Christian Propaganda Options

[*Libertie*]

I used the search, so I hope this isn't a repeat thread.

Today was my church's July 4th celebration service. The pastor took this opportunity to put George W. Bush on a pedestal, slam gay marriage, condemn abortion, and basically tell us all how to vote.

He also had the audacity to tell us that everything we've ever learned in the history books is absolutely wrong, and proceeded to explain how the U.S. *really* became a nation.

He threw outrageous percentages without citing his sources (ie., he told us that 90% of Americans believe in Christianity!), he went on and on with random facts that he couldn't prove. And the congregation flocks to him, because he's the PASTOR and that means they should do anything he says.

How many pastors, conservative and liberal alike, sway a majority of their congregations into voting the way they want - no, "the way GOD wants!" - every year? And there's nothing we can do about it, because it's the pastor, and he can say whatever he wants to say as long as the congregation doesn't have a problem with it.

My question - why are people so easily swayed? Why do people believe such nonsense without being given a reason to believe it? And why do pastors take advantage of their time behind a pulpit as an opportunity to spout propaganda to thousands and thousands every year?

.:edit:. Yes, yes, another religion thread. I apologize, but I'm not making any outrageous claims, I just wanted some input before I write a letter to my pastor. :P

[strice]

i guess because their religion tells them that pastors are honest people? anyways, these pastors probably think the rubbish they are spewing is a favour to society. glad i was brought up atheist.

[ichigofan]

because since the beginning of time man has been afraid of the consequences of betraying "god" but they dont understand that if "god" loves you sooo much as the pastor says every friggin sunday then he/she/it would love you even if your pro-abortion and gay marriages.

[*Libertie*]

That's what I thought. I don't understand why many pastors act as if a person is going to hell just for having a different political stance.

[sadolakced acid]

the two ways to take control of a country are through it's military and through it's army.

it can never stop

[starlette]

wow. your pastor sounds like hes full of shit. I'm Christian, and I dont agree with all of those things...so maybe ists just your pastor. Not all Christian are preachy like that. But I do think its wrong that he spoke in that manner. Maybe hes really deep down a conspiracy theorist.

[*Libertie*]

I've been to a few churches where the pastor is very reserved and doesn't force-feed propaganda to his congregation. I wish all churches were like that. But I don't want to switch churches because of this; I very much enjoy playing in the church orchestra and don't want to give that up.. plus it gives me a gateway to meet young flutists who take lessons from me (I know, that may sound greedy.. -.-'). I just wish he would learn to contain himself and stop trying to make people change if there's nothing wrong with them. I'm honestly thinking about writing him a letter expressing my concerns.

[*kryogenix*]

If I recall correctly, the 1990 census said that about 85% of Americans were christian, so your pastor wasn't far off percentage-wise (didn't bother to look it up so I might be dead wrong, I just remember weird facts like that though).

because since the beginning of time man has been afraid of the consequences of betraying "god" but they dont understand that if "god" loves you sooo much as the pastor says every friggin sunday then he/she/it would love you even if your pro-abortion and gay marriages.

God loves everyone, even sinners. That doesn't mean there aren't any consequences, but God will still love you.

[bebopspike14]

You have to understand, after the reformation, the pastors became extremely fiery and became empassioned with a great religous fervor. Catholic sermons remained solemn and traditional, but the protestants had the congregation on the edge of their seats, spouting what would be catholic heresy.

[technicolour]

Today was my church's July 4th celebration service. The pastor took this opportunity to put George W. Bush on a pedestal, slam gay marriage, condemn abortion, and basically tell us all how to vote.

George Bush stands for the Christian ways.

Gay Marriage = The Bible says that's a no-no.
Abortion = Murder. That's a no-no as well.

And there's nothing we can do about it, because it's the pastor, and he can say whatever he wants to say as long as the congregation doesn't have a problem with it.

You could tell him to stfu. But then he'll throw more of this at you which is probably something you dont want.

He threw outrageous percentages without citing his sources (ie., he told us that 90% of Americans believe in Christianity!), he went on and on with random facts that he couldn't prove. And the congregation flocks to him, because he's the PASTOR and that means they should do anything he says.

That percent is a little off. People probably "flock" to him cause they think he's, oh, i don't know, RIGHT!.

You have to understand, after the reformation, the pastors became extremely fiery and became empassioned with a great religous fervor. Catholic sermons remained solemn and traditional, but the protestants had the congregation on the edge of their seats, spouting what would be catholic heresy.

We are protestant. ^ that's right. [the quote]

God loves everyone, even sinners. That doesn't mean there aren't any consequences, but God will still love you.

Amen.

[Mulder]

even though im jewish/agnostic, it is true that about 90% of Americans being christian. and, even though i dont agree with any of this, christian doctrine does say that gay marriage is wrong, and abortion is murder under any circumstances. so....even though i really dont agree with what your pastors doing.....hes just spouting christian beliefs. thank god im not christian then. (i have absolutely nothing agaisnt christians)

[*suddenly she*]

your pastor sounds a little , if you don't mind me saying it.

the thing is, maybe the census said 85%, but that's only the percentage of how many people claim to be.

[crazymonkey1785]

well, i'm a christian and at my church, they don't do that, sometimes, you just have to do some research for yourself and it doesn't matter what your pastor thinks, you have to have your OWN opinion, the people in the church should have their own opinion, i believe that gay marriages are wrong, and i believe abortions are wrong, but YOU have to make up your own opinions, you have to look at the bible to see what's right and what's wrong, don't base it on whether your pastor thinks it's wrong or not!! you have to look at the BIBLE to see what's right or wrong!

[Paradox of Life]

^ Abortion and gay marriages are not right or wrong and the bible cannot say what is right or wrong.

And like ichigofan said, if God loved you so much, he'd let you have your own opinions. Peoples' minds vary and we shouldn't be forced to think abortion is WRONG and gay marriages are WRONG.

I'm not Christian, but I think that maybe it's just your pastor who may be a little whack. One can choose to take advantage of their job and abuse it the way your pastor did or they can use it for what it was made for. Not for false political speeches, but for informing people of the wisdom in Christianity and the Bible!

Why are people so easily swayed? I think it's a psychological reason where people want to fit in. That's why peer pressure is such an issue and people will adjust their mindsets to fit with others so they can feel like they're not alone. I'm not saying this is how it always is, but I think it's part of the reason. They see other people listening to everything the pastor says, so they think "Oh well, if the pastor and everyone else thinks abortion and gay marriages are wrong, I'm going to think so too."

Was this in general or am I misinterpreting the question?

[technicolour]

Abortion and gay marriages are not right or wrong and the bible cannot say what is right or wrong.

How can the Bible not say what is right or wrong? Religions have a Bible or Torah or Koran and etc etc. Their Book is the "rules for the religion". The Bible says that those things are WRONG.

Why are people so easily swayed? I think it's a psychological reason where people want to fit in. That's why peer pressure is such an issue and people will adjust their mindsets to fit with others so they can feel like they're not alone. I'm not saying this is how it always is, but I think it's part of the reason. They see other people listening to everything the pastor says, so they think "Oh well, if the pastor and everyone else thinks abortion and gay marriages are wrong, I'm going to think so too."

People are easily swayed if they believe it's true. THEIR BELIEFS. People do want to fit in, but in Church it's your beliefs that matter. In fact, being alone has nothing really to do with being swayed at all. If they believe it's true then they'll go for it. Cults are what you're thinking about. [the waco thing..etc etc.] The Pastor is actually TEACHING the Bible. You just have to listen and know what he's saying.

The Bible, which is written by God's People from God, says that what the pastor was talking about is wrong and that it's great that Bush is putting a stop to it. (Gay Marriage, Abortion, etc etc.)

And like ichigofan said, if God loved you so much, he'd let you have your own opinions. Peoples' minds vary and we shouldn't be forced to think abortion is WRONG and gay marriages are WRONG.

God loves us so much that he gives us a choice. To Follow his Religion and all that implies or to do what the world wants us to do. The Bible says that MURDER is wrong.

MURDER = ABORTION // ABORTION = MURDER
Gay Marriage = Homosexuality =

Lev 18:22- Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Straight from the Bible.

[sadolakced acid]

don't cite the bible.

the bible is not a good source. anything taken from the bible is to be assumed as incorrect and added there by humans.

[bebopspike14]

don't cite the bible.

the bible is not a good source. anything taken from the bible is to be assumed as incorrect and added there by humans.

Technically true, that the bible was written by humans, but incorrect? The bible was written by humans who, throught the holy spirit, were given the words to write directly from god.

The holy spirit guides us in our faith, and also serves as one's conscience. Yet those who have sinned many times and are without faith more easily mute the holy spirit's voice within our heads. God sent the holy spirit to guide us in our faith.

[technicolour]

don't cite the bible.

the bible is not a good source. anything taken from the bible is to be assumed as incorrect and added there by humans.

If You can't cite the bible then what exactly is the point of this "debate" then? It wouldn't be a debate.

[Mulder]

^agreed. this debate isnt about the truths or nontruths of the bible. its about what the bible, specifically the christian bible (u must remember that there are many different parts) saying that gay marriage and abortion are wrong. how exactly could someone prove/disprove that without using quotes from the bible, as thats the only source, besides notes from religious leaders, that we could use?

[likeachild]

yup
I don't think any other book in the world has as much moral teaching as the Bible

[technicolour]

If I can't site the Bible..then really there is no purpose for this topic at all. You make no sense. This should pretty much be closed then.

[sadolakced acid]

If You can't cite the bible then what exactly is the point of this "debate" then? It wouldn't be a debate.

you cited a bible quote saying that gay fornication was a sin. how do you know if that wsa in the original bible? who's to say it wasn't added in by geutenburg or king james?


and the point of this debate, if i'm not mistaken, it why religious figures often use thier status for reasons other than religion.

take the crusades, sponsered by the pope. purpose: gain good farmland in and around asia minor.

likewise, religon can be used to stir people to revolt. attaching a religious reason to a war, like william the bastard did before 1066, allows you what seems like a moral advantage, allowing him to become william the conquerer.

we must take into account, however, that this is organised religion. organized religion is inheriently sinful, because it relies upon sinful humans for direction. if a catholic bishop is capable of being gay, then a congregation's pastor is certainly able to be corrupt, and use his power for the wrong reasons.

when looking at oranized religion, we must realize it is a system like the feudal system (at least the catholic system). most people now believe that such a system is flawed and not reliable, yet they still rely upon it in thier organized religion.

in organised religion, people put thier trust and faith in thier pastor or leader. they trust them to make decisions for them, to tell them what do to. (confessions, etc.) this will work if the leader is incorruptable, like god supposedly is, but when it is a human, then you must assume that there is a possibility that they are corrupt.

a corrupted leader with followers will fall to the temptation to use these followers. Some of the followers will blindly follow him- and therefore it works. if a pastor told his congregation to go kill someone, there would probably be a person or two of the congregation toat takes it seriously (if the message is imbedded with religous purpose). This has been used by islamic religous leaders, so it is no stretch that christian religious leaders could use this as well.

so: why do pastors use thier power for political purposes? because it has been done for millenia. christianity has often been used as the puppet of kings bent on conquering a nation, or popes wishing for more wealth.

[Spirited Away]

even though im jewish/agnostic, it is true that about 90% of Americans being christian.

Just a question to everyone: what does that number, whether it be 50% or 99%, has to do with anything? That something the majority believes in must always be right?

[technicolour]

Dude. You need to slam you're head up against a wall, and while you do so I pray that you get some common sense in you. What if..blah blah What if blah blah..

WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG AND I'M RIGHT?

and the point of this debate, if i'm not mistaken, it why religious figures often use thier status for reasons other than religion.

Serious religious people wouldn't. Billy Grahmn..His SON...

likewise, religon can be used to stir people to revolt. attaching a religious reason to a war, like william the bastard did before 1066, allows you what seems like a moral advantage, allowing him to become william the conquerer.

Religion cause also cause people to revolt. Isn't that part of the reason why we CAME TO AMERICA? Protestant religion?

corrupted leader with followers will fall to the temptation to use these followers. Some of the followers will blindly follow him- and therefore it works. if a pastor told his congregation to go kill someone, there would probably be a person or two of the congregation toat takes it seriously (if the message is imbedded with religous purpose). This has been used by islamic religous leaders, so it is no stretch that christian religious leaders could use this as well.

You're thinking of a cult here. But wait, you're going to say religion in general is one huge cult.

take the crusades, sponsered by the pope. purpose: gain good farmland in and around asia minor.

WRONG. IT WAS TO SAVE THE HOLY LAND. Not farmland. H-O-L-Y-_-L-A-N-D.


We are debating CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANTY MEANS THE BIBLE HAS TO COME INTO THIS. IT IS THE RULES TO THE CHRISTIANS. FRANKLY DUDE, your arguement isn't making sense. Christian's = bible.

--

Yea. Numbers really don't matter to this argument.

[sadolakced acid]

Religion cause also cause people to revolt. Isn't that part of the reason why we CAME TO AMERICA? Protestant religion?

right... so the whole thing with companies establishing colonies to grow tabacoo and sugar and rice (sugar, using christianity to justify slavery, mind you)- all that was simply a protestant movement?

You're thinking of a cult here. But wait, you're going to say religion in general is one huge cult.

a cult? i'm using history. a cult is where the leader has free sexual privleges with everyone. history- as in the crusades, spainish inquisition, islamic fundamentalism. racism.

WRONG. IT WAS TO SAVE THE HOLY LAND. Not farmland. H-O-L-Y-_-L-A-N-D.
We are debating CHRISTIANITY.  CHRISTIANTY MEANS THE BIBLE HAS TO COME INTO THIS. IT IS THE RULES TO THE CHRISTIANS. FRANKLY DUDE, your arguement isn't making sense. Christian's = bible.

you are mistaken. the crusades were masqueraded as an attempt to save the 'holy land', when the kings simply wanted farmland, the the pope obliged them.

and why must the bible be a source? we're not talking about christianity itself, right? we're talking about the system of organised religion and using it to influence the followers to do non-religious things...

and, might i ask, when did i say 'what if?' everything i said was based off of history. and real history, not biblical history.

[technicolour]

and why must the bible be a source? we're not talking about christianity itself, right? we're talking about the system of organised religion and using it to influence the followers to do non-religious things...

We are talking about Christianity [The Bible and what it has to say about stuff.] itself. YOU are talking about the "system of organiZed religion".

Today was my church's July 4th celebration service. The pastor took this opportunity to put George W. Bush on a pedestal, slam gay marriage, condemn abortion, and basically tell us all how to vote

He threw outrageous percentages without citing his sources (ie., he told us that 90% of Americans believe in Christianity!), he went on and on with random facts that he couldn't prove. And the congregation flocks to him, because he's the PASTOR and that means they should do anything he says.

This is what we are supposed to be "debating" about. The Christian beliefs.

[sadolakced acid]

My question - why are people so easily swayed? Why do people believe such nonsense without being given a reason to believe it? And why do pastors take advantage of their time behind a pulpit as an opportunity to spout propaganda to thousands and thousands every year?

[Spirited Away]

yup I don't think any other book in the world has as much moral teaching as the Bible

Because it includes similar moral teachings other religions have in their holy books. But eh, this debate isn't supposed to be about this... but I guess I could make it relevant if I tried.

[technicolour]

sadolakced acid Posted Jul 4 2005, 11:26 PM
  QUOTE(Libertie @ Jul 4 2005, 12:01 AM)

My question - why are people so easily swayed? Why do people believe such nonsense without being given a reason to believe it? And why do pastors take advantage of their time behind a pulpit as an opportunity to spout propaganda to thousands and thousands every year?

Are you saying that I am easily swayed? Pastor's aren't sprouting the "propaganda" you are thinking. They are simply reminding that the Bible DOES SAY THINGS about Homosexuality and Abortion. The reason that these people BELIEVE these things is because they have Faith. They believe that Jesus is real, and that his Teachings are worth their time and life.

now.

Why do you believe stuff that the WORLD wants you to believe. (Religion being organized and whatever. Saying Religion, in general, is crap.) Why are you so easily swayed into the Liberal (i'm guessing that you are.) ways of doing things.

Ok im going to quit posting tonight. I was working on a vexel and I would like to continue to work on it. I'll look at this later.

[Spirited Away]

Are you saying that I am easily swayed?

I don't think that's what he meant.

He's saying that what he has been saying is relevant to the topic at hand because he is answering to the topic starter's questions.

[JlIaTMK]

I find that people [from the beginning of time] have needed something to believe in and lead them. Whether it be for the good or for the bad. There have been religious leaders, national leaders, etc. etc. you name it. Hm, people are dependent and simple. What more can I say.

[Mulder]

i dont really see the point in this anymore, but here i go.
there will always be bad religious leaders. some that use their religion to grab others and obtain power, some who molest kids...i dont know. it has nothing to do with christianity itself. humans are inherently bad. we have a free will. there will always be some that take advantage of believers religious conviction for their own selfish purposes.

so: why do pastors use thier power for political purposes? because it has been done for millenia. christianity has often been used as the puppet of kings bent on conquering a nation, or popes wishing for more wealth.

i just answered your question then. can we please end this?

[Spirited Away]

[size=1]i dont really see the point in this anymore, but here i go.
there will always be bad religious leaders. some that use their religion to grab others and obtain power, some who molest kids...i dont know. it has nothing to do with christianity itself. humans are inherently bad. we have a free will. there will always be some that take advantage of believers religious conviction for their own selfish purposes.

Wait, are you saying that everyone is bad because of free will?

[Paradox of Life]

How can the Bible not say what is right or wrong? Religions have a Bible or Torah or Koran and etc etc. Their Book is the "rules for the religion". The Bible says that those things are WRONG.

Yeah, so what insomniac said, I'm not going to argue about the "truths" of the Bible. I'm aethiest, so I just think the whole thing is false to put it simply. If you're Christian, go ahead and let your opinions be swayed by the Bible's rules.

People are easily swayed if they believe it's true. THEIR BELIEFS. People do want to fit in, but in Church it's your beliefs that matter. In fact, being alone has nothing really to do with being swayed at all. If they believe it's true then they'll go for it. Cults are what you're thinking about. [the waco thing..etc etc.] The Pastor is actually TEACHING the Bible. You just have to listen and know what he's saying.

Exactly, but are you violating rules of being a Christian if you support gay marriages and you're pro-choice about abortion? Does that not make you Christian? Do you have to listen and obey a pastor to still remain Christian?

Sorry if this is getting redundant, but can someone explain to me exactly what this debate is about? It seems like I'm/everyone is getting sidetracked.

[crazymonkey1785]

if it were ok to be gay then why were the first people on this earth a man and a woman?????

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin

and do you REALLY think it's ok to kill an innocent baby and not even give it a chance to live!! it's crazy that someone is going to kill a baby or be gay, it's rediculous!!!!

[Spirited Away]

if it were ok to be gay then why were the first people on this earth a man and a woman?????  and do you REALLY think it's ok to kill an innocent baby and not even give it a chance to live!! it's crazy that someone is going to kill a baby or be gay, it's rediculous!!!!

Read the whole thread and don't rant.

RULES OF DEBATE< read it please.

[bebopspike14]

you cited a bible quote saying that gay fornication was a sin. how do you know if that wsa in the original bible? who's to say it wasn't added in by geutenburg or king james?

Well, bibles translated and updated by real christians wouldn't have this problem because of the holy spirit within them. The holy spirit serves to guide christians in their walk with god, and would also aid in this task. Making the process so much more free of human error.

and the point of this debate, if i'm not mistaken, it why religious figures often use thier status for reasons other than religion.

take the crusades, sponsered by the pope. purpose: gain good farmland in and around asia minor.

You must understand, the pope was always a heretical political unfounded figure.

Catholic doctrine alleges that Matthew 16:18 teaches that the church was built on Peter, hence, the pope.

“I say unto you, that you are Peter [petros - rock], and upon this rock [petra] I will build my church.”

1)Petros (Peter) is a masculine gender noun; petra (rock) is a feminine form. The change in grammatical form is not incidental.

2)Petros suggests a small rock, whereas petra indicates a boulder. The contrast is significant.

3)Jesus employed the second person, su (you), in addressing Peter, but He changed to the third person, taute (this) when referring to the rock.

Therefore, based on a bit of greek grammar, the entire lineage of popes was just a big idiotic mistake that the catholics refuse to admit as their blunder.

Which is part of the reason why Popes so freely misuse their powers. They have no foundation in christian truth, and their doctrine is a mere conglomerate of lies designed to politically innoculate those who follow it.

likewise, religon can be used to stir people to revolt. attaching a religious reason to a war, like william the bastard did before 1066, allows you what seems like a moral advantage, allowing him to become william the conquerer.

That's true, but William of Normandy wasn't a true christian. Besides, if popes were doing it....

If popes used their religous powers for political gain, then political leaders could abuse the same weakness rampant among the weak minded.

we must take into account, however, that this is organised religion. organized religion is inheriently sinful, because it relies upon sinful humans for direction. if a catholic bishop is capable of being gay, then a congregation's pastor is certainly able to be corrupt, and use his power for the wrong reasons.

The Catholic bishop and the Pastor thing is because they are weak christians. They have all the doctrine, all the things and etiquette and whatnot instilled on their minds, but they just don't live out their lives for Christ. There's no faith, just the religious structure.

in organised religion, people put thier trust and faith in thier pastor or leader. they trust them to make decisions for them, to tell them what do to. (confessions, etc.) this will work if the leader is incorruptable, like god supposedly is, but when it is a human, then you must assume that there is a possibility that they are corrupt.

But true christians would never place a pastor a a priest or whatever as their leader. If their leader was god, then how can you go wrong? He is incorruptable and will not lead us astray.

a corrupted leader with followers will fall to the temptation to use these followers. Some of the followers will blindly follow him- and therefore it works. if a pastor told his congregation to go kill someone, there would probably be a person or two of the congregation toat takes it seriously (if the message is imbedded with religous purpose). This has been used by islamic religous leaders, so it is no stretch that christian religious leaders could use this as well.

But followers who trust god as their leader would be aware of what they are doing. And god would use the holy spirit to tell us if our orders from a corrupted figure are wrong or not.

so: why do pastors use thier power for political purposes? because it has been done for millenia. christianity has often been used as the puppet of kings bent on conquering a nation, or popes wishing for more wealth.

Because they are without faith, and unwilling to abandon their simplistic will and accept a part in the great will of god. Yes, Political figures have abused the blind faith, but that was because the doctrine did not prepare the believing against such a thing. The doctrine of catholicism placed all faith in the pope, who "Held the keys of heaven" and "controlled one's salvation".

If they didn't follow, then they were so sure that they wouldn't go to heaven, that they would mute out the holy spirit's quiet voice in their minds, abandon reason, and rally to the leaders.

[*Libertie*]

To everyone who has started the argument over gay marriage: This is not a debate over whether gay marriage is wrong or not. There are plenty of threads discussing that topic, and this isn't one of them. Nor is it a debate over abortion. Yes, the bible condemns both of these actions, but for a pastor to say that it doesn't belong in our country? Not ALL of our country is Christian. Not ALL of our country believes that these actions are wrong. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. People should stop trying to force morals on people that they don't have.

To the person/people citing the bible - that isn't a relevant argument here. I KNOW what the bible says. Read above paragraph. I'm talking about people who AREN'T Christians.

Are you saying that I am easily swayed? Pastor's aren't sprouting the "propaganda" you are thinking. They are simply reminding that the Bible DOES SAY THINGS about Homosexuality and Abortion. The reason that these people BELIEVE these things is because they have Faith. They believe that Jesus is real, and that his Teachings are worth their time and life.

No. I never said there was anything wrong with having an opinion. I said that having an opinion because someone TELLS you to have that opinion is a very ignorant way to live. You have obviously thought this through very well, so I would assume that you aren't one of the people to whom I am referring. And my pastor isn't "reminding" us. He's literally telling us that if we vote for any party other than the Republican party, we're going to hell. I'm not exaggerating; this is nearly an exact quote. And when he says this, he is met with thunderous applause. I don't think this is just a coincidence, that all these people are just Republicans to start out with. Many of these people can't even come up with a reason as to why they believe what they do. It's either "the bible says so" or "the pastor says so". I'm simply saying that their opinions would be much better supported if they would get rid of their security blankets and make educated decisions by themselves. If they stop to actually think about it without outside interruption and decide that they still have the same opinion, then so be it. At least it's their own opinion now, and not someone else's.

Why do you believe stuff that the WORLD wants you to believe. (Religion being organized and whatever. Saying Religion, in general, is crap.) Why are you so easily swayed into the Liberal (i'm guessing that you are.) ways of doing things.

You must have missed the post where I said that I've been to churches that don't shove opinions down your throat. Religion is not crap; I am a Christian myself, or I wouldn't be wasting my time in a church. I was not 'swayed' into the Liberal ways. I'm only being open-minded. Yes, it's true that a Christian would not INVOLVE himself in gay marriage or in abortion. I know I'm not getting married to a woman or having an abortion anytime soon. But I will definitely vote for acceptance on these two issues because I know that not everyone is a Christian; therefore not everyone has the same rules as Christians do. Call me a terrible Christian if you want, but I'm not giving up my beliefs in order to please someone.

[*kryogenix*]

you are mistaken.  the crusades were masqueraded as an attempt to save the 'holy land', when the kings simply wanted farmland, the the pope obliged them.

Untrue. Why do you insist on making false statements without backing them up first?

and why must the bible be a source?  we're not talking about christianity itself, right? we're talking about the system of organised religion and using it to influence the followers to do non-religious things...

for example?

and, might i ask, when did i say 'what if?' everything i said was based off of history. and real history, not biblical history.

what's the difference?



let's do this in the bible thread, not here.

[technicolour]

let's do this in the bible thread, not here.

The Bible thread he started?

Yes, the bible condemns both of these actions, but for a pastor to say that it doesn't belong in our country? Not ALL of our country is Christian. Not ALL of our country believes that these actions are wrong. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. People should stop trying to force morals on people that they don't have.

So the country isn't all Christian. But a Christian president got elected. I think
you are over re-acting about the whole forcing-morlas-down-our-throats-with-hope-that-some-people-will-listen. A pastor's job is to teach the word of God, aka BIBLE, and to remind us of the difference between the WORLD and GOD.

I've been to a few churches where the pastor is very reserved and doesn't force-feed propaganda to his congregation. I wish all churches were like that. But I don't want to switch churches because of this; I very much enjoy playing in the church orchestra and don't want to give that up.. plus it gives me a gateway to meet young flutists who take lessons from me (I know, that may sound greedy.. -.-'). I just wish he would learn to contain himself and stop trying to make people change if there's nothing wrong with them. I'm honestly thinking about writing him a letter expressing my concerns.

Ok. SO that isn't the Pastor's style. SO WHAT? Apparently the Church you went to and the Pastor likes to do those things. My pastor reminds us of what the people who are running stand for and he reminds us also what the Bible says as well. If you dont like him doing that then just leave.

No. I never said there was anything wrong with having an opinion.

No. You didn't. The other dude did though. Saying i'm easily swayed. Ha.

[*mipadi*]

So the country isn't all Christian. But a Christian president got elected.

Surely you are not implying that the whole country must become Christian, and follow Christian ideals, because a Christian was elected into office?

[technicolour]

No. I'm saying that He is going to be doing Christian things. And if you dont like it tough, wait till '08.

[Mulder]

seriously... does that mean if a hindu president got elected, we'd all have to be hindu?

we're getting way off topic. theres already a topic on abortion, one on homosexuality, and one on the bible. so...what exactly is the point of this debate?

[technicolour]

Not everybody has to do the Christian ways of things.

Hindu? Where did that come from

[Mulder]

So the country isn't all Christian. But a Christian president got elected

hindu...because....eh. it was on my mind? but i just meant that according to whoever said that quote that if the next president were hindu then we'd all have to be hindu. my mind works in strange ways....

[sadolakced acid]

No. I'm saying that He is going to be doing Christian things. And if you dont like it tough, wait till '08.

no, not tough.

if we don't like it, it's why we have a legislature and a supreme court. it why we have impeachments.

f**k this. i'm going to get elected president under the pretense of being christian, and then order every church burned. and just tell you, tough. wait 4 years.

and please, DEBATE ABOUT THE THREAD.

the thread is about why people (pastors) use thier religious influence to influence people for political reasons. this is not a thread about religion persay, but a thread about religious people doing nonreligious things.


sprinkle-the-stars, i wasn't saying you were easiley swayed. i quoted that from the first post, because you were insisting that the bible was relavent to this thread. however, the prompt question in this topic asked not whether the pastor was preaching christian things, or if christianity were correct, but (as the quote said) why religious people will use thier power to sway people for nonreligious purposes.

[sadolakced acid]

double post. so shoot me.

Well, bibles translated and updated by real christians wouldn't have this problem because of the holy spirit within them. The holy spirit serves to guide christians in their walk with god, and would also aid in this task. Making the process so much more free of human error.

what if the bibles were translated by false christians? like, king james, who wanted to use it to conquer a country?

Untrue. Why do you insist on making false statements without backing them up first?

the original crusade, maybe. but latter- it was for farmland.

[technicolour]

ok
double post, eh, our posts are getting long. they can't argue.

1. My name is Kristina

2. The bible does have a part in this

the thread is about why people (pastors) use thier religious influence to influence people for political reasons. this is not a thread about religion persay, but a thread about religious people doing nonreligious things.

And I have been debating about the darn thread. Pastors aren't using their religious standings to make sure people HAVE to vote one way. They are comparing what the BIBLE says to what the ELECTION PEOPLE say. [the people who are running.] Pastors = church = Christianity [in this case] = Bible.

And what exactly non religious things are they doing? They aren't doing anything wrong.

the original crusade, maybe. but latter- it was for farmland.

I'd love to know about this too.

[Mulder]

if we don't like it, it's why we have a legislature and a supreme court. it why we have impeachments.

not trying to get off topic, but our legislature has an overwhelming republican majority. which means that unless a bunch of republicans suddenly go against bush ( which may happen), bush can get almost any law he wants passed.


now...about the topic at hand. i really dont see the problem in citing quotes from the bible. they might support the pastor's actions (not that i think they were right...because I dont). bush does support christian ideals, such as pro-life, anti gay marriage, republicanism... so that would explain why a christian pastor would be spouting christian ideals..

[*disco infiltrator*]

1) i think it's funny how you love billie joe when he's so openly against christianity and george bush. that just..struck me as odd.

2) people shouldn't vote based on their religion. her pastor should not have said anything about voting for certain people based on their religious beliefs. people shouldn't believe certain things because their pastor tells them. this is why i like justin (crackedrearview)..he's against/for things because of HIS mind. not anyone else's. he's against abortion because HE thinks it's wrong, not because jesus says so. in fact, i doubt there's anything in the bible about abortion...considering abortion wasn't even an issue until the 1970s when it was legalized.

- sammi (touch my monkey)

[bebopspike14]

what if the bibles were translated by false christians? like, king james, who wanted to use it to conquer a country?

The holy spirit, I again say, serves to check this in those translating the bibles, and those reading this. Thus, christians with a real relationship with god would have no problem in defering between what is a false bible.

people shouldn't vote based on their religion.

Yes. Every day people shouldn't. But Chrisitians should, so that god may have his way with our country.

people shouldn't believe certain things because their pastor tells them.

True. Thats why Real christians don't.

[*disco infiltrator*]

i don't want god to have his way with my country. o_o

[strice]

just wanted to clear up that percentage thing. this is from the CIA world factbook.
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)
76% is high, but it's not 90.
crazymonkey really is crazy.

[lbjshaq2345]

weaker ppl are the ones that r easily swayed because they need something to depend on to lean on to give them some support because they are too weak to believe they can survive w/o help 90% of america obviously doesnt believe in God or christianity because we as a nation are growing stronger and growing away from God i'm not saying we need to be weaker but i do think we should come closer to God cuz America is goin to hell as it is and i'm not the best example but at least i can admit that the way i live is wrong

[*Libertie*]

Pastors aren't using their religious standings to make sure people HAVE to vote one way. They are comparing what the BIBLE says to what the ELECTION PEOPLE say. [the people who are running.] Pastors = church = Christianity [in this case] = Bible.

And what exactly non religious things are they doing? They aren't doing anything wrong.
I'd love to know about this too.

That's what I'm saying, though! My pastor IS telling us that we HAVE to vote one way in order to get into heaven. If you think he's not doing anything wrong, then you must agree with him in that if I don't vote for someone who is against abortion and gay marriage, then I'm going to hell. It apparently doesn't matter that I've lived my entire life being the best Christian I can be. Apparently living a Christian life without wanting to meddle in other lives just isn't good enough.

I think telling me that I won't get into heaven because I stand up for something that I believe is right is a sin in itself, and I believe that he will be held accountable for every person he turned away by using this method of teaching.

Oh, and something I forgot to mention.. I didn't fly off the handle; I simply emailed asked my pastor to cite his source for his 90% claim. He responded with this link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6650997/site/newsweek/

Apparently he took this article way out of context. It shows how many people believe in Christianity, but does not say anywhere what percentage actually practices the religion. Here are some more accurate and more recent links:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0102-06.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9610/reeves.html

I looked these over and included more than one link to make sure I don't appear biased. On average, he's off by about 10-13%.

Anyway, I don't want us to lose our tempers here; we obviously both know what we're talking about and I'm in no way trying to insult your intelligence.

[bebopspike14]

i don't want god to have his way with my country. o_o

Too bad. God wills it. (snigger snigger)

That's what I'm saying, though! My pastor IS telling us that we HAVE to vote one way in order to get into heaven.

Then this being the, case, just go to a different church or something. That's a bad pastor.

Christians often forget that people have choice. Yes, they should be confronted, and yes, they do need to be save from spiritual damnation, but we can't force people to do things like that because then there is no faith.

[Spirited Away]

Too bad. God wills it. (snigger snigger)

Really? And here I thought He gave us free will.

[technicolour]

That's what I'm saying, though! My pastor IS telling us that we HAVE to vote one way in order to get into heaven.

Did he REALLY say this? Vote for Bush or YOURE GOING TO HELL!! Or did you mis-interpert something?Just wondering..

Apparently he took this article way out of context. It shows how many people believe in Christianity, but does not say anywhere what percentage actually practices the religion. Here are some more accurate and more recent links:

Christianity is based on BELIEF. I BELIEVE that Jesus is my savior. etc etc..

But yes, the 90 percent is a little whacked up.

[Mulder]

Yes. Every day people shouldn't. But Chrisitians should, so that god may have his way with our country.

and why exactly, should god have his way with our country? so even though a christian presidential candidate may be the worst president in history, all christians should vote for him because hes christian? or were u being sarcastic? i just woke up, i cant really tell the difference.

[technicolour]

and why exactly, should god have his way with our country? so even though a christian presidential candidate may be the worst president in history, all christians should vote for him because hes christian? or were u being sarcastic? i just woke up, i cant really tell the difference.

Honey, God isn't going to have his way with the country. He's going to have his way with the world. Revelations, but then again there is a while other thread saying that's propaganda as well.

No one is saying we should just vote for him cause he's christian. he stands for christian beilefs, [the no abortion and gay marriage stuff].

[sadolakced acid]

2006, roy moore plans to run for alabama governor. and i'm going to be too young to vote against him, and by a few months only. that sucks.

roy moore is an example of religon gone bad. he's compromised his state, and cost the state half a million dollars or more for fines and court fees that the state had to pay. he used his political influence for religious reasons- opposite of her pastor.

both her pastor and roy moore crossed the line between church and state. they believe, because they're christian, that they can do this. please tell me, can they? do you believe this country should be christian?

[technicolour]

Ok. I'm willing to hear you out if I could get a full story. Thats just little bits and pieces.

[*Libertie*]

Did he REALLY say this? Vote for Bush or YOURE GOING TO HELL!! Or did you mis-interpert something?Just wondering..

He literally said in last week's sermon that he believed that anyone who didn't vote for Bush in this past election is in true danger of being sent to hell and needs to seriously rethink his or her life.

Christianity is based on BELIEF. I BELIEVE that Jesus is my savior. etc etc..

But yes, the 90 percent is a little whacked up.

Yes, true, but many of those who were surveyed could have believed those things without necessarily practicing the ideals. It goes both ways; belief is the foundation, but a Christian can't live a worldly life. But you know this already, I'm just clarifying my point. I just think he should do his research a little better.

[technicolour]

Ok. Your pastor's a d**k. He is using his "voice" a little too far. That is political bullshit. We've been arguing about all the wrong things. but THAT is taking it over the top.

[*Libertie*]

Then, we both agree that he was out of line. I just hope that there aren't other pastors out there like him.

[technicolour]

That is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY outta line. No one has the RIGHT TO SAY THAT. Off with his head.

My pastor doesn't directly say that. I know one who does though, but he usually puts the auditorium to sleep in like a minute. he's so boring.