"immature teens", not all of them are |
"immature teens", not all of them are |
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#1
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![]() Oh Goddamnit. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 711 Joined: Sep 2004 Member No: 46,884 ![]() |
I am very sick with people who are about 15 and above and think they can diss younger people because their older. Like the Most Heart Breaking moment topic, older people were dissing the 12 year old, you don't know him, he might have been heartbroken! Anyways, people always judge younger people as immature and stupid. Not all of them are (including me).
What are you opionions on this?? |
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#2
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Brie ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 10,172 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 20,548 ![]() |
Older people tend to think they're more mature because of their age, I guess. They're not always right though.
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#3
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![]() insanitys contagious. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Official Member Posts: 4,210 Joined: Feb 2005 Member No: 99,707 ![]() |
But think about it , when your 12 your probaly like " well , all those eleven yr olds think they are so cool "
Same thing when your 15 your like well all those 14 yr olds are so immature. StereoTypes like that are always going to happen. |
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*jooleeah* |
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#4
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Yeah, sometimes it's frustrating when they're like " she's so young and immature." The stereotype's not always right. But then again, if you think about it, can a 12-year old really be in love or deal with a serious relationship?
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*mona lisa* |
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#5
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Well, don't generalize. Not all 12 year olds I know are mature. You might be, but as you grow older, most people mature. It's just life.
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#6
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![]() I have no life ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 1,119 Joined: Nov 2004 Member No: 66,675 ![]() |
I'm 12 and some people in my grade atually do have a realationship....theres this couple..been "going out" for 2 years....hehe
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#7
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![]() Quand j'étais jeune... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 ![]() |
Some young kids are as immature as some older adults. Kids have their reason, adults however... don't.
Not all adults think that all teens are immature. Many adults do think that MOST teens are immature, which is somewhat true. Sorry guys. |
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*tweeak* |
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#8
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i dont think that all young teens/preteens are immature, however i do think a large amount of them are. take, for example, the kid sitting next to me at bn today...
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#9
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![]() dripping destruction ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 7,282 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 21,929 ![]() |
i think my 12 year old self was an idiot.
i would have locked him in a dark closet if i met him. personally i think most 12 year olds are annoying an immature. the ones i meet are. online, i usually think someone's older if they act mature, and younger if they don't. just a generalization. |
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#10
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Posts: 8,274 Joined: Mar 2004 Member No: 8,001 ![]() |
Anyone who is 15 and above that diss youngsters are still immature. i'm fourteen and i never thought of something like this before. i dont think i'm not that immature because i'm kind of .......... one of the loners who doesnt do much ........ HAHAHA.
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*stephinika* |
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#11
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i agree...but some preteens are rather immature/annoying...i know i was.
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#12
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![]() Nobody Knows Your Heart. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 388 Joined: Jul 2004 Member No: 34,906 ![]() |
well, i mean, it's not like younger people don't backtalk to older people (of any age).
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#13
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![]() oh sweet pestilence ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 2,251 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 22,876 ![]() |
QUOTE(Emmaliev @ Apr 5 2005, 3:05 PM) But think about it , when your 12 your probaly like " well , all those eleven yr olds think they are so cool " Same thing when your 15 your like well all those 14 yr olds are so immature. StereoTypes like that are always going to happen. I couldn't of said it better. |
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#14
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 527 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 19,735 ![]() |
i have always been more mature than basically everyone in my grade. my parents say its because im more cultured, etc. Most of the time i dont laugh at stupid jokes, i know how to cope with things that are happening the right way etc. But most of the time i am looking around at the people in my class and saying 'how immature'
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#15
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![]() define our lives for us. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 11,656 Joined: Aug 2004 Member No: 43,293 ![]() |
Yeah, like people have said above, not ALL preteens at a young age are immature. A lot are.. but a lot of teens are immature, too. They tend to think wrong and they tend to think they can do whatever they want lots of times. o.O so.. really.. yeah.. mhm. I guess if you're immature, grow up, if you're not, great.
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#16
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![]() Quand j'étais jeune... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 ![]() |
QUOTE(aznxboredxperson @ Apr 5 2005, 6:33 PM) Anyone who is 15 and above that diss youngsters are still immature. i'm fourteen and i never thought of something like this before. i dont think i'm not that immature because i'm kind of .......... one of the loners who doesnt do much ........ HAHAHA. Since when is pointing out someone's immaturity is being immature? ![]() |
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*tweeak* |
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#17
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QUOTE(purpleyes @ Apr 5 2005, 6:20 PM) ^ bn? what does it mean? what about the kid sitting next to you? ----------------------------------------- Story time barnes and noble. i got called down to dinner and has to cut short my post, sorry there was this on girl at the music thingy next to me who looked to be about 12, but she had on low pants, and a blue mesh shirt over a tiny black one that very much did not cover her stomach. it was completely innappropriate and ridiculous then a couple of seats further down, there were these boys who also looked about 12 who were dressed up so be punk or rockers or whatever the hell, but anyway, they started shouting obnoxiously, 'hey man, look at the best sellers list. that is so LAME. i cant believe it' and then started going on about some perfectly awful and tacky rock groups that someone his age and apparent maturity should not be concerning himself with |
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*jooleeah* |
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#18
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QUOTE barnes and noble. i got called down to dinner and has to cut short my post, sorry there was this on girl at the music thingy next to me who looked to be about 12, but she had on low pants, and a blue mesh shirt over a tiny black one that very much did not cover her stomach. it was completely innappropriate and ridiculous then a couple of seats further down, there were these boys who also looked about 12 who were dressed up so be punk or rockers or whatever the hell, but anyway, they started shouting obnoxiously, 'hey man, look at the best sellers list. that is so LAME. i cant believe it' and then started going on about some perfectly awful and tacky rock groups that someone his age and apparent maturity should not be concerning himself with You're so lucky you don't have to go to Pinckneyville anymore. I see those types of girls all the time. gross. I'm interested in who those people are ![]() |
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*tweeak* |
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#19
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QUOTE(jooleeah @ Apr 5 2005, 6:56 PM) You're so lucky you don't have to go to Pinckneyville anymore. I see those types of girls all the time. gross. I'm interested in who those people are ![]() i dont know, or else id tell you yeah, sometimes i almost pinckneyville (only because i loathe norcross) and then i remember why i hated it while i was there and swiftly change my mind |
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#20
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![]() in love. unfortunately ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 459 Joined: Mar 2005 Member No: 112,979 ![]() |
Yeah I know what you mean. I used to always think that, and I would think that people that were teenagers were really mean and hated me
![]() ![]() ![]() but about jason, I think everyone (me ![]() ![]() ..i might be, but that's a different story ![]() plus i was like the dumbest 12 year old on the planet. Someone should have told me that, it would have helped a lot ![]() ![]() |
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*jooleeah* |
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#21
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QUOTE i dont know, or else id tell you yeah, sometimes i almost pinckneyville (only because i loathe norcross) and then i remember why i hated it while i was there and swiftly change my mind miss pinckneyville? is that what you meant? =/ er. i wouldn't miss pinckneyville much either.... |
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#22
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![]() 3,565, you n00bs ain't got nothin' on me. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Official Member Posts: 3,761 Joined: Feb 2004 Member No: 3,565 ![]() |
QUOTE(misskentucky @ Apr 5 2005, 6:01 PM) I am very sick with people who are about 15 and above and think they can diss younger people because their older. Like the Most Heart Breaking moment topic, older people were dissing the 12 year old, you don't know him, he might have been heartbroken! Anyways, people always judge younger people as immature and stupid. Not all of them are (including me). What are you opionions on this?? THANK YOU. I LOVE YOU. Yeah. I get targetted alot on forums like CB and others, although it didn't happen much here. But If I'm telling someone to stop something, they'll just be like "shut up, you stupid 12 year old." "grow up" i'm sick of it. |
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*tweeak* |
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#23
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*jooleeah* |
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#24
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QUOTE THANK YOU. I LOVE YOU. Yeah. I get targetted alot on forums like CB and others, although it didn't happen much here. But If I'm telling someone to stop something, they'll just be like "shut up, you stupid 12 year old." "grow up" i'm sick of it. you're a lot more mature then most 15-year olds i know... QUOTE oh, yeah, that is what i meant, haha. i miss the fact that i could get [almost] straight As, but then theres the rest of it... Goodness.....Pinckneyville...just sucks. |
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*tweeak* |
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#25
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QUOTE(jooleeah @ Apr 5 2005, 7:12 PM) actually, juliar, i was shocked when i found out when you were 12. i thought you were older than me at fist ![]() and then julia (this is akward talking about julia and julia), pinckneyville would have been better if so many of the teachers didnt suck so badly, like squires (shudder) and zimmerman (hate. her.) |
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*jooleeah* |
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#26
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Thank god Zimmerman isn't doing cheerleading this year. Someone would've broken a bone....
So, back to the topic. |
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#27
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![]() ...and this is me.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 3,518 Joined: Oct 2004 Member No: 57,899 ![]() |
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#28
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Official Member Posts: 6,953 Joined: Oct 2004 Member No: 52,702 ![]() |
the age you are changes almost everything and older ppl know that b/c they have been there...they are just comparing themselves with the young ones
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#29
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![]() Take advantage of me. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 912 Joined: Aug 2004 Member No: 43,792 ![]() |
QUOTE(misskentucky @ Apr 5 2005, 6:01 PM) Like the Most Heart Breaking moment topic, older people were dissing the 12 year old, you don't know him, he might have been heartbroken! Anyways, people always judge younger people as immature and stupid. Not all of them are (including me). People said that mostly because no one really like Jason61992...he`s annoying and immature. |
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#30
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![]() The Bone Collector ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 2,860 Joined: Aug 2004 Member No: 44,162 ![]() |
I personally think that most 12 year olds are immature, but not stupid. But, they do do stupid things.
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#31
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![]() hello : ) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Official Member Posts: 4,227 Joined: Apr 2004 Member No: 13,139 ![]() |
Well most people said those things in the most heartbreaking moment topic because honestly Jason's 12. He hasn't experienced barely anything in his life yet...it's like he's just starting out. Can someone at that age really be in love, really be heartbroken over rejection? Plus, he wasn't even exactly rejected. He just "heard it through the grapevine" really. And then he went and totally blew it out of proportion. He's also showed immaturity in previous posts.
Anyways, most older teens and adults think that younger teens to kids are immature because they are. Sure, they might be mature for their age, but I still don't think that they are really mature. Just more mature than the majority of the people at that age, that's all. Granted, I'm only 17 so what do I know, but it's like adults/parents say, they really do know more than you even if they didn't finish highschool or graduate college. Not knowing in the sense of book smarts but more of life smarts and that's why older people view those younger than them as immature no matter how mature they might actually be compared to others their age. Because they've experienced more, lived longer, seen more, etcetera and they remember how it was to be 12 and young and when compared to how they act now, to how others their age act now, they say those that are 12 are immature, because them themselves were immature. Ehhh..that doesn't make much sense but it does to me. Also, some people might say this because they have younger siblings who are immature; like I have a 13 year old sister and she is very immature and I have an 11 year old sister and she is too. Like Emmalie said, it's just how it is. Oh yeah and we aren't "dissing" them. To me, just by you saying that, it reveals that you are immature. |
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#32
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![]() WWMD?! - i am from the age of BM 2 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 5,308 Joined: Mar 2004 Member No: 8,848 ![]() |
QUOTE(uninspiredfae @ Apr 5 2005, 5:11 PM) Some young kids are as immature as some older adults. Kids have their reason, adults however... don't. Not all adults think that all teens are immature. Many adults do think that MOST teens are immature, which is somewhat true. Sorry guys. ^ yea like she talks to me and she's 6 years older than me. *shrug* i don't care how mature the person is, people under 12..maybe even 13, are NOT ready to be dating people. you're supposed to just be getting out of, or maybe still in your "BOYS HAVE COOTIES!" phase. you should not be all up on some guy when you're freaking 11 years old. that's disgusting. sorry if you're 11 or something, but seriously..it sickens me when i see little kids acting like they're 20. and yea, juuuulia, i thought you were so much older. i don't really hear you talking about making out with guys though, so....i still love you. :P |
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#33
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![]() hello : ) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Official Member Posts: 4,227 Joined: Apr 2004 Member No: 13,139 ![]() |
QUOTE(touch my monkey @ Apr 5 2005, 8:24 PM) ^ yea like she talks to me and she's 6 years older than me. *shrug* i don't care how mature the person is, people under 12..maybe even 13, are NOT ready to be dating people. you're supposed to just be getting out of, or maybe still in your "BOYS HAVE COOTIES!" phase. you should not be all up on some guy when you're freaking 11 years old. that's disgusting. sorry if you're 11 or something, but seriously..it sickens me when i see little kids acting like they're 20. and yea, juuuulia, i thought you were so much older. i don't really hear you talking about making out with guys though, so....i still love you. :P Oh, I agree with you about the 11 year olds having relationships and such. It's really disgusting. I mean, you're 11. Calm down! I think I remember topics in either the girls locker or relationships about young girls asking about sex and boyfriends and dating. It's odd to me. |
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*tweeak* |
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#34
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#35
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![]() define our lives for us. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 11,656 Joined: Aug 2004 Member No: 43,293 ![]() |
QUOTE(tweeak @ Apr 5 2005, 7:53 PM) barnes and noble. i got called down to dinner and has to cut short my post, sorry there was this on girl at the music thingy next to me who looked to be about 12, but she had on low pants, and a blue mesh shirt over a tiny black one that very much did not cover her stomach. it was completely innappropriate and ridiculous then a couple of seats further down, there were these boys who also looked about 12 who were dressed up so be punk or rockers or whatever the hell, but anyway, they started shouting obnoxiously, 'hey man, look at the best sellers list. that is so LAME. i cant believe it' and then started going on about some perfectly awful and tacky rock groups that someone his age and apparent maturity should not be concerning himself with i think i was going to say.. something like.. girls around 12 are trying to wear 'sexy' clothing to attract boys. and they think they're mature that way [well, the girls in my school think so. they brag that they're mature just because they wore something that didn't cover their bra strap] so anyways.. yeah. they think they're mature like that but they're more like idiots trying to be half-naked. |
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#36
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![]() 3,565, you n00bs ain't got nothin' on me. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Official Member Posts: 3,761 Joined: Feb 2004 Member No: 3,565 ![]() |
oh em gee, i'm gonna go make out with someone now. hawtnezz. i am so kewl. i m almohst 13 mahn, lemme make mah own decisionz.
![]() imma go buy sum miniskurtz tew, ya knoe, cus i lik tha boys xD omg my brah straps showing xD i m so mature now! |
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*salcha* |
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#37
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#38
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![]() dripping destruction ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 7,282 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 21,929 ![]() |
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#39
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![]() I'll never be who I was again.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 2,886 Joined: Jan 2005 Member No: 77,981 ![]() |
i think not all teens are immature..theres some that r really mature..
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#40
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 913 Joined: Feb 2005 Member No: 101,212 ![]() |
All I am saying is that people should act their age. (its just my opinion, sorry
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#41
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![]() Quand j'étais jeune... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 ![]() |
QUOTE(touch my monkey @ Apr 5 2005, 9:24 PM) ![]() anyway... QUOTE i don't care how mature the person is, people under 12..maybe even 13, are NOT ready to be dating people. you're supposed to just be getting out of, or maybe still in your "BOYS HAVE COOTIES!" phase. you should not be all up on some guy when you're freaking 11 years old. that's disgusting. If young teens are truly mature, they would know what they should and should not be acting like around guys. However, most of them don't. They just follow certain trends: dating at a young age, kissing, sleeping around. Yup, that's disgusting to me, too. QUOTE sorry if you're 11 or something, but seriously..it sickens me when i see little kids acting like they're 20. It sickens you? It makes me gag! Hell's bells, I'm 20 and those kids scare me, in the sense that I fear how I will have to keep a tight leash on my own kids in the future. |
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#42
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![]() mmm hmmm ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 1,591 Joined: Sep 2004 Member No: 47,325 ![]() |
QUOTE(Emmaliev @ Apr 5 2005, 6:05 PM) But think about it , when your 12 your probaly like " well , all those eleven yr olds think they are so cool " Same thing when your 15 your like well all those 14 yr olds are so immature. StereoTypes like that are always going to happen. ^ True. I'm 21. I find many teens to be obnoxious, immature, rude... etc.. etc. But I was an "immature teen" before.. so it's all gravy. |
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#43
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 58 Joined: May 2004 Member No: 15,477 ![]() |
like "stupid freshman".. i dont get it cuz they used to be freshmans once
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#44
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![]() boo ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 5,512 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 71,765 ![]() |
Well, it's just a way of life and there's nothing we can do about it. (:
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#45
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![]() I watch you while you sleep. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 1,068 Joined: Mar 2004 Member No: 7,685 ![]() |
This has happened to me on more than one occasion, but never on Createblog.
xo, Pauline |
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*Weird addiction* |
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#46
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I personally don't think all 12 yr olds r immature, and i dont compare them to 15 or 16 yr olds. To me anybody younger than me is "younger than me" not "immature". I'll call you immature only when you act immature.
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#47
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![]() E=Fb Musicians Theory of Relativity ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 711 Joined: Mar 2005 Member No: 109,045 ![]() |
QUOTE(gotnoheart @ Apr 5 2005, 6:07 PM) Well, don't generalize. Not all 12 year olds I know are mature. You might be, but as you grow older, most people mature. It's just life. That's very true. QUOTE(xXgWenZilLaXx @ Apr 6 2005, 1:21 AM) And people called them "stupid freshman" when they were freshman. It's a cycle. |
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#48
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![]() former member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 706 Joined: Apr 2005 Member No: 122,339 ![]() |
i hate it when that happens....if they are so 'mature' then why the hell cant they see that only morons will judge based on age. as for myself i try not to judge until I actualy know the person, of course i am one of those people who more mature than most my age, so it really isnt so hard for me.
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#49
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![]() Another ditch in the road... you keep moving ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 6,281 Joined: Jan 2005 Member No: 85,152 ![]() |
QUOTE teachers didnt suck so badly, like squires (shudder) and zimmerman (hate. her.) *weeps with memory of mrs squires.* we had ISSUES. bitch. oh, on topic? whats that? lol yeah... i do think a lot of twelve year olds bring it on themselves... people tend to focus on the minority, who act like evolutionary throwbacks. as a rule i try to get to know someone based on personality... i gues it helps that high school and middle school aren't split here. you see a lot more of 12 yearolds from day to day, and some arent so bad. some REALLY are tho. |
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#50
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![]() you high baby? ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 88 Joined: Apr 2005 Member No: 122,267 ![]() |
age is just a number~
but i think discussing the whole older ppl always feel as though they're more mature blah blah* is immature. |
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#51
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![]() Je vous aime ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 361 Joined: Mar 2005 Member No: 109,078 ![]() |
maturity has nothing what so ever to do with age..
I know a lot of people (for me) think that I am at least 15.. but sadly Im not.. Im only 13. But being 13 sucks because no one respects you but your not a kid anymore, when your 12 your still not officaly a teenager.. or thats how I look at it! ^^ Anyhoodels, yesh it is annoying for me to have older kids tell me that Im young and shouldnt worry about surtain things because I'm 'too young'.. but its hard not to. |
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#52
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 4,357 Joined: Jul 2004 Member No: 28,115 ![]() |
Well, as you're older, you get mature (or you're supposed to)
And besides, I'm only 13 and I know probably 4-5 people that are even mature. Everyone acts like uncivilized PIGS. |
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*suddenly she* |
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#53
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i know there are a lot of kids younger than me that are mature. everybody has that sort of potential.
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#54
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![]() je suis une noix de coco <33 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 1,242 Joined: Nov 2004 Member No: 62,768 ![]() |
some younger kids just do stupid things and try act all cool and i comment on that sometimes. its not always true, I find myself being immature at times, but its just how age is to us at this point
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#55
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![]() ticktock. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 1,138 Joined: Mar 2005 Member No: 118,235 ![]() |
Sometimes they see 1 immature 12 year old, and think that all 12 year olds are immature.
I am 12 myself. Sometimes people judge you on the way you type. I used to do that too, but I realized, this really great guy I know, he types like a frickin idiot. But in real life, he's a great, mature, fun person ![]() |
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#56
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![]() dripping destruction ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 7,282 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 21,929 ![]() |
but we're not meeting you in real life.
if someone types like an idiot online, can't we treat them like an idiot online? |
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#57
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 452 Joined: Feb 2005 Member No: 97,814 ![]() |
i guess thats always gunna happen. like at my school, some of the 8th graders think they can do whatever they please to the 6th and 7th gradeers they shove and bully them, i guess why that they always run across the halls during passing with their humungo camping book bags. and they`re at least 5 feet ><
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#58
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![]() Quand j'étais jeune... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 ![]() |
I just wanted to add that, after a conversation with another teen, most teens do not know what they're talking about, but they'll pretend that they do, just for the sake of wining an argument. However, this makes them look twice as immature, and not to mention incredibly stupid. That's all.
I guess this can be said about some adults as well... but hey we get away with it because teens, like the ones I've mentioned, are too stupid to catch us. |
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#59
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![]() deleted ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Member Posts: 3,168 Joined: Jan 2005 Member No: 92,276 ![]() |
yea they don't pick on me, even though i am 12. ok well a few do but not a lot.
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