Worst Americans Options

[*kryogenix*]

Who do you believe are the worst Americans of all time?

Be prepared to defend your choices! I'm expecting a lot of "George W. Bush for being a stupid dum dum head," so make sure you can stay and defend your choices.

This is not a concrete list (actually, I'm going to pick some controversial figures for the sake of debate) but here, in no particular order:

FDR- For pretty much becoming a dictator during WWII, not to mention mishandling it.
Nathan Bedford Forrest- For starting the KKK.
Joe McCarthy- For his overzealous crusade against Communism.
U.S. Grant- For being a terribly ineffective president, especially after the Civil War.
Robert McNamara- For mishandling the Vietnam War.
Malcolm X- For undoing what MLK JR III did by supporting violent miltantism.

I can't think of any more bad Americans at the moment, but I'll let you guys have a go.

[hi-C]

Malcolm X- For undoing what MLK JR III did by supporting violent miltantism.

See, I'd agree with you, to a certain extent. Towards the end of his life, around the time he took his Hajj, he his beliefs changed a lot. He was no longer an angry Black boy, he was a mature Black man.

[*kryogenix*]

Michael Moore. He pretty much shaped modern liberalism into a philosophy of anti-American hate.

Hmm. I dislike Michael Moore but he didn't make my list for a reason. He doesn't have as much power as the people on my list had. Although, his documentary was pretty influential to some people. But still, misleading people didn't directly lead to deaths (I hope).

See, I'd agree with you, to a certain extent.  Towards the end of his life, around the time he took his Hajj, he his beliefs changed a lot.  He was no longer an angry Black boy, he was a mature Black man.

I understand his belief in Islam changed him. But he didn't really undo what he started. Same thing with Nathan Bedford Forrest. When he got older, he tried to disband the KKK, but the genie was already out of the bottle.

[*mipadi*]

But still, misleading people didn't directly lead to deaths (I hope).

Unlike *cough* George Bush *cough*.

[*kryogenix*]

Unlike *cough* George Bush *cough*.

I worded it that way to get these responses.

How much of this is his fault? Usually when the intelligence agencies of the United States, Britain and Russia tell you that Saddam has WMDs, you'd take them seriously.

As far as I know, invading Iraq was not done in bad intention or irresponsibility. Bush thought that he was doing the right thing (as did mostly everyone in the house).

McCarthy, arguably, was doing the right thing by attempting to reveal communists, but he was doing it just to make himself look good at the expense of others.

Moore knows he's misleading people, but doesn't feel like he's doing anything wrong because most of what he says are not outright lies.

But the person I think who is the true villian of modern liberalism is Howard Dean. Unlike Moore, he actually has power. He called the Republican party a party of white Christians, even though he himself (and pretty much the majority of the US) is white Christian.

[*mipadi*]

As far as I know, invading Iraq was not done in bad intention or irresponsibility. Bush thought that he was doing the right thing (as did mostly everyone in the house).

Ah, but merely thinking one is doing the right thing does not make it just. Michael Moore probably thinks he is doing the right thing, too, but as you pointed out, he's still...well, an a-hole, to be frank. But if you think Michael Moore is bad for misleading the American public, certainly Bush should be held accountable as well. He misled the American public about Iraq's WMD programs, even though many intelligence officials and members of his own administration warned that the intelligence was faulty.

Even if you let him get away with that, certainly his abuses of American civil rights (especially with the reason NSA wiretapping scandal) put him up at least into the realm of worst presidents. He's done more to hinder the American way of life than the terrorists ever have, as well as hindering our reputation abroad. I'm disgusted when I open the newspaper and not only see articles of the illegal detention and torture of "enemy combatants," but listening to Bush condone and actually encourage such abuses. I'm disgusted when I read that Bush continually circumvents the Senate, judicial system, and American law in order to achieve his own ends.

The reason I can agree with Michael Moore being an idiot is because he has done a lot to hinder his cause. Fahrenheit 9/11 bared some ugly truths about our government and our war on terror--many truths were presented in the film, but Michael Moore exaggerated enough truths or misled some American audiences enough that he's opened up the entire documentary to be labeled as propaganda. Unfortunately, he's made it easy for conservatives to right it off as junk; but what is hard for a lot of conservatives to admit is that there is some truth to many of Moore's statements.

[*kryogenix*]

Ah, but merely thinking one is doing the right thing does not make it just. Michael Moore probably thinks he is doing the right thing, too, but as you pointed out, he's still...well, an a-hole, to be frank. But if you think Michael Moore is bad for misleading the American public, certainly Bush should be held accountable as well. He misled the American public about Iraq's WMD programs, even though many intelligence officials and members of his own administration warned that the intelligence was faulty.

Michael Moore knows what he put in the documentary was misleading, but Bush did not know for certain that the intelligence was faulty.

Could Bush have taken the chance, especially since we know now about the scandals to protect Iraq?

If a someone yelled "There's a bomb on this plane!," but a bunch of people were just saying that there really wasn't, you'd still investigate it wouldn't you?

Even if you let him get away with that, certainly his abuses of American civil rights (especially with the reason NSA wiretapping scandal) put him up at least into the realm of worst presidents. He's done more to hinder the American way of life than the terrorists ever have, as well as hindering our reputation abroad. I'm disgusted when I open the newspaper and not only see articles of the illegal detention and torture of "enemy combatants," but listening to Bush condone and actually encourage such abuses. I'm disgusted when I read that Bush continually circumvents the Senate, judicial system, and American law in order to achieve his own ends.

I still haven't read enough about it, but if it's true, I'd probably agree with you.

Nathan Bedford gets a lot of crap that he probably doesn't deserve. For one, when he "started" the KKK all it did was ride around town and play pranks. It was basically a social club for Tennessee elite. When the KKK became militant and started lynching black people, Forrest not only resigned but he publicly denounced it. Blaming Forrest for the KKK's militancy is like blaming Marx for the Gulags.

Point taken, since I've been reading that NBF's KKK is way different from the KKK we know.

We've had a LOT worse than Grant.

But in a time as critical as post Civil War?

wow, all my history textbooks have been pretty different from Wikipedia bias-wise. U.S. Grant was still a corrupt drunk though. Could you name those who you feel are worse?

Oh come on, out of hundreds of millions of Americans, five is all you can think of?

Read that as "I've been procrastinating on my over the break assignments."


Added to the list:

Axis Sally
Tokyo Rose
Hanoi Jane _\____ Traitor.
Alger Hiss- Traitor.
Julius and Ethel (?) Rosenburg- Traitor. (question mark because some believe that only Julius was involved, as the Venona cables show)
John Walker Lindh- Traitor.
Charles Lindbergh- Fascist Sympathizer.
Huey Long- Imagine what life would be like if he became president.
John C. Calhoun- For championing secession and no compromise.

Benedict Arnold doesn't count because he wasn't an American.

While we're talking about it, who gets too much crap?

A name that comes to mind immediately is Herbert Hoover. Way too much blame was put on him for the crash.

[*not_your_average*]

Hanoi Jane  _\____ Traitor.
Charles Lindbergh- Fascist Sympathizer.

I wasn't aware that a Vietnam War protester and a Depression-era pilot were enemies to America.

[*kryogenix*]

I wasn't aware that a Vietnam War protester and a Depression-era pilot were enemies to America.

That's not why I'm criticizing them. Protesting the Vietnam War and being a Depression-era pilot does not make you a traitor.

Jane Fonda talked to the enemy leaders about American strategy, sat on an anti aircraft gun that was used against American planes and broadcasted radio messages for the NVA.

Lindbergh wrote a memo concerning the strength of Luftwaffe (which was later proven false) that convinced Neville Chamberlain to appease Hitler.

[*mipadi*]

Lindbergh wrote a memo concerning the strength of Luftwaffe (which was later proven false) that convinced Neville Chamberlain to appease Hitler.

...but Bush did not know for certain that the intelligence was faulty.

Could Bush have taken the chance, especially since we know now about the scandals to protect Iraq?

If a someone yelled "There's a bomb on this plane!," but a bunch of people were just saying that there really wasn't, you'd still investigate it wouldn't you?

Is it not possible that Lindbergh had the same faulty information and securty concerns that you attribute to Bush?

[*kryogenix*]

...but Bush did not know for certain that the intelligence was faulty.

Could Bush have taken the chance, especially since we know now about the scandals to protect Iraq?

If a someone yelled "There's a bomb on this plane!," but a bunch of people were just saying that there really wasn't, you'd still investigate it wouldn't you?

Is it not possible that Lindbergh had the same faulty information and securty concerns that you attribute to Bush?

Your equating Lindbergh (the messenger) to Bush (the decision maker).

[*mipadi*]

Your equating Lindbergh (the messenger) to Bush (the decision maker).

Which is precisely why it's more important for Bush to check his facts before sending young men off to war.

[*kryogenix*]

Which is precisely why it's more important for Bush to check his facts before sending young men off to war.

Chamberlain and Bush were given faulty info, which is why they don't get as much blame as they could(should?) get.

I take it you don't think getting rid of Saddam was a good thing. (actually let's not debate the war in this thread...)

If you're going to say Bush is bad for using faulty intel, then will you say the House is bad for approving the war on bad intel? Are you going to say Bill Clinton is bad for Operation Desert Fox?

Interesting enough, Chamberlain is criticized for not acting, where as Bush is blamed for taking action. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yeah he did manipulate Government. But it isnt ne worst then what politicians and Lobbist do today. And at least he didnt hide it.

Manipulating the government is an understatement.

And Yes Germany was already in a post war depression after WWI which Hilter used to fuel his way into power. Also i agree that America was in a sorry state when FDR came into government. But it wasnt him that created it. Althought he fixed it pretty good.

I don't get your logic here. Hitler didn't create the depression either.

FDR could have prolonged the depression by taking control of the economy instead of letting it balance itself out.

Also i would like to know what problems we are currently trying to fix that FDR created. Every problem we have in american is caused by our present President's greed and hungry for money from the oil industry.

He was elected three times, pretty much had control over the economy and tried to pack the courts. The guy introduced welfare, minimum wage and the use of fiat money.

You wish we could blame all of our problems on Bush.

[stryker76]

Manipulating the government is an understatement.
I don't get your logic here. Hitler didn't create the depression either.

You wish we could blame all of our problems on Bush.

No Hitler didnt cause the depression for Germany he used it to manipulate the German people into thinking that he could restore Germany to is Glory. But once he was in power he started the creation or the attempted at creating his Arian(sp) Nation.

Every Major figure god or bad or neither gained there power during economic crisis. Whether it was FDR, Hitler, Mao Tse Tong(sp), Stalin, Saddam, and tonz more. The people where looking for an answer to the problem and they offered a temporary fix to get them into power.

Also can you imagine what the world would be like today if America hadnt entered WWII? Chances are that much of the western World would be under german control. With Japan expanding East. Causing the 2 forces to meet in America. Which could have started another conflict (possibly)