The Trinity Options

[Kontroll]

All Christians agree on each of hte basic propositions that form the foundation for Trinitarianism, though Christians sometimes disagree on (1) how to explain the relationships between these basic statements and (2) what other biblical teachings might be added to the basic list to fill out the doctrine of the Trinity. This implies that all branches of the Church are unified in their basic confession of the Trinity so that whatever variations exist do not undermind the confession of trinitarian faith. It means that Christians are united in theirview of who God is. The Church is one. It also means that whoever does not afree with these basic biblical foundations for the trinitarian faith is, by definition, not a Christian.
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Before starting these basic propositions, it is important to say a few words about the often-noted fact that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. Christians ask or are askedwhy, if the word is not in the Bible, do they use it? The answer is simple and has nothing to do with some conspiracy to add something to the Bible that really is not there. The word Trinity is used for theological and practical convenience -- it is 'theologicalshorthand,' a single word that sums up a series of biblical teachings. Instead of repeating the whole series of every time we speak of God, we substitute a single word that summarizes the truth. What, then, are these basic biblical propositions? The basic truth, wich all Christians afree upon, can be expressed in five propositions.

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for the one God.

Analogy: Crystals of salt that appear on the beach after the tide has receded may be the most apparent proof that the sea is saltwater, but every bucket of water drawn from the ocean testifies clearly to the fact.

REFERENCES:
- - -
1. There is one God. (Deut. 6:4; I Sam. 2:2; 2Kgs. 19:15; Is. 37:16; 44:8; Mk. 12:28-24; I Cor. 8:4-6; I Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19). That the Bible teaches this proposition is not disputed.

2. The Father is God. (Rom. 1:7; I Cor. 1:3; 8:6 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 4:6; Phil. 4:20). Again, this proposition is seldom disputed.
3. The Son is God. Because this proposition is frequently denied, I give a fuller statement of evidence, but still only scratches the surface.
a. The Son is called God. ( Jn. 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 1:8).
b. The Son is given divine names. (Jn. 1:1, 18; Acts 5:31; I Cor. 2:8; Jas. 2:1; Rev. 1:8, 21:6; 22:13).
c. The Son has divine attributes.
i. Eternity. (Jn. 1:2; 8:58; 17:5; Rev. 1:8, 17; 22:13).
ii. Immutability. (Heb. 1:11, 12; 13:8).
iii. Omnipresence. (Jn. 3:13; Mt. 18:20; 28:20).
iv. Omniscience. (Mt. 11:27; Jn. 2:23-25; 21:17; Rev. 2:23).
v. Omnipotence. (Jn. 5:17; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 1:8; 11:17).
d. The Son does divine works.
i. Creation. (Jn. 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16-17)
ii. Salvation. (Acts 4:12; 2 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 5:9).
iii. Judgment. (Jn. 5:22; 2 Cor. 5:10; Mt. 25:31-32).
e. The Son is worshipped as God. (Jn. 5:22-23; 20:28; I Cor. 1:2; Phil. 2:9-10; Heb. 1:6).
4. The Spirit is God. Those whose accept the biblical evidence for the deity of the Son seldom have trouble understanding the evidence for the deity of the Spirit.
a. The Spirit is called God. (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17).
b. The Spirit is given divine names. (Mt. 12:28).
c. The Spirit has divine attributes. (I Cor. 2:13-14; Gal. 5:22; I Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7; 9:14; I Jn. 5:6-7).
d. The Spirit does divine works. (Jn. 6:33; 14:17, 26; 16:13; Acts 1:8; 2:17-18; 16:6; Rom. 8:26; 15:19; I Cor. 12:7-11).
e. The Spirit is worshipped as God. (Mt. 12:32).
5. The Father, Son and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for one God.
a. The Son prays to the Father. (Jn. 11:41-42; 17; Mt. 26:39 ff)
b. The Father speaks to the Son. (Jn. 12:27-28).
c. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another. (Mt. 3:16-17).
d. The Father sends the Son and Spirit, and the Son sends the Spirit. (Jn. 3:17; 4:34; 5:30; 6:39; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7)
e. The Father and Son love one another. (Jn. 3:35; 5:20; 10:17; 14:31; 15:9-10; 17:24).

The Trinity and Logic
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Though it is clearly the teaching of the Bible, cultic groups and atheists often complain that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a contradiction. How can there be one God and at the same time three who are called God? Christians seem to be saying that 1+1+1=1. This is simply bad arithmetic, we are told, not profound theology. The fact is, however, that the doctrine of the Trinity neither involves nor implies a contradiction. How, then, does a Christian explain that God is both one and three at the same time? The answer, in part, is that He is not one in precisely the same way that He is three. Trinitarianism would be a contradiction if it affirmed that God is one and three in precisely the same sense, but no one in the history of the Church has ever taught such a view. All the same, this is only a partial
answer.

There is a very great difference between something being a demonstrated contradiction and something being incomprehensible.

All words besides biblical references from Trinity & Reality An Introduction to the Christian Faith by Ralph A. Smith.

Yes, Heath21. This is this book that I want you to pick up.

Into the discussion I will go deeper into thought and show you what the Trinity is comprised of, and show the logic behind it.

[Kontroll]

The term Trinity is not in the Bible, and we have heard you the first time.

The term Trinity is only used to describe God's attributes. Instead of saying that:

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for the one God.

That's all the Trinity means.

God is only different in His personhoods not His being. There are three personhoods. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit. They are distinguishable personhoods within one God. It's littered all over the New Testament. I've put over fifty references that prove this.

Now, what you have to determine is...

What defines a personhood? Is it a literal person, or an office? Well, considering we have a Triune God who is one, it could not possible mean that there are three people because that would mean that we would have a Polytheistic faith. Considering Christianity falls under a monotheistic faith, something must tell us that God is one.

We both agree that God is one being. True? What you don't believe is that God holds different offices within the Trinity.

Christianity, all of it, believes we have one God. But a monadic God is a wrong belief. Without the Trinity there would be no love, no covenants, no relationships...just solitude among the many.

[sweetangel2128]

The term Trinity is not in the Bible, and we have heard you the first time.

Here's why it is wrong:

The trinity is a MANMADE concept. Absolutely NO biblical basis.

It violates the following 3 verses.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (New International Version)

2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (New International Version)

32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.


Proverbs 30:6 (New International Version)

6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

So, by the verses I have given you it is saying to not add to his bible (his word) or take things out of it or you'll be punished. By believing the trinity you are adding to his word because the trinity is not biblical.

[Kontroll]

Here's why it is wrong:

The trinity is a MANMADE concept. Absolutely NO biblical basis.

It violates the following 3 verses.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (New International Version)

2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (New International Version)

32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30:6 (New International Version)

6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

So, by the verses I have given you it is saying to not add to his bible (his word) or take things out of it or you'll be punished. By believing the trinity you are adding to his word because the trinity is not biblical.

Ha ha. I'm not adding Trinity to the Bible. Like I said....It's BIBLICAL SHORTHAND! What about that don't you understand?!?!?!?!

You said not too long ago that you believe that God created the world and evolution took over after that creating new species. What about that is correct according to your logic that nothing should be added or taken from the Bible?

And when it states that nothing should be added or taken away, it's talking about chapters and books in whole. For instance, the Catholic Bible has extra books added to it.

And also, the New Internation Version is very unreliable. The King James version is the best because you can study it. Find literal translations in Hebrew and Greek from it, unlike the New Internation Version. I recommend you picking one up, or if you have one, start reading that. It's not that hard to understand.

John 11:41 - Jesus speaks to the Father.
Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

Matthew 3:16-17 - The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another.

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So according to Matthew 3:17, if Jesus is God, then who is speaking from Heaven? Clearly not God if God is one person.

[sweetangel2128]

Ha ha. I'm not adding Trinity to the Bible. Like I said....It's BIBLICAL SHORTHAND! What about that don't you understand?!?!?!?!

You said not too long ago that you believe that God created the world and evolution took over after that creating new species. What about that is correct according to your logic that nothing should be added or taken from the Bible?

And when it states that nothing should be added or taken away, it's talking about chapters and books in whole. For instance, the Catholic Bible has extra books added to it.

And also, the New Internation Version is very unreliable. The King James version is the best because you can study it. Find literal translations in Hebrew and Greek from it, unlike the New Internation Version. I recommend you picking one up, or if you have one, start reading that. It's not that hard to understand.

John 11:41 - Jesus speaks to the Father.
Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

Matthew 3:16-17 - The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another.

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So according to Matthew 3:17, if Jesus is God, then who is speaking from Heaven? Clearly not God if God is one person.

Yes, you ARE adding the Trinity to the Bible since it's not in the Bible therefore your adding to God's word. When he said that he didn't just mean "adding books" but "adding" anything in GENERAL. If it's not in the Bible and your adding it, it's adding to his word. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but it's true.

Evolution in the sense I was talking is the creation of species over generations (meaning over time), I don't know if it talks about that type of Evolution in the Bible but we know it's fact because it's all around us and has happend but the Trinity is totally different and you cannot compare the two.

As for the New International version, it is just as reliable as the King James Version, it is easier to understand because it is in our "terms" to help us better understand it. I have both the New International version and the King James version. I guess I'll have to repeat the verses I gave you only using the King James version, as you can see theres not much of a difference:

Deuteronomy 4:2 (King James version):
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (King James version):
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:6 (King James version):
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thu be found a liar.

So, as you can see the verses in both Bibles are VERY clear on what they trying to say.

Now, heres your verses you gave me coming from the King James version:

John 11:41 (King James version):
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me.

"He was thanking his spirit for hearing him, afterall he is God in the flesh".

Matthew 3:16-17 (King James version):
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

"God can be in 2 or 3 places at once, you cannot Question his powers because they are not of this world. In this verse he is telling HIS creation how to get to Heaven so that all can be saved."

As I have stated to you many times and even have given you verses proving it, Jesus is God, the Bible clearly states this. Let me give you those verses again only this time in the King James version of the Bible. Here ya go:

John 1:1-5 (King James version):
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(As you can see the verse states that the Word is God and that he created everything. It also states that he was in fact Jesus by saying "In him was life; and the life was the light of men, Jesus was the light, the light is God").

John 1:10-14 (King James version):
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not, He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(This verse tells us that the Word=God came to the world in the "flesh" as Jesus..meaning Jesus is God.)

Ps: It's VERY easy to understand. Just read both verses CAREFULLY. And the verses you have given me clearly state NOTHING absolutely NOTHING about the Trinity. I looked up the verses myself.

[Kontroll]

Yes, you ARE adding the Trinity to the Bible since it's not in the Bible therefore your adding to God's word. When he said that he didn't just mean "adding books" but "adding" anything in GENERAL. If it's not in the Bible and your adding it, it's adding to his word. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but it's true.

Evolution in the sense I was talking is the creation of species over generations (meaning over time), I don't know if it talks about that type of Evolution in the Bible but we know it's fact because it's all around us and has happend but the Trinity is totally different and you cannot compare the two.

As for the New International version, it is just as reliable as the King James Version, it is easier to understand because it is in our "terms" to help us better understand it. I have both the New International version and the King James version. I guess I'll have to repeat the verses I gave you only using the King James version, as you can see theres not much of a difference:

Deuteronomy 4:2 (King James version):
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (King James version):
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:6 (King James version):
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thu be found a liar.

So, as you can see the verses in both Bibles are VERY clear on what they trying to say.

Now, heres your verses you gave me coming from the King James version:

John 11:41 (King James version):
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me.

"He was thanking his spirit for hearing him, afterall he is God in the flesh".

Matthew 3:16-17 (King James version):
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

"God can be in 2 or 3 places at once, you cannot Question his powers because they are not of this world. In this verse he is telling HIS creation how to get to Heaven so that all can be saved."

As I have stated to you many times and even have given you verses proving it, Jesus is God, the Bible clearly states this. Let me give you those verses again only this time in the King James version of the Bible. Here ya go:

John 1:1-5 (King James version):
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(As you can see the verse states that the Word is God and that he created everything. It also states that he was in fact Jesus by saying "In him was life; and the life was the light of men, Jesus was the light, the light is God").

John 1:10-14 (King James version):
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not, He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(This verse tells us that the Word=God came to the world in the "flesh" as Jesus..meaning Jesus is God.)

Ps: It's VERY easy to understand. Just read both verses CAREFULLY. And the verses you have given me clearly state NOTHING absolutely NOTHING about the Trinity. I looked up the verses myself.

Oh, my God, you really aren't realizing that the term trinity is not substituted for anything in the Bible. It's just a word that theologians use to describe God's attributes. That's it.

I know what you meant earlier about not adding anything. But, did you even bother to read the passages I showed you?

You really are getting on my nerves because this is either completely going over your head, or you're just down right denying it.

Duet. 6:4 - One God
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Rom. 1:7 - The Father is God
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tit. 2:13 - Jesus is God
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Cor. 3:17 - The Holy Spirit is God
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

All three are God.

You can't argue with the Bible. There's no where in the Bible that says that God is one being.

[sweetangel2128]

Oh, my God, you really aren't realizing that the term trinity is not substituted for anything in the Bible. It's just a word that theologians use to describe God's attributes. That's it.

I know what you meant earlier about not adding anything. But, did you even bother to read the passages I showed you?

You really are getting on my nerves because this is either completely going over your head, or you're just down right denying it.

Duet. 6:4 - One God
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Rom. 1:7 - The Father is God
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tit. 2:13 - Jesus is God
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Cor. 3:17 - The Holy Spirit is God
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

All three are God.

You can't argue with the Bible. There's no where in the Bible that says that God is one being.

I read them quite well obviously since I listed the same verses you did from the King James version. Exactly my point...if it's not in the Bible and your preaching it as being true, your adding to it. If the trinity were in fact God's word, it would be in the Bible but it isn't. The things you listed yes are very true and I do not deny those but those are not the trinity. As I have said a million times...the trinity believes that God is three "persons" which is why it is false because God is one being and has clearly stated that in the Bible you are just not reading it right.

When the Bible describes God do they say "them" no they don't..they say "Him" therefore there is ONLY one being.

It's called denying it because it's not the word of God, you should be denying it too.

[Kontroll]

I read them quite well obviously since I listed the same verses you did from the King James version. Exactly my point...if it's not in the Bible and your preaching it as being true, your adding to it. If the trinity were in fact God's word, it would be in the Bible but it isn't. The things you listed yes are very true and I do not deny those but those are not the trinity. As I have said a million times...the trinity believes that God is three "persons" which is why it is false because God is one being and has clearly stated that in the Bible you are just not reading it right.

When the Bible describes God do they say "them" no they don't..they say "Him" therefore there is ONLY one being.

It's called denying it because it's not the word of God, you should be denying it too.

Again, you're wrong. I'm sorry, I just found the verse that disproves that the Bible only refers to God in the singular.

Gen 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now, there's absolutely no way you can interpret that differently, because you said that the Bible is clear in its meaning. This verse alone proves that there is a distinct characteristic to our God. He is not only one being, but three personhoods in one.

[sweetangel2128]

Again, you're wrong. I'm sorry, I just found the verse that disproves that the Bible only refers to God in the singular.

Gen 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now, there's absolutely no way you can interpret that differently, because you said that the Bible is clear in its meaning. This verse alone proves that there is a distinct characteristic to our God. He is not only one being, but three personhoods in one.

True. I'll have to answer that one tomorrow since I have to get up early and need sleep and can't think straight. But read verse 27 in that same chapter.

Gen 1:27.
So God created human beings in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

It is claiming in that verse that there is one being.

[Kontroll]

True. I'll have to answer that one tomorrow since I have to get up early and need sleep and can't think straight. But read verse 27 in that same chapter.

Gen 1:27.
So God created human beings in [b]his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

It is claiming in that verse that there is one being.

So, then the Bible would have a contradiction. But, as you know the Bible doesn't contradict itself because it is the inspired word of God who is infallible.

How can you ignore what I just told you? The Bible clearly states that God said 'Let us make man in our image.' Seriously, if you're going to deny that, then I'm done. You're just too stubborn to even talk to. I'm giving you Biblical scripture that proves God's triune characteristic and you're just denying it. Biblical evidence, none the less. What kind of Christian does that make you if you're denying the Bible? It makes you inconsistent.

If God didn't feel that it was important it wouldn't be in the Bible.

So, it's just up to you to accept the truth.

2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. [Notice the source of blessing has 'expanded' to a trinitarian source!]

Rom 1.7 (and 2 Cor 1.2, 1 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.2, Phil 1.2): Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Notice the double source of grace/peace)

Eph 6.23: Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Notice: dual source)

2 Cor 1.3-4: Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort (Note: single-source, the Father)

Gal 1.3: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Notice: dual-source)

The baptismal "formula"--Mt 28.19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Notice: this is an explicit statement of three-in-one: it is ONE 'Name', but THREE agents! This linking of the Son with the divine names of God and Holy Spirit is quite a statement!)

Faithful saying -- Tit 3.4-7: But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. (Notice: this saying is VERY trinitarian--with all three agents playing separate roles in the redemptive process--with echoes of John 14-17! Notice also that 'God our Savior' and 'Jesus Christ our Savior' are in this passage together, and that the Holy Spirit is responsible for our renewal.)

Also, as to your argument... Gen. 1:27 is only referring to God in the singular tense. The Bible tends to vary on the plurality and singularity of God. But if it mentions that God a plural being then it must be so. Even if the Bible states that man was created in His image.