The Trinity Options

[Kontroll]

All Christians agree on each of hte basic propositions that form the foundation for Trinitarianism, though Christians sometimes disagree on (1) how to explain the relationships between these basic statements and (2) what other biblical teachings might be added to the basic list to fill out the doctrine of the Trinity. This implies that all branches of the Church are unified in their basic confession of the Trinity so that whatever variations exist do not undermind the confession of trinitarian faith. It means that Christians are united in theirview of who God is. The Church is one. It also means that whoever does not afree with these basic biblical foundations for the trinitarian faith is, by definition, not a Christian.
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Before starting these basic propositions, it is important to say a few words about the often-noted fact that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. Christians ask or are askedwhy, if the word is not in the Bible, do they use it? The answer is simple and has nothing to do with some conspiracy to add something to the Bible that really is not there. The word Trinity is used for theological and practical convenience -- it is 'theologicalshorthand,' a single word that sums up a series of biblical teachings. Instead of repeating the whole series of every time we speak of God, we substitute a single word that summarizes the truth. What, then, are these basic biblical propositions? The basic truth, wich all Christians afree upon, can be expressed in five propositions.

1. There is one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for the one God.

Analogy: Crystals of salt that appear on the beach after the tide has receded may be the most apparent proof that the sea is saltwater, but every bucket of water drawn from the ocean testifies clearly to the fact.

REFERENCES:
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1. There is one God. (Deut. 6:4; I Sam. 2:2; 2Kgs. 19:15; Is. 37:16; 44:8; Mk. 12:28-24; I Cor. 8:4-6; I Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19). That the Bible teaches this proposition is not disputed.

2. The Father is God. (Rom. 1:7; I Cor. 1:3; 8:6 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 4:6; Phil. 4:20). Again, this proposition is seldom disputed.
3. The Son is God. Because this proposition is frequently denied, I give a fuller statement of evidence, but still only scratches the surface.
a. The Son is called God. ( Jn. 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 1:8).
b. The Son is given divine names. (Jn. 1:1, 18; Acts 5:31; I Cor. 2:8; Jas. 2:1; Rev. 1:8, 21:6; 22:13).
c. The Son has divine attributes.
i. Eternity. (Jn. 1:2; 8:58; 17:5; Rev. 1:8, 17; 22:13).
ii. Immutability. (Heb. 1:11, 12; 13:8).
iii. Omnipresence. (Jn. 3:13; Mt. 18:20; 28:20).
iv. Omniscience. (Mt. 11:27; Jn. 2:23-25; 21:17; Rev. 2:23).
v. Omnipotence. (Jn. 5:17; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 1:8; 11:17).
d. The Son does divine works.
i. Creation. (Jn. 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16-17)
ii. Salvation. (Acts 4:12; 2 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 5:9).
iii. Judgment. (Jn. 5:22; 2 Cor. 5:10; Mt. 25:31-32).
e. The Son is worshipped as God. (Jn. 5:22-23; 20:28; I Cor. 1:2; Phil. 2:9-10; Heb. 1:6).
4. The Spirit is God. Those whose accept the biblical evidence for the deity of the Son seldom have trouble understanding the evidence for the deity of the Spirit.
a. The Spirit is called God. (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17).
b. The Spirit is given divine names. (Mt. 12:28).
c. The Spirit has divine attributes. (I Cor. 2:13-14; Gal. 5:22; I Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7; 9:14; I Jn. 5:6-7).
d. The Spirit does divine works. (Jn. 6:33; 14:17, 26; 16:13; Acts 1:8; 2:17-18; 16:6; Rom. 8:26; 15:19; I Cor. 12:7-11).
e. The Spirit is worshipped as God. (Mt. 12:32).
5. The Father, Son and Spirit are distinguishable persons in relationship with one another. They are not merely different names for one God.
a. The Son prays to the Father. (Jn. 11:41-42; 17; Mt. 26:39 ff)
b. The Father speaks to the Son. (Jn. 12:27-28).
c. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit - all three - appear together, but are clearly distinct from one another. (Mt. 3:16-17).
d. The Father sends the Son and Spirit, and the Son sends the Spirit. (Jn. 3:17; 4:34; 5:30; 6:39; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7)
e. The Father and Son love one another. (Jn. 3:35; 5:20; 10:17; 14:31; 15:9-10; 17:24).

The Trinity and Logic
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Though it is clearly the teaching of the Bible, cultic groups and atheists often complain that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a contradiction. How can there be one God and at the same time three who are called God? Christians seem to be saying that 1+1+1=1. This is simply bad arithmetic, we are told, not profound theology. The fact is, however, that the doctrine of the Trinity neither involves nor implies a contradiction. How, then, does a Christian explain that God is both one and three at the same time? The answer, in part, is that He is not one in precisely the same way that He is three. Trinitarianism would be a contradiction if it affirmed that God is one and three in precisely the same sense, but no one in the history of the Church has ever taught such a view. All the same, this is only a partial
answer.

There is a very great difference between something being a demonstrated contradiction and something being incomprehensible.

All words besides biblical references from Trinity & Reality An Introduction to the Christian Faith by Ralph A. Smith.

Yes, Heath21. This is this book that I want you to pick up.

Into the discussion I will go deeper into thought and show you what the Trinity is comprised of, and show the logic behind it.

[Kontroll]

Jesus was a prophet. I gave you a thousand different references that says that Jesus is God's son and apart of the Trinity. It doesn't make sense that Jesus is 100% God. Why would Jesus pray to God in the garden of Gathseminae? However you spell it. Why would Jesus ask God, 'Why has Thou forsaken me?'

It only makes sense to say that Jesus is not 100% God. It's a Trinity. Do I really need to list those references again?

[sweetangel2128]

Jesus was a prophet. I gave you a thousand different references that says that Jesus is God's son and apart of the Trinity. It doesn't make sense that Jesus is 100% God. Why would Jesus pray to God in the garden of Gathseminae? However you spell it. Why would Jesus ask God, 'Why has Thou forsaken me?'

It only makes sense to say that Jesus is not 100% God. It's a Trinity. Do I really need to list those references again?

I also posted you a thing that Jessica said about that, about him praying in the Garden to God - her pastor explained why it is that way and he also explained why the trinity is wrong. Jesus was the messiah, he even claimed in the Bible as being the messiah. Like I said read the word of God, it tells you. I do not need your references to know what the Bible talks about. But thanks for offering

[Kontroll]

I also posted you a thing that Jessica said about that, about him praying in the Garden to God - her pastor explained why it is that way and he also explained why the trinity is wrong. Jesus was the messiah, he even claimed in the Bible as being the messiah. Like I said read the word of God, it tells you. I do not need your references to know what the Bible talks about. But thanks for offering

Oh, so the Bible is clear on all things except Jesus praying to God in the garden. Hmm. That's interesting how you contradict yourself.

[sweetangel2128]

Oh, so the Bible is clear on all things except Jesus praying to God in the garden. Hmm. That's interesting how you contradict yourself.

I never once contradicted myself. I think the whole praying to God thing makes total sense.

Ps: I have a Question for you. You claim that Jesus is not God, if that is so then what do you think this verse means:

John 1: 1-5.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

So, in that verse it's pretty clear they are saying that God created everything and that he is the Word.

Now, look at this verse:

John 1: 10-14.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This last verse shows us that Jesus was in fact God, hence the part of the verse that says - "The Word became flesh" meaning Jesus. This is why the Trinity is false because the Trinity teaches that Jesus is the son of God and is not in fact God but a prophet and that they are all different persons. They are all the same and no different from eachother. As I said, read the Bible, it clearly states that Jesus is God.

[Kontroll]

Ps: I have a Question for you. You claim that Jesus is not God, if that is so then what do you think this verse means:

I never said that Jesus wasn't God. What I am saying is that they are two distinguishable persons in the Trinity. Read this. This might clear things up.

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First, we will take time to consider the truth that what God does in history reaveals who He is in eternity. In part, this isa simple deduction from the fact that God cannot change. He is self-consistent.

In the creation of the world and through His leading in history, God is manifesting Himself.

Second, we will look into the implications of an ancient theological word -- perichoresis in Greek, circumincessio in Latin -- that points to an important aspect of the Trinity. The theological terms are technical, but the truth expressed is straightforward: each of the Persons of the Trinity dwells in the others. This comes to expression most frequently in the Godpel of John, where our Lord repeatedly says that He is 'in the Father' and the Father is 'in' Him.

The incomprehensible depth and transparent clarity of GOd's self-revelation are united in the revelation that He has given to us in His Son.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth...
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:14, 18)

Is there a biblical word that sums up God's self-revelation in history? No doubt there is more than one perspective from which to view the subject, but the most frequent employed biblical device for structuring history is the covenant. From the Garden of Eden to the end of the world, God establishes covenants that define His relationship with man, and He never relates to man apart from a covenant. This raises the question about God Himself: Do these covenants reveal God's nature? The answer to that question is given, in part, in the fact that the relationship between the Father and the Son embraces all the elements of the biblical idea of covenant and reveals most deeply its meaning.

The Elements of a Covenant
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Though God reveals Himself in all of His works throughout history, it is appropriate to begin with His glorious manifestation of Himself in Christ, for only in the light of the knowledge of Christ can we grasp, for what it truly is, everything else God has done in history. Jesus is the center of our calendar because He is the center of all. In the Bible the centrality of Christ is seen in the fact that the entire Old Testament era is spent waiting for the coming of the Messiah, with the prophets declaring various aspects of His saving work and proclaiming the glories of His reign and the histories foreshadowing His person and work. From the fall of Adam onward, the whole of biblical revelation is focused on the seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15).

Hierarchy
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When we consider the gospel accounts, especially the Gospel of John, another aspect of God's self-revelation through the incarnation of Christ becomes clear. One of the most frequently repeated themes in the Gospels is that the Father sent the Son into the world (Mt. 10:40; 15:24; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 4:43; 9:48; 10:16; Jn. 3:17; 4:34; 5:23, 24, 30, 36, 37; 6:29, 38, 39, 40; 7:16, 18; and others). This fact has a number of significant implications, but one of the most simple and obvious is that there is a hierarchy within the Trinity. The Father sends the Son. The Son submits to the Father's will. In the words of Jesus, "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him" (Jn. 8:29). Of course, the very name Father and Son imply the hierarchical relationship, expressed so frequently in the Gospels as Jesus' obedience to the Father His seeking the Father's honor and glory. Though it is not emphasized, the same relationship can be seen between the Spirit and the Son, for the Son, together with the Father, sends the Spirit, and the Spirit glorifies the Son (Jn. 15:26; 16:7, 14).

Hierarchy in relationship means that the Father is greater than the Son in His office only, not in His being. The Father sends the Son, but the Son does not send the Father. The Father and the Son send the Spirit, but the Spirit does not send the Father and the Son. The official hierarchy of the Persons if their eternal relationship. It does not imply that the Son is less powerful or that He does not fully share the omniscience of the Father. On the contrary, the Son and the Holy Spirit possess all the attributes of GOd to the same infinite degree as the Father. The Persons of the Trinity are equal in their being but different in their personhood, existing in a hierarchy of Father, Son, and Spirit.