Freedom of Religion and Children's Health Options

[Comptine]

Reading this story made my stomach stick.

Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies
By ROBERT IMRIE – 5 hours ago

WESTON, Wis. (AP) — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday from diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said the family believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but she said they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked if an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

According to a CNN news report, the girl had been in visibly failing health for a month, with no medical attention whatsoever.

I fully support a person's freedom of religion but in this case, the parents' freedom of religion caused them to forsake their daughter's well being.

Do you think parents who base medical decisions on faith should be allowed to make drastic medical decisions for their children? Should criminal charges be charged against the Neumann's?

[illriginal]

Reading this story made my stomach stick.
According to a CNN news report, the girl had been in visibly failing health for a month, with no medical attention whatsoever.

I fully support a person's freedom of religion but in this case, the parents' freedom of religion caused them to forsake their daughter's well being.

Do you think parents who base medical decisions on faith should be allowed to make drastic medical decisions for their children? Should criminal charges be charged against the Neumann's?

God doesn't perform miracles the way people perceive them to be. That's why brain washed religious people look foolish now a days. Obviously this is a case of negligence and the parents deserve prison time.

I'm still wondering when people are gonna stop relying on God for everything and start relying on themselves. That's the point of free will in the first place

[BadCraziness]

I think that there should definitely be intervention from the government or whoever in the case of parents making drastic medical decisions regarding their children based on religion. The child's life is more important than her parents' religion.

I don't think criminal charges should be filed against them, because they honestly thought they were doing the right thing. If they had known their kid was going to die, they would have taken her to the doctor - they just had no idea it was that bad. There was no real malevolence in any action they took, and that's the important thing to remember.

Besides, it's not their fault that they're f**king stupid. They had the misfortune of being brought up in a religion that ignorantly insists on telling them "God will provide."

God doesn't perform miracles the way people perceive them to be.

God doesn't perform miracles period. It's a hard thing to do when you don't exist.

And believing in the existence of an omnipotent God who knows exactly what you're going to do before you do it because everything has been predecided pretty much signs off on any sense of free will that you might have.

[illriginal]

God doesn't perform miracles period. It's a hard thing to do when you don't exist.

And believing in the existence of an omnipotent God who knows exactly what you're going to do before you do it because everything has been predecided pretty much signs off on any sense of free will that you might have.

Where's your proof? The irony of this is... no one knows if God exists or not. God exists by faith and historical events, which holds true in my heart and mind as well as scientific data.

And I'm sick of reading moronic views of how if God knows every single move anyone would ever make means they have no free will. That's just silly. You're tryin to use human philosophy created by satanists to down play the existence of God.

Fact of the matter is... there can be a God that's the all knowing while his creation of humans have free will.

God knows the infinite possibilities of every single possible move you could ever make at any given time... God knows you're going to hell and heaven. But in the sake of free will, it is YOU who controls YOUR destiny. Not God. God doesn't control you, nor anything around you. Everything of everything has free will but it is all known. God is infinite of infinite.

Your human mind can't fathom what infinite is much less infinite of infinite... not even I, not Jesus, nor any Prophet, NO ONE could.

So please, go study something more than human philosophy before makin elementary assumptions.
LOL @ everything being predecided.

[BadCraziness]

Where's your proof? The irony of this is... no one knows if God exists or not. God exists by faith and historical events, which holds true in my heart and mind as well as scientific data.

Have you ever read the parable of the invisible gardener?
God exists only by faith. There is no sceince.

And actually I got that little omniscience detail from The Bible and sunday school when I was a kid. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

Fact of the matter is... there can be a God that's the all knowing while his creation of humans have free will.

God knows the infinite possibilities of every single possible move you could ever make at any given time... God knows you're going to hell and heaven. But in the sake of free will, it is YOU who controls YOUR destiny. Not God. God doesn't control you, nor anything around you. Everything of everything has free will but it is all known. God is infinite of infinite.

Still doesn't sound right to me. If life is supposed to be this big test to see if we can make it into Heaven, what's the point of it if God already knows where we're going? It sounds completely malevolent that he would allow a child to be born who he knows is destined for eternal suffering anyway. Also, what about all the people in countries like where any type of theism has not been introduced? You say Islam is the only truth, but so many people go their whole lives without ever being introduced to it. Is God going to send those people to Hell too? Why would people without the opportunity to take his little heaven test even exist?

[illriginal]

Have you ever read the parable of the invisible gardener?
God exists only by faith. There is no sceince.
Still doesn't sound right to me. If life is supposed to be this big test to see if we can make it into Heaven, what's the point of it if God already knows where we're going? It sounds completely malevolent that he would allow a child to be born who he knows is destined for eternal suffering anyway. Also, what about all the people in countries like where any type of theism has not been introduced? You say Islam is the only truth, but so many people go their whole lives without ever being introduced to it. Is God going to send those people to Hell too? Why would people without the opportunity to take his little heaven test even exist?

How will the child automatically be destined for suffering when there's the second root/path that the child can take. Like I said, God knows that everyone is going to hell and (not or) heaven. It's us... who determine our judgement. We determine our judgement everyday, when we do something wrong we're supposed to feel guilt. If we don't... well hopefully you have an epiphany and recognize your wrong doings.

Also for people who never heard of religion, never embraced God, nor had the chance in the first place. Well you gotta keep in mind, God is the all merciful and understanding. A human being doesn't need religion in order to go to heaven. They need to follow the universal moral laws of God. The ten commandments are partial to the laws.

On top of that because God is the all merciful, ones who go to hell, only do their time for what they've done wrong. Hell isn't permanent like Christians and other religions a like make it out to be.

And like I said, you don't need religion... you don't need to go to Church, Mosque, Temple etc.. to get to know God and be one with God. Those holy buildings are only meant to be schools, while the religion itself is supposed to be the lessons we learn.

[Simba]

Way to flip topic, guys.

[*paperplane*]

Yeah...skipping that for now.

I don't believe that should even fall under freedom of religion, because it wasn't a matter of their beliefs; they didn't even have anything against doctors. Their actions (or lack thereof) bordered on abuse. That's not acceptable from any other religion. There was a story here about a man whose religious traditions led him to circumcise his daughter, and while technically he had freedom of religion, it interfered with a child's well-being, and he definitely ended up in jail. I'd think it also crosses into the territory of neglect, which is also not acceptable, and irrelevant to religion. But really, to believe prayer would lead God to actively heal their child? That's delusional.

[karmakiller]

Well, maybe they should've stopped and thought that God gave them doctors to help their daughter. They're deffinately going to be in some trouble. Maybe they should've used prayer as a way to hope for her to be okay while the doctors helped her. Most religious people pray that someone makes it through surgery okay, they don't pray as a way to substitute the surgery.

In my honest opinion, they shouldn't be allowed to used the excuse of religion to cover up the way they neglected their child.

[Comptine]

But there have been cases that parents allowed to decide their childrens' health decisions based on religion and they did not face any repercussions. There have been cases where parents stopped their kids' cancer treatment and placed their lives with God, despite the fact that the treatment either had a high rate of prolonging their life for years or going into remission.

[Rhianann]

I'm still wondering when people are gonna stop relying on God for everything and start relying on themselves. That's the point of free will in the first place

It's good to see some people in this world still have common sense. I'm not any paricular faith; how I feel about things would fall under Deism more than anything else. How does that saying go? God helps those who help themselves.

It's hard to say where the government should draw the line with religious beliefs. They can throw those parents in prison but I seriously doubt it will change the way they feel about their beliefs. If anything it will make them feel "persecuted". And there's far too much of that talk already. They can send them to an institution and counsel them, but again that would fall under the category of the government interfering with religious beliefs.

[*paperplane*]

But there have been cases that parents allowed to decide their childrens' health decisions based on religion and they did not face any repercussions. There have been cases where parents stopped their kids' cancer treatment and placed their lives with God, despite the fact that the treatment either had a high rate of prolonging their life for years or going into remission.

That's still bullshit, but this might differ slightly from those precedents because they didn't even try to get a diagnosis or treatment.

[illriginal]

There have been cases where parents stopped their kids' cancer treatment and placed their lives with God, despite the fact that the treatment either had a high rate of prolonging their life for years or going into remission.

Oh that's simply because cancer is nearly the most expensive disease. So I'm assume families that would do such a thing would only do it because of financial issues. Hoping that God would understand their financial issues, God would cause a miracle and save their child.

If that was the case with me, I'd just put all the payments on credit card and never pay the credit card. Health care should be free as well as medical attention.

[Comptine]

Well, I never really heard of financial issues as the main problem, but it probably does weigh heavily on the decisions.

Mostly, I hear parents taking their kids out of treatment because the treatment was to cruel and they rather let God heal their kids.

Chemo and other cancer treatments are painful and draining, which is why most kids with extremely severe cancer or at terminal stage, choose to only use pain killers rather than life prolonging treatments. However, that's the children choosing. And, it doesn't make sense to pull the kids out if there is still hope.