Desecrating the Flag Options

[*Kathleen*]

Hrm...I don't think there's been a topic on this, but...what do you think? Do you think it's okay? Or should it be illegal? I personally think it should be illegal. I mean, I know that this country is about free speech and whatnot, but by desecrating our flag, it's saying you don't accept our laws and whatnot; therefore, shouldn't that be illegal? Hmm what do you guys think?

[*kryogenix*]

gotta love vague references

[ComradeRed]

Supreme Court already ruled that it is protected speech.

If I own something, I should be allowed to burn it... whatever it is.

[*Kathleen*]

Bleh well, do you think it should be?

[Justingamemaster]

gotta love vague references

hey i watched that damned video! it rocks!


anyway desecrating the flag is like desecrating a piece of paper. itts just an image of our country, nothing more, nothing less to me!

[princess2113]

i dunno, i mean its just material...if the persons intentions are to represent the country with the flag, then yes i think it shuld be illegal...but we dunt really know what they are thinking...they culd do it out of anger for sumething completly differant...and i thought it was illegal to do certain things with the flag?

[ComradeRed]

Bleh well, do you think it should be?

Yes... If I own something, I have the inalienable declaratory right to burn it.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

It depends. Are you burning it because you hate this country or has it been ripped? When a flag is worn out, ripped, or in just bad condition there's a ceremonial way to burn it, which is the way you're supposed to get rid of the flag. That way is perfectly fine. But if you hate this country so much that you want to burn the symbol of freedom why are you still here?

I think it's wrong, but since when has making something illegal stopped people from doing it?

[ComradeRed]

Because if you aren't free to dispose of your own property as you so choose, then you aren't very free and the symbol is meaningless, isn't it?

I'd rather people wrap themselves in the Constitution and burn the flag, than wrap themselves in the flag and burn the Constitution. Freedom > Symbolism.

[princess2113]

Yes... If I own something, I have the inalienable declaratory right to burn it.

if the flag gets wet, arent u SUPPOSED to burn it out of respect?

[JlIaTMK]

if i own it i can burn it.... whats up with this country.... u cant own anything.... u dont even own ur own house.... u have to pay bills for it....

[ComradeRed]

... I own the laptop I am typing on. I have the right to throw it out the window.

If you finish the payments on your house, you own your house. Not everyone pays "bills" on their house. The bills they do pay are for things like electricity and water, not the house itself, which they do, in fact, own.

[EmeraldKnight]

... I own the laptop I am typing on. I have the right to throw it out the window.

If you finish the payments on your house, you own your house. Not everyone pays "bills" on their house. The bills they do pay are for things like electricity and water, not the house itself, which they do, in fact, own.

But those are different.. the flag represents something.. and some people, though perhaps not you, view the flag as a representation of our country.. and by burning the flag, its as if you're burning the representation, our country..

[*Kathleen*]

Heh I don't think many of you know what "desecrating means". It means this:

To violate the sacredness of; profane.

Got it?

[EmeraldKnight]

Heh I don't think many of you know what "desecrating means". It means this:

QUOTE 
To violate the sacredness of; profane.


Got it? 

Oh.. haha I just followed everyone else

Oh well, I'm on your side anyways

[girlnpink_x]

i also think its wrong... but it is protected under the freedom of speech.. its like symbolic speech or w/e

[*Kathleen*]

Yes, but my point is...should you be able to use symbolic speech if you don't embrace it? These people that do it desecrate the flag simply because they don't like what it stands for. What it stands for is free speech itself...then are you still allowed to destroy it like that?

[EmeraldKnight]

Yes, but my point is...should you be able to use symbolic speech if you don't embrace it? These people that do it desecrate the flag simply because they don't like what it stands for. What it stands for is free speech itself...then are you still allowed to destroy it like that? 

Erm... I'm kinda lost.. free speech is onli part of what it stands for.. and well i do find it paradoxically ironic that the flag symbolizes freedom yet burning the flag would be exercising your right to freedom.. like Minda said, freedom to burn your own property.. wow this is a confusing topic

[*Kathleen*]

Yes, but...if you don't believe in free speech, how can you exercise it?

[girlnpink_x]

ooohhh good point.. hmm.. i dont know about that one =/

[EmeraldKnight]

Yes, but...if you don't believe in free speech, how can you exercise it?

That's why its a paradox.. because the flag stands for more than 1 thing.. and it varies from person to person

The people that desecrate the flag do so because they dont like the other things it stands for.. but yet doing so, they not onli exercise their right to free speech, but but the flag also stands for free speech.. gah.. its all so confusing.. thanks Kathleen.. I'll be trying to figure that one out for a while...

[*Kathleen*]

So you're saying that it depends on what you're burning the flag for? Either way, I don't think it's right. I love how patriotic some of you people are...

[EmeraldKnight]

So you're saying that it depends on what you're burning the flag for? Either way, I don't think it's right.

What it comes down to is what you believe in.. what's "right" or "wrong" is entirely based on perspective.. for every person, the flag may stand for something different, one person may have no problem descrating something they dont believe in at all while another person would find that extremely offensive..

Just a question, does it legally say anywhere exactly what the flag stands for? If yes, then my whole argument dies.. (this is what you get for arguing something without much factual knowledge..)

I love how patriotic some of you people are...

I'm not saying I believe its right, I always end up arguing for the side I dont believe in, oddly enough

[*Kathleen*]

What it comes down to is what you believe in.. what's "right" or "wrong" is entirely based on perspective.. for every person, the flag may stand for something different, one person may have no problem descrating something they dont believe in at all while another person would find that extremely offensive..

Meh, which is why I'm not going to get any supporters here in createblog. As I said, no one here seems too patriotic. I love the people that live in this country today.

Just a question, does it legally say anywhere exactly what the flag stands for? If yes, then my whole argument dies.. (this is what you get for arguing something without much factual knowledge..)

Oh umm...sure...check article five under section two. Haha.

[princess2113]

So you're saying that it depends on what you're burning the flag for? Either way, I don't think it's right. I love how patriotic some of you people are...

yeah thats what i was saying...what i learned in school..like 3rd grade...is if ur flag get swet (like rain) out or respect ur supposed to do certain things, n i think one is burn it

[*Kathleen*]

n i think one is burn it

Yes, but that's why I used the certain word, "desecrate" instead of "burn".

[EmeraldKnight]

Oh umm...sure...check article five under section two.  Haha.

You're not serious about that, are you?

yeah thats what i was saying...what i learned in school..like 3rd grade...is if ur flag get swet (like rain) out or respect ur supposed to do certain things, n i think one is burn it

Hm.. for some reason, i never learned anything about that kind of stuff..

[ComradeRed]

Yes, but my point is...should you be able to use symbolic speech if you don't embrace it? These people that do it desecrate the flag simply because they don't like what it stands for. What it stands for is free speech itself...then are you still allowed to destroy it like that?

The flag doesn't stand for free speech. It stands for courage, valor, and one other thing.

Kathleen, Section 2 of the Constitution only had four articles... Nice try, though.

It's better for people to burn the flag and wrap themselves in the Constitution, than vice versa. Patriotism is not loyalty to your country no matter what... I don't think anyone can fault Thomas Jefferson's patriotism, but remember that he purposely subverted the laws of the United States through teh Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions, as well as burned the Federalist Papers... But in the end, it was recognized that the laws were unjust to begin with.

Burning the flag is basically saying "I disagree with something the United States did." You can say "There shouldn't be free speech" -- and you would still be exersizing your right to free speech.

Free speech is free (even political advertisment speech that costs $2 million for a 30 second spot) no matter what you believe -- it's not JUST the freedom to agree with the authorities on every issue.

[Spirited Away]

I agree that it should be illegal, but that doesn't mean that it will stop people from doing it.

When you bring that out to court, flag desecrater vs government, the flag desecreter will have a higher chance of winning the case. Why? Our justice system will favor those who cries out with the first amendment... not really... I mean to say that most likely the Supreme Court will exercise their right to "Checks and Balances".

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." The First Amendment is the opening declaration of this nation's precious Bill of Rights and secures our grandest liberties: the freedom of speech, religion and the press; the right to assemble and to petition the government. Of these liberties, freedom of speech is the greatest testament to our nation's triumph as a democracy: we may not like what you say, but we will defend to death your right to say it. As Captain Jean-Luc Picard, of Star Trek, said: "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all, irrevocably."

Then again, I've heard that the Supreme Court itself wanted to propose an admenment to illegalize physical desecration of the flag, but it didn't get Senate's approval.

No, I don't know what I'm talking about.

This post has been edited by uninspiredfae: Jul 3 2004, 10:42 PM

[ComradeRed]

The Supreme Court can't pass bills, dude... It could only rule on Congress's bills

[Spirited Away]

The Supreme Court can't pass bills, dude... It could only rule on Congress's bills

That's what I probably meant!

EDIT>> I will fix my post now.. please re-read.. thanks

[kyuubi319]

i dont think so. i mean, its symbolic, it kinda stands for our country [duh]. so what kinda loyalty lies with a person that desecrates a flag? actually.. that just sorta proves what 'wonderful' people they are. they might as well say: hey, i left my war ravaged country to come to a place where im free to do anything i want and im not prosecuting for speaking my mind. but since im such a butt-muncher, i think i'll show some gratitude by burning our country's flag!
...

[redsoxbaby87]

well...it cant really be illegal. but i think that it is wrong...

[ryfitaDF]

i saw a scolded, burnt miniature flag in a beer bottle once. it was the most beautiful thing i've ever seen.

anyways, YEA! if i wanna burn a flag i should be able to! what's the point of living in in the land of the free if you don't take advantage of your freedom?

[redsoxbaby87]

i saw a scolded, burnt miniature flag in a beer bottle once. it was the most beautiful thing i've ever seen.

anyways, YEA! if i wanna burn a flag i should be able to! what's the point of living in in the land of the free if you don't take advantage of your freedom?

EXACTLY!

[Spirited Away]

i saw a scolded, burnt miniature flag in a beer bottle once. it was the most beautiful thing i've ever seen.

anyways, YEA! if i wanna burn a flag i should be able to! what's the point of living in in the land of the free if you don't take advantage of your freedom?

What was your intention when you burn a flag?

I mean, you enjoy freedom so much and that flag is supposed to represent such freedom, then why would you want to burn something that's symbolic of what you enjoy?

[ryfitaDF]

i honor ideas, not symbols. ideas are sacred, symbols are optional.

also, when people burn the flag they don't see it as burning freedom. they see it as burning the government: lies, money, curruprion, etc. that's what it symbolises to them (and i somtimes)

i've never actually burnt a flag. the only time i would burn a flag would be if it were in spite of some redneck bigot theying to tell me i'm a disgrace to the country cause i do or don't do somthing.

[Spirited Away]

i honor ideas, not symbols. ideas are sacred, symbols are optional.

Then this depends on point of view.

Some symbols are sacred. Symbols stand for ideas/ideals when it is believed as such.

also, when people burn the flag they don't see it as burning freedom. they see it as burning the government: lies, money, curruprion, etc. that's what it symbolises to them (and i somtimes)

If they want to burn the government, metaphorically speaking, that must mean that they see a problem with it... Why don't they try to change it instead of burning something, that's obviously worth nothing to them?

I mean, why is it such an honor to have others salute the flag of the winning country after someone won first place of a sport in the Olympics? Are they saluting the government of that country? I should hope not.

I've never actually burnt a flag. the only time i would burn a flag would be if it were in spite of some redneck bigot theying to tell me i'm a disgrace to the country cause i do or don't do somthing.

Instead of burning the flag, which proves nothing but my rebelliousness, I would just burn that person's house down..... JOKE JOKE... but I would do something to prove them wrong instead of further prove them right by burning something symbolic of the country.

[ryfitaDF]

If they want to burn the government, metaphorically speaking, that must mean that they see a problem with it... Why don't they try to change it instead of burning something, that's obviously worth nothing to them?

I mean, why is it such an honor to have others salute the flag of the winning country after someone won first place of a sport in the Olympics? Are they saluting the government of that country? I should hope not.

have you known anarchists to make any sense ever? i know if you wanna change the government you have a better chance inside of it. like in SLC punk.

Instead of burning the flag, which proves nothing but my rebelliousness, I would just burn that person's house down..... JOKE JOKE... but I would do something to prove them wrong instead of further prove them right by burning something symbolic of the country.

i try to do that. i've never been really as childish as to, say, burn a flag or cross or bible over a simple disagreement. i do talk things out. the only tiem i would set fire to somthing would be if i were acting out of rage. that only happens after a while, though. alot of flag burners just do it automaticly.

[Spirited Away]

have you known anarchists to make any sense ever? i know if you wanna change the government you have a better chance inside of it. like in SLC punk.

That's why they're not in favor with people. If they would try to make sense of the situation, instead of making it worse, then they'd be more popular.

i try to do that. i've never been really as childish as to, say, burn a flag or cross or bible over a simple disagreement. i do talk things out. the only tiem i would set fire to somthing would be if i were acting out of rage. that only happens after a while, though. alot of flag burners just do it automaticly.

That's good for you!

I see why people would burn the flag though, perhaps it doesn't stand for freedom any more in their eyes. However, they should still respect others who do revere the flag; it's common sense.

[ryfitaDF]

I see why people would burn the flag though, perhaps it doesn't stand for freedom any more in their eyes. However, they should still respect others who do revere the flag; it's common sense.

but it's also human nature to strike back. if somone feels disrespected they're going to show disrespect to that person. ya know?

[Spirited Away]

but it's also human nature to strike back. if somone feels disrespected they're going to show disrespect to that person. ya know?

Sure, but they should find ways to show their disrespect for the government, not disrespect the symbol of freedom that others believe in.

[iheartsimba]

although i don't know what "descrating" means
i think it probably means to damage or something.

And I think that if it's like big huge flagpoles out in the street it should be illegal...but like it its your flag...you know i think we should have that freedom there

[aud_chua]

silly supreme court.. i think that they should have made it illegal.. even treason maybe! but then.. yea.. with the first amendment, it's protected.. oh well...
i just think it's crazy cuz if a person said that this is the land of the free with the amendments and all, and they start burning the flag of the US, doesn't that mean that they don't like the laws made? then that means they don't want the freedom.. iono if this makes sense but something along those lines.. hahah..! i really am bad at writing out my thoughts..
well. that's my 2 cents.. or maybe just a penny... lolz..!