Did Jesus Exist?, Mythical figure or Actual Man? Options

[NoSex]

[I had posted part of this before in another thread. I wanted to have a debate on the historicity of Jesus, so here it is again. A bit changed. Discuss.]

I am skeptical that a man named Jesus Christ ever even existed. In all reality, there is not a strong amount of historical documentation within the supposed time of Jesus Christ. In fact, there isn't a single known document which mentions a Jesus Christ that could be found to have appeared during the supposed time of Christ. The earliest document outside of the Bible which mentioned a Jesus Christ appears late in the first century. A small paragraph speaks of a Jesus Christ in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews. The interesting thing about this though is that the section which mentions the Christ has been under quite an amount of scrutiny. Many a scholar has expressed skepticism towards the document, and many, both liberal and conservative scholars, have taken the position that the mention of Jesus was not written by Josephus but added centuries later by dishonest christian historians.

Scholars often point to the most blaring problem within "Josephus'" passages. Josephus was a devout Jew but, in the text, refers to Jesus as "The Christ."

The passage appears in Book 18, chapter 3 and reads as follows:

"3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Although the first copies of Antiquities are believed to have appeared after 90 CE, the oldest copies available are dated back to the 9th century. All of the known copies and translations have been provided by christian sources. The work was also copied and kept alive by the church. As many have studied the text, it seems to fail authenticity in that the style and vocabulary used is highly unlike that of Josephus' other writings.

There is not a single other known document which mentions a Jesus Christ within the 1st century. There is a handful of scattered accounts of "The Christ" within the 2nd century, none of which refer to a "Jesus Christ." These seems distant and often a product of hearsay. Notable accounts are presented in small passages by Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger.

Still, not a single document naming the christ as "Jesus," within the 2nd century. As the "records" continue on into the 3rd and 4th centuries they become less and less significant. A "historical" record of a man who lived in the 1st century written in the 3rd century is a bit silly.

As you examine the documents, their authors, and the controversy involved with early christian historians creating counterfiet documents to support the historicity of their man-god you may become increasingly skeptical of a historical Jesus.

Heck, the Biblical accounts are even rather poor. Some later gospels appearing nearly six decades after the supposed death of Jesus. This would make Luke and John nearly 90 years old when they wrote their accounts. This seems highly unlikely for both the time and the situation. And, the earliest of the Gospels, Mark, doesn't even appear until 70 C.E.

It may also be noted that descending into heaven, rising from the dead, and general miracles were not much of a rare happening according to most ancient records. Suetonius, whose writings are presented as evidence for a historical Jesus, also wrote that Caesar Augustus flew into heaven after his death. Countless pagan mythology includes men-god, born of virgins, death and rebirth, as well as empty tombs and wrathful fathers; many of which date back before the Christ story.

Mithra, Dionysus, Horus, and many more ancient gods, which are contempary to the Jesus story, share numerous qualities and signs with the stories of early Christianity.

Some of the earliest writings of Christianity come from Paul of Tarsus inside his letters or Epistles. Paul is reported have written more than 80,000 words on early Christianity, which he helped to shape. However, a majority of scholars have seem to have come to the conclusion that Paul didn't even write most of his own letters, and those letters which he is believed to have written tell us little to nothing about a Jesus.

Paul is the gap between the death of Jesus and the emergence of the first Gospels in 70 C.E. But, Paul doesn't even mention ever meeting Jesus aside from within in a vision. Paul doesn't allude to a virgin birth. He doesn't say anything about Pontius Pilate, any trials, or the Pharisees. Paul doesn't give Jesus any kind of geography, he doesn't mention a single miracle, and he only speaks a few sentences concerning Jesus as an ethical teacher. Of all the words written by Paul, which closes the gap between the Gospels and the death of Jesus, we only hear about Jesus' sacrafice, his resurrection, and his ascension into heaven. And, even these events are diluted, vague, and empty compared to later gospel accounts.

Paul may not have even believed that Jesus existed as a man on earth. At least, a many early Christians did not. Many of the Pauline, Gnostics, and Jewish Christians, which largely made up the earliest Christians, did not believe that God could ever take a human form. Many believed Jesus had only existed in a mythical realm.

The theory then becomes, as Brian Flemming puts it, "Everyone forgot, then they remembered."

Paul didn't seem to know as much as the authors of the Gospels seemed to know. And, the further you press the question, and invade the origins of Christianity, the less likely it seems a man named Jesus ever even existed.

Inconsistencies in gospel, and the total lack of important historians (Philo of Alexandria, Justus of Tiberius), within the region of christ, making note of Jesus within his time just enforce a skeptical position.

It isn't like mythicists are rare or shortsighted. There really is not a good case for the historical existence of a Jesus Christ.

[ghetosmurph]

then prove harry potter is a wizard, in real life.

james, i can complain when they ignore the rest of my arguement, and don't do a terriblly good job of breaking down my arguement.
your arguements (plural your) all assume that jesus existed.

however, if someone does not believe jesus exists, they cannot believe jesus is divine. ergo, in order to prove jesus is divine to them, jesus must first be proven to exist. therefore, any attempt to prove jesus's existance as a man undermines faith in his divinity.

Ok, say for argument's sake I went out and proved a man named Harry Potter actually existed. He was a professor of midevil history at Oxford from 1846 to 1878. His existence can be historically proved though birth records, school faculty records, testimonies of people that remember him, etc. Does that make it any easier to believe that this man was actually a wizard, trained at a mystical place called Hogwarts for 7 years? No, it doesn't......

Here..... try this..... take out a peice of paper and a writing implement. Draw a fairly large circle on the page, with another little circle inside of it. Now label the large circle "existence" and the little circle inside of it "divinity". You can see that in order to prove Jesus is divine you have to prove Jesus existed, a perfectly correct statement. But you can also see that proving Jesus existence doesn't mean you can prove Jesus' divinity...... say draw another little circle that is in the divinity circle..... label that proof........ if you were to prove jesus was divine you would have to prove Jesus existed....... now draw another little circle this time in the existence circle and don't let it touch the divinity circle... also label that proof....... If you proved Jesus existed it doesn't neccessarily conclude, that he was divine..... do you see how this works?

No our arguments do not assume Jesus existed...... our arguments are based on the fact that you can prove Jesus' existence without necessarily proving Jesus' divinity..... Just like in with the little circles.....

**//EDIT//******


hahahaa..... ok here you go......

Harry Potter, Massachusetts


When people walk into Harry Potter's funeral home in Massachusetts, they are often surprised to be greeted by a funeral director with such a famous name.

"I think it helps lighten the mood," said Harry, who is a co-owner and director at Potter Funeral Service Inc. where he runs its New Bedford funeral home. "I have a small Harry Potter figurine on my desk and it helps to put people at ease.

"I get a lot of recognition about my name. Over the years, I've been interviewed on several radio stations, been in magazines and appeared on TV three times, including nationwide once. I've read the books and watched the movies, and collected various paraphernalia."

Aged 50, Harry started in the funeral business when he was 19 and has remained in the job since then for all but six years. The business was originally co-founded in 1892 by Harry L. Potter – Harry's great-grandfather.

Harry would never consider changing his name but admits that he sometimes hesitates when introducing himself.

"There have been problems ordering things by telephone and making reservations because people think it is a crank call," he said. "I usually get a long pause and then they ask if it really is my name. I always speak with these people about the coincidence and we always have a good laugh. I was once invited to speak to a church children's group. I have also gotten autograph requests. In general, it has added a bright spot to my life. I have even been given free movie tickets and received special attention when visiting some places."

Or how about this one....... even better......

Harry Potter, London


Being called Harry Potter has been a distinct advantage for Harry Potter from London, who is a barrister in criminal law, a qualified Church of England priest, a published author and a local government councilor.

"It's not a problem in the least," said the 50-year-old. "In fact, it is very beneficial. I’m a barrister and it helps me in court. It helps me to win clients, and judges can't believe it when they hear I'm Harry Potter. It's a wonderful ice-breaker - everyone has a laugh and then we get down to business. Everyone knows who I am in the courts - that's a help.

"The first Harry Potter book didn't really change anything for me. The second one became a huge hit and then things changed. Personally, I think the stories are OK but they don't compare to Tolkein or Kipling.

"Before becoming a barrister, I was prison chaplain and I still preach in churches. When the vicar introduces me, I can see everyone look up. Children, who normally leave after Sunday School, refuse to leave the church because they want to listen to me. It's most peculiar - you could say it's bizarre but benign."

Being Harry Potter has several other advantages. "I ran for election as a local government councilor and I went up against the mayor," said Harry, who has also worked as a college chaplain at Cambridge University "I won quite easily and I know he was saying he lost because he was up against Harry Potter. I would campaign by knocking on doors and introducing myself. I had dozens of children following me."

Harry's prized possession is a hand-written letter from JK Rowling, creator of the fictional Harry Potter. "When the second book, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, was published, I decided to write to JK because I too was working in chambers full of secrets at the law courts," he said. "She wrote a lovely letter back explaining the origins of the name - her neighbors called Potter and Harry being her favorite boys' name. It's probably worth thousands of pounds."

London's Harry Potter is also a published author with three history books to his name - Hanging in Judgement (1993), Bloodfeud, and Edinburgh Under Seige (2003).

"When I was working as prison chaplain, I met many prisoners with life sentences who would have been executed under old laws," he said. "Someone asked me to write something about my work and realized that no one had ever written about capital punishment since the last British execution in 1964, so I wrote the book.

"The other books were inspired by my nostalgia for Scotland - I originally come from Glasgow. Bloodfeud and Edinburgh Under Seige gave me excuses to visit Edinburgh castle and explore. Again, I realized nobody had written about the siege which lasted from 1571 to 1573, so I decided to do it."

There are loads more at this site: http://www.abebooks.com/docs/harry-potter/biographies.shtml