Evangelism Options

[yummy_delight]

A good friend of mine and I recently got into a heated debate about evangelism. We're both Christians, but we have very different ideas about evangelism. When my friend started getting really involved in church a few years ago, he also became a rampant evangelist. He believes that by bringing more people into the church he is not only saving them from eternal damnation, but also doing his duty as a Christian. He has often quoted Charles Spurgeon, saying "Every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter," essentially stating that you can't truly be Christian without evangelizing non believers.

I, however, don't like the idea of evangelism at all. Although I'm a devout Catholic, I dislike the idea of evangelism because I don't believe that anybody, myself included, has the right to force his or her beliefs on someone else. I think that everybody has a right to be whatever the religion they choose. Perhaps it's because I have a different idea about God than other people. I don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God. I think that my duty as a Christian is to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that I HAVE to be an evangelist.

I'd just like to know what everyone else's opinion is on this, not merely from a Christian standpoint, but from another religion's or atheist's perspective as well. Do you approve of evangelism? Are you an evangelist? Do you think that evangelism is a necessary requirement for all good Christians?

[sdingfelder]

Quick question on replying: Are there a limited number of quote delimiters that go into a post ?

From Angelina Taylor:
You mean Jesus? He was a historical figure rather than a religious one. I don't know if I mentioned this, but he was killed for crimes against the state.. not religious crimes. The church twisted all that.

First, I don't understand how you could say that Jesus was an historic vs. religious figure. Christianity is a religion that, at its core, is based on The Christ -- Jesus. He's only a historic figure to those who are not Christians and choose not to follow His teachings.

As for Him being killed for non-religious crimes, please point me to where you got that piece of information. John 5:18 and Luke 22:70-71 very clearly state the reason why the Jews sought to have Him killed. His own teachings describe what he brought to the nation of Israel as being the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and as something sufficient to tear apart Judaism.

From Angelina Taylor:
And how do we know about these events? From the bible. Unless I'm wrong, it's probably the one source where you can read about them. See my point?

Actually, we have secular documents (such as the writings of Josephus -- even if you do remove the disputed portions regarding Jesus) that corroborate the Bible.

From Angelina Taylor:
Please refer to my response earlier. How are those prophecies? First, they are too vague. And they don't prove anything really. Either that or I'm really thick-minded. Oh yeah, and I could not find the one where May 15th is mentioned.

I've got to tell you that I'm very surprised that you'd say that those handful of prophecies on Messiah are vague. Honestly, how is it vague that a child would be born in Bethlehem ? How is it vague that One would be given as a light to the Gentiles ? How is it vague that there would be One that made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death ? How is it vague that they plucked His beard out and that His clothing were gambled for ? How are they vague ?

How about this for a vague prophecy ? It isn't prophetic of Messiah, but it is prophetic nonetheless. Read Isaiah 44:28 & Isaiah 45:1. Then look at 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 & Ezra 1:1-2. Finally, look at the archaeology and history:
http://lordibelieve.org/arch/arch3/sld004.htm
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...blical_prophecy

As I mentioned above, for the May 15th prophecy, please refer to http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html.

From Angelina Taylor:
I would not doubt that, since I've studied about Israel Finkelstein for a while now.

I'm not surprised that there's someone in Finkelstein's position that doesn't believe the Hebrew Scriptures. When I was in Israel, I met tons of Jews who don't even believe in God at all. How they could live in Israel and be so blind is beyond me. Never before has a separate people had no homeland for 2000 years and kept their culture and "separate-ness". Never before has a language been resurrected after over 1000 years as Hebrew has.

Please realize that the same evidence that Finkelstein reviews is seen by both sides and all that each expert says is prefaced with "I believe...", "I don't believe...", or "...as far as I can judge." Refer to http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week723/cover.html

I think one thing that is really funny about what Finkelstein has said ("evidence indicates that this part of Genesis was a national epic created in the seventh century BCE which successfully joined many regional legendary ancestors into one unified tradition"). Consider that if this is true, then Genesis was written during the time of Isaiah the Prophet. Why would there be a nation of Israel about to be brought captive to Babylon (which is definitely a point in secular fact as well as history) if the very Book that defines who a Jew is was just recently written ?

***
From Angelina Taylor:
There are so many of them that you probably won't have time to read through them all. It's very intriguing though.
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I read through the first dozen or so and see why you say that I won't have time to read through them all. Do you have your top three or so favorites from this list ? As opposed to describing the Believer's side starting with #1, I was hoping to look at the ones that mean the most to you in order to correct what Mr. Morgan has compiled on this page.

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From Angelina Taylor:
I've read both the koran and the bible (although I read the bible a good while ago, so I've started reading it again). The beginnings are oh so similar - Adam learning the names of all animals, Adam and his wife being in "heaven" (eden) and being forbidden to eat from a particular tree but then, of course, being sent out because they didn't obey that order; people being rescued from a Pharaoh, a see being divided in two... There are more, but I can't remember right now. Thought it'd be interesting.
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Realize just a few of the main differences between the Quran and the Bible:
Quran: Written in less than one man's lifetime based on the words given by one man in one language
Bible: Written over a period of over 1600 years by 40 authors (ranging from priests to kings to prophets to tent makers) in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek

Quran: Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael -- Ishmael is the son of promise
Bible: Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Isaac -- Isaac is the son of promise

Quran: The Jews are to be destroyed
Bible: The Jews are the chosen people and called "the apple of His eye" (Zechariah 2:8)

Quran: Teaches that your works will determine whether or not you make it to the Muslim Heaven (but only one way to know if you'll make it or not)
Bible: Teaches that your works are as filthy rags to the Righteous and Holy God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Quran: The only way to know for sure that you can make it to the Muslim Heaven -- die in jihad
Bible: The only way to know for sure that you can make it to Heaven -- faith

Quran: The god of Islam can change his mind any time he wants. This even includes those who make it to the Muslim Heaven.
Bible: The God of Israel is unchanging. His unconditional promises can never be broken.

Since they can't both be right, it must be that only one of them or neither of them are.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
I feel bad for people who still believe Jesus died for their sins. But, you know - sanity comes in numbers.
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The feeling is mutual. Those who truly believe Messiah died for their sins truly grieve for those who don't believe. If you were to receive the cure to a deadly disease and then be handed a gym bag full of of the cure, would you simply take that gym bag and store it away ? I hope not !! Instead, wouldn't you rush to give it to others since you've just been cured ? Even if someone you tried to hand it to said that they didn't have any disease, wouldn't you look at them and show them the evident signs that they're diseased and they NEED TO APPROPRIATE this cure ??

This is the purpose of God's Law. As nice a person as you may be, you've lied at some point in your life. You've taken something at some point in your life -- it doesn't matter the value. You, as we all are, are guilty and justice will be served. If you have no way to pay the price for your freedom, your eternal destiny is guaranteed.

I feel bad for people who still don't believe Jesus dies for their sins. But, you know -- truth doesn't necessarily come in numbers.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
No, you don't "know". You believe. Religion is based on faith, not facts. Hence it's a religion. Pure, blind faith. That's why it's not good enough for me.
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Consider a little boy who is looking at a heater. His father warns him that it's hot. The child say, "OK. I believe it's hot." At that point, he has an intellectual belief that the heater is hot. When his dad leaves the room, he says, "I wonder if it really is hot ?" He then reaches out his hand and grabs the heater bar with his fingers. The second his flesh burns he stops believing the heater is hot. He now knows it's hot ! He has moved out of the realm of "gaith" and into the realm of "experience".

Two minutes later, a heater expert come in and says, "Son, I have a degree in the study of heat, heat exchange, and heaters. That heater is definitely not hot. I can prove it to you." That child would probably say, "Mr. Expert, I don't care how many degrees you have. I know that that heater is hot -- I touched it !! I'm not in the realm of belief, I'm in the realm of experience. The door's that way. Goodbye."
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From Angelina Taylor:
Yeah, I don't buy this. I can't base my entire life beliefs on something like that. The prophecies which you claim prove the bible right are not good enough. I didn't find anything particularly intriguing about them.
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I understand. I couldn't either when I looked at the Bible as an old book written by a bunch of guys who died a long time ago.

So instead of basing your entire life's beliefs on something like the Bible, you're choosing to base your entire life's beliefs on what makes sense to you based on what people have written. One Book claims to be from God. The others make no such claim and you choose them. Men are wrong every single day. Please don't make mistakes based on the teachings of men.
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From Angelina Taylor:
He has mentioned that when it comes down to it, all religions are technically the same - they preach similar things, have very similar elements. If you think Christianity is unique, you're wrong.
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The problem with your logic is that you're basing your opinion solely on the thoughts and opinions of the guy who said that -- no matter how many degrees he has. You've elevated his words because of the letters after his name and the fact that he stands in front of a number of people willing to listen. As anyone, he can be deceived.

As for your statement that there's nothing unique about Christianity: please admit that just because your teacher says it doesn't make it correct. I mentioned above a few differences between the Quran and the Bible, but realize that EVERY RELIGION other than Biblical Christianity looks to the works you perform as being the means by which to make it to Heaven. Biblical Christianity is defined by justification through faith alone. I say "Biblical Christianity" because there are many misled "Christian" sects that have gone back to a works-based theology that contradicts the plain reading of the Bible.

The works we do mean nothing to a Righteous and Holy God.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
The End of Faith by Sam Harris
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I'm glad you enjoyed the book by Mr. Harris. Honestly, I will not read it knowing that it's merely the thoughts and opinions of a man when his writings do not line up with the Bible.

If you do actually like to read, my wife and I would gladly send you a book that you might like -- I'll pay for the book as well as the shipping. Simply PM me with where to send it if you're interested in a free book.

From ursedonah:
First, everyone had access to these "prophecies". Anyone could study them and create a story from them.

What's the largest book you've ever read ? Let's say you've read "War and Peace". Do you think you could create another story from portions of that book that not only made sense (in terms of chronology and theme) but also that didn't contradict the original ?? That's what your hypothesizing (if that's a word). You're saying that all the prophecies of Messiah were simply taken out (keeping the original context as well) in order to create a second Book (the New Testament). The New does not contradict the Old. The New actually exposes those things that were hidden in the Old.

Have you ever heard of Bible Codes ? Please read up on them and see how there's no way the original Hebrew Scriptures were written by man. As a software professional, I can honestly say that there's no way to do what the Bible Codes do and they were penned by hand starting in about 1900 BC !!!

From ursedonah:
Second, you have no way of proving that ANY of them came true. Sure, the bible says it. But there is no other source that proves any of that.

Please see my comment above (search for "Josephus")

From ursedonah:
And you delude yourself to think that just because someone predicted something, that means they were inspired by god.
What about when meteorologists predict a hurricane? Or when someone predicts when the next solar eclipse will be? Or when they predict how long it will be until the planets align a certain way? Are all those predictions inspired by god?
And throughout history, there have been oracles and soothesayers who have predicted things very accurately. Many, if not all, of these were pagans.

First, let's compare apples with apples instead of reaching for straws. A meteorologist does not prophecy. He studies what's going on and makes an educated conclusion. The "prediction" of a solar eclipse fits into this same model. You're not addressing a statement made hundreds to thousands of years prior to the event with no indications identifying the event. They, in no way, compare.

As for the oracles and soothesayers you mention, I do agree that there have been those that have predicted things to happen and they've happened -- hit & miss. In today's world, they call them sports commentators. They're about as "dead on" as they were when they were called oracles and soothesayers. You're also right about most of them being pagans.

From ursedonah:
I dont, however, threaten anyone or really expect them to accept my beliefs.

Of course you don't. You don't have anything to offer except a belief system that says your life will end and that's it.

I don't expect anyone to accept what I have to say. It is my responsibility, though, to let people know of something that they may not know. It is my responsibility to remind people that they will not live forever and that they can't guarantee that they'll have tomorrow.

Tell me, what year will you die ? What month ? What day of the week ? What day ? You can't tell -- no one can. I'm simply bringing something to the forefront of your thoughts because it's extremely important.

From what you've said about your beliefs, you should actually be thanking me. You said that you're belief is to live life to the fullest -- while you can. What I've done is remind you that today could be your last. It's your choice what you do with that knowledge -- go have some fun or get right with God.

From ursedonah:
Obviously, you know absolutely nothing about Satanism.

That's exactly why I told you that I knew nothing about it. That's why I said, "I'm truly interested in your answers since I've never had the opportunity to speak to someone who's been honest enough to claim to follow Satan." and asked you questions about it.

From ursedonah:
look up the nine satanic sins and the eleven satanic rules of the earth for more information on said guidlines

Thanks for the references and for sharing some of what you believe.