Evangelism Options

[yummy_delight]

A good friend of mine and I recently got into a heated debate about evangelism. We're both Christians, but we have very different ideas about evangelism. When my friend started getting really involved in church a few years ago, he also became a rampant evangelist. He believes that by bringing more people into the church he is not only saving them from eternal damnation, but also doing his duty as a Christian. He has often quoted Charles Spurgeon, saying "Every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter," essentially stating that you can't truly be Christian without evangelizing non believers.

I, however, don't like the idea of evangelism at all. Although I'm a devout Catholic, I dislike the idea of evangelism because I don't believe that anybody, myself included, has the right to force his or her beliefs on someone else. I think that everybody has a right to be whatever the religion they choose. Perhaps it's because I have a different idea about God than other people. I don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God. I think that my duty as a Christian is to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that I HAVE to be an evangelist.

I'd just like to know what everyone else's opinion is on this, not merely from a Christian standpoint, but from another religion's or atheist's perspective as well. Do you approve of evangelism? Are you an evangelist? Do you think that evangelism is a necessary requirement for all good Christians?

[sdingfelder]

I apologize for my long response here. ursedonah & Angelina Taylor bring up some really good points and I'm doing my best to keep up with all these...

[quote]From ursedonah:
could you give me the verse that says this? I can't seem to find it.
[/quote]
My bad. Daniel is the prophecy of the coming of Jesus. The rebirth of Israel is mainly given in Ezekiel, but please feel free to review the following:
http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html & http://home.flash.net/~venzor/chapter1israel.htm. Please note that I don't know the guys that made these websites, but they did what looks like a good job on explaining this.
[quote]From ursedonah:
You say the bible must be accurate because prophecies have been fulfilled within it. The bible is so vague that you can hardly call anything within it prophecy.

name one specific prophecy (and cite the verse) that has been fulfilled. something specific.[/quote]
Below are just a small handful of prophecies in the Bible concerning the coming of Messiah. After reading them, I'd honestly be very interested to know how you consider them vague. For others with which I've had the pleasure of discussing issues, I've tried not to quote verses mainly because I know that most here do not believe in the integrity of the Bible. I'm doing it now because of ursedonah's specific request.

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 49:6
"Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Micah 5:2
"'But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.'"
Zechariah 9:9
""Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey."
Zehcariah 11:12
"Then I said to them, 'If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.' So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver."
Zechariah 11:13
" And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter' -that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter."
Isaiah 53:3
"He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him."
Isaiah 53:9
"And they made His grave with the wicked-But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth."
Isaiah 50:6
"I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting."
Psalm 22 (look at the whole chapter, but for this we'll look specifically at verse 18)
"They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots."

I have no idea if you know how to calculate probabilities. For anyone who doesn't, it goes like this: The chance of flipping a coin once and getting a heads up is 1 out of 2 (or one-half). The chance of flipping a coin two times in a row and getting two heads up is 1 out of 2 (for the first flip) and 1 out of 2 (for the second flip). These two probabilities are multiplied (one-half times one-half) to come to 1 out of 4 (one-quarter).

Consider the probability of one person satisfying just the prophecies above !! A child born who would be called "Mighty God" ? A Jew who would be considered a "light to the Gentiles" ? One "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting" who was born in Bethlehem ? A King who would enter Jerusalem on a specific day riding a donkey (this is the Daniel reference that I confused with Ezekiel above) ? A man who was sold for 30 pieces of silver and that money thrown to the floor of the Temple and then used to buy a plot of land ? A man who's despised and rejected ? A man who was killed with the guilty but was laid in a rich man's tomb ? A man who went through the torture of getting struck and having his beard pulled out ? A man whose clothing was taken, split, and others gambled over them ?

The chance of one person satisfying just the above prophecies is enormous !! In fact, the chance of one person fulfilling less than the above has been conservatively estimated as 1 * 10^17. That's 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 !! That estimate describes (approximately) the state of Texas covered in 2 feet of quarters. One of those quarters has a mark on it. You reach into this mass of quarters and pick out the correct quarter. That's 1 in 10^17.

And there are many, many more prophecies.
[quote]From ursedonah:
I could say right now "in one thousand years, a boy will be born with blue eyes."
I just made a prophecy! GO ME! I bet that on december 29, 3006, somewhere in the world, a baby boy will be born with blue eyes.
A real prophecy would be something like "on december 29, 3006 at 2:23 PM a baby will be born with blue eyes. His name will be Aaron, and his mother's name will be Margaret. His father will be unknown, but the mother narrows it down to either Cortland or Coleton. on january 13, 3013, they find out that it was neither Cortland nor Coleton. It was the random guy she hooked up with when she was drunk, whose name happens to be Jeremy. Now Jeremy was an electrician who liked to......"[/quote]
Your example actually does a good job of supporting my statements above. All the qualifications that you give in your example are the requirements of your baby born in 3006. The Bible's done exactly that in letting us know who the Messiah of Israel would be. His Hebrew name is Y'shua.
[quote]From ursedonah:
but the bible doesnt have that kind of prediction. Everything is vague.[/quote]
Again, please tell me how the above verses are vague.
[quote]From ursedonah:
This isnt in any way related to the debate, and it can almost be considered a personal attack, in addition to being complete and total --.

we're getting off topic in this debate. The point of it isn't to give you an opportunity to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat, its to discuss whether or not its right to do so

In case you haven't figured it out, I hate evangelists. [/quote]
Of course, this is your personal opinion, so feel free to stand firm in it. This is a blog on evangelism, so as I discuss my thoughts on evangelism and how it's done out of a concern for the eternal welfare of others, I make sure to share the fact that we're all determined a day to be judged by the very God you reject. Just as you can stand firm on your personal opinion on all subjects, you have the choice to stand firm on this rejection.

Your opinion is that we're "off topic". Again, the topic is evangelism. If you truly feel that my words are off topic, then you might do best to not address them since it simply brings more attention (and discussion).

As for your hate of evangelists, that's a shame. The Bible's very clear about the eternal destiny of those who reject His Sacrifice -- read Revelation 21:8.
[quote]From ursedonah:
I dont care what your religion is, so long as you dont try to force it on other people. I think that's completely out of line and unnecissary. [/quote]
I have to assume, then, that you don't "force" your beliefs on others, then. If that's true, which is also true ? You either (a) don't threaten others to accept your beliefs or (b) you don't believe so strongly in your "faith" that you think everyone needs to know about it.

In terms of your implication that I'm forcing what I believe on others, please explain how my words written remotely and distributed electronically and with no face-to-face encounter can "force" anything on anyone ? Honestly. My words can easily be skimmed over and disregarded. You can immediately tell where I stand in terms of my theology, my worldview, etc. You have the option to see my name listed and not even read anything I've written. I will not consider it rude for you to do that.
[quote]From ursedonah:
From the viewpoint of a Satanist, evangalism is pointless. We have no interest in "saving souls" or any -- like that. If someone wants to be an idiot and waste their life, let them.[/quote]
I'm actually very, very interested in the fact that you're a professed Satanist. Where do you get your information on the one you worship ? Do you read the Bible in order to learn more about him ? Seeing as Satan's "resume" is given so clearly in Scripture, I can't help but wonder if you see him as the prince of lies -- the great deceiver -- the accuser. What promises does the one you worship give to you for eternity ? How can you believe those promises knowing that he's described as a liar from the beginning ?

In terms of your lack of interest in "saving souls": What do you believe happens to your soul when your body takes its last breath ? Do you believe your soul is saved ?

Since you made the statement about someone wasting their life: What do your beliefs prescribe in order to NOT be an idiot and waste your life ?

I'm truly interested in your answers since I've never had the opportunity to speak to someone who's been honest enough to claim to follow Satan.

[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Counter question for you - How do you know who wrote the bible? As far as I'm informed, I'm pretty certain Hebrews wrote it. Don't you think it's kind of discriminating to say only men wrote the bible when you have no evidence? [/quote]
The Bible says who wrote it and you're exactly correct -- Jews wrote it (except for the Book of Luke -- a Gentile -- in the New Covenant). As far as whether or not it's discriminating that only men wrote the Bible: No, I don't.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Pardon my infinite ignorance, but could you explain what prophecy exactly you're talking about? And, furthermore, if what you're saying is indeed true, does that prove the existance of god? Why does it prove it? [/quote]
I hope that my previous response didn't offend you. Your choice of words "my infinite ignorance" sounds like I used poor judgment in the words I chose. If so, please forgive me. I am ignorant in many, many things and will be the first to admit it. There's no way I know as much as you do about playing the piano and if I were interested in learning, I would have to go someone I could trust whom I know has greater knowledge on the subject than I.

Please look above in my response to ursedonah for the prophecies (don't miss the fact that I got Daniel and Ezekiel mixed up). As for whether or not what I'm saying is true proving the existence of God, it most definitely does. If there's a Book that shows itself to have documented things that haven't happened yet, then it must've been written by One who knows exactly what's going to happen. There is no man that can do that, so this immediately implies that there's something greater than man. This could, though, be multiple gods. So, you gain a little trust for this document and read a little more. Trusting that this Book is not authored by man, you read it and see that it says in there that there's only One God. You find, further, that it says that throughout the Book. In fact, it says that anything else that is worshipped is a false god.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
What does that have to do with god and the accuracy of the bible?[/quote]
You had previously implied that the people back in Biblical times were a "backward people" in saying that the wheelbarrow was major technology (I'm paraphrasing, of course). I mentioned what I did about the Great Pyramid to say that they were advanced in things that we're not. Further, the other comments about science finally catching up to the teachings in the Bible shows that the Bible is accurate -- beyond what men know or believe.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Again, I'm waiting to see what prophecy you're talking about. What facts precisely? Do you know how many flaws the bible contains? Furthermore, do you know how many stories from the bible are found in other "holy" texts? [/quote]
Please see the above prophecies specifically answering ursedonah.

Please give me some flaws in the Bible that you're talking about. I'm very interested to see some.

Yes, there are many stories from the Bible that are found in other documents -- religious as well as secular. How does that mean that it's not true ?
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
The "word of god"... how do you know it's the word of god? If you have no way to prove it, why should I have any reason to believe it?[/quote]
Refer to the above discussion starting with "If there's a Book that shows itself"
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
If me and ten of my friends told you that we had a spiritual experience and actually saw Jesus in his flesh standing in my room, would you believe me?[/quote]
Actually, I wouldn't believe you because your experience would contradict the Word of God. It is not the Word that needs to change based on my experiences, opinions, or thoughts. It is me, my thoughts, my intentions, and my desires that need to change based on His Word. My desire is to know that I represent well the One who gave His life for me. In trying to represent Him, I want to make sure that others know what their eternal destiny is if they don't His Gift of Salvation -- in an attempt to show them their need for that Gift.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
How can you base your entire life views on a book, containing such incredible writings as all the miracles it describes? I'm interested.[/quote]
That Book (with incredible writing of the miracles He's performed) is the most precious thing I own since I know (not just believe) that it was authored by One outside of time. Have you ever heard what "BIBLE" stands for ? "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" -- this is clearly not based on any Hebrew or Greek translation, though...
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Can you quote the book of daniel? I'm intrigued to read it. I tried searching on the net, but nothing came up.[/quote]
Quote it ? I really wish I could. Here's a link to an on-line Bible if you're actually interested: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan001.html#top

Please do note, though, my mistake that I mentioned above: that I had mistaken Daniel for Ezekiel. You can get to the Book of Ezekiel from Blue Letter Bible's main page.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Maybe. But they cannot all be right. And because of that, you can't ever really know which one is the "right" one.

By the way. Have you read the Koran?[/quote]
Again, just because they're not all right, doesn't mean that one is not correct. Again, you base this conclusion on the "holy" documents they look to.

I have studied the Koran -- not as in-depth as the Bible, though. For me, once I find something that I know is a false document, I put it down.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Really? Earlier you stated that the bible was written by 40 different men, kings, and whatnot. Now you say that book was not written by men. I might be way out of line here, but which one is it?[/quote]
You're not out of line at all. You actually point out something in my terminology that I've been trying to correct for the exact reason that you bring up. So, thank you for reinforcing this for me.

Who writes a hand-written letter -- the author or the pen ? The author uses the pen to put the message on paper. In the same way, God is the author and He used men to write down that which He prescribed. Again, there's no way that a man can author something that's exactly fulfilled in the future.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
Again, I'd like to hear about those prophecies. And unless you have such knowledge about other religions and other sacred texts, I don't think you should make that statement.
---
Again, there are a handful of prophecies above that I'd be interested to know if you see them as vague (I'd asked ursedonah, but I'd like to get your comments as well).

While in college and before trying to prove my wife wrong about her belief in Jesus, I studied all kinds of religions (Nation of Islam, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hare Krishna-ism, etc.) Of course, since I grew up with Judaism I already knew about what it was like to be part of a religion that was steeped in empty tradition. So, having looked into the world of these other religions, I can say without question that true faith in the Messiah of Israel is unlike every other "religion". All other religions are "works-based" (the things I do earn my way into Heaven) as opposed to "faith-based" (only what God's done will get me to Heaven).
***
From Angelina Taylor:
P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this.
---
I'd very much like to see this. Please do expand...
***
From Obscure Enigma:
I think evangelism is fine, in a sence that you invite someone to church, missionaries, ect. but when it gets to the point where you are shoving your beiliefs down someone's t doesn't throat who already has different beiliefs, I do not agree. There is a certain point where it gets ridiculous.
---
I agree. If I were ever to see a handful of "Christians" holding down someone and making them eat pages from the Bible, I'd get them to stop immediately.

Consider this: What does it mean to shove your beliefs down someone's throat ? Are you talking about the modern-day "inquisition" of "Accept my religion or die ?" Don't get Islam & medieval Catholicism confused with Christianity.

How would you get a sleeping family out of their burning home ? Would you quietly knock on their door and hope not to abruptly disturb any good dreams they may be experiencing ? Or would you bang on that door to get them up and out since you're honestly concerned for their safety ?

How would you get the guy sitting next to you on a plane to put on his parachute on as the flight's going down ? Would you tell him that the parachute will make the movie he's watching more enjoyable ? Or would you take off his headphones and tell him that everyone's about to jump out of an airplane at 25,000 feet and if he doesn't have a parachute on, he's going to experience the law of gravity and go splat ?

True evangelism is an expression of concern for others.

Where do you believe all those who aren't born again (John 3:3) are going to spend eternity ?

[AngelinaTaylor]

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

You mean Jesus? He was a historical figure rather than a religious one. I don't know if I mentioned this, but he was killed for crimes against the state.. not religious crimes. The church twisted all that.

Consider the probability of one person satisfying just the prophecies above !! A child born who would be called "Mighty God" ? A Jew who would be considered a "light to the Gentiles" ? One "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting" who was born in Bethlehem ? A King who would enter Jerusalem on a specific day riding a donkey (this is the Daniel reference that I confused with Ezekiel above) ? A man who was sold for 30 pieces of silver and that money thrown to the floor of the Temple and then used to buy a plot of land ? A man who's despised and rejected ? A man who was killed with the guilty but was laid in a rich man's tomb ? A man who went through the torture of getting struck and having his beard pulled out ? A man whose clothing was taken, split, and others gambled over them ?

And how do we know about these events? From the bible. Unless I'm wrong, it's probably the one source where you can read about them. See my point?

Please look above in my response to ursedonah for the prophecies (don't miss the fact that I got Daniel and Ezekiel mixed up). As for whether or not what I'm saying is true proving the existence of God, it most definitely does. If there's a Book that shows itself to have documented things that haven't happened yet, then it must've been written by One who knows exactly what's going to happen. There is no man that can do that, so this immediately implies that there's something greater than man. This could, though, be multiple gods. So, you gain a little trust for this document and read a little more. Trusting that this Book is not authored by man, you read it and see that it says in there that there's only One God. You find, further, that it says that throughout the Book. In fact, it says that anything else that is worshipped is a false god.

Please refer to my response earlier. How are those prophecies? First, they are too vague. And they don't prove anything really. Either that or I'm really thick-minded. Oh yeah, and I could not find the one where May 15th is mentioned.

Further, the other comments about science finally catching up to the teachings in the Bible shows that the Bible is accurate -- beyond what men know or believe.

How is science proving that the bible is accurate? Interestingly, archeologists have done research and come to quite a few conclusions. Here:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells."

If you would like to read more, this is the site:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/jerques.htm

I would not doubt that, since I've studied about Israel Finkelstein for a while now.

Please give me some flaws in the Bible that you're talking about. I'm very interested to see some.

Here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...sistencies.html

There are so many of them that you probably won't have time to read through them all. It's very intriguing though.

Yes, there are many stories from the Bible that are found in other documents -- religious as well as secular. How does that mean that it's not true ?

If the bible is proposing itself as the "only truth", how could that be logical then?

I've read both the koran and the bible (although I read the bible a good while ago, so I've started reading it again). The beginnings are oh so similar - Adam learning the names of all animals, Adam and his wife being in "heaven" (eden) and being forbidden to eat from a particular tree but then, of course, being sent out because they didn't obey that order; people being rescued from a Pharaoh, a see being divided in two... There are more, but I can't remember right now. Thought it'd be interesting.

My desire is to know that I represent well the One who gave His life for me. In trying to represent Him, I want to make sure that others know what their eternal destiny is if they don't His Gift of Salvation -- in an attempt to show them their need for that Gift.

I feel bad for people who still believe Jesus died for their sins. But, you know - sanity comes in numbers.

That Book (with incredible writing of the miracles He's performed) is the most precious thing I own since I know (not just believe) that it was authored by One outside of time.

No, you don't "know". You believe. Religion is based on faith, not facts. Hence it's a religion. Pure, blind faith. That's why it's not good enough for me.

Who writes a hand-written letter -- the author or the pen ? The author uses the pen to put the message on paper. In the same way, God is the author and He used men to write down that which He prescribed. Again, there's no way that a man can author something that's exactly fulfilled in the future.

Yeah, I don't buy this. I can't base my entire life beliefs on something like that. The prophecies which you claim prove the bible right are not good enough. I didn't find anything particularly intriguing about them.

While in college and before trying to prove my wife wrong about her belief in Jesus, I studied all kinds of religions (Nation of Islam, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hare Krishna-ism, etc.) Of course, since I grew up with Judaism I already knew about what it was like to be part of a religion that was steeped in empty tradition. So, having looked into the world of these other religions, I can say without question that true faith in the Messiah of Israel is unlike every other "religion". All other religions are "works-based" (the things I do earn my way into Heaven) as opposed to "faith-based" (only what God's done will get me to Heaven).

My philosophy/religions professor has three of four Ph.Ds in theology, and he's a prof at a major university here. He has mentioned that when it comes down to it, all religions are technically the same - they preach similar things, have very similar elements. If you think Christianity is unique, you're wrong. It's flawed, as are all other religions.


"P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this."
---

I said that earlier. I'd like to quote a book I'm reading (The End of Faith by Sam Harris - an excellent read, and I suggest you pick it up. You won't regret it).

"[...] Evidence . . . is the only thing that suggest that a given belief is really about the world in the first place. We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them "religious"; otherwise, they are likely to be called "mad," "psychotic," or "delusional." Most people of faith are perfectly sane, of course, even those who commit atrocities on account of their beliefs. But what is the difference between a man who believes that God will reward him with seventy-two virgins if he kills a score of Jewish teenagers, and one who believes that creatures from Alpha Centauri are beaming him messages of world peace through his hair dryer? There is a difference, to be sure, but it is not one that places religious faith in a flattering light.

It takes certain kind of person to believe what no one else believes. To be ruled by ideas for which you have no evidence . . . is generally a sign that something is seriously wrong with your mind. Clearly, there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are. This is not surprising, since most religions have merely canonized a few products of ancient ignorance and derangement and passed them down to us as though they were primordial truths. This leaves billions of us to believe what no sane person could believe on his own....

The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.... We are, even know, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who would have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible?"