should a christian be a republican? Options

[Retrogressive]

I guess since republicans do not believe in homosexual marriages and abortion most christians I know are republicans. But what about the seperation between church and state? I guess morals have a lot to do with who you will vote for, but shouldn't it be the right person for the job? A lot of christian republicans that I know don't believe in abortion and that is a big issue of why they voted for bush, but I haven't seen bush do anything about abortion. I don't know is it wrong to be a democrat christian? Isn't kerry a christian?

[sikdragon]

Kerry shouldnt be a christian... everythings he says, does, and votes for is completely working against himself. He likes to take the good things that work to his advantage from christianity and completely diregard the rest. Bush does the right thing rather than the popular thing. He has moral back bone and defends the defenseless. He has signed bills against partial birth abortion. Republicans are mostly conservative meaning that they stick to what they know works. They dont expiriment on us like lab rats. Our founding fathers were prudes and wanted to up hold what was in the Bible instead of blindly worshipping the state.

[strice]

i can hardly call fighting for independence prude. democracy was a complete experiment. two of the most important revolutionaries, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, were not christian. Jefferson was atheist and Franklin was deist. I think it's better that Kerry is willing to defy the bible. a president bound to a lousy book is doomed to failure. choppiest. paragraph. ever.

[*tweeak*]

yes, kerry is catholic, but hes basically been anathemated from the church for being a pro-abortion public figure. christian republicans are not violating the separation of church and state, but bringing morality to the goernment. supposedly. at least in the way of abortion.

[sammi rules you]

yes they're both christian. some people make me angry when they say they're voting for bush because he's a strong christian..your vote for president shouldn't depend on religion.

[expoised]

i know a whole lot of democratic christians. i'm a christian republican, but it's not because bush is a Christian, its because i agree with what he stands for. which are mainly based on the Christian belief.

but hey, if you're brought up as a Christian, what you think is right and wrong would be different from what non-christians think is right and wrong. so of course religion plays a part in who you vote for. it's not directly affecting the government, but it's affecting morals, and that's whats important.

there's no way you can TOTALLY seperate church and state, without affecting the person you are.

i dunno if that made sense. whatever.

[*Kathleen*]

I'm atheist and I would consider myself a Republican. They're all just stereotypes, although Republicans tend to follow more religious morals. As a conservative atheist, I see nothing wrong with that. Where else would we get our morals? And as someone mentioned before - there can be no definite separation between church and state. It's impossible. There are certain morals within our very society that are based upon Christian values and beliefs. Granted, you may not instantly think that, but because our country was raised on them, it's been pounded into our brains and yes, I lost my train of thought...once I find it, I'll finish this.

[ComradeRed]

It depends on what kind of Christian.

Orthodox Christians and Catholics traditionally favor democrats slightly.
Mainline protestants traditionally favor republicans slightly.
Evangelican protestants favor republicans BY A LOT.

Jews lean democratic.
Muslims lean republican.

Interestingly enough, Islam is the MOST Republican religion in America. Nearly 80% of Muslims voted for Bush in 2000. If you do not include African-Americans, then about 88% of Muslims voted for Bush in 2000.

Currently, Bush is polling at 5-10% among Muslims, and is actually in third place, behind both Kerry and Badnarik.

[Spirited Away]

i can hardly call fighting for independence prude. democracy was a complete experiment. two of the most important revolutionaries, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, were not christian. Jefferson was atheist and Franklin was deist.

My dear, I don't mean to be picky (and breaking that whole "ignore" each other thing), but where did you hear that Jefferson was Atheist? He was a free-thinker and more Agnostic than Atheist.

But I do concede to your point.

[*CrackedRearView*]

Kerry's a Catholic at home and non-religious at work.

[strice]

my history teacher said that. i may have heard wrong since i often fall asleep, but the point is that he wasn't christian, as you noted.

i'd like to add to comradereds post. this year kerry has been endorsed by the muslim association for bush's "neglect for muslim rights". the muslim association or whatever its exact name is endorsed bush the previous election. my source being NPR, again.

and cracked, isn't that a good thing?

[Spirited Away]

Hmm, I believe Jefferson refered to God too much in his writings to make him Atheist. But I will further my readings to make sure of this.

[sikdragon]

i can hardly call fighting for independence prude. democracy was a complete experiment. two of the most important revolutionaries, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, were not christian. Jefferson was atheist and Franklin was deist. I think it's better that Kerry is willing to defy the bible. a president bound to a lousy book is doomed to failure. choppiest. paragraph. ever.

Democracy may have been an expiriment, but it's foundations had already been tested for a thousand years. A lousy book??? The greatest presidents who did the most for our country were not bound to the book, but chose to follow it's lead. Bush is not bound to the Bible, but follows it's clearly outlined example of how to lead a good life and making the world a better place.

[Spirited Away]

Democracy may have been an expiriment, but it's foundations had already been tested for a thousand years. A lousy book??? The greatest presidents who did the most for our country were not bound to the book, but chose to follow it's lead. Bush is not bound to the Bible, but follows it's clearly outlined example of how to lead a good life and making the world a better place.

Choose to follow its lead? Meaning?

If you mean to follow what the Bible teaches about morality, then this is quite misleading. Deism existed BEFORE the coming of Christ and morality (and immorality) existed BEFORE the coming of all religions. To believe in God doesn't make one Christian and to believe in God AND follow one's sense of morals definately doesn't make one Christian. Like many of our Founding Fathers, their references to God doesn't make them Christian. And the Bible doesn't lead what already existed in human nature.

[DittotoAnne18]

not necessarily, but most christians are.

Im 110% democrat

[mzteriouzme007]

yes they're both christian. some people make me angry when they say they're voting for bush because he's a strong christian..your vote for president shouldn't depend on religion.

i thought that religion is like.. u're EVERYDAY life, and i guess voting is part of life, right? GO BUSH!

[mzteriouzme007]

i'm 200% republicc

[sammi rules you]

kerry is christian; that's why i get so pissed off when one of my friends, john, tells me he'd vote for bush mostly because he's a strong christian.

yes, there should be separation between church and state. laws for the country should not be made according to the leaders religion. if bush made a reason against gay marriages that wasn't religious, i might consider him.

till then, it's all kerry. *fistpump* personally, he's against these things, but he wouldn't make laws about them according to his religion.

[sikdragon]

Choose to follow its lead? Meaning?

If you mean to follow what the Bible teaches about morality, then this is quite misleading. Deism existed BEFORE the coming of Christ and morality (and immorality) existed BEFORE the coming of all religions. To believe in God doesn't make one Christian and to believe in God AND follow one's sense of morals definately doesn't make one Christian. Like many of our Founding Fathers, their references to God doesn't make them Christian. And the Bible doesn't lead what already existed in human nature.

The Bible existed before Christ was born. I wasnt talking about our founding fathers. I was talking about christian presidents. Human nature is rebellion. The fruit from the tree of knowledge gave us that nature. The bible leads us to what good can make up our nature.

[sikdragon]

kerry is christian; that's why i get so pissed off when one of my friends, john, tells me he'd vote for bush mostly because he's a strong christian.

yes, there should be separation between church and state. laws for the country should not be made according to the leaders religion. if bush made a reason against gay marriages that wasn't religious, i might consider him.

till then, it's all kerry. *fistpump* personally, he's against these things, but he wouldn't make laws about them according to his religion.

Religion is what made this country great. It's homosexuals and the like that are destroying it. Perversness should not be made legal just because you have beef with your creator. Got questions about what i just said PM, IM, or Email about it. This thread is dead to me.

[Spirited Away]

Human nature is rebellion.

Sure, along side with obedience, curiosity, the will to survive... etc. So, what's your point?

Rebellion can be said to be part of our survial instinct. We would not want to meekly obey someone who's hurting us, do we? That's suicidal.

The fruit from the tree of knowledge gave us that nature. The bible leads us to what good can make up our nature.

But obedience, curiosity, the will to survive and many other "natures" existed long before the Bible. Therefore, once again, the Bible doesn't lead what's already existed before it. It only serve to repeat what some people have forgotten/choose to forget.

It's human nature to use our logic to figure out when rebellion is good and when it is bad because it's not always just bad.

Or do you mean to tell me that our rebellious nature is all bad?

[ComradeRed]

The Bible existed before Christ was born. I wasnt talking about our founding fathers. I was talking about christian presidents. Human nature is rebellion. The fruit from the tree of knowledge gave us that nature. The bible leads us to what good can make up our nature.

Read some of the stuff the Founding Fathers actually wrote.

Jefferson and Ben Franklin were Deists ... they believed that God created the world, but DID NOT play an active part in it. They invoked God the same way a Roman poet might invoke the Muses ... not "God protect us and deliver us from evil", but "We are inspired by what God stands for".

James Madison specifically said that the Constitution DID NOT permit government to fund religious schools, and that the foundations of the country were primarily secular (although certainly, religion ought to impact public life).

[strice]

sikdragon, you make some very odd statements. first it's that democracy wasn't an experiment and that the founding fathers were hardcore christians, now it's that religion makes this country great. i believe that it is the lack of a centralised religion that makes this country what it is. back in europe, nothing was going as well as it could have been all because of bickering over religion and genocide and what not. jefferson and the rest realised this and ensured the separation of church and state. it is religious people who are holding back our society, trying to pull us into their old world ideals. homosexuals are really a driving force in pop culture, and it's really quite stupid to say they're ruining anything.

[sikdragon]

Sure, along side with obedience, curiosity, the will to survive... etc. So, what's your point?

Rebellion can be said to be part of our survial instinct. We would not want to meekly obey someone who's hurting us, do we? That's suicidal.

But obedience, curiosity, the will to survive and many other "natures" existed long before the Bible. Therefore, once again, the Bible doesn't lead what's already existed before it. It only serve to repeat what some people have forgotten/choose to forget.

It's human nature to use our logic to figure out when rebellion is good and when it is bad because it's not always just bad.

Or do you mean to tell me that our rebellious nature is all bad? 

oh im not merely stating rebellion in general. Im assuming that everyone sees God in existence inevitably. I'm writing of rebellion against God and the road less travelled. Ignorance of your creator gives a distorted view of where pain and suffering come from. Ignorance is a far dangerous weapon than any atom splitting.

Those natures have been in our ways of thinking long before the written bible, but God's word has always existed.

Read some of the stuff the Founding Fathers actually wrote.

Jefferson and Ben Franklin were Deists ... they believed that God created the world, but DID NOT play an active part in it. They invoked God the same way a Roman poet might invoke the Muses ... not "God protect us and deliver us from evil", but "We are inspired by what God stands for".

James Madison specifically said that the Constitution DID NOT permit government to fund religious schools, and that the foundations of the country were primarily secular (although certainly, religion ought to impact public life).

Do you even read what you quote?? ill give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you misread it. I said "I wasn't talking about our founding fathers."

sikdragon, you make some very odd statements. first it's that democracy wasn't an experiment and that the founding fathers were hardcore christians, now it's that religion makes this country great. i believe that it is the lack of a centralised religion that makes this country what it is. back in europe, nothing was going as well as it could have been all because of bickering over religion and genocide and what not. jefferson and the rest realised this and ensured the separation of church and state. it is religious people who are holding back our society, trying to pull us into their old world ideals. homosexuals are really a driving force in pop culture, and it's really quite stupid to say they're ruining anything.

Oh ho ho isnt the kettle calling the pot black. There is nothing new to be discovered. Everything is in cycle. No utopia on this earth is possible. Think back to a time when people could leave their doors unlocked. People helped each other out and everyone knew everyone. In today's "SELF" improvement society morality, lawfulness, and even decency have all been taken back to their primal stages. Honor doesnt even exist. To be called civilized is almost impossible. The fault of humanity is that we need to be lead. Communism fails because absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is only true in men. The Bible describes a perfect community. Love, trust, and happiness replace greed, hate, and fear. Tell me how can loving your enemies be bad???
Without morality and law there cannot be order or peace. When laws begin to degrade to anarchy the one with the most power just creates more law of a more corrupt and biased nature. faggs, lesbians, thieves, liars, biggots, hatemongers, adulterers, terrorists, murderers, and the ignorant destroy everything our founding fathers believed in.

WE ARE GIVEN THREE GOD GIVEN RIGHTS: LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

Flip on the tv look outside, that is what happens when people have lost what their parents tried to tell them about happiness. Everyone is searching for it. Everyone is trying to fill that hole. What happiness is lost... or is it? Wait, when you're lost follow the trail of bread crumbs back through the history of your travels back to your roots. Follow the path back and retrace your steps until you've found what your looking for. If you blindly barge ahead without looking back, how will you know if you're going in circles?

Seperation of Church and state is a good thing and a bad thing. Like taking the rules off the classroom walls and expecting the kids to follow them. When religion is forced it becomes habitual and loses it's meaning. When you discover for yourself, you understand why they wanted you to follow them.

God loves you. God had to create us with freewill because he wants to love and be loved. Remember back in the day when you were fighting with your siblings and your mom or dad made your brother or sister apologize to you? It would've meant so much more if they apologized before hand and really cared if you forgave them. If you build a robot and program it to love you, it isn't the same as meeting someone who is just crazy about you or having kids who even though you have to discipline them grow up and thank-you for it. Having kids who don't stick you in a nursing home. A robot can't choose to love you. It is in it's programming. It thinks and feels what you tell it to.

With freewill when you choose not to love him, you are telling him not to invite you to stay with him.


Now back to the actual topic.
Back a long long time ago. There were small towns where everyone knew everyone. You couldn't be, let's say "different" and be open about it. You were accepted that way. Murderers and the like were stoned or lynched, depending on time period. So these different people moved to the cities which were all about change. Capitalism, making money, was just defining itself and republicans like lincoln supported it. These "different" people were becoming rich or atleast living better than their small town counter parts. Democrats supported the small towns and got support from the small towns. Then sometime along the line it switched. The conservatives became republican keeping the constitutions of the wiser generations. Democrats supported the perverseness which runs along side capitalism and freedom of the big cities. Not to say capitalism or freedom are perverse. This is where we find ourselves today. Liberal, socialists, and communists under the democratic flag are advocating change searching for the perfect society blinded by greed. Conservative republicans are running around trying to keep the good things of old. The good qualities like civilization and morality and keep them as well as the capitalism and freedom. The easiest road to morality is the road less taken, the narrow path of the Bible. The Bible is a compilation of a journey of a people who have been enlightened via divine intervention. People who have walked among the world's greatest man(God incarnate). People who have discovered life's most hidden obscure secrets. The most complex resolution...Simplicity.

Now a group of people who are trying to keep the good of our country and are Christian works smoothly. Why? They have a common enemy.

[Spirited Away]

oh im not merely stating rebellion in general. Im assuming that everyone sees God in existence inevitably. I'm writing  of rebellion against God and the road less travelled. Ignorance of your creator gives a distorted view of where pain and suffering come from. Ignorance is a far dangerous weapon than any atom splitting.

Those natures have been in our ways of thinking long before the written bible, but God's word has always existed.

Right...

The ancients were ignorant of God but their descendants survive to this day. Knowing God doesn't exists or being doubtful of His existence doesn't make a person ignorant because each person has his/her own truths. God gave us free will, so why wouldn't we be able to have our own truths? If having our own truths make us ignorant, than doesn't that means God's gift of free will make us ignorant?

I see pain and suffering the same way any normal/sane/healthy person would. I also see it as a trial of survival of the fittest, of nature. The only distortion I see is when someone tries to tell someone else that though they suffer now, they'll be rewarded in death if they believe in God. This will make that person lazy in the way that they won't want to try harder. Of course, this laziness is a sin, but what else do you expect? After all, it's in our nature to sin as you like to put it. Nevertheless, the person now holds a distorted view of religion, of life, of death.

The existence of God's words can be said to be a distorted state of mind. After all, what do you call someone who thinks there are voices speaking to them in their head? (I do apologize if I'm offending you.)

Oh ho ho isnt the kettle calling the pot black. There is nothing new to be discovered. Everything is in cycle. No utopia on this earth is possible. Think back to a time when people  could leave their doors unlocked. People helped each other out and everyone knew everyone.

When did that ever happened? People probably didn't lock their doors because they didn't invented the lock yet.

If you have a heart capable of basic emotions, i.e. loneliness/sympathy, you'd help your neighbor out, too, when you can. Everyone knew everyone because everyone has time to talk to each other and have collective tribal meetings. Nowdays, single moms/dads, married couples don't even see each other until the sun's down. We rarely have time for greetings.

In today's "SELF" improvement society morality, lawfulness, and even decency have all been taken back to their primal stages. Honor doesnt even exist. To be called civilized is almost impossible. The fault of humanity is that we need to be lead.

Those without honor, decency, morals... etc cannot be grouped with those that do. Having religion doesn't make a person honorable NOR humble, it makes him/her thirsts for a truth that is beyond reach in life. The MANY faults of humanity are simply flaws that make us the species that we are. Without them, we wouldn't be humans, we'd be gods.

Communism fails because absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is only true in men. The Bible describes a perfect community. Love, trust, and happiness replace greed, hate, and fear. Tell me how can loving your enemies be bad???

If we're without greed, hate, and fear, we wouldn't be human. In fact, you're fond of saying there's only black and white. How about perfection and imperfection? We're imperfect, this makes us human. God is perfect, that makes Him almighty. If we were perfect, we'd rival God. Thus, love, honor, happiness go hand in hand with greed, hate, and fear to balance us out. You said that we would not know light if there was no darkness (hate, greed, etc), we wouldn't know God/perfection (light), if we were perfect ourselves.

Without morality and law there cannot be order or peace. When laws begin to degrade to anarchy the one with the most power just creates more law of a more corrupt and biased nature. faggs, lesbians, thieves, liars, biggots, hatemongers, adulterers, terrorists, murderers, and the ignorant destroy everything our founding fathers believed in.

Our Founding Fathers believed in free will. Though restricted, to protect the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness FOR ALL, they still believed in free will. This means that with or without God watching over us, we still have free will. We follow laws and morality to ensure our own security and peace of mind.

Flip on the tv look outside, that is what happens when people have lost what their parents tried to tell them about happiness. Everyone is searching for it. Everyone is trying to fill that hole. What happiness is lost... or is it? Wait, when you're lost follow the trail of bread crumbs back through the history of your travels back to your roots. Follow the path back and retrace your steps until you've found what your looking for. If you blindly barge ahead without looking back, how will you know if you're going in circles?

Is that how YOU look for happiness and you're assuming that others do the same?

Well, that's not how happiness comes to be, in my opinion. People search for happiness all their life but it may never come to them. True that if you want happiness, you seek for happiness. However, sometimes you need to let life take charge instead of charging at it like a madman/woman. This of course, is up to your discretion.

Do you believe in predestination?

Seperation of Church and state is a good thing and a bad thing. Like taking the rules off the classroom walls and expecting the kids to follow them. When religion is forced it becomes habitual and loses it's meaning. When you discover for yourself, you understand why they wanted you to follow them.

Replace "morality" in for the word "religion".

God loves you. God had to create us with freewill because he wants to love and be loved. Remember back in the day when you were fighting with your siblings and your mom or dad made your brother or sister apologize to you? It would've meant so much more if they apologized before hand and really cared if you forgave them. If you build a robot and program it to love you, it isn't the same as meeting someone who is just crazy about you or having kids who even though you have to discipline them grow up and thank-you for it. Having kids who don't stick you in a nursing home. A robot can't choose to love you. It is in it's programming. It thinks and feels what you tell it to.

Eh, I've had several hand to hand combat with my brother and we ALWAYS make up after. We're what you'd considered heathens, but we're still very morally minded people because our parents taught us love of family. I don't need religion to tell me to love my family when I already do love them.

Morality existed before organized religion. Laws are first based on morality and then as we are more civilized and know more about morality, laws change to adjust. Organized religion came along and takes credit for what already existed before it.

The easiest road to morality is the road less taken, the narrow path of the Bible. The Bible is a compilation of a journey of a people who have been enlightened via divine intervention. People who have walked among the world's greatest man(God incarnate). People who have discovered life's most hidden obscure secrets. The most complex resolution...Simplicity.

"God incarnate", I'll call him Christ. The easiest road to morality is love.

Now a group of people who are trying to keep the good of our country and are Christian works smoothly. Why? They have a common enemy.

So, you seem to be suggesting the rest of us non-Christians to be to common enemy. Do you hear how hateful that sounds?

[strice]

yes, christianity only works because it generates a common hatred, which, ironically, is something advocated against in the bible.
morals aren't there because some stupid superpower decided to put them there. humans evolved to work together, and these morals emerged because stealing and killing each other wasnot conducive to a forward thinking society. i don't see how past generations were at all "wiser". yeah, sure, it was awesome when they discrimnated against the chinese during the gold rush. and yeah, preventing interracial marriage? of course we should go back to that because they're sooooo much wiser. thats rubbish. in order to survive we must progress, or we will be choked on our irrational fear of the new.

[sammi rules you]

yes, christianity only works because it generates a common hatred, which, ironically, is something advocated against in the bible.
morals aren't there because some stupid superpower decided to put them there. humans evolved to work together, and these morals emerged because stealing and killing each other wasnot conducive to a forward thinking society. i don't see how past generations were at all "wiser". yeah, sure, it was awesome when they discrimnated against the chinese during the gold rush. and yeah, preventing interracial marriage? of course we should go back to that because they're sooooo much wiser. thats rubbish. in order to survive we must progress, or we will be choked on our irrational fear of the new.

you should be a public speaker. run for president when you get older.

uninspiredfae, i ditto the half of your post i read. because i didn't read all of it. it's much too long.

[sikdragon]

Wow, i dont think anyone could've been that far off base.

So, you seem to be suggesting the rest of us non-Christians to be to common enemy. Do you hear how hateful that sounds? 

Im not suggesting non-christians to be the enemy, nor have i ever.
There is a saying, "hate the sin, love the sinner." Your suggested way of life concludes that you must love the sin and wait who is the sinner? That is how it is whether you realize it or not.

There is not a single viable argument through out your entire post. Just blatant misinterpretation followed by an unwilling and closed mind. I suggest you try again. You are a role model for these other younger kids on here. Try acting like it, instead of just bashing and arguing semantics with those who oppose your views and debate. Good try though.

There is no hint of hatred through out my whole post.

[sammi rules you]

Wow, i dont think anyone could've been that far off base.

Im not suggesting non-christians to be the enemy, nor have i ever.
There is a saying, "hate the sin, love the sinner." Your suggested way of life concludes that you must love the sin and wait who is the sinner? That is how it is whether you realize it or not.

There is not a single viable argument through out your entire post. Just blatant misinterpretation followed by an unwilling and closed mind. I suggest you try again. You are a role model for these other younger kids on here. Try acting like it, instead of just bashing and arguing semantics with those who oppose your views and debate. Good try though.

There is no hint of hatred through out my whole post.

you realize you just told her not to debate in the debate forum, right?

non-christians don't "love the sin". explain to me how that is.

[sikdragon]

no i told her to debate and quit the other stuff. I AM NOT GROUPING ALL NON-CHRISTIANS TOGETHER. Quit twisting my words.

[ComradeRed]

Does the Republican Party AT LARGE support Christian values? Yes.

Does Bush? Certainly not. America's biggest family values association (www.familyrightsassociation.com) endorsed Badnarik. And American Conservative, the most widely read conservative Christian magazine, refuses to endorse Bush.

[sikdragon]

so...? What does that have to with what i said? Ignorance is a dangerous weapon.

[strice]

what i don't understand is how you can cast the founding fathers as ultra right wing maniacs like yourself when they were, in reality, the liberal extremists of their time.

[expoised]

silkdragon...

i agree with some of the things you say... but not the way you say them.

you're making Christians sound unloving, single-minded, and stupid.

please dont. you make valid points, but you don't have to bring people down with the things you say. and even though you point out there's no hatred in all your posts, you've said a lot of things out of... spite...

i'm not going back and reading everything, i've already given my 2 cents about Christians being republicans.

and another point... when i was on the debate team... we actually stayed ON TOPIC.. instead of straying way out there...

[sunissed14127]

i think any religion can be any thing they want. just because it says that in the bible,doesnt mean they cant be a democrat or w/e they want to be.

[*MiSSTHaNG*]

Kerry has said that he is trying to take whats left of the bible out of the schools, laws, etc. he has also not only seemed partial to abortion but to partial birth abortion...did you know that abortion is getting so bad that they are starting to kill premature babies and still entitling it abortion...so...I guess a baby isnt a living thing? hmmm...and the gay and lesbian marriages are against the christian religion( me being in this religion) I oppose it to a point...but I dont have the room to judge those..I just have to love them...but times are getting bad...do we really want kerry in office? yes...he is an awesome arguer...and he seems pretty cool about some stuff...but we need to know that the future of america could be turning slitely into communism in the points of view of christians.

I am going to admit. I am scared right now. I am scared that one day I wont have the freedom to pray...or go to church...or read my bible...even if you dont believe in God...please...dont support someone who may be the beginning of the end of freedom of religion...please dont be.

as far as christians being republicans...for the most part I am a republlican...not always...but in this case...I am completely relying on pres. bush!

[Spirited Away]

Wow, i dont think anyone could've been that far off base.

Am I? If you think I'm off base, then I think you should choose better words to explain your views.

Im not suggesting non-christians to be the enemy, nor have i ever.
There is a saying, "hate the sin, love the sinner." Your suggested way of life concludes that you must love the sin and wait who is the sinner? That is how it is whether you realize it or not.

If that's not what you were suggesting, then who is the "commong enemy" all Christians have?

No, what YOU FAIL to realize in your black and white world is that there are exceptions to sin that can be forgiven if God holds ANY love for mankind. If your God sees things in black and white as you do, then I nothing more to say. However, ALL Christians claim that they cannot fully understand the ways of God, therefore, you cannot claim to know EXACTLY how God feels about any one sin. That would means you know what God thinks and you would be next to perfect.

Hate the sin, but love the sinner? I do not hate the sin if the situation canjustify it. Hatred isn't the way I choose to live life. Love the sinner? I cannot love one who murders and rapes innocents. That is the way of MY life, whether you like it or not. Free will, right?

There is not a single viable argument through out your entire post. Just blatant misinterpretation followed by an unwilling and closed mind. I suggest you try again. You are a role model for these other younger kids on here. Try acting like it, instead of just bashing and arguing semantics with those who oppose your views and debate. Good try though.

Who is more close-minded? One who thinks he knows ALL the answers, or one who thinks she must be open to possibilities to other answers? Oh yes, m'dear, real close minded. I wonder if you know what it means .

There is no hint of hatred through out my whole post.

Once more, if you think that way, then learn to word things better. After all, everyone is sensing some deep bitterness from your posts.

Why do you have a "common enemy" if you do not hate the enemy? If you do not hate the enemy then they wouldn't be called enemy, but friend.

[sammi rules you]

Kerry has said that he is trying to take whats left of the bible out of the schools, laws, etc. he has also not only seemed partial to abortion but to partial birth abortion...did you know that abortion is getting so bad that they are starting to kill premature babies and still entitling it abortion...so...I guess a baby isnt a living thing? hmmm...and the gay and lesbian marriages are against the christian religion( me being in this religion) I oppose it to a point...but I dont have the room to judge those..I just have to love them...but times are getting bad...do we really want kerry in office? yes...he is an awesome arguer...and he seems pretty cool about some stuff...but we need to know that the future of america could be turning slitely into communism in the points of view of christians.

I am going to admit. I am scared right now. I am scared that one day I wont have the freedom to pray...or go to church...or read my bible...even if you dont believe in God...please...dont support someone who may be the beginning of the end of freedom of religion...please dont be.

as far as christians being republicans...for the most part I am a republlican...not always...but in this case...I am completely relying on pres. bush!

how is he bringing an end to the freedom of religion if he takes a certain religion out of public school systems and such? to me, it sounds like that's extending the freedom of religion. the country isn't based on christianity, so..taking it out of laws would be making it easier on other religions.

[sikdragon]

bitterness and spite... these are being confused with frustration. Not with you guys necassarily. None of you know about my life, nor do i expect you to. I get back from a tough day of unfairness and loss and defend my case against people not all of you, but some people who just assume im an ignorant a-hole because of the beliefs i have and their misconceptions of those beliefs. I am open to new ideas. Just because you have failed to present one that makes more sense than mine doesnt make me close-minded. If you have read any of my arguements with comrade red you would have seen on occasion he corrected me and I changed my position. He enlightened me, if you will. There was an actual intellectual back and forth for awhile.

how is he bringing an end to the freedom of religion if he takes a certain religion out of public school systems and such? to me, it sounds like that's extending the freedom of religion. the country isn't based on christianity, so..taking it out of laws would be making it easier on other religions.

easier on other religions?? the one sided singling out and oppression of one religion because of it's roots just so they can group all religions together into one and claim all religion is just fanatic cult groups is discrimination of such a kind that it makes the kkk look loving and accepting of interracial relationships. Yeah that seems a bit harsh but only because we all have be desensitized to such a degree that we don't see it all going on around us. More christians have been persecuted in this century than the rest of the history of their persecution combined. It's starting in this country. People like Kerry and Michael Moore are laying out the blue prints for future generations. In New York it is illegal to display the nativity scene by it's self. The Crescent and the David's star are just fine.

A divided kingdom will not stand, but crumble. For Kerry to be Christian and a part of the party whose opposition to christianity, or any religion for that matter, having any credibility just fits his consistency of inconsistence in his campaign and public lifestyle.

[strice]

sik, it would help if you didn't make statements that are plain untrue.

[sikdragon]

plain untrue??? which one was untrue?

[Spirited Away]

bitterness and spite... these are being confused with frustration. Not with you guys necassarily. None of you know about my life, nor do i expect you to.  I get back from a tough day of unfairness and loss and defend my case against people not all of you, but some people who just assume im an ignorant a-hole because of the beliefs i have and their misconceptions of those beliefs. I am open to new ideas. Just because you have failed to present one that makes more sense than mine doesnt make me close-minded. If you have read any of my arguements with comrade red you would have seen on occasion he corrected me and I changed my position. He enlightened me, if you will. There was an actual intellectual back and forth for awhile.

You mean people assume you're ignorant, just like the way you assume non-Christians are ignorant because we do not agree with you about life/death/God? What goes around, comes around.

Just because you've a firm stand about what you believe in and refuse to believe anything I say doesn't mean that my case doesn't make sense. In fact, many people agree with my case over yours even though I have don't have a firm knowledge of the world. That is, I believe in possibilities, thus I can be convinced, and this is a weakness when I make my arguements because you KNOW that you can convince me if you make sense. Your case will make sense once you practice what you preach. It confuses us when you speak with anger, yet claim that you follow the Bible and that you're only a messenger. As I've said, messengers do not argue. Maybe you're a special messenger? I don't know.

ComeradeRed enlightened me and continues to do so on a timely basis. I don't even need to argue with him to know what make sense and what doesn't.

Your need to prove your belief is the one true one is what drives the rest of us to defend ourselves against your claims. If anyone is attacking, it is the one who claims his belief is the only one that's right.

[razbus]

Kerry has said that he is trying to take whats left of the bible out of the schools, laws, etc. he has also not only seemed partial to abortion but to partial birth abortion...did you know that abortion is getting so bad that they are starting to kill premature babies and still entitling it abortion...so...I guess a baby isnt a living thing? hmmm...and the gay and lesbian marriages are against the christian religion( me being in this religion) I oppose it to a point...but I dont have the room to judge those..I just have to love them...but times are getting bad...do we really want kerry in office? yes...he is an awesome arguer...and he seems pretty cool about some stuff...but we need to know that the future of america could be turning slitely into communism in the points of view of christians.

I am going to admit. I am scared right now. I am scared that one day I wont have the freedom to pray...or go to church...or read my bible...even if you dont believe in God...please...dont support someone who may be the beginning of the end of freedom of religion...please dont be.

as far as christians being republicans...for the most part I am a republlican...not always...but in this case...I am completely relying on pres. bush!

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you honestly think that if kerry is elected that the world will f*cking explode and dogs will running around eating people and christianity will die?!!!??!!!

[razbus]

Religion is what made this country great. It's homosexuals and the like that are destroying it. Perversness should not be made legal just because you have beef with your creator. Got questions about what i just said PM, IM, or Email about it. This thread is dead to me.

I cant believe you actually said those words. What kind of ignorant, egotistical a-hole are you? Homosexuals are destroying the country? You know, i can just see you now running around in your white hood and overalls. You dont know anything about anything, and its probly not your fault. It was probly passed down from your father, and his father, and so on.

[sammi rules you]

easier on other religions?? the one sided singling out and oppression of one religion because of it's roots just so they can group all religions together into one and claim all religion is just fanatic cult groups is discrimination of such a kind that it makes the kkk look loving and accepting of interracial relationships. Yeah that seems a bit harsh but only because we all have be desensitized to such a degree that we don't see it all going on around us. More christians have been persecuted in this century than the rest of the history of their persecution combined. It's starting in this country. People like Kerry and Michael Moore are laying out the blue prints for future generations. In New York it is illegal to display the nativity scene by it's self. The Crescent and the David's star are just fine.

A divided kingdom will not stand, but crumble. For Kerry to be Christian and a part of the party whose opposition to christianity, or any religion for that matter, having any credibility just fits his consistency of inconsistence in his campaign and public lifestyle.

wth? kerry isn't trying to kill christianity! he IS christian for pete's sake! all he's doing is taking it out of public places in which other religions practice. people don't need to be taught and practice christianity when they're not christian.

the persecution thing is completely untrue. this century? hmm let's see this century's been like what, 4 years? 9/11 happened in this century. i believe many many mulisms and islamics were persecuted for that. i have yet to hear of a mass persecution of christians..want me to mention, oh maybe, the HOLOCAUST? christians are not the only ones persecuted, honey.

democratics are not opposed to christianity. where you got that i have no idea.

[Saeglopur]

Religion is what made this country great. It's homosexuals and the like that are destroying it. Perversness should not be made legal just because you have beef with your creator. Got questions about what i just said PM, IM, or Email about it. This thread is dead to me. 

I cant believe you actually said those words. What kind of ignorant, egotistical a-hole are you? Homosexuals are destroying the country? You know, i can just see you now running around in your white hood and overalls. You dont know anything about anything, and its probly not your fault. It was probly passed down from your father, and his father, and so on.

Crap, sikdragon, crap. Homosexuality is damaging the country? How? How are they damaging the country? Are they not providing jobs for anyone? Are they the ones who killed millions? How can you make a judgement with these innocent people? Just because you think that what they choose to be or what they are is wrong does not mean they are destroying our country. You have no idea about homosexuality.

[Spirited Away]

easier on other religions?? the one sided singling out and oppression of one religion because of it's roots just so they can group all religions together into one and claim all religion is just fanatic cult groups is discrimination of such a kind that it makes the kkk look loving and accepting of interracial relationships. Yeah that seems a bit harsh but only because we all have be desensitized to such a degree that we don't see it all going on around us. More christians have been persecuted in this century than the rest of the history of their persecution combined. It's starting in this country.

Uh, yea. Where are you getting your statistics that Christians are persecuted more in this century than the rest of history? Like the mod said, this century is barely 4 years old.

This is what I mean when you give unproved claims. Sunday school sessions are teaching you one side of history and you are happy with that. Now then, look in the real world and learn about how Christians persecuted "heathens" and/or "pagans", and/or " the wicked", and/or "devil worshipers", and/or "idol worshipers" since its formation. And here I thought you said you make sense!

Stop spitting out nonesense! Other religious groups have been persecuted in ways that Christians will ever understand.

Anyway, according to you, Christians are being persecuted yet you are persecuting homosexuals with your blatant disrespect for it... once more, what goes around comes around.

[*MiSSTHaNG*]

I think that some of you have no clue what is going on. Someone once said that if you refuse to learn about history you will be forced to repeat it. You think you know what is going on but you dont! Lets talk about homosecual relationships. Why is it that you have to go for a person of the same gender? Most people will tell you that other sexes do not "have" what they "need". I think this is disgusting and perverted.
we are living in a sick world. Sex has become a normal everyday thing. That is disgusting. Morally, religiously, and culturally marriage has always been expected before having sex.
Girls...wouldnt you like to look at yourself and think that money wise that you are priceless. well...these days...we are worth nothing. we are played around with and thrown to the curb. Kerry does nothing but help that to become more widely spread. I am sooo sad to see that most of you are only like 14 and you think you know how things are suppose to be. I learned these common sense morals when I was 2! It is time you guys grew up! as far as religion goes...I will never force my religion on anybody...but I think that kerry was not going for the same moral concepts that I have believed in...therefore...I did not cheer him on. and bush has won...rightfully so.

[strice]

plain untrue??? which one was untrue?

need i say more?



thang, it is a little more than ironic that you are calling us immature for being tolerant.

[pandamonium]

TO ME in my opinion i dont they they should be christian cause if RELGION & GOVERNMENT bind together we would have so many problems. like

GAY MARRIAGES
WOMEN GETTING THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN ABORTION
etc.....

those two cannot pair up together ... so thats why i dont believe it should happen.

[angelbaby317]

kerry is christian; that's why i get so pissed off when one of my friends, john, tells me he'd vote for bush mostly because he's a strong christian.

yes, there should be separation between church and state. laws for the country should not be made according to the leaders religion. if bush made a reason against gay marriages that wasn't religious, i might consider him.

till then, it's all kerry. *fistpump* personally, he's against these things, but he wouldn't make laws about them according to his religion.

I understand what your saying. Kerry is Christian. But Christians dislike him because he's breaking Christian rules. (Abortion, gay marraige, ect.) Christians don't believe in that. Bush is also Christian. But there is a difference. Kerry is breaking Christian rules and Bush isn't. Thats why Christians don't like Kerry. But I see what you mean.

[sikdragon]

Im not calling you immature for being tolerant. You just fail to grasp the true situation and in effort to find yourselves you come across some propoganda and claim to know what's going on. So it's all mostly a misunderstanding.

[Spirited Away]

Im not calling you immature for being tolerant. You just fail to grasp the true situation and in effort to find yourselves you come across some propoganda and claim to know what's going on. So it's all mostly a misunderstanding.

Even though we're kind of close to being on the same page about Bush, I can't see why Strice is on the propaganda wagon but we're... not? How did that happened? In situations like these, the phase "takes one to know one" and "the pot calling the kettle black" fit well doesn't don't they?

[strice]

the immaturity thing was directed at missthang, but whatever. i don't know what "propaganda" you're talking about. i don't see ads on TV touting the greatness of homosexuality or read articles about how much religion sucks.you really have to stop making things up.

[Spirited Away]

I read just as what other people who must read to increase knowledge. It's very offensive if you think I only read anti-religious books . What's more interesting though is that you think propaganda is limitted to TV.

[sikdragon]

The majority of the population are still believers of some sort and an open attack of their beliefs and philosophies in plain daylight would cause a backlash and dispersion of support among different parties leaving only an enemy of those who tried and an army against them. They must use the cover of night working only where the darkness best suits their agenda. There will be a time when the daylight will no longer matter, for the night will swallow all of whom would have seen their misdeeds. The night of which the sun grants the moon recess to prance about upon it's given surface. The sun watches only the crooked smile of the moon while leaving it's actions unnoticed. Soon the Sun having knowledge of the moon and the minions of the night will shine upon the night ending their recess giving them their just reward as the continuance of sunshine rains upon rewarding those without dialated pupils.

[strice]

I read just as what other people who must read to increase knowledge. It's very offensive if you think I only read anti-religious books . What's more interesting though is that you think propaganda is limitted to TV.

that wasn't directed at you and i didn't say it was limited to TV. notice the "read articles" part. most people don't read articles on TV. dude, i hate this place. i'm gone, again.

[sadolakced acid]

bush and kerry have basically the same beliefs.

there is a key difference.


bush wants to force his beliefs on everyone.

kerry wants to let people choose what thier beliefs are.


" god bless america, but only the christian americans because i'm going to screw al the infidels over by making christian laws and making this a christian nation because that's why our founding fathers made sure religion wasn't in the constitution it was so we could make it a christian country god bless america and read the bible and thank all you christians for voting for me because i'm going to make it a christian country. "

- a bit of a run on, and he never really said that. and never will. he's a bit smarter than that. but that's basically what he means in his stances.

[Spirited Away]

that wasn't directed at you and i didn't say it was limited to TV. notice the "read articles" part. most people don't read articles on TV. dude, i hate this place. i'm gone, again.

Come on, babe. I pick at almost everyone, you know that. Just because we got a kind of history doesn't mean I don't like you. Don't take what I say too personally. You're fun to have around.

[sikdragon]

kerry has no beliefs that have been released to the public. He has pandered to so many audiences there is no way to tell. He needs an autobiography just explaining it all, because right now his stance is with one foot on both sides of the line. Like a serpent waiting for there to be a victor at which he can slither to and wrap himself around sucking the life from him so that he one day should be king of the forest.

[sadolakced acid]

i'm sorry if his stances are too intellegent for some people to understand.


all you have to know is this: he belives one thing, but when asked what he's going to do, he'll say another because he knows it's not right to force your belief upon another.

[sikdragon]

acid: Bush does not force his beliefs upon others. Just because he practices his freedom of religion and sometimes practices what he believes in public or makes statements that identify God does not mean what you're saying it means. noone is forcing anything on anyone except you and your stereotypical prejudices against christians.
Im sorry to say this, but you shouldn't make things up just to support the unsupportable. Kerry has never said that and im pretty sure he doesn't even know that's an issue that divides him and bush.

[Spirited Away]

noone is forcing anything on anyone except you and your stereotypical prejudices against christians.

Mr Acid is just as prejudice towards Christians as your are towards non-Christians.

I just wanted to make that clear so it doesn't look like anyone is trying to be better than his opponent...

[lanbexx]

about the gay issue:
What if you were one of them? think about it. The world hates you because you are different than what they want you to be. The world got their idea from some book. Are you not allowed to express who you are because of a religion that you may or may not believe in? Nowadays, there are even gay ministers. Can you doubt their faith because of their sexual alignment?

Also, how do you know the bible is the truth? Ive been to church, and when i ask the question, they try to avoid it or give dumb answers such as "Because it is." For all we know, some dudes might have just made it up. More likely it was misinterpretation. So if christians cant even explain the book their religion is based upon, how can they be so pompous to try and force their ideals on the country?

[sikdragon]

The country's first colonists supported the bible. It was already here so how is it being forced upon an unwilling country?

Mr Acid is just as prejudice towards Christians as your are towards non-Christians.

I just wanted to make that clear so it doesn't look like anyone is trying to be better than his opponent... 

am i really? hmmm...... i think your tongue is twisting as a serpent. Changing my words to suit your own denial and self indulgence.

about the gay issue:
What if you were one of them? think about it. The world hates you because you are different than what they want you to be. The world got their idea from some book. Are you not allowed to express who you are because of a religion that you may or may not believe in? Nowadays, there are even gay ministers. Can you doubt their faith because of their sexual alignment?

Also, how do you know the bible is the truth? Ive been to church, and when i ask the question, they try to avoid it or give dumb answers such as "Because it is." For all we know, some dudes might have just made it up. More likely it was misinterpretation. So if christians cant even explain the book their religion is based upon, how can they be so pompous to try and force their ideals on the country?

No one who really follows the Bible hates any fagg or lesbian. The Bible teaches to love the sinner hate the sin. Anyone does not abide by that is not really following the bible.

Like Muslims who do not kill the infidel are not following the scripture they claim to.

All hypocrates.

Gay ministers should not be allowed to be ministers why? not just because they are gay, but because it is a practiced sin. Like a practicing thief should not run a cash register. A practicing lack of morals should not teach others about morals.

homosexuality is a choice not a disease or birth defect. a fetish for killing someone is still wrong even if the other person said it was ok. Still a choice not a demand by one's innerbeing, but a whisper from beyond the shadows in an early grave of loose dirt.

[Spirited Away]

am i really? hmmm...... i think your tongue is twisting as a serpent. Changing my words to suit your own denial and self indulgence.

Eh, better a serpent and be outwardly evil, then to be an evil that's claims goodness. While I'm guilty of a slithering tongue, you're guilty of hiding your tongue to trick people.

[sikdragon]

trick people? being open a forward is trickery? defending my beliefs against the critics is trickery? I am many things, but i am not a liar.

You insult my honor and attack my accountablity, and for what?
You're inability to cope with truth has taken you to name calling?

I must've way over estimated you.

[Spirited Away]

trick people? being open a forward is trickery? defending my beliefs against the critics is trickery? I am many things, but i am not a liar.

Yea, like how you didn't lie about being a messenger and then stayed to argue and argue and argue. Messengers don't argue.

You insult my honor and attack my accountablity, and for what?
You're inability to cope with truth has taken you to name calling?

So what were you doing if you weren't insulting MY honor and attacking MY accountibility when you said my "tongue is twisting as a serpent". I guess you, too, are inable to cope with truth and you had to name call people to make you feel better. There, there. I understand, we are the same after all. You're just a little shy in showing your evil, but no body is perfect.

I must've way over estimated you.

Why, I'm absoluely honor that you have overestimated me. I'm a woman, after all, and weak and I am beneath your male greatness.

[sikdragon]

you're accusation was unfounded. A messenger in the debate section argues and defends the message when attacked and when the messenger is to deliver the message to an unknown number of people it may take time.

[sikdragon]

now you accept evil as an inevitability? when did that happen?

[Spirited Away]

you're accusation was unfounded. A messenger in the debate section argues and defends the message when attacked and when the messenger is to deliver the message to an unknown number of people it may take time.

So there are different kinds of messenger? What kinds are there in the Bible?

Defending what you know means you are confident in what you know. However, you don't only defend, you attack. That means you're not just a messenger. You have too much pride in your belief. A good thing, I suppose, but I thought pride is a sin.

now you accept evil as an inevitability? when did that happen?

Since you think I am.

I will answer you in Christianity thread later. Must go to school and finish homework. Ta tah!~~

[sikdragon]

No only one kind, they differ with their situation.

I was just using the simile to describe the fact that you were not getting the true meaning of my words and using it to justify your reasoning behind the way you attack rather than debate, atleast in this situation.

Note:Pride in one's self is a sin. Pride in God's creative power and control and grace is not.

[Spirited Away]

The fact that you say "differ" means that there are different messengers. There are one kind of messenger but they act differently. Thus no messenger is the same. However, their job is to give the message, not to defend it. If they defend their messages, then they are no longer messagers, but defenders.

You misunderstand. I understand your words perfectly and so did Mr. Acid. You were very clear when you said that Mr. Acid holds prejudice but you forgot to mention that you holds prejudice as well, and so do I. It's not surprise that those who have strong belief are prejudice against those who do not believe the same. That's what I meant. I felt that you excluding yourself from prejudice would do no good when the obvious is apparent.

My reasoning was only based on your accusation towards Mr. Acid.

Pride in God is not sin, but pride in believing God is true and what you believe in is true should be sinful. After all, you have pride in yourself that what you believe in is true.

Okay... class time.

[sadolakced acid]

yes mr. acid is prejudiced against christians, in certain aspects.

but i can be. i went to a christian private school, because the public school system sucked where i lived.

i got taught that other religions sucked, that i should belive in jesus, and that other religions sucked.

i am prejudiced against christians in matters of religion. and not all christains, just those who think thier religion is superior.


and this, my friend, was a matter of relgion.

bush and kerry both are christian.


bush forces parts of his christianity upon others.

nationwide school prayer? just one thing he supports.

[Spirited Away]

yes mr. acid

I love how you use my name for you Made me ticklish somehow.

[sikdragon]

I do have faults, but im not prejudiced with anyone. All my judgements appear as the reason for those judgements. i seek truth and knowledge. while twisting my words to change my appearance does have the characteristics a serpent's tongue and assuming things without hearing me out also is to the effect of one with prejudiced. Searching for the evil in people blinds you to the good in them.

[Spirited Away]

And here I thought you were perfect.

Prejudice is a matter of opinion in our conversation. While you do not think that you're exerting prejudice, the people who read what you write certainly think so. While it's hard to accept that your words do hurt/annoy others, the reality of it is hardly debatable.

We non religious affliates are minorities, do you disagree? If anyone is not being heard, it is us. What we say have no affect and will not be agreed with simply because we are out numbered. In addition, we Agnostics and Atheists tend to follow concepts and this makes us more divided than organized religions. This matters not because we retain that which is true to our own life, or at least that is how I see it.

You understand of course, what you experience in this very forum is what non-Christians suffer everyday. Confused? You shouldn't be. Inside this forum, though we are minorities, we have the chance to have our say but outside this forum, we are voiceless minorities. It's not because we are afraid to speak against the mass, far from it, it is because we will not be listened to.

You heard me. We are not listened to. Surprised now, are we? Don't be. The most intelligent of men were persecuted by the "good" faith of others simply because they were not listened to no matter how strong their voice rang out. In fact, the louder they were, the more they were punished for it. That is what history has taught us about religion: "might is right".

If you consider speaking plainly to be the works of the Devil, I cannot stop you from amusing yourself with that thought. My words may have come from "self-indulgence", you called it, but they were well thought out. I usually do not say things without weighing its consequences.

[sadolakced acid]

when mr. acid needs to refer to himself in third, sadolakced acid is too long to type. in addition, mr. acid likes mr. acid, because... it's shorter and sounds cool.


anyways.

the reason that government and religion need to be separate is if you have a strong christian president, will he ignore religous teachings and be a leader based on what's best for his country?

don't you hate how bush had divided the country?

i pledge alleigance to the flag of the divided states of america. and to the republicans and the democrates, one nation, red and blue, divisible, with liberty and justice for half.

it is tradition that in wartime bipartisan cabinets are appointed because we unite against a common enemy.

the is the only foriegn war that has divided people so.

this is not what a wartime president should do.

a wartime president should unite a country, even if it means ignoring his christian beliefs when it comes to being a president.

and bush isn't doing that.

[Spirited Away]

when mr. acid needs to refer to himself in third, sadolakced acid is too long to type. in addition, mr. acid likes mr. acid, because... it's shorter and sounds cool.

YaY!

the reason that government and religion need to be separate is if you have a strong christian president, will he ignore religous teachings and be a leader based on what's best for his country? 

So long as nothing is required of me to pray to the Christian God, I do not feel as if religion is affecting my way of life.

don't you hate how bush had divided the country? 

In my opinion, I do not think he was the only dividing factor during the last six months or so. Sure, we do not agree on the Iraqi war, tax cuts, stem cell research, but division happens in almost every decade. More serious ones, American Revolution and the Civil Rights Movement for example, helped to form what is America today.

and bush isn't doing that.

He cannot do that no matter what he does. Think about it with me here. If he were to completely pull out NOW, there will be many who will dislike him. If he continues in there people like you will dislike him. There is nothing to do but move forward what what he has started.

[sadolakced acid]

exactly...

it's like the riddle...


a man is stuck on a ledge with sweet wild strawberrys on it halfway down a cliff. below are sharp rocks, and above are rabid hyenas. what should he do?

eat the strawberrys.

bush is stuck and is now doing the best he can. maybe the best anyone can.

america was rather unified after 9/11 and afghanistan... i'm sure that if bush had never go into iraq that we would still be a pretty unified country...


the way bush is handling iraq now is the only way to handle it...

i'm just concerned about future threats.

iran?
Lybia?
N. korea?

all are threats.

what if one attacks? we don't have any spare troops. what will we do?

there is only one thing... a draft. even though bush says he won't have one, the circumstances would require one.

[Spirited Away]

Well, I'm as stumped as you are on future threats.

What's the reasoning behind the man for being stuck in the first place, though?

[sadolakced acid]

none. the man's on the ledge.


well, what i think Bush should do is simple: the insurgents want iraq, we'll give it to them.

we make a deal, we'll pull out of iraq 6 months after a government is established, if they won't interfere. insurgents can run, they can vote, they can do anything except kill people.

request UN help.

let other countries help with rebuilding.

[Spirited Away]

none. the man's on the ledge.

There must be something that happened that forced him to the ledge. I mean, was he chased by wolves or fell from somewhere higher.

well, what i think Bush should do is simple:  the insurgents want iraq, we'll give it to them. 

What happens of if terrorists occupy it after we leave. (I really don't know if that's possible since I don't know much about terrorist behavior).

we make a deal, we'll pull out of iraq 6 months after a government is established, if they won't interfere.  insurgents can run, they can vote, they can do anything except kill people. 

That's a sound idea, I guess.

[ComradeRed]

Yes, and they'd win too.

Polls of Iraqi voters show that support for the insurgency is high. And as many as 42% are considering to vote for Saddam Hussein in the election

[sadolakced acid]

so then we are conquerors. we are only liberators when we have the approval of a large majority...

the iraqi people don't like what we're doing... they view us as invaders...

simply put, if iraq was to have a true election, either an insurgent or sadamn will be elected.

[sikdragon]

pollers only poll those who give them the results they want. Try asking for an unbiased poll to judge the stability of our accountability in Iraq.

[ComradeRed]

What do you mean by an "unbiased" poll? I think Gallup is pretty unbiased... Even Fox News's poll shows that fewer than 2% of non-Kurdish Iraqis are welcoming of our troops.

"Iraqis are tired of foreign people coming into their country and trying to destabilize their country."
--George W. Bush

[sikdragon]

Fox news may be fair and balanced, but what about the people that actually took the poll. and gallup is something ive never heard of so their credibility cannot be found for being either good or bad.

Bush didn't say the iraqis were not grateful for their own government of which america is installing for them.

[sadolakced acid]

i'd assume american pollers would be biased towards america, don't you think?

[sikdragon]

Nope. If you did then your assumption is wrong. You'd assume an American naval commander would make himself and those he stood with look good, but everybody has their price.

[ComradeRed]

Fox news may be fair and balanced, but what about the people that actually took the poll. and gallup is something ive never heard of so their credibility cannot be found for being either good or bad.

Bush didn't say the iraqis were not grateful for their own government of which america is installing for them.

Uh... you've never heard of Gallup? Haven't you ever heard of "Gallup Poll"

Gallup is the polling organization that's been polling for the longest and is considered the most trustworthy polling agency.

Of course the people that otok the poll are going to have their own opinions -- that's the POINT of the poll, to see what people's opinions are.

"their own government of which america is installing for them."
Anyone see teh contradiction in that? If it's their own government, they should make it, not us.

[sikdragon]

took the poll of iraqi opinion.

They can't their neighbors won't let them.

[sadolakced acid]

you mean we won't let them.

[ComradeRed]

Um... Iraq has never been invaded by a neighboring country for fifteen years.

[sikdragon]

invasion is the only thing to be feared? So, terrorism has no bearing on the well-being of a hated act.

[sickdragon]

That's right, those damn Turks and Syrians and Iranians have been sending lots of terrorists into Iraq for 15 years and blowing stuff up and not letting them make their own government, but when America blows stuff up it helps them make their own government and I'm right because God said so and kill the infidels becaus ethere is no terrorism if everyone worships the one true GOd and OMG I OWNZ JOO!!

[sikdragon]

you cant be serious.

[ComradeRed]

What terrorism? Most insurgents are identified as Iraqi nationals, many of them were former members of the Iraqi army. Considering that the countries around Iraq except for Turkey have all closed their borders, there are very few foreign fighters in Iraq.

PEW Research interviewed a few hundred US Marines. 35% say that they have killed an enemy noncombatant, and 80% say that they have killed an enemy combatant. This means that the absolute minimum amount of civilians killed by the US Marines is about 23,000. When you add in the amount of civilians killed by the US Air Force and US Army, it is believable that we have killed probably close to 50,000 Iraqi civilians in one year. In Saddam Hussein's 30 years in power, he killed about 400,000. Or about 12,500 a year. Thus, we've caused four times more harm than Saddam has.

In addition, under the Geneva Convention, an occupying force is responsible for all deaths caused by resistance forces. If you add in the number of civilians killed by the insurgents, the total number of civilian deaths probably comes out to about 60 thousand.

[sadolakced acid]

the terrorists in iraq are from iraq, and are terrorists because we are invaders and they want us out.

[sickdragon]

you cant be serious.

No I'm serious. We should just convert them or kill them and then there will be no more terrorism left. You're my hero!!