Wal-Mart Confronted on 'Happy Holidays' Options

[Chii]

Wal-Mart Confronted on 'Happy Holidays'
SACRAMENTO, Calif. - A group of religious protesters demonstrated outside a Wal-Mart superstore Saturday, hoping to turn away customers by calling attention to the retailer's decision to use "happy holidays" rather than "merry Christmas" in its seasonal advertising.

But even shoppers who agreed with the protesters weren't willing to interrupt their quest for holiday deals.

"I believe in Christ, and I don't like the use of 'xmas' or the use of 'happy holidays,'" said Steven Van Noy, 39, as he left the store loaded down with packages. "The bottom line is that they had what I needed at Wal-Mart, so I went to Wal-Mart to buy it."

Controversy over the secularization of Christmas is nothing new, but this year religious groups are publicly taking on retailers who have decided to tone down the religious aspects of the holiday in their store decorations and promotional material.

In an online petition, the American Family Association recently gathered more than 500,000 signatures asking Target to include Christmas in its promotions. Stores such as Sears and Wal-Mart are facing boycotts.

Wal-Mart spokeswoman Amy Wyatt said the company has made no effort to remove Christmas from its holiday ads. She said a promotion set to run from mid-November to early January was simply misunderstood: its slogan is "home for the holidays."

"It was a matter of choosing a slogan that carries through the entire season," Wyatt said. "The signs went up before Thanksgiving and won't be taken down until after New Year's. The idea was to focus on the family."

About 50 protesters took part in Saturday's demonstration, organized by religious leaders. d**k Otterstad of the Church of the Divide donned a Santa Claus costume and greeted shoppers with the message: Don't forget about the meaning of Christmas.

"It is insulting that Wal-Mart has chosen to ignore the reason for the season," Otterstad said. "Taking the word 'Christmas' out of the holiday implies there's something sinful about it. ... This is a part of our culture."

what is the big deal with "happy holidays"? not everyone celebrates christmas, have these people not heard of kwanzaa or hanukkah? "happy holidays" just covers all the bases.

[*digital.fragrance*]

3) Actually, it is quite certain and agreed by all religious institutions that Christ was not born on December 25th. The date is used for the convenience of conversion. That much is clear and undebatable. Christians didn't choose to celebrate on December 25th out of the blue and to claim that it's wrong to say Happy Holidays when Christians took over the holidays from Pagan traditions is RIDICULOUSLY hyppocritcal.
4) The said term isn't copyrighted. If Christians want the word to be holiday specific and not used freely by non-Christians or for commercial means, get it copyrighted or turn it into a trademark. It's NOT only non-Christians that's doing the limiting, haven't you heard that there are Christian lead movements to kick Happy Holidays out? The reason to remove Merry Christmas is simply CHOICE. If I hire you to work for me and do not like the fact that you can't say Merry Christmas, you have the CHOICE to quit.

3. I know - they decided they needed to celebrate something on the same day. And we're not saying it's wrong to say "happy holidays." We just hate the fact that they are removing "CHRIST" out of a nationally celebrated holiday because they say it's "Christian" when it really isn't anymore.
4. I know it's not copyrighted. We don't want it to be holiday specific - we just wnat people to have the right to say it if they want to (in the context of employees). Some people really don't have the choice to quit. Many people haev different financial situations, and jobs shouldn't dictate what people have a right to say and not to say. They can't limit our freedom of speech.

[Spirited Away]

3. I know - but many don't celebrate it for the same reasons. Culture celebrates it for Santa Clause and presents, etc... and Christians celebrate Christ's birth. I don't have any hatred, and I honestly don't know where you read that. Us Christians ( at least most of us) don't have any hatred - we are just extremely disappointed in this turn of events. Look at it this way - just recently in Indiana, the word "Jesus" is not supposed to be used in Congress' prayers. And then there's the whole "no God in education" issue. The nation is pushing us out completely. To be honest, it's getting quite frustrating.

I got "hate" from this:

3.  I know - they decided they needed to celebrate something on the same day....
We just hate the fact that they are removing "CHRIST" out of a nationally celebrated holiday because they say it's "Christian" when it really isn't anymore.

Who "decided" to celebrate on the same day? Lets clear this up a bit. CHRISTIANS decided to CONVERT Pagans and what better way to do it than to PRETEND that Christ's birth is on December 25th, which is Yule, a celebration that went on CENTURIES BEFORE CHRIST.

Why are you disappointed in something that was never meant to be in the first place? Remember that our Founding Fathers insisted on Seperation of Church and State, and the State provides public education. Do you see where I'm going with this? By the way, schools can teach about religion, just not preach for them. God is still introduced, and if students are interested they have the choice to learn more about God on their own. If students are forced to listen to a teacher preach about God, where's choice in that? Where's freedom?

For example, this is what is happening:

QUOTE([url=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47634)
]After a series of reports by WND, however, Wal-Mart officials satisfied demands by the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, which had called for a national boycott after accusing the retail giant of discriminating against Christmas while promoting other seasonal holidays by name, such as Kwanzaa and Hanukkah.
Christmas is rejected and not any other holidays.

Discriminating against Christmas? HOW? For saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS is DISCRIMINATING CHRISTMAS? And saying Merry Christmas isn't discriminating other religions?!?! People are so full of themselves and does logic not exist? So if you come to my house and I wish you Happy Holidays, I'd be discriminating Christmas even though I don't celebrate it? Oh, that must means Hallmark is discriminating Christmas because it prints Happy Holidays cards. Walmart must also be discriminating against Atheists and Agnostics, too, because they don't wish us a merry or happy or not happy merry anything!

4. I suppose so, but imagine a single mother parenting two kids and that is her ONLY income (and there is no hope of getting another job), she doesn't have much of a choice. About people not being allowed to say "Merry Christmas", one of our local radio personalities called Target and said "Merry Christmas" and hte operator responded "Happy Holidays"... and it went back and forth like that, and eventually, the woman said, "Sir, what can I help you with?" and he responded, "I just hoped that in wishing you a 'Merry Christmas' that I would get one in response." ..and she said, "Sir, that's not my job."

She doesn't have a choice? No one is going to gut her if she step up to her supervisor and say I quit because you do not allow me to say merry Christmas. Even if her situation is dire, she STILL HAS CHOICE. She can stay, suck it up and she'll be able to feed her kids, or she can leave and be in trouble for a while. See the two choices, not much, I know, but there they are.

I would have said more nasty things to the man had he put me in that situation. No one's going to force me to say Merry Christmas just as I'm not going to force anyone else to say Happy Holidays. If my employer, the YMCA, requires that we greet with Merry Christmas, I'd have choice to suck it up and do, or leave, or continue on with my Happy Holidays until they fire me. And I would be in a dire situation being a commuting full time student and all. Simple.

About the protesting, that is in response to the non-use of "Merry Christmas." I still don't understand why "Merry Christmas" was removed when there wasn't any protesting about it. Christmas is a national, cultural, and religious holiday. There is no excuse to ban it.

Because it's a choice to target ALL groups of people, not just Christians and since Holidays include Christmas, it makes sense to use it. Also, the only day that Walmart observes is Christmas. HOLIDAYS isn't religion specific. It can apply to Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Agnostics, Pagans, and of course Christians... etc. That isn't discriminating. The excuse not to use it is simply giving respect to all religions, not just one.

My point is - Removing "Merry Christmas" takes away our freedom of expression. Using Happy Holidays isn't bad, it's just the act of taking away Merry Christmas that is frustrating.

But it isn't taken away, it exists in HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

[*digital.fragrance*]

Who "decided" to celebrate on the same day? Lets clear this up a bit. CHRISTIANS decided to CONVERT Pagans and what better way to do it than to PRETEND that Christ's birth is on December 25th, which is Yule, a celebration that went on CENTURIES BEFORE CHRIST.

Why are you disappointed in something that was never meant to be in the first place? Remember that our Founding Fathers insisted on Seperation of Church and State, and the State provides public education. Do you see where I'm going with this? By the way, schools can teach about religion, just not preach for them. God is still introduced, and if students are interested they have the choice to learn more about God on their own. If students are forced to listen to a teacher preach about God, where's choice in that? Where's freedom?

Discriminating against Christmas? HOW? For saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS is DISCRIMINATING CHRISTMAS? And saying Merry Christmas isn't discriminating other religions?!?! People are so full of themselves and does logic not exist? So if you come to my house and I wish you Happy Holidays, I'd be discriminating Christmas even though I don't celebrate it? Oh, that must means Hallmark is discriminating Christmas because it prints Happy Holidays cards. Walmart must also be discriminating against Atheists and Agnostics, too, because they don't wish us a merry or happy or not happy merry anything!

She doesn't have a choice? No one is going to gut her if she step up to her supervisor and say I quit because you do not allow me to say merry Christmas. Even if her situation is dire, she STILL HAS CHOICE. She can stay, suck it up and she'll be able to feed her kids, or she can leave and be in trouble for a while. See the two choices, not much, I know, but there they are.

I would have said more nasty things to the man had he put me in that situation. No one's going to force me to say Merry Christmas just as I'm not going to force anyone else to say Happy Holidays. If my employer, the YMCA, requires that we greet with Merry Christmas, I'd have choice to suck it up and do, or leave, or continue on with my Happy Holidays until they fire me. And I would be in a dire situation being a commuting full time student and all. Simple.
Because it's a choice to target ALL groups of people, not just Christians and since Holidays include Christmas, it makes sense to use it. Also, the only day that Walmart observes is Christmas. HOLIDAYS isn't religion specific. It can apply to Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Agnostics, Pagans, and of course Christians... etc. That isn't discriminating. The excuse not to use it is simply giving respect to all religions, not just one.

But it isn't taken away, it exists in HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

Okay, I apoligize for using a strong word - I didn't intend it to mean hatred. My fault.

Separation of church and state was intended to protect our future by making a national church impossible (like that of the Anglican Church of England). The founding fathers were protecting America from becoming a government like England in the 1790's. That's why so many people came here in the first place - for religious freedom. Public schools, at least where I'm from, can't talk about God. They can get in serious trouble if they do, and then they teach evolution like it's the only way (this is where Intelligent Design comes in, but not in this topic). Can you at least see where we are coming from? After 2 + centuries of complete freedom, the nation is shoving us out (figuratively, of course).

Is it bad to celebrate something on the same day? It's impossible to set a date on when Christ was born (with the calender's and translations being so different) - yet Christ was born, and we might as well celebrate sometime.

Did I say somone was discriminating by saying Happy Holidays? I have nothing against "Happy Holidays" itself. No - Walmart forbid their employees to say Merry Christmas, while they allowed them to say Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanza, and Happy Holidays. Excluding "Merry Christmas" and nothing else is discrimination.

About the woman and her choice - she should be protected from a situation like that... taking away her freedom is taking advantage of a person in that situation.

The man wasn't forcing the operator from Target - he just found out what he wanted, that Target wasn't allowing their employees to say "Merry Christmas."

I have nothing against saying "Happy Holidays." It's just fact that they are doing it instead of Christmas (like they used to) is bothering me. They can say Happy Hannukah, or Happy Kwanza..... just not Merry Christmas.

Not allowing employees to say "Merry Christmas" is taking away some freedom, no matter how much the term "Happy Holidays" encompasses. It's still something they can't say because it's not "politically correct."

[Spirited Away]

Okay, I apoligize for using a strong word - I didn't intend it to mean hatred.  My fault.

Separation of church and state was intended to protect our future by making a national church impossible (like that of the Anglican Church of England).  The founding fathers were protecting America from becoming a government like England in the 1790's.  That's why so many people came here in the first place - for religious freedom.  Public schools, at least where I'm from, can't talk about God.  They can get in serious trouble if they do, and then they teach evolution like it's the only way (this is where Intelligent Design comes in, but not in this topic).  Can you at least see where we are coming from?  After 2 + centuries of complete freedom, the nation is shoving us out (figuratively, of course).

Yes yes, no need for a history lesson. I've said the same things in the debate forum too many times already. And though I understand you may not have mean "hate" in that context, you can't say the same for other Christians. I know for certain that there are Christians who truly hate it, or else why would they go through the trouble of protesting?

No, I don't see where Christians get the idea that it's okay to be angry at folks who say Happy Holidays when they have the same freedom to say Merry Christmas whenever they want to. I would like to know which US shools forbid students to pray to God or to talk about God without evangelizing. I would agree with you that your freedom is threaten if that is the case, however, I've never heard of any school that forbid just talking about God. Maybe you could tell me since I haven't read about it. After two centuries of religious freedom, Americans can finally SHARE the Winter Holidays and not just celebrate for the sole reason of Christ's supposed birthday.

Is it bad to celebrate something on the same day?  It's impossible to set a date on when Christ was born (with the calender's and translations being so different) - yet Christ was born, and we might as well celebrate sometime.

I've already mentioned this, though it's not possible to agree on a specific date, it is a fact accepted by all credible religious institution that Christ was not born on December 25th and that the reason December 25th was chosen was for the conversion of Pagans. Again, this cannot be refuted. Yes, it should be celebrated sometimes, but when the Church thought it'd be convenient to celebrate it on Decemeber 25th, they should have taken into consideration that not everyone will want to hold celebration in the name of Christ since not everyone is Christian. It's kind of like first come first serve. However, the first comer in this case was "shoved out" of the way by force ("figuratively, of course").

Did I say somone was discriminating by saying Happy Holidays?  I have nothing against "Happy Holidays" itself.  No - Walmart forbid their employees to say Merry Christmas, while they allowed them to say Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanza, and Happy Holidays.  Excluding "Merry Christmas" and nothing else is discrimination.

You didn't, but the SOURCE you provided did. Don't tell me you didn't read the source you gave. Here, I'll quote it again.

]After a series of reports by WND, however, Wal-Mart officials satisfied demands by the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, which had called for a national boycott after accusing the retail giant of discriminating against Christmas while promoting other seasonal holidays by name, such as Kwanzaa and Hanukkah.

About the woman and her choice - she should be protected from a situation like that... taking away her freedom is taking advantage of a person in that situation.

If you think the woman should be protected from that, the people at Walmart should be protected from angry "Merry Christmas" loving Christians, too. I mean, if she deserves more choices, then shouldn't Walmart, too?

The man wasn't forcing the operator from Target - he just found out what he wanted, that Target wasn't allowing their employees to say "Merry Christmas."

No, you said the lady said "it's not my job". It's another way of saying, I don't want to have to wish you a Merry Christmas. Have you, for a moment after hearing that guy on the radio, thought that maybe the lady isn't Christian and is adverse to saying Merry Christmas? No. Everyone assumes that she isn't allowed to say Merry Christmas. Even if that is the case, had she been a real Christian, she wouldn't have mind wishing the man a Merry Christmas. If she is terminated for that, she could sue and I'm sure the nice, Christmas-loving radio man would have paid for her lawyer expenses. This reminds of a story when I was a hostess at Pappadeaux Seafood Kitchen. A customer spilled his drink on the table and screamed at me to clean it up and I told him, you guessed it, "it's not my job, sir, but I'll get someone in a second". Hmm, I could never stand those uptight snobs.

I have nothing against saying "Happy Holidays."  It's just fact that they are doing it instead of Christmas (like they used to) is bothering me.  They can say Happy Hannukah, or Happy Kwanza..... just not Merry Christmas.

So they used to say Merry Christmas ALL THE TIME, maybe it's time for a new way to celebrate. A way that's inclusive, not exclusive.

Not allowing employees to say "Merry Christmas" is taking away some freedom, no matter how much the term "Happy Holidays" encompasses.  It's still something they can't say because it's not "politically correct."

That's true, but I've yet to read anything that says Walmart or any company that forbids its employees to say Merry Christmas. I've heard that Walmart encourages its employees to say Happy Holidays, but I've yet to hear anything about it completely forbiding employees from Merry Christmas. Where are you guys getting these news?

[*digital.fragrance*]

Yes yes, no need for a history lesson. I've said the same things in the debate forum too many times already. And though I understand you may not have mean "hate" in that context, you can't say the same for other Christians. I know for certain that there are Christians who truly hate it, or else why would they go through the trouble of protesting?

And if you read my previous post, I said the "most" Christians do not hate this. They are extremely perplexed. Big difference. And I can speak for a lot - they are my friends, my fellow church members - my peers. I can't speak for all, but I can for some. We protest because we feel as if anything "Christian" is being taken out of everything - schools, government buildings, stores... heck, even nativity scenes have come under fire. If you don't want to see see those, just ignore them.

No, I don't see where Christians get the idea that it's okay to be angry at folks who say Happy Holidays when they have the same freedom to say Merry Christmas whenever they want to. I would like to know which US shools forbid students to pray to God or to talk about God without evangelizing. I would agree with you that your freedom is threaten if that is the case, however, I've never heard of any school that forbid just talking about God. Maybe you could tell me since I haven't read about it. After two centuries of religious freedom, Americans can finally SHARE the Winter Holidays and not just celebrate for the sole reason of Christ's supposed birthday.

Okay, schools forbid teachers from talking about God. My fault - no clarification.

That's true, but I've yet to read anything that says Walmart or any company that forbids its employees to say Merry Christmas. I've heard that Walmart encourages its employees to say Happy Holidays, but I've yet to hear anything about it completely forbiding employees from Merry Christmas. Where are you guys getting these news?

[

About discrimination - you misunderstood me - leaving out Merry Christmas and not other holidays is discrimination. Walmart did that - check my source.

No, I don't see where Christians get the idea that it's okay to be angry at folks who say Happy Holidays when they have the same freedom to say Merry Christmas whenever they want to.

I didn't say that - we are not angry at that. We are angry that people aren't allowed to say Merry Christmas - like that Target operator I mentoned before and WalMart employees.

No, you said the lady said "it's not my job". It's another way of saying, I don't want to have to wish you a Merry Christmas. Have you, for a moment after hearing that guy on the radio, thought that maybe the lady isn't Christian and is adverse to saying Merry Christmas? No. Everyone assumes that she isn't allowed to say Merry Christmas. Even if that is the case, had she been a real Christian, she wouldn't have mind wishing the man a Merry Christmas. If she is terminated for that, she could sue and I'm sure the nice, Christmas-loving radio man would have paid for her lawyer expenses.

Or it could be a better say to say, "I'm not allowed." In the context of hte radio discussion, trust me, it was obvious. I suppose it's just the way you can take things. The lady could have been a Christian and in that case, this chapter in the Bible explains it all - Romans 13. It tells us to submit to our authority.

I've already mentioned this, though it's not possible to agree on a specific date, it is a fact accepted by all credible religious institution that Christ was not born on December 25th and that the reason December 25th was chosen was for the conversion of Pagans. Again, this cannot be refuted. Yes, it should be celebrated sometimes, but when the Church thought it'd be convenient to celebrate it on Decemeber 25th, they should have taken into consideration that not everyone will want to hold celebration in the name of Christ since not everyone is Christian. It's kind of like first come first serve. However, the first comer in this case was "shoved out" of the way by force ("figuratively, of course").

Okay, so what's so bad about a religion doing what they believe in? For Christians, we are supposed to share God's love and tell them about how Jesus died on the cross for them. I guess Yule wasn't a good celebration because the World switched to Christmas. There was no "conspiracy" to get the world to
switch holidays.... how did we force them to get out of the way....?

If everyone fights for what he/she believes in, we'd have chaos. When it's a logical, meaningful fight then sure, that's admirable, but as I've pointed out before, there's nothing logical about this.

No it's absolutly narrow-minded and self-centered. I'm just saying, people seem to rarely care about things. I think that it's good they have passion for what they believe in, everyone should in my opinion.

So now I'm not logical... and I'm narrow-minded, self-centered. Man, you guys really now how to flame somebody. I'm sticking up for my beliefs - I'm not trying to make "christmas" the only holiday. I love "Happy Holidays," and it's a great inclusive term. I just wish people were permitted to say "Merry Christmas" at their jobs.

[Spirited Away]

1) And if you read my previous post, I said the "most" Christians do not hate this.  They are extremely perplexed. Big difference.  And I can speak for a lot - they are my friends, my fellow church members - my peers.  I can't speak for all, but I can for some.  We protest because we feel as if anything "Christian" is being taken out of everything - schools, government buildings, stores... heck, even nativity scenes have come under fire.  If you don't want to see see those, just ignore them. 

2) Okay, schools forbid teachers from talking about God. My fault - no clarification. 


3) About discrimination - you misunderstood me - leaving out Merry Christmas and not other holidays is discrimination. Walmart did that - check my source.


4) I didn't say that - we are not angry at that.  We are angry that people aren't allowed to say Merry Christmas - like that Target operator I mentoned before and WalMart employees.
Or it could be a better say to say, "I'm not allowed."  In the context of hte radio discussion, trust me, it was obvious.  I suppose it's just the way you can take things.  The lady could have been a Christian and in that case, this chapter in the Bible explains it all - Romans 13.  It tells us to submit to our authority. 


5) Okay, so what's so bad about a religion doing what they believe in?  For Christians, we are supposed to share God's love and tell them about how Jesus died on the cross for them.  I guess Yule wasn't a good celebration because the World switched to Christmas.  There was no "conspiracy" to get the world to
switch holidays....  how did we force them to get out of the way....?


6) So know I'm not logical... and I'm narrow-minded, self-centered.  Man, you guys really now how to flame somebody.  I'm sticking up for my beliefs - I'm not trying to make "christmas" the only holiday.  I love "Happy Holidays," and it's a great inclusive term.  I just wish people were permitted to say "Merry Christmas" at their jobs.

1) You said most Christians do not hate this, yet you do not know most Christians. Someone mentioned that Christianity is the dominant religion in the world, do you know how many Christians that is? Your number of friends and family and fellow church goers does not tantamount to most Christians. You must also consider that there are people in the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, Reverends, American Family Association in Tupelo, Miss., and even people who writes books to protest the use of Happy Holidays. [source]
And in your logic, if these Christians don't want to see or say "Happy Holidays", just ignore it!

2)... no, you've misinterpreted the law. Teachers CAN talk about God just as they can talk about Buddha and/or Shiva. Going further than this would violate the establisment clause (seperation of Church and State). They can speak about religion because it's our history and culture. Students have the right to dig deeper if they are interested on their own.

3) But CHRISTMAS wasn't left out. Again, Happy Holidays is INCLUSIVE, not exclusive, thus there is no discrimination.

4) Again, have you thought about the possibility that she simply didn't want to say Merry Christmas? Though Romans 13 tells you to submit to your authority, it doesn't tell you to submit to authority at the price of God. Also Romans 13 says you should owe no man anything but love and that he who loves fulfilled the law. Thus, if she were Christian and loved in the contexted of this discussion, nothing would have stopped her from wishing evil-radio-man a Merry Christmas. She would have fulfilled a "higher" spiritual law.

5) Easy for the ones with Money and Power to say that people turned to them in the end because they didn't have enough to go on. You're saying that Yule wasn't good enough so people turned to Christianity, right? I'm guessing you're not at all familiar with the ways of conversion and the history of Christianity in Ancient Rome. Pagans, better known to Christians as heathens and witches, were *gasp* discriminated! Emperor Constantine FORCED pagans to be baptized and accept Christianity. Yea, right, according to you then, being forced is simply "switching" to Christanity. Right. Lets continue on though. These Pagans begin attend church after a while because to them, they're still worshiping idol-gods. While this is going on Church adopted PAGAN TRADITIONS of celebrating Yule—calling it Christmas, gift giving—calling it gift giving to baby Jesus, the mother-Goddess and the birth of her child0—callling it the nativity scenes, the evergreen tree that symbolizes immortality and fertility—calling it a Christmas tree. I assure you, any educated and true theologian or historian will tell you this history. You needn't hear this and believe me. And so, it looks more like Christians "switched" to paganism to appease the Pagan in order to convert them. What sly planning.

And not to mention how easy it could be to "switch" a pagan when they will believe anything clergymen say because they can't read and write latin.

So, how did Christians force them? How else do you think? Read up on history.

6) Again, would you tell me which company doesn't allow employees to say Merry Christmas? That radio man example is faulty. The lady never admited that she is not allowed to say Merry Christmas, therefore we can assume that she simply didn't want to.