professor and student, on christianity.... it's really good Options

[expoised]

"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could....God doesn't."
[No answer]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student, "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice, he asked, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and
whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The first Christian sits...defeated.
Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, yet another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The second Christian continues.
"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273¡ÆC. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light... but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you... give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... ohhhhh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability himself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the
absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues, "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil.1 What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."2
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
The Christian replies, "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out into laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind? No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind."
The class is in chaos.
The Christian sits.

[AngryBaby]

i heard that story before, it got handed to me in a panflet at an airport, by a christian group. it was turned into a little comic book thing. by the very moment i got it i knew that the christian dude was gonna be set up to win his argument. thats why i wanna know if this is real or not. if its just a written story, or something that really happened.

maybe its just me but i kinda missed the point of the cold is absence of heat thing. i mean, if we instead called cold absence of heat big deal what would that change?=/. they both had okay arguments, i just wish the atheist dude spoke as long as the christian dude did. because ive heard people with better points here on cb about the morality issue than in that

is there anyone in here that has seen the professors mind?

lol that was goofy, guaranteed if he wanted some proof, he could bust the head open of the professor right then and there and find a brain. but you cant necessarily find proof of god.

[Heewee]

lol that was goofy, guaranteed if he wanted some proof, he could bust the head open of the professor right then and there and find a brain. but you cant necessarily find proof of god.

That wasn't the point. He didn't say the professor's brain, he said mind. Sure, you'd be able to look at a brain and see all the nerves and how things work but you wouldn't be able to see, touch, taste, smell, or feel what he was actually thinking....in his mind.

[Spirited Away]

That wasn't the point. He didn't say the professor's brain, he said mind. Sure, you'd be able to look at a brain and see all the nerves and how things work but you wouldn't be able to see, touch, taste, smell, or feel what he was actually thinking....in his mind.

But a mind can be proven with logic even without being seen. The ability to reason, to think, to have feelings, to be subjectively conscious can all be proven. This can be universally agreed with, I think, though we cannot say the same about faith.

[Heewee]

But a mind can be proven with logic even without being seen. The ability to reason, to think, to have feelings, to be subjectively conscious can all be proven. This can be universally agreed with, I think, though we cannot say the same about faith.

Actually, I could probably find many examples of people acting on complete faith. And anyways, isn't the absent of faith pessimism?

[Spirited Away]

Actually, I could probably find many examples of people acting on complete faith. And anyways, isn't the absent of faith pessimism?

What do you mean by "people acting on complete faith"? What I meant in my response is that a mind's existence can be proven with logic. I'm not sure what you mean by your response to mine.

Faith isn't the same as hope. When you lose hope, you may be a pessimist, but when you lose faith—religion wise, you may be a skeptic, but not pessimist unless you truly think the worst of everything. Those without faith do not generally think the worst of everything. That would be a truly faulty view.

[Heewee]

What do you mean by "people acting on complete faith"? What I meant in my response is that a mind's existence can be proven with logic. I'm not sure what you mean by your response to mine.

Faith isn't the same as hope. When you lose hope, you may be a pessimist, but when you lose faith—religion wise, you may be a skeptic, but not pessimist unless you truly think the worst of everything. Those without faith do not generally think the worst of everything. That would be a truly faulty view.

I acknowledge that a mind's existence can be proven with logic. There are many different interpretations of faith. These are all the many definitions:
1 Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2 Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3 Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4 often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5 The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6 A set of principles or beliefs

What I meant in my post about "finding many examples of people acting on complete faith" is that some people will go out on a limb and take a chance at something even though the odds are against them.....they have faith that things will work out. Thinking about this further, there might not be a clear line to prove the true existence of faith...we can make interpretations but we can't prove what people are thinking, therefore we can't prove that they have faith. However, that also means that it can't be disproven either.

[Spirited Away]

I acknowledge that a mind's existence can be proven with logic. There are many different interpretations of faith. These are all the many definitions:
1 Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2 Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3 Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4 often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5 The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6 A set of principles or beliefs

What I meant in my post about "finding many examples of people acting on complete faith" is that some people will go out on a limb and take a chance at something even though the odds are against them.....they have faith that things will work out. Thinking about this further, there might not be a clear line to prove the true existence of faith...we can make interpretations but we can't prove what people are thinking, therefore we can't prove that they have faith. However, that also means that it can't be disproven either.

While I agree with all those interpretations, I must remind you that we're discussing the religious significance of the word faith. So, once more, to lose faith of your religious belief means you've become a skeptic. Skepticism is not tantamount to pessimism the same way that hope is not the same as faith.

One can say people act on faith, others may say they act on impulse, instinct (eg nature), or even reasoning. Sure, one may choose to leave things to faith, but others may leave things to chance (ergo, the famous saying). However, even this rendition of faith does not fit into the context of our discussion, which has more to do with people having faith in their religion.

We need not to prove the existence of faith within the mind, the problem here is proving that faith's credibility with logic.


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i'll leave this to the insomiac known to me as Mr. Acid. Must sleep.

[Heewee]

While I agree with all those interpretations, I must remind you that we're discussing the religious significance of the word faith. So, once more, to lose faith of your religious belief means you've become a skeptic. Skepticism is not tantamount to pessimism the same way that hope is not the same as faith.

One can say people act on faith, others may say they act on impulse, instinct (eg nature), or even reasoning. Sure, one may choose to leave things to faith, but others may leave things to chance (ergo, the famous saying). However, even this rendition of faith does not fit into the context of our discussion, which has more to do with people having faith in their religion.

We need not to prove the existence of faith within the mind, the problem here is proving that faith's credibility with logic.
------
i'll leave this to the insomiac known to me as Mr. Acid. Must sleep.

Okay, then referring faith to religion, people do show and practice their religions with feelings. They attend either their church, sinigouge (sp?), masque, temple, or other place of gathering. They celebrate religious holidays and do other certain things that are related to their religion. Some people do this because they truly have faith in their religion, and others do it because they are forced to do it by somebody else. I guess that it can be "universally agreed" that faith, as far as religion is concerned, exists but it can't be proven or disproven in any one specific person.

PS: I'm off to bed too

[Spirited Away]

Okay, then referring faith to religion, people do show and practice their religions with feelings. They attend either their church, sinigouge (sp?), masque, temple, or other place of gathering. They celebrate religious holidays and do other certain things that are related to their religion. Some people do this because they truly have faith in their religion, and others do it because they are forced to do it by somebody else. I guess that it can be "universally agreed" that faith, as far as religion is concerned, exists but it can't be proven or disproven in any one specific person.

PS: I'm off to bed too 

Faith in religion exists in whom? There are those who have no faith in religions, such as Atheists and many free-thinkers. How would you explain that? Again, there isn't a need to prove or disprove that faith exists in certain persons, the point of this is proving a faith's credibility. As in, whether or not a follower of a religion has logical reasons to have that faith, i.e. what logical reasons are there to have faith that God exists.

Actually, faith may be proven subjectively. Objectively and logically, though, that is still very much a controversy.