The Problem of Evil, Another Theological Problem Options

[Simba]

The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.

1. God exists. (premise)
2. God is omnipotent. (premise - or true by definition of the word 'God')
3. God is all-benevolent. (premise - or true by definition)
4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. (premise - or true by definition)
5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. (premise)
6. God is opposed to all evil. (conclusion from 3 and 4)
7. God can eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 2)

1. Whatever the end result of suffering is, God can bring it about by ways which do not include suffering. (conclusion from 2)
2. God has no reason not to eliminate evil. (conclusion from 7.1)
3. God has no reason not to act immediately. (conclusion from 5)

8. God will eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 6, 7.2 and 7.3)
9. Evil exists, has existed, and probably will always exist. (premise)
10. Items 8 and 9 are contradictory; therefore, one or more of the premises is false: either God does not exist, or he is not both omnipotent and all-benevolent or there is a reason why He does not act immediately.

On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.

1. Free will requires the potential to so anything one chooses. (premise, or by definition)
2. Thus, free will requires the potential to do evil.
3. Thus, removing the potential to do evil would remove free will.

Discuss.

[Simba]

Well, alright. To start off with, I'd like to note that my explanation is backed up not by the Bible, but by the Bhagavad-Gita. I, specifically, refer to Bhagavad Gita As It Is, written by A. C. Bhaktivedata Swami Prabhupada who is uniquely, and completely qualified to present the Bhagavad-Gita without adulteration (hence, "As It Is").

Now first, in order to understand this explanation, one must accept the realities of the Supreme Being, material nature, eternity, karma and reincarnation, and that you are not the body, but the eternal spirit. Many unenlightened peoples identify the self as the material body, and that their function is to be the enjoyer, and that the purpose of life is to find enjoyment in the material world. In reality, a person's natural function is to unconditionally love and serve God.

With the idea of being the enjoyer, people become really frustrated when reality hits them with death, disease, etcetera, and suffering becomes "evil." In human perspective, "evil" is suffering and suffering is "evil."

The material world has been created for spirits who are envious of the Lord. The material world is created as a place of pleasure, as well as suffering. The reasoning behind this is to allow the individual spirits the freedom to pursue their desire to be the enjoyer, and at the same time, teach the spirits that the role of enjoyer does not lead to absolute happiness and satisfaction.

God let's us pursue the role of enjoyer, but out of His grace, He has also placed "reminders" that real happiness and satisfaction and our real homes are not in this material world, but elsewhere. To humans, these "reminders" are known as suffering, including birth, death, aging, disease, etcetera. So really, suffering shouldn't be thought of as "evil," but rather be thought of rather positively.

Often, an intelligent person who is continually being punched in the face wants to go out and seek why it is that he is constantly being punched in the face in order to stop being punched in the face. People in this world are continually suffering, and some never go out and find out why. The intelligent person would want to go out and find out why he continues to suffer.

In order to stop suffering, one must get off the cycle of birth and death which is known as reincarnation. Reincarnation is not perpetual (a misunderstanding often made); one gets off of the cycle of reincarnation by achieving God consciousness (which may not be as easy as it may sound at the moment).

Ultimately, suffering shouldn't be seen as "evil," as it is natural in this material world. What's unnatural the spirit's being here in this material world.


I'm assuming there's going to be questions (since these concepts are not commonly known in the western world) and rebuttals against that whole explanation; go ahead, I'll reply. Oh yeah, and I guess I better establish this now that I do not follow and formal, organized religion. (This would include Hindu.)

[*Uronacid*]

Well, alright. To start off with, I'd like to note that my explanation is backed up not by the Bible, but by the Bhagavad-Gita. I, specifically, refer to Bhagavad Gita As It Is, written by A. C. Bhaktivedata Swami Prabhupada who is uniquely, and completely qualified to present the Bhagavad-Gita without adulteration (hence, "As It Is").

Now first, in order to understand this explanation, one must accept the realities of the Supreme Being, material nature, eternity, karma and reincarnation, and that you are not the body, but the eternal spirit. Many unenlightened peoples identify the self as the material body, and that their function is to be the enjoyer, and that the purpose of life is to find enjoyment in the material world. In reality, a person's natural function is to unconditionally love and serve God.

With the idea of being the enjoyer, people become really frustrated when reality hits them with death, disease, etcetera, and suffering becomes "evil." In human perspective, "evil" is suffering and suffering is "evil."

The material world has been created for spirits who are envious of the Lord. The material world is created as a place of pleasure, as well as suffering. The reasoning behind this is to allow the individual spirits the freedom to pursue their desire to be the enjoyer, and at the same time, teach the spirits that the role of enjoyer does not lead to absolute happiness and satisfaction.

God let's us pursue the role of enjoyer, but out of His grace, He has also placed "reminders" that real happiness and satisfaction and our real homes are not in this material world, but elsewhere. To humans, these "reminders" are known as suffering, including birth, death, aging, disease, etcetera. So really, suffering shouldn't be thought of as "evil," but rather be thought of rather positively.

Often, an intelligent person who is continually being punched in the face wants to go out and seek why it is that he is constantly being punched in the face in order to stop being punched in the face. People in this world are continually suffering, and some never go out and find out why. The intelligent person would want to go out and find out why he continues to suffer.

In order to stop suffering, one must get off the cycle of birth and death which is known as reincarnation. Reincarnation is not perpetual (a misunderstanding often made); one gets off of the cycle of reincarnation by achieving God consciousness (which may not be as easy as it may sound at the moment).

Ultimately, suffering shouldn't be seen as "evil," as it is natural in this material world. What's unnatural the spirit's being here in this material world.
I'm assuming there's going to be questions (since these concepts are not commonly known in the western world) and rebuttals against that whole explanation; go ahead, I'll reply. Oh yeah, and I guess I better establish this now that I do not follow and formal, organized religion. (This would include Hindu.)

I really like what you have said here, "Suffering is not evil. It's a reminder of the role that will lead to true happiness."

One thing I'm confused about is your reference to "reincarnation". I guess I'm used to seeing the word when people refer to other religions. I think your referring to the spiritual rebirth associated with being "born again". I guess I'm not sure... >.<

P.S. I'm sorry I haven't replied... I'm still thinking. Thoughts as complicated as the one I was having are really hard to organize. I will reply and include the first reply in my second reply so that people aren't confused.

[Simba]

I really like what you have said here, "Suffering is not evil. It's a reminder of the role that will lead to true happiness."

One thing I'm confused about is your reference to "reincarnation". I guess I'm used to seeing the word when people refer to other religions. I think your referring to the spiritual rebirth associated with being "born again". I guess I'm not sure... >.<

Right, I should have probably been more informative on the part about reincarnation since I guess not too many people around here know too much about it.

When most people hear reincarnation, they usually think of a never ending process of birth and rebirth, which is in fact not the whole story. One is only on the "wheel" of reincarnation, so to speak, while he lives a materialistic life, whether it be positively or negatively (good or bad karma). As long as one lives a materialistic life, he will always reincarnate. One gets off the wheel of reincarnation by becoming God conscious and participating in purified actions, becoming unattached to material.

What reincarnation (and karma) have to do with solving the problem of evil is that it gives logic in the suffering, rather than, when thinking without the concept of reincarnation and karma where suffering appears to be completely random. It gives reason to why people are born where they were and by what conditions. It gives reason to why someone was born in an oppressed society, born with a birth defect, or born in the body of a dog. Id est, because of the actions (karma) a being had done in their previous bodies.

We continue to go through this process of birth, death, and rebirth (suffering), because of our materialistic desires, and until we figure out that absolute satisfaction cannot be attained in this material world, we will continue to reincarnate. And once we are enlightened of the Truths, our purpose, and let go of material desire, only then will we stop reincarnating.

[*Uronacid*]

Right, I should have probably been more informative on the part about reincarnation since I guess not too many people around here know too much about it.

When most people hear reincarnation, they usually think of a never ending process of birth and rebirth, which is in fact not the whole story. One is only on the "wheel" of reincarnation, so to speak, while he lives a materialistic life, whether it be positively or negatively (good or bad karma). As long as one lives a materialistic life, he will always reincarnate. One gets off the wheel of reincarnation by becoming God conscious and participating in purified actions, becoming unattached to material.

What reincarnation (and karma) have to do with solving the problem of evil is that it gives logic in the suffering, rather than, when thinking without the concept of reincarnation and karma where suffering appears to be completely random. It gives reason to why people are born where they were and by what conditions. It gives reason to why someone was born in an oppressed society, born with a birth defect, or born in the body of a dog. Id est, because of the actions (karma) a being had done in their previous bodies.

We continue to go through this process of birth, death, and rebirth (suffering), because of our materialistic desires, and until we figure out that absolute satisfaction cannot be attained in this material world, we will continue to reincarnate. And once we are enlightened of the Truths, our purpose, and let go of material desire, only then will we stop reincarnating.

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

[Simba]

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

No, I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any other organized religion.

My knowledge of reincarnation doesn't really come from the Bible (as, evidentaly, reincarnation isn't very significant in the Bible), though, reincarnation in the Bible has been discussed in the Transmigration topic. The solution I provided for the problem of evil is backed up by the Bhagavad-Gita.

[sweetangel2128]

No, I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any other organized religion.

My knowledge of reincarnation doesn't really come from the Bible (as, evidentaly, reincarnation isn't very significant in the Bible), though, reincarnation in the Bible has been discussed in the Transmigration topic. The solution I provided for the problem of evil is backed up by the Bhagavad-Gita.

Yeah true, the word itself isn't in the Bible but the idea is. Obviously since Jesus was God in the flesh Jesus would be the incarnation of God. At least that's what we would have to assume.

[Simba]

Yeah true, the word itself isn't in the Bible but the idea is. Obviously since Jesus was God in the flesh Jesus would be the incarnation of God. At least that's what we would have to assume.

Well... God's incarnating into Jesus is almost irrelevant when talking about reincarnation.

Reincarnation =/= incarnation. God incarnating is not the same thing as when we go through death and are born again in a new body. God incarnates at will; we have to incarnate (as long as material desire exists).

[sweetangel2128]

Well... God's incarnating into Jesus is almost irrelevant when talking about reincarnation.

Reincarnation =/= incarnation. God incarnating is not the same thing as when we go through death and are born again in a new body. God incarnates at will; we have to incarnate (as long as material desire exists).

True however, if that's the case then incarnation wouldn't exist in Biblical terms however if you think about it Jesus was born young, he was the incarnation of God but after he died he rose from his grave so wouldn't that sorta be like re-incarnation? or no?

Ps: sorry I keep puting incarnation...I meant re-incarnation lol.