Transmigration, Also known as: Reincarnation Options

[Simba]

The last previous reincarnation thread has grown a little old, and I'd like to see some fresh input on subject.

Some points I'd like to see hit:

• Whether reincarnation even exists or not
• The who, the what, the how, and the whys of reincarnation
• How the idea automatically requires that we are an eternal soul and not the bodies
• Karmic reaction
• Transmigrating from a human to an animal, and vice versa
• When the reincarnation cycle will end
• Clinical death and children recalling their pasts
• Heaven and Hell and reincarnation
• Reincarnation in Christianity and other religions

Though, perhaps not all at once. And that's probably not all of them either, just the ones that I could think of off the top of my head.

[Simba]

Hmmm, not sure on this topic but you mentioned Chrisitianity and reincarnation so I'll respond with that one. I never really believed in reincarnation even before I was a Christian, I always believed in God. I believe that after you die you go 2 places, Heaven or Hell, nowhere else...yes demons are on earth and so are certain angels, but really after you die, theres only 2 places you could go.

Well, since you're Christian, I'm assuming you follow the Bible.

Reincarnation in the Bible:
Jesus asks:

"Who do the people say I am?" They, answering, said "John the Baptist; but some say Elias, and others say that one of the old prophets is risen again."
-- Luke 9:18-19

This is saying that Jesus could have been existent as another person during another time. Possible through reincarnation, of course.


Jesus also directly mentions reincarnation when he tells John the Baptist that he was a reincarnation of Elias:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But first I say unto you that Elias has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they wanted. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.
-- Matthew 17:11-13

This would be Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the same person who once appeared as Elias, but this time appearing with a different name and a different body.

Thus, reincarnation was accepted by even Jesus.

[sweetangel2128]

Well, since you're Christian, I'm assuming you follow the Bible.

Reincarnation in the Bible:
Jesus asks:

"Who do the people say I am?" They, answering, said "John the Baptist; but some say Elias, and others say that one of the old prophets is risen again."
-- Luke 9:18-19

This is saying that Jesus could have been existent as another person during another time. Possible through reincarnation, of course.
Jesus also directly mentions reincarnation when he tells John the Baptist that he was a reincarnation of Elias:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But first I say unto you that Elias has come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they wanted. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them." Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist.
-- Matthew 17:11-13

This would be Jesus saying that John the Baptist was the same person who once appeared as Elias, but this time appearing with a different name and a different body.

Thus, reincarnation was accepted by even Jesus.

No, that is not reincarnation.

[Kontroll]

No, that is not reincarnation.

Why is it not reincarnation? Back up your answers. Seriously. It's a debate forum.

[sweetangel2128]

Why is it not reincarnation? Back up your answers. Seriously. It's a debate forum.

It may look like reincarnation to an unbeliever, but to a believer it isn't because Jesus is in fact God in the flesh, it's not reincarnation. When I think of recincarnation I think of someone dying and then coming back as a bird or something. God never died.

[Simba]

Indeed.

Oh, I just found an interesting article. Enjoy.
Bible against Reincarnation
- - -
And in as much as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

So, what I have to say to you is that before reading the verse and submitting as possible evidence...look at it closer. The Bible is filled with things that aren't always so obvious. You have to look at the original translations alot of the times to understand the actual meaning of what that verse is saying. Also, another thing is to not take it out of context. This verse might not be, but it would be a good idea to bring in other verses before or after if they tie in with that specific one.

Here's the site I got this from. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/reincarnation.html

Righto. Well, don't get me wrong, it's not like I haven't looked at Bible verses that actually go against reincarnation as well. Reincarnation in the actual Bible is definitely open for debate. Hebrews 9:27 particularly I have read before, though one who would be for reincarnation would simply dismiss that verse because of the debate over the authorship of the book of Hebrews.

I, myself, however would still not say that single verse eliminates reincarnation from the Bible since it is talking about man and in reincarnation, an individual being is not a man but an eternal soul. As for the judgment bit, well, how about that karma, eh.

Here's a list of verses that are for reincarnation:

• John 9:2
• Jeremiah 1:4–5
• Matthew 5:25–26
• Matthew 11:14–15
• Matthew 11:25–26
• Matthew 17:11–13
• Matthew 26:52
• Mark 9:11–13
• Luke 1:17
• John 3:1–10
• John 9:1–3
• Galatians 6:7

And verses that are against reincarnation (or karma):

• Hebrews 9:27
• Luke 13
• Psalm 78:39
• Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 &10

Those are the most common verses I've seen when discussion reincarnation in the Bible, so if you want to talk about Bible verses, those would be the ones to hit.

Ultimately, however, it is clear that the authors of the Bible had no real intentions of teaching about reincarnation. Nor do we even know for sure that the Bible is inerrant, or even complete. Because wasn't it that during the compilation of the Bible, the people chose what to include and what not to include? And what about those many years of Christ that were left out of the Bible. (Yeah, I have read that verse where it says that that would make the Bible extremely long.)

It could have been that people just picked and chose what they wanted to be taught from the Bible. Though, reincarnation actually was indeed taught in Christianity by Origen, known as one of the Fathers of the early Christian church. Though, I heard that Origen was then cursed by the church and no one was ever to read his books "or else they would go to hell."

It may look like reincarnation to an unbeliever, but to a believer it isn't because Jesus is in fact God in the flesh, it's not reincarnation. When I think of recincarnation I think of someone dying and then coming back as a bird or something. God never died.

The verses I mentioned were talking about John the Baptist being Elias reincarnated, not Jesus.

Jesus is an incarnation of God, sure.

[Kim3rz]

Here's a list of verses that are for reincarnation:

• John 9:2
• Jeremiah 1:4–5
• Matthew 5:25–26
• Matthew 11:14–15
• Matthew 11:25–26
• Matthew 17:11–13
• Matthew 26:52
• Mark 9:11–13
• Luke 1:17
• John 3:1–10
• John 9:1–3
• Galatians 6:7

And verses that are against reincarnation (or karma):

• Hebrews 9:27
• Luke 13
• Psalm 78:39
• Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 &10

Those are the most common verses I've seen when discussion reincarnation in the Bible, so if you want to talk about Bible verses, those would be the ones to hit.

Ultimately, however, it is clear that the authors of the Bible had no real intentions of teaching about reincarnation. Nor do we even know for sure that the Bible is inerrant, or even complete. Because wasn't it that during the compilation of the Bible, the people chose what to include and what not to include? And what about those many years of Christ that were left out of the Bible. (Yeah, I have read that verse where it says that that would make the Bible extremely long.)

It could have been that people just picked and chose what they wanted to be taught from the Bible. Though, reincarnation actually was indeed taught in Christianity by Origen, known as one of the Fathers of the early Christian church. Though, I heard that Origen was then cursed by the church and no one was ever to read his books "or else they would go to hell."
The verses I mentioned were talking about John the Baptist being Elias reincarnated, not Jesus.

Jesus is an incarnation of God, sure.

So. . . in a way, is the Bible being contradictory with itself? Because I think if I were to read something about reincarnation being possible in the Bible and then it turns around and says that it isn't, that's a little confusing isn't it?

Especially for people who want to believe that reincarnation is possible, so which statements in the Bible are they to believe?

I mean, obviously there can't be a gray area; either there's such thing as reincarnation or not.

[Simba]

So. . . in a way, is the Bible being contradictory with itself? Because I think if I were to read something about reincarnation being possible in the Bible and then it turns around and says that it isn't, that's a little confusing isn't it?

Especially for people who want to believe that reincarnation is possible, so which statements in the Bible are they to believe?

I mean, obviously there can't be a gray area; either there's such thing as reincarnation or not.

Well, this is when Bible interpretation and Bible inerrancy is concerned.

The Bible is at least not directly contradicting itself since the Bible can be interpreted in different ways. Obviously, a person who's looking to find reincarnation in the Bible and a person who looking for contradictions of reincarnation in the Bible are going to interpret the verses differently.

As for Bible inerrancy, it is also possible that someone just plain didn't want reincarnation being taught from the Bible. Reincarnation was in fact once taught by one of the fathers of Christianity, Origen...

Regarding reincarnation in Christianity, a Catholic priest once said that that reincarnation was removed from Christian teachings because, at the time, it was feared that people might start getting the wrong idea that the material world was created for our enjoyment, and that people would discontinue serious religious practices. Which, sure, made sense at the time.

And ultimately, for people who want to know if reincarnation is possible and how it works, the Bible would clearly not be reliable for this. However, in other scriptures (more or less reliable than the Bible), this "gray area" is eliminated.