.

What reincarnation (and karma) have to do with solving the problem of evil is that it gives logic in the suffering, rather than, when thinking without the concept of reincarnation and karma where suffering appears to be completely random. It gives reason to why people are born where they were and by what conditions. It gives reason to why someone was born in an oppressed society, born with a birth defect, or born in the body of a dog. Id est, because of the actions (karma) a being had done in their previous bodies.

We continue to go through this process of birth, death, and rebirth (suffering), because of our materialistic desires, and until we figure out that absolute satisfaction cannot be attained in this material world, we will continue to reincarnate. And once we are enlightened of the Truths, our purpose, and let go of material desire, only then will we stop reincarnating.

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

[Simba]

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

No, I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any other organized religion.

My knowledge of reincarnation doesn't really come from the Bible (as, evidentaly, reincarnation isn't very significant in the Bible), though, reincarnation in the Bible has been discussed in the Transmigration topic. The solution I provided for the problem of evil is backed up by the Bhagavad-Gita.

[sweetangel2128]

No, I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any other organized religion.

My knowledge of reincarnation doesn't really come from the Bible (as, evidentaly, reincarnation isn't very significant in the Bible), though, reincarnation in the Bible has been discussed in the Transmigration topic. The solution I provided for the problem of evil is backed up by the Bhagavad-Gita.

Yeah true, the word itself isn't in the Bible but the idea is. Obviously since Jesus was God in the flesh Jesus would be the incarnation of God. At least that's what we would have to assume.

[Simba]

Yeah true, the word itself isn't in the Bible but the idea is. Obviously since Jesus was God in the flesh Jesus would be the incarnation of God. At least that's what we would have to assume.

Well... God's incarnating into Jesus is almost irrelevant when talking about reincarnation.

Reincarnation =/= incarnation. God incarnating is not the same thing as when we go through death and are born again in a new body. God incarnates at will; we have to incarnate (as long as material desire exists).

[sweetangel2128]

Well... God's incarnating into Jesus is almost irrelevant when talking about reincarnation.

Reincarnation =/= incarnation. God incarnating is not the same thing as when we go through death and are born again in a new body. God incarnates at will; we have to incarnate (as long as material desire exists).

True however, if that's the case then incarnation wouldn't exist in Biblical terms however if you think about it Jesus was born young, he was the incarnation of God but after he died he rose from his grave so wouldn't that sorta be like re-incarnation? or no?

Ps: sorry I keep puting incarnation...I meant re-incarnation lol.

[Simba]

True however, if that's the case then incarnation wouldn't exist in Biblical terms however if you think about it Jesus was born young, he was the incarnation of God but after he died he rose from his grave so wouldn't that sorta be like re-incarnation? or no?

Other references to reincarnation have been noted in the Bible, though the case of Jesus being God's incarnation is usually not one of them.

Because this was Jesus raising from his grave and using the same body, the more correct term for this would probably be "resurrection." Reincarnation, or transmigration, is the spirit transferring from one body to another.

[sweetangel2128]

Other references to reincarnation have been noted in the Bible

Where's the scriptures? Cause I've never heard of that before.

[Simba]

Where's the scriptures? Cause I've never heard of that before.

I have noted verses most commonly referred to when arguing for (and against) reincarnation in the Bible in the Transmigration thread.

[sweetangel2128]

I have noted verses most commonly referred to when arguing for (and against) reincarnation in the Bible in the Transmigration thread.

I just read part of the article, sorry I am trying to hurry cause dinners almost ready anyways I read part of the article and it doesn't say that reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible but that it is quite the opposite. Heres the verses that proves that:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27). <---no reincarnation.

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8) <---no reincarnation.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41) <---no reincarnation.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46) <---no reincarnation.

When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10) <---no reincarnation.

Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21) <---no reincarnation.

But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12) <---no reincarnation.

A verse that kinda makes people think reincarnation is possible is this verse:

'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.' Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. (Job 33:28-30)

But the thing is, that is the only one I've found pointing towards reincarnation, every other verse I've posted says reincarnation doesn't happen because you are ONLY given one chance. I think there is other meanings to this other scripture, I'll have to ask my friend Jess to ask her pastor about it, maybe he can explain it to me. I'm actually attending a Bible study tomorrow night so I might bring it up then.

Note: I looked up that verse in Job that sounds like reincarnation in the New Living Translation version, heres what it says:

Job 33:28-33.
God rescued me from the grave, and now my life is filled with light. Yes, God often does these things for people. He rescues them from the grave so they may live in the light of living. Mark this well, Job, Listen to me, and let me say more. But if you have anything to say, go ahead. I want to hear it, for I am anxious to see you justified. But if not, then listen to me. Keep silent and I will teach you wisdom.

Basically, what I get out of this verse is that God sometimes pulls us away from the pit/hell/the storm. So, if you are on the verge of death lets say a car accident happend and you almost die. God rescues from that pit that grave to give you another chance to live again but to live a better life with him in it. This is not reincarnation but just God pulling you out of the storm and giving you another chance but in the same body you were born into.