PC vs MAC, TELL ME.! Options

[Jghelfi]

okay, i have always been wanting a mac since the first time i used the new Macbook in my 6th period at school, but i have a refurbished old 2001 PC desktop...

can somebody tell me what is good and bad between Macs and PCs..?!

i know that PCs Crash a lot
and that
Macs come with free software in the systems already..

so please somebody carify it for me!

[illriginal]

MAC is too much money. And they still can't afford a 2 button mouse.

lol

[sixfive]

I think it's a matter of personal preference. With PC's, you can build a faster more powerful one for less money than a mac that won't perform as well. Macs on the other hand are extremely user friendly, reliable (in my experience), and pretty virus free. Granted, this is because of the operating system and not because it's assembled by Apple.

[-DressYourEyelid...]

a mac does not support any computer software/programs as they're almost all made for pcs. a pc runs programs horribly, despite the fact that they're designed for it. they're equal pieces of crap. might as well go with the cheaper one.

[sixfive]

I haven't had an issue running any programs for mac. There's often an equivalent for it, i.e. Office 2007 vs Office 2008. The only thing I really see that might influence program compatibility in the OS's is games. A lot of recent games are for Windows. There's ways around that though. With Leopard, OSX introduced bootcamp, which allows you to dual boot OSX and XP/Vista/w.e on your macbook/device.





I use a macbook for all my school, portability, music, etc. I have a computer as well, but that's primary usage is video games.

[Maccabee]

I think it's very important not to become a fan boy of either. But when it comes down to it, they both do the same thing, except odds are you will have very few or no problems with a mac. But to have a pc that is as good as a mac you would have to spend 100 dollars. Mac computers have way overpriced hardware, but that is just smart business because you can only use mac os 10 on mac hardware. So I would say if money wasn't an issue. Get a mac. Many famous internet geeks have started using macs. In the end, even though you may feel like you have learnt, and accomplished soemthing by fixing all the problems tat come with a pc, a mac just does it's job better.

The only complaint I have is, that macs are kind of, more casual. Like they dont make it easy for people like me, who want to be able to change through programs easily. Some things just take more clicks on a mac then a pc.

O and there is a right click. You just have to hold apple when you click. And all the software that comes with a mac is fantastic and all popular softwares work for mac. You just may need be able to use small freeware programs on mac.

O and like i Said, you may just want to keep a pc, to use. Or get the best of all three worlds and get a program like vmare fusion or parrelals so you can run windows or ubuntu like a program. Its called a virtual machine.

[illriginal]

I would love to build my own Mac too... but you can't do that. And the parts they have... pffft you can spend $2000 on a bad ass PC and some how those same parts or at least "performance specs" on a Mac would make that Mac cost like $6,000.

[brooklyneast05]

a mac does not support any computer software/programs as they're almost all made for pcs.

that's an out dated thing to say imo. like steven, i've never had any problem getting any software for my mac. before i got my mac everyone kept telling me that how i would have all that kinda trouble and i've never had it.


macs are more expensive but i don't regret it at all. mine cost me like 1500 or something like that. worth the extra money to me to not have to mess with all that shit i had to mess with when i had a pc. i felt like something was constantly wrong/slow/not working. if i was really into computers hardcore and stuff maybe i'd feel different because i'd be more into customizing shit and more knowledgeable about how to make my stuff run better... but i just wanna turn my computer on and do what i wanna do without it being a big ordeal all the time.

[Just_Dream]

they're equal pieces of crap.

Then don't use them. Don't complain if there's programs that help you photoshop your pictures.


Anyways, MACs are definitely not difficult to use. I feel like MACs are getting more and more affordable nowadays, even though people continuously complain about how expensive they are. Also, in terms of warranties, I feel like Apple has soooo much better customer service than PC companies, especially Dell. I HATE DELL!!!JFLKAJFS

[Maccabee]

that's an out dated thing to say imo. like steven, i've never had any problem getting any software for my mac. before i got my mac everyone kept telling me that how i would have all that kinda trouble and i've never had it.
macs are more expensive but i don't regret it at all. mine cost me like 1500 or something like that. worth the extra money to me to not have to mess with all that shit i had to mess with when i had a pc. i felt like something was constantly wrong/slow/not working. if i was really into computers hardcore and stuff maybe i'd feel different because i'd be more into customizing shit and more knowledgeable about how to make my stuff run better... but i just wanna turn my computer on and do what i wanna do without it being a big ordeal all the time.

Exactly. Thats why macs are the future.

I would suggest an imac because you get the most for your money.
And then get a cheap pc, laptop or netbook. Thats what I'm thinking about doing.

[DoubleJ]

Exactly. Thats why macs are the future.

I would suggest an imac because you get the most for your money.
And then get a cheap pc, laptop or netbook. Thats what I'm thinking about doing.

that's actually not a bad idea.

[Deospeon]

I go for PC.

Easy to build! Easy to Customize!

Mac hardly haz any games to play.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

Personally, if I want UNIX, I'll go Solaris.

I prefer Mac over Windows, but as far as UNIX, or even *nix goes, it;s not great.

[Maccabee]

Personally, if I want UNIX, I'll go Solaris.

I prefer Mac over Windows, but as far as UNIX, or even *nix goes, it;s not great.

O so you like mac...

[heyo-captain-jac...]

O so you like mac...

No, I like UNIX.

[turkishdog]

And they still can't afford a 2 button mouse.

You can change that setting on a Mac. Walah, you now have a right click.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

You can change that setting on a Mac. Walah, you now have a right click.

Voila*

[Maccabee]

Who uses a trackpad anyway?

[heyo-captain-jac...]

Who uses a trackpad anyway?

Nearly everyone who owns a laptop newer than the IBM ThinkPad

[Uronacid]

Nearly everyone who owns a laptop newer than the IBM ThinkPad

Lenovo still makes the little nub on their machines.

[sixfive]

butlollenovo

[Uronacid]

I have to say that the only reason I don't own a mac is because they're a boutique. I can do just about anything on a mac that I can do on a windows machine, and a windows machine is less expensive.

What's ironic is that many mac users buy their macs to do redundant tasks that require very little computing power to begin with. They don't need a dual core processor. They don't need a dedicated video card. All they need is a decent amount of memory (2GB+), a good sized HDD (100GB+) for music/pictures, and a single core processor. They rest of the features they require come standard with the average PC.


In terms of hardware, even the most inexpensive mac (the mac mini) at 599.99 is ridiculously expensive for what you get.
- Cannot upgrade the hardware in the machine
- Only a 2.0 Ghz Core 2 Duo?!
- 1GB of RAM?! (Granted MAC's user RAM more efficiently than PCs)
- WTF... no mouse or keyboard?! (I must have taken those for granted)
- 120GB HDD (They don't list the RPM)
+ At least you get a dedicated video card *sigh*
+ MAC OSX

But seriously, what could I purchase with $600.00 if I wanted to buy a PC?

I could buy a Dell Vostro 220 Mini tower for $469.00 (if you upgrade to Vista Premium) and then I could pop a RADEON HD 4670 ($79.99) in it for a total of $549.00 (around 600.00 with tax). What do I get with that?

+ 2.8 Ghz Core 2 Duo processor w/ 1066Mhz FSB
+ 3GB of RAM
+ 1080P 21.5" LCD
+ 500GB HDD
+ RADEON HD 4670 512MB
- Vista (Aside from being a mem hog, it's not that bad)

Anyway, I know how to use my computer and I can do just about everything someone with a mac could do +more because I just purchased a computer with superior hardware at a lower price point (PS: it also came with a HD LCD). Mac's are a waste of money to me. I wish Apple Inc would compete with lower prices.

[sixfive]

I prefer using my macbook over other laptops for every day tasks. Not so much applicable to you (at least I don't think), but Apple gives several hundred dollars in discounts to students, at least with something like my macbook.

[Uronacid]

I prefer using my macbook over other laptops for every day tasks. Not so much applicable to you (at least I don't think), but Apple gives several hundred dollars in discounts to students, at least with something like my macbook.

That's just it though, every day tasks don't require a mac book... and that's what people use them for.

[sixfive]

They're light and have a kickass battery, perfect for class.

[Uronacid]

They're light and have a kickass battery, perfect for class.

But just about every laptop these days has a good battery. Now that LCD's have LED back lit screens the battery life for all laptops has been extended... :/

[sixfive]

Not in my experience. All that shit says it'll last 3-4 hour or whatever, but when I'm running word and an internet browser, it drops to barely over 2 and a half hours. I went through 4 bullshit hours of class today and still have another hour left, at least, and I was running firefox itunes vlc word and adium.

[Uronacid]

Not in my experience. All that shit says it'll last 3-4 hour or whatever, but when I'm running word and an internet browser, it drops to barely over 2 and a half hours. I went through 4 bullshit hours of class today and still have another hour left, at least, and I was running firefox itunes vlc word and adium.

I never have a problem with my Lenovo. It usually lasts me about 5-6 hours.

[brooklyneast05]

i agree with steven. my macbook is lighter and has a better battery than the pc's i've used. even though i know there are light pc laptops...typically when i looked at those it seemed i was getting up in the macbook price range anyway so why not. mac is all i use in all my art classes anyway so i prefer it for my major.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

My old Gateway laptop, which had a Core 2 Duo overclocked to 2.8 GHz, lasted six hours on battery with Firefox, mIRC, and Second Life running.

[mipadi]

I always get a kick out of these "PC vs. Mac" debates, because I feel that the discussions are almost invariably flawed in a couple ways:

Choice

First of all, when approaching these discussions, Windows users generally approach them from the context that Windows is the choice, and anyone who chooses differently is deviating from the status quo and thus the responsibility is on them to justify their choice. In other words, Windows is the default, correct choice. But I've been using Macs since the early 90s, so from my perspective, switching to Windows is a choice that would have to be justified.

Quantitative Measurements

The PC vs. Mac often ends up in a discussion about technical merits (e.g., technical specifications), and all other aspects of the discussion are simply ignored. I think this usually happens because the participants in this discussion are geeky, and geeks love numbers; at any rate, it's easier to compare and contrast quantitative measurements, as opposed to qualitative attributes. So the discussion branches into two areas: capability and tech specs. Capability is a matter of generating a list -- "Can you browse the web on this computer? Can you play games? Can you use Microsoft Office?" -- and then ticking things off the list, and comparing the results -- "Oh! Your Mac can't play games! My PC is better." or "My PC can read email, too, so why should I buy a Mac?"

Then the conversation invariably turns to tech specs. "Your iMac is $1400. I can build a Dell with the same specs for $800. Why buy a Mac?"

What's Missing

Of course, such a discussion leaves out a very important aspect of computing: aesthetics. Because aesthetics is not easily quantifiable, it is generally left out of these debates, but it's every bit as important as the other areas (maybe even more important). By "aesthetics", I mean questions like "Is the UI attractive? Is the UI intuitive? How easy is it to install/uninstall applications? Does the UI expose powerful tools when necessary, but hide them away when I don't need or want them? How easy is it to change my (network settings, desktop settings, etc.)? Is it easy for the common developer to design attractive interfaces for their applications?" Or even more trivial aspects: "Is the form factor an ugly piece of molded plastic, or a gently-sculpted piece of aluminum?" (And if you argue that PC users don't care about that "nonsense", why do PC builders sometimes spend hundreds of dollars on a "pretty" case?)

So what the argument really boils down to is taste and priorities. What's important to you: price/performance ratio? whether the UI is pixel-perfect? ease of use? expandability? There's really no right answer here, but those questions are the basic fundamentals of the discussion -- even though everyone always focuses on capabilities and specifications.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

It's Linux vs Windows, but since Mac is a UNIX OS and Linux is UNIX-like, it's the exact same concept.

[batman]

Idk, I've had PCs up until 6 months ago when I got my Macbook and I honestly don't think I'll ever go back. I'm not a computer person by far and don't really know shit about the technicalities, so aside from statistics and what runs faster and all the other pros/cons about viruses, running programs, prices, etc etc etc... one of the main reasons why I prefer a Mac (or any Apple product) is because of excellent customer service.

All my previous laptops have crashed at one point or another and I've had to deal with over-the-phone idiots who tell me shit that I already know and tell me to do shit that I've already tried, then tell me to send in my product to the factory only to return it with all the same problems.

I love that if anything goes wrong with my Mac, I've got the apple store that is open 24/7 ready to help me out in person.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

Because I live in an obscure tourist city, where everyone goes, and no one actually stays, if I want a Mac, I would have to order it from the Apple website. Nobody really stays here long enough to buy something more expensive than a novelty mug, so I don't have the luxury of having an Apple store any closer than Alabama.

tl;dr Your customer service argument doesn't apply to everyone.

[batman]

did i say it applied to everyone? i thought i was just stating my own experience.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

I wasn't talking to you. Everyone makes the customer service argument.

[sixfive]

sucks for you

[batman]

I wasn't talking to you. Everyone makes the customer service argument.

uh, ok... you used "your" in your post, you posted right after me, and you made a direct counterargument to the whole point of my post, so obviously i'm going to think you were talking to me.

tbh, you've got way bigger problems in your life other than living in a crappy ass city with no apple store. and yes, i'm talking to you, buttsex. YOU.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

It was a counter-argument to everyone making the same argument about customer service.

I know I have bigger problems than living in a city with no Apple store, because I don't give a f*ck that I live in a city with no Apple store.

Who are you anyway? I don't think I know your username.

[Uronacid]

To be honest I have had nothing but good customer service from Dell, Lenovo, Alienware, and HP. It's no surprise that apple would treat their customers any differently. I believe Mipadi hit the nail on the head when he said...

Apple = Aesthetics
Windows = Bang for Buck

[illriginal]

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

It's Linux vs Windows, but since Mac is a UNIX OS and Linux is UNIX-like, it's the exact same concept.

That's why I never really bother to argue Linux vs. Mac.


If you ever look at both OS, their capabilities, specifically, you'll realize they do the same ol' shit out of the box.

At least from what I've compared.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

That's why I never really bother to argue Linux vs. Mac.
If you ever look at both OS, their capabilities, specifically, you'll realize they do the same ol' shit out of the box.

At least from what I've compared.

The biggest difference is that Linux is open source, and Mac is ridiculously f*cking expensive.

[mipadi]

The biggest difference is that Linux is open source, and Mac is ridiculously f*cking expensive.

Don't you (or your parents, or whomever) pay several hundred dollars a month for an Internet connection, when you can get a speedy Internet connection for, like, $40-50/month?

[brooklyneast05]

maybe it's just me but i never really thought mac was OMG SO f*ckING EXPENSIVE. spending 1000-1500 on a laptop that i use every single day for years is not a big deal to me. it's not a bad price to me at all.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

So?

I'm comparing to other *nix operating systems, not everything you could possibly have with a computer

[mipadi]

So?

I'm comparing to other *nix operating systems, not everything you could possibly have with a computer

Is this in response to my post, or JC's?

[brooklyneast05]

pretty sure it's in response to yours cause we posted at the same time i think

[illriginal]

maybe it's just me but i never really thought mac was OMG SO f*ckING EXPENSIVE. spending 1000-1500 on a laptop that i use every single day for years is not a big deal to me. it's not a bad price to me at all.

Look at the specs.


Specs is priority. I've said it before.. I could build a bad ass machine with $2000. With those same exact specs, on a Mac, it would cost a SHIT load more.

And for what? lol... just throw Linux onto that bad bish and save mad loot.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

Is this in response to my post, or JC's?

Yours.

[mipadi]

Yours.

In that case, take a look at Internet connections for a second. Fundamentally, Internet connections perform the same task: they download a stream of bytes from a remote computer. The only real difference, then, is in speed. Now, a cable connection is clearly a big step up from a dial-up connection, but as you move to faster and faster broadband connections, the law of diminishing returns applies. The point is, you (or your parents) pay a few hundred bucks a month for, fundamentally, the same service as a person with a $40/month broadband connection -- the only difference is that yours is faster. Most people would say that they'd rather pay $40/month and take a few more hours to download a movie, but clearly you feel otherwise: you've weighed your options and decided that paying much, much more per month is worth the cost, even though you could accomplish the same goal with a cheap broadband connection.

The same applies to this debate, as far as price is concerned. Sure, you can do more or less the same thing with a cheap PC and a free OS like Linux, but a lot of people -- myself included -- weigh the options and say, "Hey, a Mac is a lot nicer to use, it has nicer software, etc. etc." and are willing to pay a few hundred bucks more for an Apple laptop. (Although I'd argue that OS X and a free Unix-like OS like BSD or Linux are hardly interchangeable; I don't have much trouble installing the same tools on OS X that I use on Linux or FreeBSD, but I'd have a lot of trouble trying to run some of my OS X applications on Linux! In that sense, the functionality of OS X is a superset of that of Linux, rather than an equivalent set.)

What it comes down to is priorities.

(I'd also point out that paying a few hundred bucks more for a laptop once isn't as astounding as paying a few hundred bucks more for an Internet connection every month, but I digress. )

[brooklyneast05]

^i agree with michael. and wtf at that internet bill.



and @ illriginal, yeah i have no doubt that you could build a computer with more badass specs than mine for the same price. i get where you are coming from but eh, at the end of the day i don't really care if my specs are the best ever. most normal computer using people, we don't even want to mess with or spend the time building a computer. i wanna click order, get my computer, open it and use it, and it work without giving me problems. which is what my mac has been for the last few years to me. it's been worth every penny of 1500ish or whatever i paid for it.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

The main reason I got a fast internet connection is because I have two web servers, eight game servers, two Ventrilo servers, an IRC server, and mirror for the FacepunchStudios Distro that's in development.
Download is just an added bonus, I got that shit primarily for the upload speed.


I just don't think you get what I'm saying. For what it is, OS X is f*cking expensive. Solaris is UNIX, and it's only $30. OpenSolaris, FreeBSD, Fedora, all free. I don't see an open source version of OS X anywhere, but if I did, I would certainly have a copy.

And what can you do on OS X that you can't do just as easily (if not, easier) on an OS like Ubuntu?

It's not priorities, it's preference.

[Maccabee]

The thing is, mac is the best of both worlds. You guys say, it is just like linux, safe and light, and it has all the support for software that windows has. And the fact that they are extremely visually pleasing is a plus. O and it is true that apple is know for being very generous when it comes to customer service.

O and on a pc, you came make the battery last 60% percent longer by using the windows classic theme. But then it looks like poop, so mac is in favor again.

[illriginal]

O and on a pc, you came

wat?

[superstitious]

Don't you (or your parents, or whomever) pay several hundred dollars a month for an Internet connection, when you can get a speedy Internet connection for, like, $40-50/month?

(I'd also point out that paying a few hundred bucks more for a laptop once isn't as astounding as paying a few hundred bucks more for an Internet connection every month, but I digress. )

Quoted for f*cking truth. The day my kid asks me to pay anything close to that for internet access is the day I tell him to pay for it his damn self. LOL

And after reading all the mumbo jumbo in this thread, it really boils down to personal preference. I know, dumb it down much? I don't have the time, energy or money to spend a great deal on a system and I totally admit that I don't know much about this subject. I can give the layman's opinion though. I own a PC because it's easier and more practical for my lifestyle and needs. If I was hot and heavy about designing, I might think otherwise. Or into modeling. A friend of mine does this 3D modeling stuff and he swears by Macs.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

wat?

I did that once.


And that was the first time I died.

Quoted for f*cking truth. The day my kid asks me to pay anything close to that for internet access is the day I tell him to pay for it his damn self. LOL

And after reading all the mumbo jumbo in this thread, it really boils down to personal preference. I know, dumb it down much? I don't have the time, energy or money to spend a great deal on a system and I totally admit that I don't know much about this subject. I can give the layman's opinion though. I own a PC because it's easier and more practical for my lifestyle and needs. If I was hot and heavy about designing, I might think otherwise. Or into modeling. A friend of mine does this 3D modeling stuff and he swears by Macs.

I pay the difference. We were paying $75 before, so I'm paying around $630.

[boricua387]

You should get the mac!! its so worth the money

[Maccabee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7eU_CUIerQ

Watch it. PS: Chris now uses a mac.

[Just_Dream]

For what it is, OS X is f*cking expensive.

I still don't get how it's expensive. OS X Leopard is only $60 with a student discount right now. Windows Vista is at least twice that price, the last time I checked. And the good news is that you can install os x on multiple macs - there's no limit. It would suck if you had to pay more for something just so you could install it on a few more computers. ;'[ And I really think what you get with a os x, however "miniscule" the amount is, is worth the money. But hey, everyone has a different view on what is worth their money.

Oh yea and I paid $1100 for my macbook, and it wasn't the base model at the time, either. I think it's worth my money considering the mobility of it.

P.S. my friend's Lenovo - he's had it for less than a year - has poor battery life, despite the amount of money it costs. It's a gaming laptop, but when he's just using it for school, he's often struggling to get it to last more than an hour.

I've had problems with Dell before. And I am fortunate enough to live in a city where the nearest apple store is 10 miles away from my house, and another apple store that is 5 miles away from my university. Dell has pretty bad customer service from what I've heard from others, and what I have experienced. Everyone has different experiences, but I'm glad that my macbook hasn't crapped out on me just yet. My battery life is still the same as it was two years ago AND I use my laptop every day for random stuff.

P.S. - Who needs to pay hefty prices for internet access when I can just mooch off my uni's wifi? I rarely torrent anyway.

[*reupONtrees*]

mothaf*ckas, its called aesthetics, and yes thats the answer to every question

[illriginal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7eU_CUIerQ

Watch it. PS: Chris now uses a mac.

that's the gayest crap i've seen from him.

But this will make you lol

[heyo-captain-jac...]

I still don't get how it's expensive. OS X Leopard is only $60 with a student discount right now. Windows Vista is at least twice that price, the last time I checked. And the good news is that you can install os x on multiple macs - there's no limit. It would suck if you had to pay more for something just so you could install it on a few more computers. ;'[ And I really think what you get with a os x, however "miniscule" the amount is, is worth the money. But hey, everyone has a different view on what is worth their money.

Oh yea and I paid $1100 for my macbook, and it wasn't the base model at the time, either. I think it's worth my money considering the mobility of it.

P.S. my friend's Lenovo - he's had it for less than a year - has poor battery life, despite the amount of money it costs. It's a gaming laptop, but when he's just using it for school, he's often struggling to get it to last more than an hour.

I've had problems with Dell before. And I am fortunate enough to live in a city where the nearest apple store is 10 miles away from my house, and another apple store that is 5 miles away from my university. Dell has pretty bad customer service from what I've heard from others, and what I have experienced. Everyone has different experiences, but I'm glad that my macbook hasn't crapped out on me just yet. My battery life is still the same as it was two years ago AND I use my laptop every day for random stuff.

P.S. - Who needs to pay hefty prices for internet access when I can just mooch off my uni's wifi? I rarely torrent anyway.

I'm not talking student discounts, or Microsoft. For UNIX, OS X is ridiculously expensive.

Also, Vista is ridiculously expensive too.

[Just_Dream]

^ Do you think Adobe Photoshop is ridiculously expensive? Just wondering.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

^ Do you think Adobe Photoshop is ridiculously expensive? Just wondering.

Yes, that's why so few people buy it full price.

[mipadi]

I just don't think you get what I'm saying. For what it is, OS X is f*cking expensive. Solaris is UNIX, and it's only $30. OpenSolaris, FreeBSD, Fedora, all free. I don't see an open source version of OS X anywhere, but if I did, I would certainly have a copy.

And what can you do on OS X that you can't do just as easily (if not, easier) on an OS like Ubuntu?

It's not priorities, it's preference.

No, I get what you're saying. But you should refer to my earlier post, because you're still making an argument about capabilities that amounts to little more than a straw-man argument.

Let's look at your Internet connection issue again. Sure, you could run a couple web servers, a Ventrilo server, etc., from a cable connection -- but it wouldn't be very pleasant. Likewise, I could surf the Internet, write documents, program, etc., from a cheap laptop running Linux, but it wouldn't be as nice as doing it on a Mac.

Look at something as simple as instant messaging. On Linux, Windows, Solaris, BSD, etc., you can use Pidgin; on a Mac, Adium is the premier IM client. These two pieces of software even share a codebase, but no one mistakes one for the other, because pretty much everyone agrees that Adium is a much better piece of software. Each perform the same task, but Adium does it better.

Finally, to argue that OS X is basically the same as Solaris or Ubuntu because they're all Unix-like is a bit of a straw-man argument in and of itself. OS X has a lot of polish that's lacking in other Unix-like operating systems. It also includes a lot of libraries (Objective-C/Cocoa, for example) that aren't available on other platforms, which means that while OS X can fairly easily run software targeted at Linux, BSD, or Solaris, a lot of software targeted at OS X simply won't run on those other platforms. Looking at my Dock, frequent programs I use that only run on a Mac include Apple Mail, Newsfire, iCal, Apple Address Book, and TextMate.

(Actually, TextMate is another good example of something that's better on a Mac: it's written by a former Unix programmer who loved Emacs and wanted a better Emacs for the Mac. And TextMate follows a lot of the same design philosophy as Emacs, but is leaps and bounds ahead of anything Emacs is doing. Programmers who use both Emacs and TextMate almost universally agree that TextMate is way, way better than Emacs.)

So I think that your argument about capabilities, and your assertion that OS X is exactly like Linux and Solaris but more expensive, are both unfair because they gloss over the actual issues that illustrate differences between the platforms. Of course, aesthetics may not be important to you, but that doesn't mean they're not important at all, and you can't just write them off as trivial.

[Uronacid]

No, I get what you're saying. But you should refer to my earlier post, because you're still making an argument about capabilities that amounts to little more than a straw-man argument.

Let's look at your Internet connection issue again. Sure, you could run a couple web servers, a Ventrilo server, etc., from a cable connection -- but it wouldn't be very pleasant. Likewise, I could surf the Internet, write documents, program, etc., from a cheap laptop running Linux, but it wouldn't be as nice as doing it on a Mac.

I understand what you're saying. To be honest [ Vista | Ubuntu ] really doesn't look bad enough for me to justify spending 2x as much to get something that can do the same thing. Let's face it, Vista is not an ugly OS. At least in my opinion, OSX not as nice as it is expensive. Anyway, Apple doesn't kill you on the initial price of the computer. They hammer you with moolah when you decide to upgrade your MAC.

[illriginal]

I understand what you're saying. To be honest [ Vista | Ubuntu ] really doesn't look bad enough for me to justify spending 2x as much to get something that can do the same thing. Let's face it, Vista is not an ugly OS. At least in my opinion, OSX not as nice as it is expensive. Anyway, Apple doesn't kill you on the initial price of the computer. They hammer you with moolah when you decide to upgrade your MAC.

I just got shivers.


If they don't kill you with the cost of the computer... I would hate to see how much it costs to upgrade.

[mipadi]

I just got shivers.
If they don't kill you with the cost of the computer... I would hate to see how much it costs to upgrade.

Meh. I'm not even aware that you can really take a Mac to Apple for "upgrades". I've always just bought a hard drive/RAM/whatever from NewEgg and popped it in.

Unless Uronacid means the OS...in which case you generally have to pay for OS upgrades for commercial OSes, even in the Windows world. (Luckily, though, Apple doesn't release major upgrades on a yearly basis like they used to.)

[sixfive]

Apple doesn't use cd keys though, making it easy for you to upgrade without paying a cent and end up not having to worry about validation thirty days later.

[Uronacid]

Meh. I'm not even aware that you can really take a Mac to Apple for "upgrades". I've always just bought a hard drive/RAM/whatever from NewEgg and popped it in.

Unless Uronacid means the OS...in which case you generally have to pay for OS upgrades for commercial OSes, even in the Windows world. (Luckily, though, Apple doesn't release major upgrades on a yearly basis like they used to.)

I was referring to the upgrades you would purchase along with the initial computer. For example, the base Mac Mini computer comes with 120GB HDD. To add a 320GB HDD it will cost you an extra $175.00 more than a 120GB HDD. Now, I'm 100% sure that these aren't 10,000 RPM HDDs as they're laptop HDDs on the MAC mini... Standard laptop HDDs come with 5400 RPM but we'll kick it up a notch at 7200 RPM because this is Apple.

Fujitsu 320GB 7200 RPM HDD $70.00

$175.00 on top of the initial cost of a 120GB HDD is a f*cking rip off.

How about the upgrade from a 2.0 Ghz Core 2 Dou to a 2.4 Ghz Core 2 Dou processor for $175.00 (a totally unnecessary upgrade, but f*ck it... lets compare.) Well, this is somewhat difficult because it's a laptop processor to keep this thing from over heating, but I know sure as shit this thing is marked up at least triple.

You can get a bad ass 3.0 GHz, 3MB Cache, and 1333 FSB Core 2 Dou processor for 165.00 at Newegg. Give me a break...

[mipadi]

I was referring to the upgrades you would purchase along with the initial computer. For example, the base Mac Mini computer comes with 120GB HDD. To add a 320GB HDD it will cost you an extra $175.00 more than a 120GB HDD. Now, I'm 100% sure that these aren't 10,000 RPM HDDs as they're laptop HDDs on the MAC mini... Standard laptop HDDs come with 5400 RPM but we'll kick it up a notch at 7200 RPM because this is Apple.

Fujitsu 320GB 7200 RPM HDD $70.00

$175.00 on top of the initial cost of a 120GB HDD is a f*cking rip off.

I don't think anyone's arguing that a Mac is cheaper than a bargain-basement PC, or that Apple doesn't gouge you on (some) build-to-order options.

Plus Apple gouges on the upgrades for a Mac Mini because you kind of have to upgrade since you're stuck with what you got; the upgrades on, e.g., a Mac Pro are cheaper. I think the Mac Mini is a piece of crap anyway, and wouldn't argue that it's much of a "deal".

(Dell has some pretty ridiculous upgrade options though, too. Like, if you want Windows XP instead of Vista on a Dell desktop, you have to pay $150 more. That seems like kind of a rip-off.)

You can get a bad ass 3.0 GHz, 3MB Cache, and 1333 FSB Core 2 Dou processor for 165.00 at Newegg. Give me a break...

So what's your point? That you can build a PC from parts cheaper? Cool -- at the end of the day, you're still running Windows/Linux/whatever.*



* My point, again, goes back to the earlier post I made. Some people might be perfectly happy with Windows/Linux/whatever. Point is, a computer is more than just specs (and price), and when you buy a Mac, you're buying more than just specs.

[Uronacid]

I don't think anyone's arguing that a Mac is cheaper than a bargain-basement PC, or that Apple doesn't gouge you on (some) build-to-order options.

Plus Apple gouges on the upgrades for a Mac Mini because you kind of have to upgrade since you're stuck with what you got; the upgrades on, e.g., a Mac Pro are cheaper. I think the Mac Mini is a piece of crap anyway, and wouldn't argue that it's much of a "deal".

What is worth buying from Apple? To be honest, the mini mac is the only computer from Apple that I would be able to use with out feeling like I'm wasting my money on something that can accomplish so much more than email, pictures, internet, and movies. I don't need an over kill computer for what I would do with a mac..

[illriginal]

What more are you buying than just specs?... Mac has a well paid employment force. Linux devs don't. Mac is barely any better than Linux.

[Uronacid]

I don't think anyone's arguing that a Mac is cheaper than a bargain-basement PC, or that Apple doesn't gouge you on (some) build-to-order options.

I didn't use bargain basement prices I could have gone a lot cheaper with a 5400 RPM HDD... about half as much

Plus Apple gouges on the upgrades for a Mac Mini because you kind of have to upgrade since you're stuck with what you got; the upgrades on, e.g., a Mac Pro are cheaper. I think the Mac Mini is a piece of crap anyway, and wouldn't argue that it's much of a "deal". (Dell has some pretty ridiculous upgrade options though, too. Like, if you want Windows XP instead of Vista on a Dell desktop, you have to pay $150 more. That seems like kind of a rip-off.)

The WinXP "Upgrade" pricing has nothing to do with the manufacturer. -_-

* My point, again, goes back to the earlier post I made. Some people might be perfectly happy with Windows/Linux/whatever. Point is, a computer is more than just specs (and price), and when you buy a Mac, you're buying more than just specs.

There is only one computer form Apple I would even think about purchasing. The 999.99 white MacBook with base specs. That computer has reasonable specs for the cost + pretty OS, but the only reason is because other manufacturers just haven't jumped on board with the NVidia ION platform yet. Apple is the first manufacturer to utilize the ION platform and it nearly slashed prices in half when they used the GeForce 9400 in their lines. :/

[mipadi]

Mac is barely any better than Linux.

I think you hold a minority opinion in that regard.

I've been involved with the computer science departments at both Bucknell University (where I did undergrad) and The College of William & Mary (where I did some graduate work). W&M uses OpenSUSE Linux on Dells for their lab machines; until 2005, Bucknell used Solaris and SPARCs in their labs, but they migrated to Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Dells in '05. Historically, most professors at Bucknell have used either a SPARCstation or a Linux workstation as their office machines, and most profs at W&M have used Linux workstations. But in the past 3-5 years, most professors at both schools have migrated to using Macs. I only know of 2 profs at Bucknell who still use Solaris/SPARCs, and W&M only has a couple profs who don't use Macs. Bucknell also had a pretty good legion of student Linux users, but I know a bunch of students who bought Macs to replace their Linux machines, and now the Linux Users Group at Bucknell is practically dead, whereas the Mac Users Group has a pretty strong following.

And that trend isn't unique to the comp sci departments. Math and physics professors generally have a strong affinity for Linux, but at W&M, almost all the math profs use Macs now, and most of the math dept. at Bucknell uses Macs, too. And I personally know of one chemistry professor at Bucknell who was a diehard Linux user for over a decade, until he learned about Fink; he's switched over to the Mac, too.

Even looking at more national trends, a lot of high-profile Linux users/developers have switched to Macs in the last couple of years (search Google, many of them have written blog posts about it). A few Mac users (notably Cory Doctorow) have switched over to Linux, but the migration from Mac to Linux is barely a trickle.

Of course, popularity means jack-shit anyway. Just because something is popular doesn't make it good.



To be clear, I'm not trying to make an argument that you or anyone else should like Macs, because I don't care what you use. You can use whatever you want. But if you phrase it as an absolute like "Mac is barely any better than Linux", rather than "I personally prefer Linux to a Mac because...", then you should at least try to support your assertion. I understand that personal preference isn't something you're really obligated to justify, but that goes back to my whole point that the real issue here is preference, not a matter of specs, capability, or whatever.



On a more personal note, I'm inclined to believe that you're making that assertion because you somehow think it gives you "geek cred" to prefer Linux. Seriously, the wanking over Linux in this forum is insane, esp. since most of the Linux wankers here probably have little personal experience with Linux (i.e., less than a year or two). I mean, Linux is cool, but to be honest, it's not that awesome. And using obscure or "complicated" OSes doesn't make a person "cool". I mean, even a 9-year-old can install Ubuntu on his PC. It's not that hard.

[illriginal]

Other than multimedia software and a good window manager (mac gets my props on that), what exactly does Mac OSX for example have over Linux? I know that Mac and Linux are on two different platforms. But between specs / cost efficiency and productivity... I think Linux takes the win.

And I've been using Linux since 2001.

[firechild]

neither. as soon i as i get a laptop i'm upgrading it to debian or ubuntu

[mipadi]

Other than multimedia software and a good window manager (mac gets my props on that), what exactly does Mac OSX for example have over Linux? I know that Mac and Linux are on two different platforms. But between specs / cost efficiency and productivity... I think Linux takes the win.

What does Linux have over Mac OS X, aside from the fact that it's free and runs on cheaper hardware?

[illriginal]

What does Linux have over Mac OS X, aside from the fact that it's free and runs on cheaper hardware?

Cheaper in price.. not quality.

That's the thing... Mac OS X is practically the same as Linux. But there's smallest of things that make a difference.. For example, when it comes down to SQLite, SQLite sends a F_FULLFSYNC request to the kernel to ensures that the bytes are actually written through to the drive platter. This causes the kernel to flush all buffers to the drives and causes the drives to flush their track caches. So if anything, OS X should be slower.

Again, I'm not saying Mac or Linux is better than the other. In fact when people use the argument, "well I specifically use it for movie/3D animation, I advise them to go with a SGI Fuel System with IRIX

[mipadi]

That's the thing... Mac OS X is practically the same as Linux.

How so? Does Linux use Quartz as a window manager? Does it use Cocoa, and the full range of other libraries? Does software written for OS X look and behave like software written for Linux? No, no, and no. Seriously. Aside from superficial similarities in the POSIX layer, they're really nothing alike, and I'm inclined to believe you don't really have enough experience with OS X (or, perhaps, Linux) to really compare and contrast the too anyway, since you're arguing that they're "practically the same" -- unless you can somehow justify that claim.

But there's smallest of things that make a difference.. For example, when it comes down to SQLite, SQLite sends a F_FULLFSYNC request to the kernel to ensures that the bytes are actually written through to the drive platter. This causes the kernel to flush all buffers to the drives and causes the drives to flush their track caches. So if anything, OS X should be slower.

So when I'm evaluating whether I should use Linux or OS X as a desktop operating system, the fact that SQLite may be slower (a dubious claim, since I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've neither browsed the source of SQLite, nor done any benchmarking on your own, and are just relying on some message list emails that you've stumbled across on the Internet) is a compelling reason to choose Linux? Riiiiggght.

Again, I'm not saying Mac or Linux is better than the other. In fact when people use the argument, "well I specifically use it for movie/3D animation, I advise them to go with a SGI Fuel System with IRIX

Right. Let's have someone use a dying operating system that hasn't seen an update in over 6 years, on a platform that SGI is moving away from. SGI has already committed to a move away from IRIX (which is being retired) to Linux, and their new machines don't even use MIPS processors.

Seriously, I don't want to be mean here, but -- are you just doing the techno-geek equivalent of dropping names? Have you even used SQLite on Mac OS X, or any SGI machines, or even IRIX?

[illriginal]

How so? Does Linux use Quartz as a window manager? Does it use Cocoa, and the full range of other libraries? Does software written for OS X look and behave like software written for Linux? No, no, and no. Seriously. Aside from superficial similarities in the POSIX layer, they're really nothing alike, and I'm inclined to believe you don't really have enough experience with OS X (or, perhaps, Linux) to really compare and contrast the too anyway, since you're arguing that they're "practically the same" -- unless you can somehow justify that claim.

I'm sorry... you're not going to flip this around. My initial question for you was to provide evidence of how Mac is technically better than Linux. I don't see a difference between the two on a day to day basis other than the fact that Mac has a good window manager. What makes you such a Mac snob? What does Mac do for you that Linux can't?

So when I'm evaluating whether I should use Linux or OS X as a desktop operating system, the fact that SQLite may be slower (a dubious claim, since I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've neither browsed the source of SQLite, nor done any benchmarking on your own, and are just relying on some message list emails that you've stumbled across on the Internet) is a compelling reason to choose Linux? Riiiiggght.

That was a simple example of how the "smallest" of things can make a difference when you want to get technical.

Right. Let's have someone use a dying operating system that hasn't seen an update in over 6 years, on a platform that SGI is moving away from. SGI has already committed to a move away from IRIX (which is being retired) to Linux, and their new machines don't even use MIPS processors.

Hey it's better than Mac when it comes to movies/3D modeling etc..

And also.. if I were you, I'd make myself aware. lol it hasn't been updated in 6 years. Irix 6.5, look it up.

Oh and just so we're clear... it's still being used today. Especially by our very own government and the military. As well as science labs and forensic labs.

Seriously, I don't want to be mean here, but -- are you just doing the techno-geek equivalent of dropping names? Have you even used SQLite on Mac OS X, or any SGI machines, or even IRIX?

What does it matter if I've used SQLite on Mac OS X when it's been bench marked numerous of times. Numbers don't lie. As for SGI and IRIX, they have them at the University I went to, we got to screw around with it for 3 weeks.

So my question still stands, what exactly does Mac have over Linux? You've failed to answer my question. I'll be waitin


Oh and don't worry, I'm not even offended by your "mean" question lol.. You're not being mean, you're just being presumptuous.

[Uronacid]

I can't believe you called him a Mac snob... >.>

[Jghelfi]

I dont use my computer for gaming..
i just use it for productivity like for the internet, Programs, Music, and Movies...i really like the Macs though..i was making a laptop on Dell and it was a Studio 15 laptop that has a bluray player in it with beautiful sound and it has 2 HDMI ports for i can play on my TV...

__Bottom Line__
It came out to 899.99 w/out taxes + shipping,
and i put in a lot of stuff..it came out to be 1011.99 at the OG MSRP and dell was havin a sale so it came out to be 989.99
and imo i wouldve got the white Macbook that is 999.00 and it has all the programs i love on a mac...

but im only a incoming sophmore in High school and yea,yea..my dad is going like i will only get you that laptop if you go to college or trade-school..

it sucks...

[Maccabee]

Other than multimedia software and a good window manager (mac gets my props on that), what exactly does Mac OSX for example have over Linux? I know that Mac and Linux are on two different platforms. But between specs / cost efficiency and productivity... I think Linux takes the win.

And I've been using Linux since 2001.

Seriosuly? For the average person linux is awful! That is what they have yet to complete! Making a user friendly distro.

What happens when someone wants to add use a printer? No one but you wants to spend 3 hours getting a printer to work.

And if linux is almost just like mac os 1o then just be happy macs run linux?!

I repeat, mac basically is linux, but its user friendly and has the same software support that pc's have! And its secure so its the best of both worlds!

Also, for any mac owner, has your mac ever frozen? Or anything similar, like hwen it is under heavy stress does it hesitate to open a menu?

[illriginal]

Linux doesn't have problems with printers.. wtf are you talkin about jcp?

[Maccabee]

whatevs, but im just saying that mac has software support, linux doesnt.

[Just_Dream]

Also, for any mac owner, has your mac ever frozen? Or anything similar, like hwen it is under heavy stress does it hesitate to open a menu?

Yes it has. I just restarted and it was fine again. There have been times where my macbook was slower than normal. I'm not sure what caused it, but after I sent it in for AppleCare, it hasn't caused me a problem since so it's all good. For the record, I sent it in because there were cracks on the interior.

[rnicron]

MAC is too much money. And they still can't afford a 2 button mouse.

lol

um, yeah, the mouse that came with my mac has two buttons. god forbid that it just looks like one continuous button.

also, why is the whole fight about price?

[Jghelfi]

^well price is the key to satisfaction and sales...

and thats the thing that is stopping me from getting one...

[heyo-captain-jac...]

um, yeah, the mouse that came with my mac has two buttons. god forbid that it just looks like one continuous button.

also, why is the whole fight about price?

Quiet, I like my nine button mouse.

[illriginal]

um, yeah, the mouse that came with my mac has two buttons. god forbid that it just looks like one continuous button.

also, why is the whole fight about price?

I was just kiddin lol.


I'll be honest, I haven't seen a Mac (other than their laptops) in over 2 years. So honestly I dunno what sorts of mice come with their desktops.


It's not soo much of a fight. Rather that Mac is just a tad over priced but this is due to supply and demand of course. If people are willing to spend that much on any of my products, hell why bother to be fair, right? Gotta make that money, yo!


But ya... Mac machine, hardware wise, is just over priced. Part for part (performance) Mac is just silly with their outrageous prices.

[iExquisite]

Is a mac a laptop??
I don't know

[illriginal]

Is a mac a laptop??
I don't know

naw





Apple is the manufacturer. Mac is the OS

[rnicron]

actually mac (macintosh) is a line of computers, not an operating system.

[Maccabee]

I was just kiddin lol.
I'll be honest, I haven't seen a Mac (other than their laptops) in over 2 years. So honestly I dunno what sorts of mice come with their desktops.
It's not soo much of a fight. Rather that Mac is just a tad over priced but this is due to supply and demand of course. If people are willing to spend that much on any of my products, hell why bother to be fair, right? Gotta make that money, yo!
But ya... Mac machine, hardware wise, is just over priced. Part for part (performance) Mac is just silly with their outrageous prices.

Another thing that people like you don't take into consideration since you just want a power house, is how cool macs look! And and mac isnt annything It is a nickname for the company macintosh, and mac's are apple computers.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

Another thing that people like you don't take into consideration since you just want a power house, is how cool macs look! And and mac isnt annything It is a nickname for the company macintosh, and mac's are apple computers.

Nope, Mac is the official name now. It's been that way for several years now.



Also: Mac OSX is Apple's operating system. Mac is the line of computers.

[illriginal]

actually mac (macintosh) is a line of computers, not an operating system.

I stand corrected!

[jiyong]

I got my Macbook for free, so I can't say much about price.
But for me, personally, the way the Mac interface works is a better fit for me.
It really depends on what your personality is like.

[Jghelfi]

well i have a casual and productive lifestyle.. so i think its gonna work

it IS going to work! haha

[iExquisite]

naw
Apple is the manufacturer. Mac is the OS

so its a computer. like vista,XP