god thread, number 3 Options

[*disco infiltrator*]

So, it seems that everything talked about in another thread leads to religion.

So here we are!
Debate the existence of God and which one's right and stuff.

I would post links to God threads 1 & 2, but you can't search for three-letter words.
(2 got to 50 pages, think we can beat it?!?)

Er, I'll start.
I'm atheist. Prove me wrong.
By prove, I mean state facts that have been backed up by solid evidence. I have yet to see that happen in all 70 combined pages of threads 1 & 2.

[Spirited Away]

The

Galileo Controversy
Why did the

Catholic Church condemn Galileo?

The first article states, and I quote, that "Copernicus did not
intend [for heliocentrism to be presented as a theory which explains
the movements of planets in simpler ways than geocentricism]" and
that the clergyman Osiander wrote such preface to... in a way
protect Copernicus. Question: Ptolemy's philosophy was considered as
gospel truth. Wouldn't Copernicus' heliocentric theory counter the
gospel truth, and therefore it would have made him a heretic in the eyes of
believers? Of course, you must agree with me that the fear of being
labled heretic was there, history is evidence enough. Anyway, don't
you think that Corpernicus did not correct Osiander's added preface
because he had a tangible fear of the religious consequences?

Also, though Aristotle refuted heliocentricism, he may be justly
excused. The the lack of scientific instruments in his time could
not support his scientific theory otherwise. The same cannot be said
in Galileo's time. How exactly did Galileo "mocked" the Pope? I'm
confused. If Galileo simply did not agree with Pope Urban VIII's
theory and refuted it in his work since he was presenting a quite
different theory, isn't discrediting other theories fair game? Why
is it mocking? If that's mocking, then isn't the Second
Commandment "mocking" of other religions? (A whole other debate)

No torture? Imprisonment for pursuing knowledge legally and
logically is not torture? You know what we call that nowdays? Not
exactly cruel, though very close to it, but unusual punishment comes
to mind.

I also find the closing statement amusing for its lack of simple logic.

"It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace
Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not
entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just
the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the
universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe
and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy
rather than the earth."

Duh, of course we know that now because of the technology we have.
But for a man in that time period to find something so close to the
truth is rather amazing, don't you think?
I'll bother with the second article later. I'm still having a hard time
digesting what I just read.

[*kryogenix*]

Question: Ptolemy's philosophy was considered as
gospel truth. Wouldn't Copernicus' heliocentric theory counter the
gospel truth, and therefore it would have made him a heretic in the eyes of
believers? Of course, you must agree with me that the fear of being
labled heretic was there, history is evidence enough. Anyway, don't
you think that Corpernicus did not correct Osiander's added preface
because he had a tangible fear of the religious consequences?

Let's make sure we're using the same definitions. What do you mean when you say "gospel truth?" There were no infallible statements made about the orbit of Earth and the Sun. Secondly, who does the article state that Osiander was trying to protect Copernicus from?

Copernicus did not correct Osiander because he died the year the book was published.

Also, though Aristotle refuted heliocentricism, he may be justly
excused. The the lack of scientific instruments in his time could
not support his scientific theory otherwise. The same cannot be said
in Galileo's time. How exactly did Galileo "mocked" the Pope? I'm
confused. If Galileo simply did not agree with Pope Urban VIII's
theory and refuted it in his work since he was presenting a quite
different theory, isn't discrediting other theories fair game? Why
is it mocking? If that's mocking, then isn't the Second
Commandment "mocking" of other religions? (A whole other debate)

Read the article a little more closely:

At Galileo’s request, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit—one of the most important Catholic theologians of the day—issued a certificate that, although it forbade Galileo to hold or defend the heliocentric theory, did not prevent him from conjecturing it. When Galileo met with the new pope, Urban VIII, in 1623, he received permission from his longtime friend to write a work on heliocentrism, but the new pontiff cautioned him not to advocate the new position, only to present arguments for and against it. When Galileo wrote the Dialogue on the Two World Systems, he used an argument the pope had offered, and placed it in the mouth of his character Simplicio. Galileo, perhaps inadvertently, made fun of the pope, a result that could only have disastrous consequences. Urban felt mocked and could not believe how his friend could disgrace him publicly. Galileo had mocked the very person he needed as a benefactor. He also alienated his long-time supporters, the Jesuits, with attacks on one of their astronomers. The result was the infamous trial, which is still heralded as the final separation of science and religion.

Simplicio was the fool in Galileo's work. Using a fool to convey the Pope's message constitutes as mockery in my book.

No torture? Imprisonment for pursuing knowledge legally and
logically is not torture? You know what we call that nowdays? Not
exactly cruel, though very close to it, but unusual punishment comes
to mind.

Well, he was held under house arrest for disobeying an order.

I also find the closing statement amusing for its lack of simple logic.

Duh, of course we know that now because of the technology we have.
But for a man in that time period to find something so close to the
truth is rather amazing, don't you think?
I'll bother with the second article later. I'm still having a hard time
digesting what I just read.

Wait a second. Did Galileo actually prove anything conclusively? Galileo himself acknowledged that couldn't prove the motion of the earth.

jesus cannot be the son of god.

god is a spiritual being. Mary, is a corpreal being.

in order for Mary to have a child, she must get sperm.

therefore; god must have sperm.

if god has sperm, and this sperm was able to combine with mary's egg and make jesus, then it must ahve been very close to human.

so close in fact, that god would have had to hae been human.

therefore; either jesus is not the son of god or god is human.

The Virgin Birth was a miracle. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. This maintains that Jesus is the son of God and that God is not human.

[sadolakced acid]

The Virgin Birth was a miracle. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. This maintains that Jesus is the son of God and that God is not human.

but i said assume god exists, not science is false.

and science says there must be sperm.

egro; my argument holds.

[*kryogenix*]

but i said assume god exists, not science is false.

and science says there must be sperm.

egro;  my argument holds.

Why must there be sperm? Do you not think that God could allow Mary to conceive Jesus without it? It was a miracle.

What is the definition that you want me to perceive? You say there were no infallible statements, yet the Church said state a theory other than Ptolemy's and face house arrest or other forms on unsual punishment.

That's not why Galileo was put under house arrest.

Galileo could have safely proposed heliocentricity as a theory or a method to more simply account for the planets’ motions. His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a scientific theory and began proclaiming it as truth, though there was no conclusive proof of it at the time. Even so, Galileo would not have been in so much trouble if he had chosen to stay within the realm of science and out of the realm of theology. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds.

Let me rephrase since I clearly didn't research the first time. Osiander "protected" Copernicus from Protestants, or so the article says, but the chances that Copernicus would have endured the same fate as Galilleo had he not given up proving his theory is most obvious

See above quote.

Again, disagreement of theories that did not coincide with your own is mockery. Are you saying that the Church's condemnation of Galilleo's work arised from the Pope's wounded pride, even though it was the Church/Pope that tried to prevent Galilleo's publishing anything by calling it heresy?

No, it came from disobeying the order from Cardinal Bellarmine. Mocking the Pope by putting his words in the mouth of a fool only made it worse.

Okay, James, you're now Galilleo (for the sake of argument imagine you're actually Galilleo and forget your strong belief in the Pope). You know your theory makes sense and you try to make others see it but the Church says you're committing heresy with your efforts . Though the sensible thing to do is NOT to further their anger, you can't help but believe that they are fools for not following your line of thought... after all... it makes so much sense.

The problem is Galileo was a Catholic himself and believed strongly in the Pope too. Maybe Galileo could get frustrated that others did not follow heliocentrism, but I would think he could understand that some people would be averse to adopting a radical new theory immediately, especially one that Galileo could not conclusively prove himself.

A house arrest that also denied him of physicians for his hernia, denied him of having guests... He later found out during this house arrest that whatever he published have been banned. What a way to die.
What are your views about Giordano Bruno?

I was unaware of the hernia deal. I googled it and read that they denied him a visit to Florence to see doctors about it, but I can't find anything more about the topic. Declining him a visit to see doctors in Florence and declining him medical attention completely are two different matters.

I think Bruno was a misguided man.

[Spirited Away]

That's not why Galileo was put under house arrest.
See above quote.
No, it came from disobeying the order from Cardinal Bellarmine. Mocking the Pope by putting his words in the mouth of a fool only made it worse.
The problem is Galileo was a Catholic himself and believed strongly in the Pope too. Maybe Galileo could get frustrated that others did not follow heliocentrism, but I would think he could understand that some people would be averse to adopting a radical new theory immediately, especially one that Galileo could not conclusively prove himself.
I was unaware of the hernia deal. I googled it and read that they denied him a visit to Florence to see doctors about it, but I can't find anything more about the topic. Declining him a visit to see doctors in Florence and declining him medical attention completely are two different matters.

I think Bruno was a misguided man.

According to my own sources, he was house arrest for putting his support of the Heliocentric theory in writing, which he admitted while on trial that it was a rather strong support despite the Pope warning him to treat it as a hypothesis.
Your own article says, that that Galilleo is house-arrested because he made too strong of a support statement for heliocentricism and ventured into theological grounds. The Council of Trent in 1616 stated first that it was heretical and then that the "doctrine of the immobility of the Sun" was false and contrary to Holy Scripture. In his writing, he declared that science is a basis for authority. My question is, how could he avoid clashing with the theology when theology holds the oposite theory? What I see here is a censorship of knowledge. If this is still incorrect to you, please explain how.
You may research for yourself that pleas for pardons and medical treatment were refused. The latter only granted when he was well blinded (cataracts and glaucoma) and sick.

... people being averese to adopting your radical new theory is hardly plausible a crime for house arrest.

To the end of his life - nay, after his life was ended - the persecution of Galileo was continued. He was kept in exile from his family, from his friends, from his noble employments, and was held rigidly to his promise not to speak of his theory. When, in the midst of intense bodily sufferings from disease, and mental sufferings from calamities in his family, he besought some little liberty, he was met with threats of committal to a dungeon. When, at last, a special commission had reported to the ecclesiastical authorities that he had become blind and wasted with disease and sorrow, he was allowed a little more liberty, but that little was hampered by close surveillance. He was forced to bear contemptible attacks on himself and on his works in silence; to see the men who had befriended him severely punished; Father Castelli banished; Ricciardi, the Master of the Sacred Palace, and Ciampoli, the papal secretary, thrown out of their positions by Pope Urban, and the Inquisitor at Florence reprimanded for having given permission to print Galileo's work. He lived to see the truths he had established carefully weeded out from all the Church colleges and universities in Europe; and, when in a scientific work he happened to be spoken of as ``renowned,'' the Inquisition ordered the substitution of the word ``notorious.'' [Source]