"under God", should it be taken out?? Options

[starling]

The case is up before the Supreme Court. So what do you think??

[*Podomaht*]

nope. you dont have to say the pledge. all you have to do is stand up. respect your country.

[waccoon]

in god we trust isn't in the pledge. in god we trust is on our money. Under God, Indivisible .. is in the pledge. and yes, we should make the country more .. atheistic =]

[AlwayzADreamur]

nope. you dont have to say the pledge. all you have to do is stand up. respect your country.

i agree

[xjjajeengx]

our forfathers (or what you call them) based our constitution on God... we should leave it there to respect what they believed and to respect our God that let all things happen. (or my opinion)

[waccoon]

our forfathers (or what you call them) based our constitution on God... we should leave it there to respect what they believed and to respect our God that let all things happen. (or my opinion)

what about respecting the atheists in the country?

forefathers

they didn't base our constituion on god.

[starling]

in god we trust isn't in the pledge.

yikes. you're right. my bad. ahh, it's been a long day.

[juliar]

in god we trust is in money
under god is in the pledge

I pledge alleigance to the flag of the united states of america. and to the republic for which we stand one nation under god indivisible for liberty and justice for all

well, if you dont care about the under god part, dont say it, theres no need for saying the pledge. pledge wastes our gym time...

[xjjajeengx]

my bad, typo.
hmm...true, they didnt base it on God, but they believed in God. our constitution was created by God believers, and we should respect that and leave it in. like podo said, you dont have to say it. hahah

[pyrochick19770]

i think it should be left in, not just cuz im Catholic but juss cuz it show`s unity. I mean it was added so to show the we were AGAiNST the Soviet Union n communism...i think it was durin` the Cold War, but i`m not sure. If you don`t believe in it..use ur "RiGHT TO REMAiN SiLENT"

[darkestdesire]

Why should we remove "in God we trust", i mean there is no rule saying you have to saw the pledge of allegiance. If you HAVE to then do something about it, but xjjajeengx is right, our constitution WAS created by people who believe in god. oOo im getting all into this topic, lol.

[*Podomaht*]

what about respecting the atheists in the country?

forefathers

they didn't base our constituion on god.

hey man, no offense, but can you stop correcting everyones typo? i mean if you understood what she said, dont correct it. it kinda gets annoying though.

sorry.

[starling]

exactly. saying the Pledge is optional - and so is saying the words 'under God'.

[ANTWON]

Wow. I'm the only one who's voted yes...
It was put in there by the Government in 1954 without the consent of the people so I think it should be taken out.

[*kryogenix*]

what about respecting the atheists in the country?

forefathers

they didn't base our constituion on god.

they can omit Under God. and our country was founded on Judaeo-Christian philisophy.

[waccoon]

i think it should be left in, not just cuz im Catholic but juss cuz it show`s unity. I mean it was added so to show the we were AGAiNST the Soviet Union n communism...i think it was durin` the Cold War, but i`m not sure. If you don`t believe in it..use ur "RiGHT TO REMAiN SiLENT"

it was not added to show opposition to the soviet union and communism.

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

those were eisenhower's exact words when he approved the chance to the pledge.

[espressive]

Oh yea, i heard about this on the news the other day...but i didn't stick around long enough to hear what they had to say about this. In my opinion, i say no. I mean, it was there to begin with, i say, leave it that way. From what i've seen, it hasn't really affected a lot of ppl (just from my experience), so why bother with something like that?

[*jimmyjackiechan*]

I don't really care. I been using dollar bills and U.S. coins for ages. If the quarters became copper themselves, why would it matter?

I think maybe it should say "Diversity America Values"

[*krnxswat*]

topic title edited.

[stryker76]

I think it should either be takin out or the pledge become an optional thing...I mean that must be offencive to alot of ppl to have to pledge under another god....so yeah take it out besides its unconmstitutional to force religion on a group of ppl...

[noaccounthere]

I think it should either be takin out or the pledge become an optional thing...I mean that must be offencive to alot of ppl to have to pledge under another god....so yeah take it out besides its unconmstitutional to force religion on a group of ppl...

It is by law optional. By law no teacher, principle, person can make a student or person state the pledge out of his own will.

This country was founded in belief of God. Only recently have many came public in being Athiest or believing in it. The majority of people still believe in God; most people in our country belong to some form of religion. Most americans believe in God or a supreme being.

Now athiests still make a very small population in this nation. Its intresting that a minority chooses to outrule the majority. It is by law that schools cant force people to say the pledge at all. THey dont have to say the pledge or they can say it and ommit the under god part themselves.

What athiests are trying to do is force the deliberate removal of belief of God from our nation. This isn't about seperation of state from religion. It is the development of anti-religion by athiests. At this moment athiests arent forced to say anything or believe anything. What athiest want is to strip the oportunity to believe. Of course this is all my opinion and therefor could not be what the case is but what the case is as I percieve it.

[stryker76]

I would have to agree with you almost totally on that...although i am athiest...i personally dont mind religion an others practicing it...but i do think it needs to stay out of places where many religions are to gether like a school...we last year hired a teacher that is very religious....which i didnt mind...till he started preaching to me in class...and tell me i was goin to hell....i just feel school is not a place where religion needs to be invovled...

[waccoon]

i agree, even though atheists make up ten percent of america's population - some find it offensive. take the guy who went to court for it, he didn't want his daughter to hear it every morning. he's one of those people who complain just to complain about something. i mean, if he didnt want her to hear it just make her leave the room or something, there are people that believe in that gunk.

[Co.Oky me]

"under God" should be kept..because I believe that it is only stating the truth. Others aren't being forced to say the words...so how is it hurting anybody except for that fact that some people don't like God...o.O
ahkkk. my mind's boooooozed up.....tired..>.<

[stryker76]

"under God" should be kept..because I believe that it is only stating the truth.

That is the big thing behind the athiest...y dont kno if it is the truth....the bible was written by someone in which we still dont kno who....and according you the bible it was a dream that someone had interpreted in to what we have today as the bible.....and the fact that there is no physical proof to the exsistence of God is the reasoning to why many people feel the was they do.....Also lets say in the next 5 years someone discovers intelligent life on another planet.....lets say that they look nothing like us...that was tear apart Christianity.....because it states in there that Life (interpretted as human)...was created in god image...mean he was shaped like us.....so none human intelligent life mean....a lyin bible....to some extent......

[starling]

topic title edited.

thanks bunches!

[starling]

i agree, even though atheists make up ten percent of america's population - some find it offensive. take the guy who went to court for it, he didn't want his daughter to hear it every morning. he's one of those people who complain just to complain about something. i mean, if he didnt want her to hear it just make her leave the room or something, there are people that believe in that gunk.

here's the thing tho: his daughter has no problem with the words "under God". she says them willingly. the guy and his wife are divorced, and the wife is a born-again Christian, and the daughter follows Christian values. he's just using her as an excuse to fight it against having those words in the pledge.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

It's always been there. Why is our country suddenly questioning everything that it was built on? Geeze. If you don't like that we are "one nation under God," then leave that line out. It's simple, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to say it or no one can.

[iloveyou07]

No!!! It needs to stay there!!! Its all about respecting our country, our forefathers and most importantly GOD!!!

[*AngelicEyz00*]

No... leave it in, it's been like that forever... why start complaining about it now??
And also, people aren't forced to recite it... i never do, I just stand up..

[stryker76]

At my school we have to stand and say the pledge or we are sent to the office i been down 13 times for refusing to say the pledge....i love me country i really do...but not sayin the pledge everyday of my school career doesnt mean i dont love it ne less....i dont say it because there is one thing that i dont agree with...the fact that religion is begin forced on me in school

[m@dcow]

i believe that the athiests have rights too.. and it's not always "majorty counts"...

it's become such a ruitine that i don't even remeber that i do it everyday

[adoggydog195]

no

[xXCloudStrifeXx]

all i have to say is that

the goverment is stupid

1. always got something to hide

2. always think they can handle everything on their own

3. think the public is a bunch of rats

4. think that public voteing is an "educational" way of saying "yes we are giving you power" when i bet in the end the goverment forced all those electives

and 5. the goverment sux period. Their gay laws

and this has to be the dumbest of them all "oh no you cant say "undergod" in school anymore what shal we do?"

[2ruPnoy]

i say no and its not like the poll counts and i hate the stupid government. thank to them i cant go back home becuase i have to have a green card i order to come bck to the Philippines. Screw theGovenment an their stupid laws an shut up! if ur atiest y do u post here its not likeu can do aything about it.

[*CEP*]

if ur atiest y do u post here its not likeu can do aything about it.

And you can?
They want to be heard and you should let them. The"no" choice on the poll is there for a reason you know.
And before you start rambling about how they're going to hell, God loves everyone. Even those who don't believe in him. If he didn't love them, then that kind of contradicts everything that's been said about him.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi
Oh BTW, I'm Catholic and by no means an atheist.

[peanutbutterbbb]

[*CEP*]

^ Damn, That's pretty deep. Where'd you find that? Or did you take the pic?

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[noaccounthere]

That is the big thing behind the athiest...y dont kno if it is the truth....the bible was written by someone in which we still dont kno who....and according you the bible it was a dream that someone had interpreted in to what we have today as the bible.....and the fact that there is no physical proof to the exsistence of God is the reasoning to why many people feel the was they do.....Also lets say in the next 5 years someone discovers intelligent life on another planet.....lets say that they look nothing like us...that was tear apart Christianity.....because it states in there that Life (interpretted as human)...was created in god image...mean he was shaped like us.....so none human intelligent life mean....a lyin bible....to some extent......

THe bible was written by many diffrent authors. It goes by the JEDP theory. J for yahwists who believed god in form of personification or as bieng humanly. Elohists - I forgot their motives, gotta look up rel notes on this, Deutronomony - forgot also, and priestly - which was made by priests to get people to practice the faith more. THats the reason why when you read the bible you see soo many diffrent versions of one event. For example, the creation stories. Theres a yahwist and priestly version.

But what im getting here is that the Bible was written by many diffrent people, incorporating cultural diffrences and needs of that time. The real message of the scriptures are not visibly seen they are up to your interpretation. Thats why people say the bible is alive, because each time you read it you may come to a diffrent conclusion of the message.

As for proving religion. Thats impossible. Religion itself especially christianity is based on faith and interpretation. THe religion will always change even if new scientific finds disagree with it.

For example, Scientifically the earth could not be formed in seven days. What do we say now? It was written in the interpretation of what God days or how long God days might be.

As for the created in God's image, It is not to be taken literally. It means we were built in the image to do good like God. But to others it may be taken literally. Thats the hard part about religion. You really dont know the real belief of one's real religion unless you study it. Heck ive been FORCED to study it by going to a catholic school all my life and still am and I still dont know alot of concepts. And frankly im not up to read the whole CCC (catholic catechism of the catholic church).

As for the 'under god' my views stay the same as it did on the earlier post. The guy is merly using his daughter to promote athiesism without the oppertunity to state what others believe.

[defjam_gangsta]

Greetings!!

tat's a pretty good explanation but hey, we all will end up other GOD at the end of it all!!

CHEERS CB!!

[chanleythemanley]

I just say leave it in because it's always been that way. They can't make you say the pledge in the morning. In fact, I don't really say the pledge anymore.

[Corianboi]

the pledge is already optional, and no one puts a gun to your head and forces you to say it...the beauty of this country is you can say what you want and believe what you want, so why make a case. It's retarded.

[Knight]

Hmmmmm... This is a tough one... Keeping "Under God" in the pledge would be blending in with public religion, but taking it out would be against your religion... Argh, I have no idea!

[jk9286]

No it should not. Is it harming anybody? No. It's not doing anything bad to anybody in the country, so why should it be changed? Just because it says God, woooo~ everybody's all scared and uptight about it.

Geez. If you dont like it, then dont say the Pledge of Alliegance at all.

[LiNHy POO]

nope. you dont have to say the pledge. all you have to do is stand up. respect your country.

yehh i agree!! at least have respect!

[JlIaTMK]

yup.... take it out.... NOW.... lol i just dont like that

ONE NATION UNDER GOD

.... ah so were the only one ey?

please move this to debate

[*xcaitlinx*]

i've always thought it should be taken out. our country is supposed to be a diverse one where all religions are accepted and cherished; so why must we say "under God" when a lot of people don't believe in God or believe in a religion other than Christianity? I'm atheist, and when we say the pledge in the morning i say everything BUT "under god" because i choose not too. some people look at me weird but i could care less...not my problem.

[Spirited Away]

"NEW! Polls are not allowed in debate forum. It's because debate aren't voting on sides. Debates are giving evidence to prove your own points. If everybody vote, there there'll be no point to debate"

under debate guidelines. i know this topic was made a while ago, but since the guidelines restrict polls, is it possible that a mod take the poll away?

[simx]

It really depends on how you look at it... I don't think it's necessary to take it out... this idea of seperation of church and state isn't specifically writen into our Constitution and this country *was* founded on
"Christian" values.. our founding fathers were very religious men.

Reciting the pledge of allegiance isn't required... it's optional... if you don't feel comfortable with it you can just opt not to recite it.. it's not a big deal.

[evanbunnell]

Seperation of church and state.

This country is full of people that do not follow Christianity, Catholicism, etc. so why should the country itself go under a Christian flagship? Please don't argue that the country was built on the faith. Things have changed immensely. This country was also built on muskets and horses. Are you to say that we should abolish cars as well? Times have changed and we must adapt as such. I'm not anti-religious in any sense. I don't mind if people have their own religions, but do not involve them in politics concerning those that don't believe, those that have differing beliefs, and those that do believe.

[Spirited Away]

It really depends on how you look at it... I don't think it's necessary to take it out... this idea of seperation of church and state isn't specifically writen into our Constitution and this country *was* founded on
"Christian" values.. our founding fathers were very religious men. 

Reciting the pledge of allegiance isn't required... it's optional... if you don't feel comfortable with it you can just opt not to recite it.. it's not a big deal.

NO. This country was founded on the principle of religious freedom, not Christian values. The Constitution has no mention of God or Christianity. And though "seperation of Church and State" is not stated word for word, it is clearly implied by the restrictions of government 'to make laws respecting an establishment of religion". Our most important Founding Fathers were Deists. Learn your history, man. Also, the problem isn't reciting the pledge, the problem is "under God".

[Mulder]

i dont think "under god" should be in the pledge. the original pledge didnt even mention it.

this probably is converging on the american constiution thread, but america has always overstepped its boundaries on the issue of separation of church and state.
if we're attacking the issue of saying "under god", what about it being represented on our money: "in god we trust"

i dont say "under god" personally; in fact i rarely say the pledge.

[ParanoidAndroid]

People shouldn't take that seriously. I mean sure, it makes you compliment a god you don't believe in, but it;s notl ike they're forcing you to believe

[coconutter]

I think it shouldn't but, if I were in the 1800's or whenever it was created I woudl've said it should'nt because not everyone is christian. Since it's already done it shouldn't be tampered with but it should've never been put in there in the first place.

[think!IMAGINARIL...]

i don't think forcing people to say it is appropriate, but i think people have their own right to choose if they want to say it or not.

[WHOngos144]

nope. you dont have to say the pledge. all you have to do is stand up. respect your country.

yeah man.

[timeflies51]

the original pledge didn't mention it. actually, the "under god" line was the last to be added.

personally, i want it to be taken out. it's not respecting everyone in the country as a whole. actually, it's going against the first amendment: freedom of religion. atheism counts. i suppose you could translate "god" into several different meanings, but i'd say that they are relating to the god mentioned in the bible. so what about islam, wicca, just religions like that?

and if you want to talk about our forefathers, they helped create the constitution too. what do you really think is more important? the fact that they mentioned god here and there, or the formation of the constitution?

(oh, and i don't say "under god" in the pledge.)

[baakla]

if you dont like it, dont say it. simple as that.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Yea, I don't say the pledge when asked to in school..

I don't think it should have been there in the first place, but it doesn't necessarily need to be taken out because it's not that big of a deal. It wasn't put in for the Christian right; it was put in to show that our country was different from the Communists, that our law was under God's, not that our country is ruled by God or something. So it doesn't really matter that it's there now, but those who put it in should have thought of what would happen after the war was over and should have considered the religious freedom that our country is supposed to have.

[baakla]

were you being sarcastic? or you really dont say it.

our school doesnt even say the pledge. i thinks its against the law in our district or something.

[*disco infiltrator*]

No, I really don't say it. We're told to, but I just stand up and nothing more.

[vehvih]

Uh huh, I don't say the pledge of allegiance too becaue I don't plegde under God since I don't believe his existance, and I don't memorize it.

Taking the 'under God' away.. I don't know. I believe it does not only stand for Christianity and Catholicism, but the history of America where the Manifestation Destination took place. Without the belief in God, America won't be America literally. That's why I am ok with the dollar bills.

[simx]

were you being sarcastic? or you really dont say it.

our school doesnt even say the pledge. i thinks its against the law in our district or something.

yea our school district or something doesn't allow students to recite the pledge anymore...

[emazing]

Since I am a Catholic, I strongly believe no would be the answer, and that would also be the Congress' choice when they decide to vote [2/3 have to agree to make it a law]. On the flip side, I understand that people who are non-Christian wouldn't want to offend their religion, so I guess it's 50/50.
The majority of Americans are either Catholic or Christian, or believe in some form of God. Hopefully, the 'under God' phrase will stay there.

[*disco infiltrator*]

^ But why? What satisfaction do you take in making the rest of us recite something we don't agree with?

[Joss-eh-lime]

if there really was no god whats the harm in a few words on a dollar bill or a part of a sectence to recite each morning. theres no god actually listening right? [<sarcasm]

[evanbunnell]

I feel pressured into believing when I read that on the dollar bill and hear it within the pledge. I don't push my beliefs on you, I'd just like to not have others' beliefs pushed on me.

[Retrogressive]

I believe that this is our history, erasing history is something dictatorships do. This land was after all founded on Christian beliefs as well as freedom.

[*disco infiltrator*]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
OH MY GOODNESS GRACIOUS.
People have said in this thread and others: OUR COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN BELIEFS.

The founding fathers were deist, yes, but their religious views were not the basis for our laws. Nowhere in our Constitution does it have any religious laws besides the FREEDOM of religion. The FREEDOM to practice ANY religion and believe ANYTHING you want.

if there really was no god whats the harm in a few words on a dollar bill or a part of a sectence to recite each morning. theres no god actually listening right? [<sarcasm]

Because it makes those who are not Christian or even believe in a God at all feel inferior, like they don't belong.

Why are points being brought up that have already been discussed?

[Tribal J_Rome]

Because it makes those who are not Christian or even believe in a God at all feel inferior, like they don't belong.

Why are points being brought up that have already been discussed?

word, how can there be freedom from religion if the words "under god" exist? it's everywhere, like in courts with that "do you swear to tell the truth.........so help you god" crap

[Joss-eh-lime]

^ But why? What satisfaction do you take in making the rest of us recite something we don't agree with?

well what satisfaction is there from not letting people say what they believe in? and like andromeda_90 said it isnt forcing you to believe anything

[*disco infiltrator*]

And like I've said, more than once, it makes those of us who do not believe in God feel inferior and like we don't belong in this country.

[waccoon]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
OH MY GOODNESS GRACIOUS.
People have said in this thread and others: OUR COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN BELIEFS.

The founding fathers were deist, yes, but their religious views were not the basis for our laws. Nowhere in our Constitution does it have any religious laws besides the FREEDOM of religion. The FREEDOM to practice ANY religion and believe ANYTHING you want.
Because it makes those who are not Christian or even believe in a God at all feel inferior, like they don't belong.

Why are points being brought up that have already been discussed?

I have never, ever, EVER heard anyone say they feel inferior because of the Pledge of Alleigance. We = You?

The constitution was written with the intent of letting everyone have their own freedoms, like religion. You have the freedom to believe anything you want, but the Pledge of Allegiance is just that, a pledge of allegiance. When you recite the Pledge, you're not supporting the idea of God, you're supporting the idea of the United States.

[*disco infiltrator*]

But it includes the idea of God, saying our nation is under God, as if we follow him, as a country.

[waccoon]

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyt...ledgeandgod.htm
I think everyone needs to read that before they post any more in this topic.

Politicization of the Pledge continued in earnest when, in 1942, Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance — this established their authority over it and over its use.

Through World War II, the Pledge became a symbol of national unity — so much so that, when Jehovah’s Witnesses refused to recite it, they encountered a great deal of opposition and prejudice.
They lost their first Supreme Court Case but won their second — and in the aftermath many Witnesses suffered. Among the worst incidents were the burning of a Kingdom Hall in Maine, police assisting a mob in Maryland in dispersing a Bible meeting, and nearly an entire town in Illinois attacking a group of Witnesses, which required calling in state police to protect them.

During the 1950s matters worsened as people became more and more afraid of the communists. Many people were persecuted, denied work, and even jailed for no other reason but that they allegedly had Communist leanings. In an effort to link national unity with opposition to “godless communism,” the Knights of Columbus (“Strong Right Arm of the Church”) campaigned to have the words “under God” added to the Pledge. This was around the same time, and for the same reason, that ”In God We Trust” was added to all money and made the national motto.

[*disco infiltrator*]

I know that's why it was originally put in, but I don't think we need to really find something to show that we are not supportive of Communism right now, and the reason it's there has been changed and it's taken on a new meaning.

[verlorenrivets]

McCarthy is awesome! We should all practice McCarthyism EVERY DAY IN CLASSROOMS ACROSS AMERICA, OUR ONE NATION UNDER GOD!

[*mipadi*]

I know that's why it was originally put in, but I don't think we need to really find something to show that we are not supportive of Communism right now, and the reason it's there has been changed and it's taken on a new meaning.

Yes, now we need something else to show how we're going to sock it to those terrorists.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Right, of course, because why would we want to encourage peaceful relations with those crazy non-Christian Islamic people?

[Joss-eh-lime]

And like I've said, more than once, it makes those of us who do not believe in God feel inferior and like we don't belong in this country.

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

[teeblue]

That phrase has history to it. The phrase "under God" isn't all about religion its about the hope of the early settlers. They all have to have a strong convinction for something so that they can fight and die for the future of United State. "under God" represents the sacrifices of many soldiers who believe in our future.

[*mipadi*]

That phrase has history to it. The phrase "under God" isn't all about religion its about the hope of the early settlers. They all have to have a strong convinction for something so that they can fight and die for the future of United State. "under God" represents the sacrifices of many soldiers who believe in our future.

No it doesn't. It represents a need to keep the damn Commies out of our great nation.

[NoSex]

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

Which god? Your god?

I'm confused.

Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[Spirited Away]

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

Why don't you read the thread. (< not a question, obviously). I'm really sick and tired of seeing this comment floating around, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[kayemo]

Which god? Your god?

I'm confused.

Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You forget that Christian is not the only religion that believes in God (and if you're going to say, "which god?" even though I'm sure you very well know which one, the ones that Christians believe in). At the time Puritanism was also popular. The country was founded so that the people here could worship God however they chose, yet not other gods (an example would be Buddha). Most of the settlers that first came to America were being forced to become Roman Catholics when they did not believe in catholicism. If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. It's a matter of respect.

[blackxpearl]

I don't know if I acctually have the right to an opinion since I'm not american or anything but I think it should be taking out. It's kinda assuming that everyone in america is catholic. Which I know for a fact they arn't.

Also, I'm not saying anyone is but just make sure if you're catholic, your beliefs are being reflected on your opinion. Keep an open mind, not everyone is catholic, I respect about the forefathers or whatever were catholic or whatever, (i have no idea who they are or what they did but anyways) and i respect that they uhmmm, well idk what they did but i respect whatever it was, but times have moved on and to be honest I think having to say the whole god thing, is kinda like saying, "I'm catholic and my beliefs are fact" which I disagree, obviously, because nobody can say their beliefs are fact, they are beliefs and exactly that. In my opinion, and it might have something to do with where I live but catholics (and protestants) are getting a bad name for themselves and it's getting plastered onto the religeon rather than the acctual person, if I were those people I would calm it down a bit.

Dude I've went away off topic x.x

[*disco infiltrator*]

And uh...just because the founding fathers believed in a god doesn't mean they wanted anyone and everyone else to also, or expected them to.

Besides, when the pledge was first instituted, it didn't have "under God" in it. That was put in during the Cold War. So stop bringing up the founding fathers; they didn't put it there, and neither did the people who wrote it, nor the people around at the time it was implemented.

If another person says "our founding fathers believed this and it's what our country was founded on", they will be warned, because it's been said before and it has no relevance to the pledge, seeing as they did not write it or have anything to do with it.

[Teesa]

Hmm, they say the pledge every morning at our school. When I was younger, I used to follow my peers and just stand up with them. But now that I'm older and I know I don't believe in god, I don't say that part of it, and usually I just don't stand up at all.

I do think that the words "under god" should be removed because there is nothing wrong in saying:
I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?

[NoSex]

You forget that Christian is not the only religion that believes in God (and if you're going to say, "which god?" even though I'm sure you very well know which one, the ones that Christians believe in).

I think you missed the point. It was a rhetorical question to underline the problem with identifing the Christian God in our national pledge when our heritage, our founding fathers, and our past and current population are all comprised of drasticly different religious and theological sentiments. Not all of them ever believed in the same god.

At the time Puritanism was also popular.

Puritanism was never popular. The people you are refering to as "puritan" never actually identified themselves as such. It was a derogatory term used by antagonists which opposed the Protestant Reformation. These people are often refered to Pilgrims as well. These pilgrims arrived here in the Americas around 1920, at least 11 years after Jamestown was first settled. There reasons for migration and settlement were blaringly different than the majority of original settelers who were involved in business.

The country was founded so that the people here could worship God however they chose, yet not other gods (an example would be Buddha).

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson created a list of 27 grievances that he, and his fellow settelers, believed had been done onto the New World by King George III.

Jefferson writes, "Such has been the patient Sufferance so these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the Present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let the Facts be submitted to a candid World."

He then continued to list all charges against the King and the British parliment. He is making the case for independence. Charges include military harrasement, unfair taxes, unjust trials, and lack of equal representation. But, of all the 27 charges, not a single one includes religious oppression.

Your charge that is country was founded so that men could worship freely a christian God, but not an eastern God such as Buddha is highly fallacious. Your confusion sits with the Puritan movement. Yes, the Puritans were zealous Protestants. Yes, they wanted everyone to believe in a single Protestant (Christian) God. However, they did not want to build a new country around this idea. This was not their intent in moving to the New World.

Most of the settlers that first came to America were being forced to become Roman Catholics when they did not believe in catholicism.

Wrong again. None of them were being foreced to believe in catholicism. You truly have a distorted conception of the Protestant Reformation and puritan migration. As well as early colonial settlement in the Americas.

I'll try to make this simple.

1. Jamestown was the earliest and most significant of english-speaking colonial settlement. It was a colonization based on business. The land and colony was owned by the Virginia Company of London and of Plymouth. John Smith, famous English settler and famous foundation behind Jamestown, was granted charter by King James I (Hence, Jamestown). Under the Virgina Company, the area was to be colonized for profit. Most of the first settlers first came to America for business and profit.

2. In western Europe, a movement had been stirring ever since Martin Luther challenged the catholic church. This movement was refered to as the Protestant Reformation. The idea behind it is that radical Protestants would "purify" the church by eliminating Catholic and "Popery" influence. This proved rather difficult as most powers held strong Catholic ideals. The Protestant Reformation and those involved were looked down upon by the majority of the population and their movement was in bad shape. They were in disfavor, however they were not being forced to convert, tortured, or persecuted simply because they were protestants.

3. The Protestants who still saw hope in Reformation traveled out of England. Not because they felt that they need more religious freedom, but because they felt that there was far too much religious freedom in England. They believed that the state should abolish all Catholic influence and impose Protestant and more "pure" ideals.

4. Yes. They traveled from England, but not to the Americas. Not at first. They originaly settled in southern Holland, in the Netherlands. The belief was that if they did it right they could serve as an example to the rest of the world, and more specificly England. However, the highly radical protestants felt threatened by Dutch influence. So, fearing their children's spiritual and cultural health, they fled to the States in hopes of a fresher start. The idea what that they would ring in Reformation in England from the states. They thought that Britian would follow their example. The plan was then to abandon the new found colonies, and to migrate back to England and celebrate victory. Victory never came, winter did. Alot of them died.

5. They weren't being forced to be Catholic. They wanted to force everyone to be Protestant.

If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. It's a matter of respect.

I'm not even so sure what that means.
What exactly am I respecting again? Why can't you respect your neighbors? Why do you have to hold onto a perverted version of our county's history, national motto, and pledge? We want to represent and respect all people, of all color, and all background. We want to unite America and it's people. We don't want to devide. We would never want to send the message to anyone that if you don't in this specific God that you might not be part of America. Nor did our founding fathers.

In 1956, at the heart of Red Scare, we changed our motto to "In God We Trust." In just two more years, paper money sported the new motto, and our pledge had been changed to include the phrase, "In God." All to prove that killing communism was right. Because communists were atheists, and we loved Jesus. God was on our side!

In 1789, we, as a country, adopted our first motto. It read, "E pluribus unum." In latin, this meant, "Out of Many, One."

[fisher0fman]

This country was founded on God..let's keep it that way.

[*mipadi*]

This country was founded on God..let's keep it that way.

This has been discussed. The US was not founded on God. Its creators certainly had some Christian influences when writing some laws and policies, but it's a huge stretch to say it's founded on God. The United States has more of a basis in Enlightenment political philosophy than in Christianity and "God".

[Spirited Away]

I seriously think people should be warned or given a verbal warning, at least, for not following the most basic rules of this forum.

[*disco infiltrator*]

This country was founded on God..let's keep it that way.

If another person says "our founding fathers believed this and it's what our country was founded on", they will be warned, because it's been said before and it has no relevance to the pledge, seeing as they did not write it or have anything to do with it.

Thanks! Here's your verbal warning!

[anoniez]

I personally don't think it should be taken out; although I am athiest, I don't find it offensive at all and rarely say it. hahah so I'm really arguing both sides in this post. What a paradox.

However, a point I want to add to all the people who said that you're not obligated to say it:
Whereas you may not feel obligated to say it now, old as you are, little kids are extremely influence by peer pressure and may say it just because everyone else is.. I know I used to. Don't assume that just because you feel comfortable not saying it, everyone else is the same. The point is that there should be no inkling of pressure at all to say the pledge if you don't want to- something that is hard to avoid with small children unless you take out the words "under God."

I also find fault with saying that "it's always been that way, why change it now?"
One might as well say, back in the first half of the 1800s, that "slavery has always been the way things are, why change it now?"

on the other side:
A lot of people view "under God" as a purely historical reference. You're not pledging allegiance to any "God," you're pledging allegiance to "the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands," whose founders did believe in God and did found our nation on Judeo-Christian principles. The words "under God" can be viewed simply as a testament to the enormous role that Christianity has played in our nation's history, through which the majority of Americans have been Christian.
this was just an interesting argument i read somewhere.
also look to the mentioning of a God in various historical documents.. "in the year of our Lord," "God-given inalienable rights" etc.. these bear testimony to the part Christian principles have played in the founding of our government. the nation wasn't founded directly ON God, but Christianity sure had a large influence.

[NoSex]

on the other side:
A lot of people view "under God" as a purely historical reference. You're not pledging allegiance to any "God," you're pledging allegiance to "the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands," whose founders did believe in God and did found our nation on Judeo-Christian principles. The words "under God" can be viewed simply as a testament to the enormous role that Christianity has played in our nation's history, through which the majority of Americans have been Christian.
this was just an interesting argument i read somewhere.
also look to the mentioning of a God in various historical documents.. "in the year of our Lord," "God-given inalienable rights" etc..  these bear testimony to the part Christian principles have played in the founding of our government. the nation wasn't founded directly ON God, but Christianity sure had a large influence.

Could you seriously read my post on this same page. It's rather long, but would you please. Thank you.

[Mulder]

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

i think he means colonized.

the country has existed long before it declared its independence.

the first "pilgrims" were separatists who were trying to escape from England, whose official religion at that time was the Church of England.

as England turned to Catholicism, Mary was killing many separatists. so more fled to America for religious freedom and tolerance.

America wasnt techically a country while under England's rule, but honestly, during the decades leading up to the Revolution, America was its own nation, regardless of the fact that they were an English territory.



wee. im done.

sorry... this is helping me with my history final.

[NoSex]

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

i think he means colonized.

the country has existed long before it declared its independence.

the first "pilgrims" were separatists who were trying to escape from England, whose official religion at that time was the Church of England.

as England turned to Catholicism, Mary was killing many separatists. so more fled to America for religious freedom and tolerance.

America wasnt techically a country while under England's rule, but honestly, during the decades leading up to the Revolution, America was its own nation, regardless of the fact that they were an English territory.
wee. im done.

sorry... this is helping me with my history final.

Read the entire thing. I address this issue, as well as early colonization. Read the whole thing.

[anoniez]

Could you seriously read my post on this same page. It's rather long, but would you please. Thank you.

I read it, and I still feel I had a right to post what I did. I think you're construing my post as saying that our nation was founded on God, or Christianity. I'm not saying the U.S. was founded on God, or to allow people to worship God, or even on Christianity. I think it's a bit unfair to lump my response under what someone else said without even seriously considering it. And I know I'm playing the devil's advocate in a way here since I'm atheist myself, but here goes.
I'll explain further. What I'm saying is that for a large part of American history, the majority by far of Americans were Christian. Since our government is democratic, that would necessitate our government being based off of, in part, Christian principles - think of representative democracy. The Christian ideals of his constituency would be represented by a congressman in the government. Religion, specifically Christianity, played a major role in our government for a very long time.. there even used to be laws mandating the closure of businesses on Sundays. Even now a large majority of the members of our legislative branch are white male Christians.
So basically what I'm doing is trying to provide a link between Christianity and our government.. I'm not saying that our country was founded for Christianity, but rather that Christianity has nevertheless played a large role in our nation's history. I'm really sorry if I didn't express it clearly enough.

[NoSex]

I read it, and I still feel I had a right to post what I did. I think you're construing my post as saying that our nation was founded on God, or Christianity. I'm not saying the U.S. was founded on God, or to allow people to worship God, or even on Christianity. I think it's a bit unfair to lump my response under what someone else said without even seriously considering it. And I know I'm playing the devil's advocate in a way here since I'm atheist myself, but here goes.
I'll explain further. What I'm saying is that for a large part of American history, the majority by far of Americans were Christian. Since our government is democratic, that would necessitate our government being based off of, in part, Christian principles - think of representative democracy. The Christian ideals of his constituency would be represented by a congressman in the government. Religion, specifically Christianity, played a major role in our government for a very long time.. there even used to be laws mandating the closure of businesses on Sundays. Even now a large majority of the members of our legislative branch are white male Christians.
So basically what I'm doing is trying to provide a link between Christianity and our government.. I'm not saying that our country was founded for Christianity, but rather that Christianity has nevertheless played a large role in our nation's history. I'm really sorry if I didn't express it clearly enough.

Christianity has played a rather large role in all of our nation's history. Granted. However, I fail to see how this fact justifies declaring, in a national pledge, that we are under that christian God. To me, that only seems to polarize our nation, as well as to pervert our founding. These words do not seem to be in place for some form of historical significance. Not as far as I can see.

I see where you are coming from. But, our country, largely, is based in the concept of a freedom of and from religion. Many of our most influential founding fathers, including many of our first presidents, did not believe in a Christian God. Some even despised the Christian religion. Our democracy is not a pure democratic state. We live under a democratic republic. This, largely, is in place to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. We are supposed to be living in a land where everyones voice can be heard equally. Everyone is represented fairly. Everyone can be united in the image of our nation and draw from that a creat power in that unity. I think this is trivialized, and the founding of our nation is mocked by supported the words, "Under God" in our national pledge. If anything is disrespectful, it is that.

[anoniez]

Christianity has played a rather large role in all of our nation's history. Granted. However, I fail to see how this fact justifies declaring, in a national pledge, that we are under that christian God. To me, that only seems to polarize our nation, as well as to pervert our founding. These words do not seem to be in place for some form of historical significance. Not as far as I can see.

I see where you are coming from. But, our country, largely, is based in the concept of a freedom of and from religion. Many of our most influential founding fathers, including many of our first presidents, did not believe in a Christian God. Some even despised the Christian religion. Our democracy is not a pure democratic state. We live under a democratic republic. This, largely, is in place to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. We are supposed to be living in a land where everyones voice can be heard equally. Everyone is represented fairly. Everyone can be united in the image of our nation and draw from that a creat power in that unity. I think this is trivialized, and the founding of our nation is mocked by supported the words, "Under God" in our national pledge. If anything is disrespectful, it is that.

Hahah. I happen to completely agree with you. I feel that justifying it as a historical reference evades the subject of religious sensitivity. I've really been posting not for the sake of my personal opinion so much as to introduce new ideas into the debate.. I'm too used to riding the fence. >< If you want more information on the historical reference argument, look up former Chief Justice Rehnquist's opinion on the Elk Grove v. Newdow case. It makes a tolerable amount of sense, although I don't agree with it.

But something for those who want the phrase kept in to consider: (from religioustolerance.org)
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Jewish student. You have the choice of
1. Reciting a pledge that an atheist wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, without God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
2. Refusing to recite it, and leaving yourself open to being belittled, harassed, insulted, assaulted, etc.
Would you repeat all the words? Would you skip over the phrase "without God?" Would it make you feel comfortable about being an American?
Likewise, what if you had to say "under Allah"? "under the God and Goddess"? Would you feel like your religious freedom was being violated?
I know I would. Reading this made me see the other side a lot more clearly.