bible/religion as fact Options

[*Statues/Shadows*]

In nearly every debate, people always seem to insist on using "I believe this because of my religion" or "it's in the bible."

However, are these actual valid foundations for debate?

[illriginal]

Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?


Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a man, Messenger of God, and the Messiah, who will return to destroy the anti-Christ, very soon.

He was born of Virgin Birth, son of the Virgin Mary, but his mission was that of a Prophet, like every Prophet before and after him, and he taught the SAME doctrine of salvation as all of God's other Prophets: that salvation is through God alone, and NOT through any one of His creations. He is distinguished by his virgin birth, the sign of the Messiah.

Read more here: http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/

The NT claims that Christ personally claimed to be God. He said "I and my Father are one" "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" "I am the way the truth & the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"

Jesus (pbuh) didn't write that sentence there, he didn't even take a look at it and authenticate it. These passages were written after he ascended to Heaven, YEARS after, and remained a huge controversy among Christians for up to 300 years after his ascension.

Some writers of the NT put words in Jesus' mouth. THEY are the liars, and Jesus said nothing but the Truth. He was neither God NOR a Heretic. The liars among the writers of the NT were the heretics.

Most Christians are told that Jesus' (pbuh) true apostles, i.e. the men that Jesus (pbuh) considered his apostles, are the writers of the NT. This is a major misconception.

The Qur'an talks about Jesus' desciples, that they are trusted and pious men, but there is simply no evidence that ALL the writers of the NT are the men that Jesus (pbuh) himself CONSIDERED his apostles.

WORSHIPPING ANYTHING OR ANYONE in ASSOCIATION with God, in any way shape or form, is the UGLIEST sin imaginable in the sight of God. In fact, God says:

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. (Qur'an 4:48)

That means if the Christian Missionary lived his life for JESUS (pbuh) instead of GOD, the LORD OF JESUS (pbuh), he is in SERIOUS trouble.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "By Him in whose Hand is the life of Muhammad, anyone of this community, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in me, will be among the inhabitants of the Hellfire."

That's a VERY serious warning. Again, that does not imply ETERNAL Hell, but it definitely means that you can spend a LIFETIME doing good for other than God, and it won't count ANYTHING towards your salvation.

You're being emotionally led to believe that disbelieving that the NT is 100% the accurately transmitted words of Jesus (pbuh) is somehow akin to disbelieving in Jesus (pbuh) himself, or his apostles. ALL of these emotional appeals take as granted the assumption that the NT is something Jesus (pbuh) dictated or verified as true on his authority.

By the way, even among Christians there is no consensus that the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were actually written solely by those individuals.

The tradition has been to presume this, though there is little scholarly proof that even these books were written by Jesus' (pbuh) apostles.

If you don't believe me, go to some prominant Christian websites and see what they say about the "authors of the New Testament". They are often pretty frank about it.


Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny's letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Muslims believe that God saved Jesus (pbuh) from being crucified. They don't believe that his mission was to be crucified, but to deliver the message of God, like all prophets (pbut).

All Muslims agree that the Jews did not succeed in killing him, though they sure tried to. Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross. I consider that he was placed on the cross, but did not die on it. The word "salaba" in Arabic refers to "death on a cross", not mere placement on it.

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - (Qur'an 4:157-158)

It would follow that the Qur'an is repeating itself: "and they did not kill him, nor did they kill him on the cross."

This would violate the Qur'anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur'an states "A and B" then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur'anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

A second proof against the above misinterpretation [posed in the question] is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed -- as other Prophets were killed -- but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility, although they left no stone unturned in collecting narrations and going over the various scenarios. So the statement that "Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross" is disinformation posing as a statistical remark. The real statement would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross -- contrary to what is being claimed above -- but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

Abu Nu`aym in Hilya al-Awliya' (1985 ed. 10:154=1997 ed. 10:161) narrates with his chain that when al-Daylami -- one of the early Sufis -- was captured by the Byzantines "he was crucified" (fa salabuh), and "when the Muslims saw him crucified (fa lamma ra'ahu al-Muslimuna masluban) they freed him after a raid and brought him down alive. He came down and asked for water, etc."

Al-Tabari in his history Tarikh al-Muluk wa al-Umam (1987 ed. 5:414) in the chapter of the year 252 describes the events of `Abdan ibn al-Muwaffaq's demise: "He was crucified alive (fa suliba hayyan)... and was left crucified (turika masluban) until the midafternoon prayer. Then he was thrown into jail and remained there for two days. He died on the third. It was ordered that he be crucified again..."

There are also examples using the term salaba or crucify for defamation-displays taking place _after_ the death of the crucified, as alluded to in the Qur'anic sequence: "They never killed him, and they never crucified him."

When Caesar's governor over Amman at the time of the Prophet Farwa ibn `Amr al-Judhami declared his Islam, he was imprisoned until he died. After his death, he was crucified. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (7:435) May Allah be well-pleased with him, he believed in the Prophet (pbuh) in the Prophet's time, yet never met him, like Uways al-Qarani.

In the hadith of Salman al-Farisi about the corrupt episcopus of the Syrian church who died, then it was discovered that he had amassed a treasure out of the people's alms, Salman narrates: "They said we shall never bury him. Then they crucified him on a plank and stoned him." Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (4:77), al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad (1:167) and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya (2:311).

In 231 Imam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i -- may Allah be well-pleased with him -- was decapitated in Samarra. "When his head was brought to the authorities [in Baghdad], they [literally] crucified it (salabuh)." Al-Khatib, Tarikh Baghdad (5:179). It is evident that the meaning here is "They displayed it on top of a pole."


Let's just say Muslims weren't the first to worship at Kaaba.

Can you be a little more specific on this?

Forced conversions aren't nice. But guess what. Christianity was very small after Jesus' death. They were persecuted by the Romans and were driven underground until Constantine finally accepted Christianity.

And again, if you want to point the finger, maybe you should take a closer look at Islam. Christianity became a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood. Islam, on the otherhand, took many victims in its early years and its eventual spread througout the Middle East.


Christianity did NOT become a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood… you need to come back to reality. You have the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Roman Empire.
Then you have those missionaries who go to other countries and tell the poor, hungry, and sick that if they convert to Christianity, they'll get medical attention, food, and financial help. Those who do not accept, get left to die. Oh about killing those who are not of their religion? Didn't a "Church" help the Nazis? Weren't most of the Nazi regime Christians of all sorts of sects? Then you have the KKK… actually here, learn some of your Christology from past to current Christian terrorist organizations, who oppress those who are different under the name of "Lord Jesus":
Learn a little aspect of your Christology
You see how this works?

By the way go back to around 1470… pretty brutal around that time, whatever happened to peace and loving religion? I dunno.

Islam didn't spread by the sword… or in other words through oppression. There's bad people and there's good people, there's a person like yourself who claims to be a humble Christian and there's the KKK and Neo-Nazis. True people of God will see heaven and deviant people who thought they were people of God will be sent straight to where they belong… and that's not heaven. Islam does not oppress, but it defends. So why would the people of God go around converting people by force? They would disobey the Laws of God… for what reason? Islam is not about forcing conversions.

Also you mentioned something about a Christian convert that's set to die? Well as for the Christian convert, apostasy is considered a crime in Islam and is punished by death. The same rules were practiced by Christians and Jews in the past. Those rules never changed, the people did as they modified their religions. Islam doesn't change its rules.

I agree, only God can pardon sin. What's the problem here?

Well if you agree that only God can forgive sins… then why confess to another human being? What makes them special or as worthy as God?

Also about the 2nd Commandment with engravings, pictures, drawings, sculpting etc which leads to idolizing...

Drawing and sculpting living things have always been illegal in Islam.
Drawing or sculpting God, his heavens, prophets, angels etc.. is prohibited, but now describing them textually is permitted.

And the funniest argument I heard about drawing, engravings, and sculpting when it comes down to Muslims is they "used" to do it… So what? It has ALWAYS been illegal in Islam. Some people also used to drink and still do. That doesn't mean it is PERMISSIBLE.

The Messenger of God (pbuh) said:

"Those who will be most severely punished are those who imitate the creation of God Almighty"
The companion of the Prophet (pbuh) added: If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects.

I'm still wondering why your religion worships someone depicted in pictures and windows in your churches, if it goes against the Law of God.

[ Posts merged. Please use the edit button at the bottom right corner of your posts. Thanks. ]


This post has been edited by mona lisa: Sep 8 2006, 07:51 AM

[*kryogenix*]

[quote name='Tamacracker' post='2274315' date='Sep 8 2006, 2:01 AM']
Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a man, Messenger of God, and the Messiah, who will return to destroy the anti-Christ, very soon.

He was born of Virgin Birth, son of the Virgin Mary, but his mission was that of a Prophet, like every Prophet before and after him, and he taught the SAME doctrine of salvation as all of God's other Prophets: that salvation is through God alone, and NOT through any one of His creations. He is distinguished by his virgin birth, the sign of the Messiah.

Read more here:[/quote]

I know who Jesus was, there is no reason to give me his story.

[quote]The NT claims that Christ personally claimed to be God. He said "I and my Father are one" "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" "I am the way the truth & the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"

Jesus (pbuh) didn't write that sentence there, he didn't even take a look at it and authenticate it. These passages were written after he ascended to Heaven, YEARS after, and remained a huge controversy among Christians for up to 300 years after his ascension.

Some writers of the NT put words in Jesus' mouth. THEY are the liars, and Jesus said nothing but the Truth. He was neither God NOR a Heretic. The liars among the writers of the NT were the heretics.

Most Christians are told that Jesus' (pbuh) true apostles, i.e. the men that Jesus (pbuh) considered his apostles, are the writers of the NT. This is a major misconception.

The Qur'an talks about Jesus' desciples, that they are trusted and pious men, but there is simply no evidence that ALL the writers of the NT are the men that Jesus (pbuh) himself CONSIDERED his apostles.[/quote]

How do you know they are the liars and that the NT is false? Who told you, Muhammad? If so, why did God wait so long to send someone? Why wasn't he pre-announced like Jesus was?

[quote]WORSHIPPING ANYTHING OR ANYONE in ASSOCIATION with God, in any way shape or form, is the UGLIEST sin imaginable in the sight of God. In fact, God says:

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. (Qur'an 4:48)

That means if the Christian Missionary lived his life for JESUS (pbuh) instead of GOD, the LORD OF JESUS (pbuh), he is in SERIOUS trouble.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "By Him in whose Hand is the life of Muhammad, anyone of this community, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in me, will be among the inhabitants of the Hellfire."

That's a VERY serious warning. Again, that does not imply ETERNAL Hell, but it definitely means that you can spend a LIFETIME doing good for other than God, and it won't count ANYTHING towards your salvation.[/quote]

How many times do I have to tell you? Catholics do NOT worship the Saints! Never have, never will.

You're constantly saying that I know nothing about Islam, but you're always getting stuff wrong about Catholicism, even though I've told you three times. In fact, some of the things you've said have come into conflict with what I've been taught about Islam.

[quote]You're being emotionally led to believe that disbelieving that the NT is 100% the accurately transmitted words of Jesus (pbuh) is somehow akin to disbelieving in Jesus (pbuh) himself, or his apostles. ALL of these emotional appeals take as granted the assumption that the NT is something Jesus (pbuh) dictated or verified as true on his authority.[/quote]

Again, you're making assumptions about me. And the same could be said about Muhammad and the Quran.

[quote]By the way, even among Christians there is no consensus that the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were actually written solely by those individuals.[/quote]

Make a new thread outlining these inconsistencies. I do not mind answering them, AS LONG AS YOU READ THEM IN THE BIBLE YOURSELF, THAT WAY YOU CAN SEE THE CONTEXT THEY ARE IN, INSTEAD OF JUST CUTTING AND PASTING FROM SOME WEBSITE. (understand why I'm emphasing that point).

[quote]
The tradition has been to presume this, though there is little scholarly proof that even these books were written by Jesus' (pbuh) apostles.

If you don't believe me, go to some prominant Christian websites and see what they say about the "authors of the New Testament". They are often pretty frank about it.
[/b]

Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny's letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Muslims believe that God saved Jesus (pbuh) from being crucified. They don't believe that his mission was to be crucified, but to deliver the message of God, like all prophets (pbut).

All Muslims agree that the Jews did not succeed in killing him, though they sure tried to. Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross. I consider that he was placed on the cross, but did not die on it. The word "salaba" in Arabic refers to "death on a cross", not mere placement on it.[/quote]

Great, thanks for telling me what Muslims believe. But you've done nothing to debunk what I've said.

[quote]
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - (Qur'an 4:157-158)

It would follow that the Qur'an is repeating itself: "and they did not kill him, nor did they kill him on the cross."

This would violate the Qur'anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur'an states "A and B" then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur'anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

A second proof against the above misinterpretation posed in the question is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed -- as other Prophets were killed -- but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility, although they left no stone unturned in collecting narrations and going over the various scenarios. So the statement that "Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross" is disinformation posing as a statistical remark. The real statement would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross -- contrary to what is being claimed above -- but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

Abu Nu`aym in Hilya al-Awliya' (1985 ed. 10:154=1997 ed. 10:161) narrates with his chain that when al-Daylami -- one of the early Sufis -- was captured by the Byzantines "he was crucified" (fa salabuh), and "when the Muslims saw him crucified (fa lamma ra'ahu al-Muslimuna masluban) they freed him after a raid and brought him down alive. He came down and asked for water, etc."

Al-Tabari in his history Tarikh al-Muluk wa al-Umam (1987 ed. 5:414) in the chapter of the year 252 describes the events of `Abdan ibn al-Muwaffaq's demise: "He was crucified alive (fa suliba hayyan)... and was left crucified (turika masluban) until the midafternoon prayer. Then he was thrown into jail and remained there for two days. He died on the third. It was ordered that he be crucified again..."

There are also examples using the term salaba or crucify for defamation-displays taking place _after_ the death of the crucified, as alluded to in the Qur'anic sequence: "They never killed him, and they never crucified him."

When Caesar's governor over Amman at the time of the Prophet Farwa ibn `Amr al-Judhami declared his Islam, he was imprisoned until he died. After his death, he was crucified. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (7:435) May Allah be well-pleased with him, he believed in the Prophet (pbuh) in the Prophet's time, yet never met him, like Uways al-Qarani.

In the hadith of Salman al-Farisi about the corrupt episcopus of the Syrian church who died, then it was discovered that he had amassed a treasure out of the people's alms, Salman narrates: "They said we shall never bury him. Then they crucified him on a plank and stoned him." Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (4:77), al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad (1:167) and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya (2:311).

In 231 Imam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i -- may Allah be well-pleased with him -- was decapitated in Samarra. "When his head was brought to the authorities [in Baghdad], they [literally] crucified it (salabuh)." Al-Khatib, Tarikh Baghdad (5:179). It is evident that the meaning here is "They displayed it on top of a pole."

[/quote]

I take the time to type up my posts, I ask that you do the same for yours. Don't just copy and paste, or at least if you do, make it brief and highlight your points. What your doing is not arguing, it is the equivalent of of an evangelist driving a dumptrucking and dumping pamphlets and Bibles on the person he wants to proselytize.

Can you be a little more specific on this?

The Kaaba was a pagan worship site, then Muhammad just incoporated it into Islam.

[quote]Christianity did NOT become a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood… you need to come back to reality. You have the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Roman Empire.[/quote]

Constantine was baptized in the 300s, effectively making Christianity a major religion. Before that, Christians were persecuted. Don't tell me the Christians were going around killing people. They worshipped in underground societies, don't tell me they were raping or pillaging before at least the year 300.

Islam on the other hand was born out of war.

[quote]Then you have those missionaries who go to other countries and tell the poor, hungry, and sick that if they convert to Christianity, they'll get medical attention, food, and financial help. Those who do not accept, get left to die. Oh about killing those who are not of their religion? Didn't a "Church" help the Nazis? Weren't most of the Nazi regime Christians of all sorts of sects? Then you have the KKK… actually here, learn some of your Christology from past to current Christian terrorist organizations, who oppress those who are different under the name of "Lord Jesus":
Learn a little aspect of your Christology
You see how this works?

By the way go back to around 1470… pretty brutal around that time, whatever happened to peace and loving religion? I dunno.[/quote]

If you're calling Christianity a violent religion because its followers were violent, then that gives everyone the right to call Islam a violent religion because of what has happen not just nowadays, but throughout its history. Put it this way, Jesus didn't go around fighting and stealing from people, Muhammad did. Perhaps some of his followers later on did not do good things, but that hardly is grounds for calling Christian ideology bad.

And if you're talking about the Crusades, the Christians were fighting defensively because none other than the Muslims were invading.

[quote]
Islam didn't spread by the sword… or in other words through oppression. There's bad people and there's good people, there's a person like yourself who claims to be a humble Christian and there's the KKK and Neo-Nazis. True people of God will see heaven and deviant people who thought they were people of God will be sent straight to where they belong… and that's not heaven. Islam does not oppress, but it defends. So why would the people of God go around converting people by force? They would disobey the Laws of God… for what reason? Islam is not about forcing conversions.[/quote]

Didn't Muhammad lead a war against the Meccans? Do you know the history of the Arab states?



Continued, due to quoting restrictions (To MOD: [b]DO NOT MERGE)

[quote]Also you mentioned something about a Christian convert that's set to die? Well as for the Christian convert, apostasy is considered a crime in Islam and is punished by death. The same rules were practiced by Christians and Jews in the past. Those rules never changed, the people did as they modified their religions. Islam doesn't change its rules.[/b][/quote]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Show me where in Christian and Jewish law it says this.

So I guess Islam isn't very welcoming to other ideologies then?

[quote]
Well if you agree that only God can forgive sins… then why confess to another human being? What makes them special or as worthy as God? [/quote]

Confessing your sins to someone doesn't make them as worthy as God.

[quote]
Also about the 2nd Commandment with engravings, pictures, drawings, sculpting etc which leads to idolizing...

Drawing and sculpting living things have always been illegal in Islam. [b]
Drawing or sculpting God, his heavens, prophets, angels etc.. is prohibited, but now describing them textually is permitted.

And the funniest argument I heard about drawing, engravings, and sculpting when it comes down to Muslims is they "used" to do it… So what? It has ALWAYS been illegal in Islam. Some people also used to drink and still do. That doesn't mean it is PERMISSIBLE.[/quote]

Good for you?

[quote][b]The Messenger of God (pbuh) said:

"Those who will be most severely punished are those who imitate the creation of God Almighty"
The companion of the Prophet (pbuh) added: If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects.

I'm still wondering why your religion worships someone depicted in pictures and windows in your churches, if it goes against the Law of God.

[ Posts merged. Please use the edit button at the bottom right corner of your posts. Thanks. ]

[/quote]

WE DON'T WORSHIP IDOLS. Am I making myself clear?

By the way Tama, please learn to use the quote tags. It makes it a lot easier.