Independence Day, Are we living up to the ideals of 1776? Options

[ComradeRed]

This is a branch of the draft topic. IMHO, the answer is a clear 'no'. Let's look at the Declaration of Independence. There are 27 complaints against the King of England that are used to justify armed rebellion. Let's anaylze these and apply them to today:

[quote]He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.[/quote]

Clearly, the Federal government does many things that are blatantly against the Common Good, be it taxing us to sell weapons to Iran and Nicaragua, be it running a gigantic deficit, committing fraud with social security, etc.

[quote]He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.[/quote]

The Federal Government has repeatedly violated states rights and the ideas of federalism. Legally, issues like education, abortion, and drugs--which have all been taken by the federal government--ought to be the perogative of the States.

[quote]He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.[/quote]

We haven't done this yet.

[quote]He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.[/quote]

Every President calls emergency sessions of Congress, achieving this.

[quote]He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.[/quote]

Roosevelt tried to do this to the Supreme Court, and current presidents such as Bush have bullied Congress into passing things like the PATRIOT Act. The members of Congress were forbidden from even reading the PATRIOT Act by executive order before voting... something that is equivalent to dissolution.

[quote]He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.[/quote]

We haven't done this yet, partially for the reason stated above: It is now possible to bully legislatures without actually dissolving them.

[quote]He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.[/quote]

I have never read a better description of US Immigration Policy.

[quote]He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.[/quote]

www.constitution.org has a piece that I'm not going to post right now about how the executive branch constantly bullies Federal judges, some going as far as saying that they would not be alive the next day if they ruled on certain matters. Some Presidents, such as FDR, have been even more blatant, trying to pack the Supreme Court to force it to assent to blatnatly unconstitutional acts.

[quote]He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.[/quote]

The President does this.

[quote]He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.[/quote]

We have the world's biggest bureaucracy. Agencies like ATF, DEA, FDA, EPA, and lots and lots of others all take up nearly half of our money every year.

[quote]He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.[/quote]

The President has the power to deploy troops and declare martial law without Congressional support for up to 60 days.

[quote]He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.[/quote]

PATRIOT Act does just this.

[quote]He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:[/quote]

The United Nations is a perfect example of this.

[quote]For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:[/quote]

The world's second largest body of armed troops, in fact.

[quote]For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:[/quote]

Our military courts are among the most corrupt in the free world.

[quote]For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:[/quote]

Exactly what our tariffs do each and every day.

[quote]For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:[/quote]

Nobody asked me if I wanted a 1040 form. And taxes today are nearly FIFTEEN times higher than the taxes that sparked rebellion in 1776.

[quote]For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:[/quote]

The people in Guantanmo Bay are experiencing this right now.

[quote]For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:[/quote]

We are about to do this, though we haven't quite yet. It's called the International Criminal Court.

[quote]For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighboring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies.[/quote]

This one is England-specific, so no.

[quote]For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:[/quote]

Refer above to my statement on Federalism. The federal government has passed laws in things like education and drug control which all properly belong to states.

[quote]For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.[/quote]

Read above.

[quote]He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.[/quote]

It could be argued that when a government tries to take away its citizens' guns, it is declaring war on said citizenry... the United Nations actually has passed a resolution saying that non-nuclear arms control against sovereign bodies is equivalent to an act of war.

[quote]He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.[/quote]

Asset forfeiture destroys the lives of our people, pollution from EPA regulation ravages our coasts, and trade quotas plunder the seas.

[quote]He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.[/quote]

Nope... we have our own soliders to do that.

[quote]He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.[/quote]

The draft does this, and not just to those on the high seas... but to everyone.

[quote]He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.[/quote]

Nope. We killed all the Indians already.

Of 27 complaints against George III, The Federal Government is guilty of 22 of them. Not living up to our ideas, are we now?

[angel-roh]

damn thats so much... can i just ask wats this is all about before i read this.. i think ima gona get a headache...lols

[Spirited Away]

Are we living up to the ideals of 1776

1776 was a whole different era compared to 2004.

Hmm, what I mean is that old ideas may be good at that time, but they may not be as good when applied to our comtemporary social world.

The times have changed and just like people must change, governments--governed by people--must change as well.

So unfortunate that the courts have abandoned their usual defense of economic freedom and property rights all because of the tempation of collectivism or public welfare... but once more.. that's a different story.

[sheepy]

im not too sure wut u mean by living up to the ideals of 1776. but.. yes lots of things hav changed since den so yeh.. no

[EmeraldKnight]

We most certainly are not living up to the ideals

Uninspiredfae, I agree with you that times have changed.. but they've changed largely for the better.. as for our government...

[JlIaTMK]

thats really long but i read some of the first ones and actually if u look at it that way then yes i agree with u on this

[rnrn897]

what?! i don like this topic..
wuts it have to do with 4th of july?
whats ur point?!

[Spirited Away]

what?! i don like this topic..
wuts it have to do with 4th of july?
whats ur point?!

The point was quite clear if you would *READ* the post.

[onenonly101]

^lol

My pastor(i'm not bringing religion into this, but we have been doing a series called America at the Crossroads, it will be broadcasted in October as a primetime event. Christian or not i encourage all of America's citizen to watch it because it has some crucial stuff in it)
Was saying how now the Supreme Court is like that the Constitution isn't for this kind of world and that it is too outdated. Also that they might start looking at other countries and following what is happening over there. As i recalled we broke off from Great Britian BECAUSE of the differences we had with them so why would we look to them for guidence

[Spirited Away]

As i recalled we broke off from Great Britian BECAUSE of the differences we had with them so why would we look to them for guidence

The problems that bothered us the most about English laws were about religion and tax, or so I understood. Otherwise, their laws were okay.

But I do agree that some things in the Constitution are outdated, but that's why we make amendments.

[EmeraldKnight]

The problems that bothered us the most about English laws were about religion and tax, or so I understood. Otherwise, their laws were okay.

But I do agree that some things in the Constitution are outdated, but that's why we make amendments.

Yes.. but several of the changes are quite for the worse..

QUOTE 
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.



The draft does this, and not just to those on the high seas... but to everyone.

QUOTE 
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.



Asset forfeiture destroys the lives of our people, pollution from EPA regulation ravages our coasts, and trade quotas plunder the seas.

QUOTE 
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.



Clearly, the Federal government does many things that are blatantly against the Common Good, be it taxing us to sell weapons to Iran and Nicaragua, be it running a gigantic deficit, committing fraud with social security, etc.


QUOTE 
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.



The Federal Government has repeatedly violated states rights and the ideas of federalism. Legally, issues like education, abortion, and drugs--which have all been taken by the federal government--ought to be the perogative of the States.

QUOTE 
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.



Roosevelt tried to do this to the Supreme Court, and current presidents such as Bush have bullied Congress into passing things like the PATRIOT Act. The members of Congress were forbidden from even reading the PATRIOT Act by executive order before voting... something that is equivalent to dissolution.

QUOTE 
He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.



I have never read a better description of US Immigration Policy.


QUOTE 
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.



www.constitution.org has a piece that I'm not going to post right now about how the executive branch constantly bullies Federal judges, some going as far as saying that they would not be alive the next day if they ruled on certain matters. Some Presidents, such as FDR, have been even more blatant, trying to pack the Supreme Court to force it to assent to blatnatly unconstitutional acts.

QUOTE 
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.



The President has the power to deploy troops and declare martial law without Congressional support for up to 60 days.


QUOTE 
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.



PATRIOT Act does just this.

Is it just me or does it seem like the US is starting to move towards becoming a militaristic empire..

[redsoxbaby87]

oh but why should we have to? it is so different now, and everything has changed...

[EmeraldKnight]

oh but why should we have to? it is so different now, and everything has changed...

Did you read my post above? Change isnt always a good thing

[Spirited Away]

Yes.. but several of the changes are quite for the worse..

What I meant was aside from the problem of oppression (which is a big one), the English laws were quite admirable.

The early Americans also frequently criticized the much-despised local
representatives of the Crown.  But they protested at their peril, for the
English common law doctrine of "seditious libel" had been incorporated into
the law of the American colonies. That doctrine permitted prosecution for
"false, scandalous and malicious writing" that had "the intent to defame or
to bring into contempt or disrepute" a private party or the government.
Moreover, the law did not even accomodate the truth as a defense: in 15th
century England, where absolute obedience to the Crown was considered
essential to public safety, to call the king a fool or predict his demise
was a crime punishable by death.

SOURCE

I don't know what you mean by "changes"...

Is it just me or does it seem like the US is starting to move towards becoming a militaristic empire..

I still wouldn't call us an "empire". But I'm not surprised that we're a country dependent on military sucess. Being one of the most influencial, powerful, prosperous nation in the world, we must have the means to protect what's ours, which includes freedom. I guess there's a problem when military becomes too powerful, but it all comes down to how we decide to use that army.