"under God", should it be taken out?? Options

[starling]

The case is up before the Supreme Court. So what do you think??

[*disco infiltrator*]

And like I've said, more than once, it makes those of us who do not believe in God feel inferior and like we don't belong in this country.

[Joss-eh-lime]

And like I've said, more than once, it makes those of us who do not believe in God feel inferior and like we don't belong in this country.

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

[NoSex]

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

Which god? Your god?

I'm confused.

Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[kayemo]

Which god? Your god?

I'm confused.

Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You forget that Christian is not the only religion that believes in God (and if you're going to say, "which god?" even though I'm sure you very well know which one, the ones that Christians believe in). At the time Puritanism was also popular. The country was founded so that the people here could worship God however they chose, yet not other gods (an example would be Buddha). Most of the settlers that first came to America were being forced to become Roman Catholics when they did not believe in catholicism. If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. It's a matter of respect.

[NoSex]

You forget that Christian is not the only religion that believes in God (and if you're going to say, "which god?" even though I'm sure you very well know which one, the ones that Christians believe in).

I think you missed the point. It was a rhetorical question to underline the problem with identifing the Christian God in our national pledge when our heritage, our founding fathers, and our past and current population are all comprised of drasticly different religious and theological sentiments. Not all of them ever believed in the same god.

At the time Puritanism was also popular.

Puritanism was never popular. The people you are refering to as "puritan" never actually identified themselves as such. It was a derogatory term used by antagonists which opposed the Protestant Reformation. These people are often refered to Pilgrims as well. These pilgrims arrived here in the Americas around 1920, at least 11 years after Jamestown was first settled. There reasons for migration and settlement were blaringly different than the majority of original settelers who were involved in business.

The country was founded so that the people here could worship God however they chose, yet not other gods (an example would be Buddha).

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson created a list of 27 grievances that he, and his fellow settelers, believed had been done onto the New World by King George III.

Jefferson writes, "Such has been the patient Sufferance so these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the Present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let the Facts be submitted to a candid World."

He then continued to list all charges against the King and the British parliment. He is making the case for independence. Charges include military harrasement, unfair taxes, unjust trials, and lack of equal representation. But, of all the 27 charges, not a single one includes religious oppression.

Your charge that is country was founded so that men could worship freely a christian God, but not an eastern God such as Buddha is highly fallacious. Your confusion sits with the Puritan movement. Yes, the Puritans were zealous Protestants. Yes, they wanted everyone to believe in a single Protestant (Christian) God. However, they did not want to build a new country around this idea. This was not their intent in moving to the New World.

Most of the settlers that first came to America were being forced to become Roman Catholics when they did not believe in catholicism.

Wrong again. None of them were being foreced to believe in catholicism. You truly have a distorted conception of the Protestant Reformation and puritan migration. As well as early colonial settlement in the Americas.

I'll try to make this simple.

1. Jamestown was the earliest and most significant of english-speaking colonial settlement. It was a colonization based on business. The land and colony was owned by the Virginia Company of London and of Plymouth. John Smith, famous English settler and famous foundation behind Jamestown, was granted charter by King James I (Hence, Jamestown). Under the Virgina Company, the area was to be colonized for profit. Most of the first settlers first came to America for business and profit.

2. In western Europe, a movement had been stirring ever since Martin Luther challenged the catholic church. This movement was refered to as the Protestant Reformation. The idea behind it is that radical Protestants would "purify" the church by eliminating Catholic and "Popery" influence. This proved rather difficult as most powers held strong Catholic ideals. The Protestant Reformation and those involved were looked down upon by the majority of the population and their movement was in bad shape. They were in disfavor, however they were not being forced to convert, tortured, or persecuted simply because they were protestants.

3. The Protestants who still saw hope in Reformation traveled out of England. Not because they felt that they need more religious freedom, but because they felt that there was far too much religious freedom in England. They believed that the state should abolish all Catholic influence and impose Protestant and more "pure" ideals.

4. Yes. They traveled from England, but not to the Americas. Not at first. They originaly settled in southern Holland, in the Netherlands. The belief was that if they did it right they could serve as an example to the rest of the world, and more specificly England. However, the highly radical protestants felt threatened by Dutch influence. So, fearing their children's spiritual and cultural health, they fled to the States in hopes of a fresher start. The idea what that they would ring in Reformation in England from the states. They thought that Britian would follow their example. The plan was then to abandon the new found colonies, and to migrate back to England and celebrate victory. Victory never came, winter did. Alot of them died.

5. They weren't being forced to be Catholic. They wanted to force everyone to be Protestant.

If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. It's a matter of respect.

I'm not even so sure what that means.
What exactly am I respecting again? Why can't you respect your neighbors? Why do you have to hold onto a perverted version of our county's history, national motto, and pledge? We want to represent and respect all people, of all color, and all background. We want to unite America and it's people. We don't want to devide. We would never want to send the message to anyone that if you don't in this specific God that you might not be part of America. Nor did our founding fathers.

In 1956, at the heart of Red Scare, we changed our motto to "In God We Trust." In just two more years, paper money sported the new motto, and our pledge had been changed to include the phrase, "In God." All to prove that killing communism was right. Because communists were atheists, and we loved Jesus. God was on our side!

In 1789, we, as a country, adopted our first motto. It read, "E pluribus unum." In latin, this meant, "Out of Many, One."