Ask An Atheist Anything., Actually, don't. Keep it relevant. Aliteration is cool. Options

[NoSex]

Alright, this is sort of in response to Podo's (monster's) "feeble attempt" thread.
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the existence of any god whatsoever. Any questions?

[StandardEdition]

Alright, this is sort of in response to Podo's (monster's) "feeble attempt" thread.
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the existence of any god whatsoever. Any questions?

Ok I get that you don't beleive in God, but is there anything ese that you choose to beleive in? [not nessecarily god related.]

[NoSex]

Ok I get that you don't beleive in God, but is there anything ese that you choose to beleive in? [not nessecarily god related.]

It's not uncommon - as an atheist - to receive comments like this. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked me, "So you believe in nothing?!" I wouldn't be a millionaire or anything, but I would have a ton of f**king nickels. At the most basic foundation, this question really holds very little relevance. I'm tempted to argue its transparency - the insecurity and fear inherent in most believers. However, I'll just try to answer it instead.

I believe in a shit load of things, but, to keep this broad and short: Science, rationalism, empiricism, philosophy, critical thinking, Gregory House M.D., art, skepticism, life, myself, some of my friends, film, etc. etc.

Although some of these things may appear contrary - these are all things I hold either an honest dispassionate interest in or some sort of vested interest in. They are aspects of my life that I must, in all convenience and reason, engage in to a certain extent. Essentially, they're my life. I believe in tons of things - just like most people do. I just don't believe in mysticism and spirituality.

[monster]

Atheists, why is it that you blame us for countless murders and the slaughter of innocent people when, if you look at Atheist regimes, ( AKA Communist regimes; i.e Mao Tse Tung, Kim Jung Il, Stalin, Lenin, Fidel Castro, etc,. etc. ) and you find that for each dictator, the killing and the body count starts in the millions for each dictator within a near few years?

[NoSex]

Atheists, why is it that you blame us for countless murders and the slaughter of innocent people when, if you look at Atheist regimes, ( AKA Communist regimes; i.e Mao Tse Tung, Kim Jung Il, Stalin, Lenin, Fidel Castro, etc,. etc. ) and you find that for each dictator, the killing and the body count starts in the millions for each dictator within a near few years?

Well, in either case, I think it's a generalization to suppose that anyone is suggesting that merely religiosity or irreligiosity are singularly to blame for any one crime or social illness. Society isn't that complex, but it's also not that simple. Sure, religion, I do believe, does hold a certain amount of responsibility for the crimes of the world (the crusades, the inquisition, witch burnings, etc. etc.) - however, I don't subscribe such tragedy to just theism itself (much as most atheists do not). In the cases of atheistic regimes (often Communist in nature) committing mass genocide it's often in the justification of nationalism or a similar dogma - this is something I am chiefly against: dogmatism (much as most atheists are).

The reason I believe that religion has been used as a tool for destruction and "evil" is seated in dogmatism. I am, most immediately, against dogmatic thinking - whether that thinking be religious in nature or not. Dogmatism does not favor critical thinking, questioning, skepticism, or pliability. These are bad things and they often lead to social illness which can later develop into awful "crimes against man." We don't find such crimes hidden behind rationalism, skepticism, science, and reason - the climate is not conductive to such. However, in the case of dogmatism, an individual is reduced to a sheep like follower. Intellectualism, rationality, and free thought are discouraged in favor of obedience - this often occurs in nationalistic countries. This sort of climate allows for such crimes to be committed more easily and without opposition.

The reason religion is so often attacked on this front is due to the fact that religion is one of the most popular, common, and recognized transports of dogmatism. Often its followers and proponents are not encouraged to think or challenge a position. Often its believers are motivated by "divine" rights and wills communicated through revelations which hold irrefutable authority and power (it's hard to convince someone that accepts heaven and a moral divine code of anything contrary to such a position). In the case of nationalism, the divine right is in the superiority of one's country or king. In the case of religiosity, the divine right comes from heaven. In either case, these foundations are difficult to rationally argue against and thus result in fanaticism.

The less falsifiable the belief the more difficult it is to combat (the more susceptible it is to fanatical ends) - because of this, I believe that religiosity is dangerous to society and to the individuals that follow it just as nationalism would be dangerous. What is of real danger, fundamentally, is dogmatic and irrational belief - and atheists feel that religion is full of it.

And, then, of course, I would also point to that reality that man is a vicious creature - religious or not, he is often interested in the imposition of power. This imposition of power can manifest in violent and harmful ways. An atheist can kill just as well as a theist can, and parties which do not believe have killed just as well as parties which do. However, dogmatism is to blame, largely, for some of the more heinous of these crimes. And, dogmatism, is easily found within theism, where I do not believe it is an inherent quality of atheism.

(Oh, just to add: Atheists are less likely to be involved in violent crime, let alone any crime. [1])

[RyanWasHere]

Damn those violent catholics.

[kryogenix]

What flavor of atheism are you eating?

[pandamonium]

oo nice. im starting to like debate again.

What is your theory of how we are what we are? How did we get here? Like equivalent to God putting us here.

[NoSex]

What flavor of atheism are you eating?

Explicit weak.

I don't deductively posit the non-existence of any god (but a few specifics). I merely lack a belief in any spiritual entity that resembles a god - mainly due to a lack of evidence and the incoherence and inconsistency of most god models. My position is that atheism is the most reasonable, probable, and consistent of "world views".

What is your theory of how we are what we are? How did we get here? Like equivalent to God putting us here.

I don't know. I don't have the resources to confidently decide on any absolute or conclusive (all-encompassing) answer. These cosmological issues are heavily philosophical and often outside of our current grasp and scope. Although, given the contents of the universe, the observed phenomenon within, and our current science, I do believe that all has followed from purely materialistic and naturalistic mechanisms.

I do believe in the reality of a sort of Big Bang (in order to explain the observed hyper-expansion of the universe). I do believe in abiogenesis (as the most rationalistic position towards the emergence of life). And, I am a very firm believer in descent with modification - I wholly subscribe to the modern evolutionary synthesis (the theory of evolution).

[monster]

Hopefully both yours and my thread will give some insight to some people. Best of luck. I'm gonna' try to get that rebuttal on my thread sooner or later.

[*jeanna*]

what do you think about warren jeffs followers

[S-Majere]

So belief in no God would mean you're unconstrained by the insecurities of not knowing whether or not you're going to heaven or hell and that your actions after death for good or evil will go unpunished by a Higher Being - because an afterlife cannot exist in Atheism, right?

So what happens when you die? What is the purpose of a life without divinity?

Note: I'm agnostic.

[NoSex]

what do you think about warren jeffs followers

Mormonism, in general, is something I'm rather disgusted with on a very basic level. However, these forms of fundamentalist and fanatical Mormonism manage to transcend this disgust - rising to a whole new level of contempt. Mormonism is immensely dogmatic, increasingly cult-like, and hardwired to intimidate, belittle, and cripple its followers (often from a young age). In the case of Warren Jeff, all of these things were actualized to an even more apparent level. Although I don't care how many wives you have (I don't care about your sexual ethics - not to say I don't practice a pragmatic breed of my own), the FLDS Mormon's conception of polygamy is designed to subjugate - this I do care about. Base line and sinker - followers of such movements tend to fall into two categories: the weak and insecure, and the brainwashed and pressured. Really, I don't find their fellowship much different than any other religious fellowship aside from gradation and severity. But, in either case, it's all f**ked up.

So belief in no God would mean you're unconstrained by the insecurities of not knowing whether or not you're going to heaven or hell and that your actions after death for good or evil will go unpunished by a Higher Being - because an afterlife cannot exist in Atheism, right?

So what happens when you die? What is the purpose of a life without divinity?

Note: I'm agnostic.

Well, first off, the idea of an afterlife is not entirely mutually exclusive to atheism. Atheism only posits, in its most broad manifestation, a lack of belief. Atheism is not a system of beliefs or a religion much like theism is not. Atheism merely communicates one's non-belief in any sort of god. So, an atheist might happen to believe in ghosts. He might believe in aliens. He might be into taro cards and the Jersey Devil. He might believe in the afterlife. Granted, this is highly unlikely, for, if the atheist is honest and dispassionate in his disbelief, he would, in the same vain, have no courtesy or dispensation for those other innumerable superstitions. In my own personal case, I'm proud to be entirely superstition free - I don't believe in any of that shit. However, it isn't impossible for an atheist to transgress in such a manner (I've met plenty of silly, down right moronic, atheists in my life).

Alright, now, to more directly address these questions:

You die. I don't believe in any sort of afterlife due to several things. Firstly, the lack of any observed phenomena which would suggest such a reality beyond our lives. Secondly, the contrary observations we make everyday which seem to suggest our consciousness is a meaningless byproduct of our material brains and that dissipation and denigration of body is equitable to dissipation and denigration of mind. And, lastly, the obvious psychological fairy tale motivations behind the invention of such an idea - it's very human.

Life is purposeless and meaningless. But we live it anyways. And, billions and billions of people find billions and billions of different excuses (although most of those excuses tend to be very similar or arguably the same). People find comfort and solace in an explicitly detailed meaning or purpose - but that doesn't make one a reality. Largely, I think that people invent purpose and meaning and or look for it (as in the case of religion) in order to sooth their insecurities and weaknesses. The realization of an objectively meaningless world is a troubling reality for the weak and frightened. To an average human being this realization will be battled passionately and without restraint - they will deny the meaningless world in order to protect their world views and maintain a status quo of effortless comfort and familiarity. For many atheists this meaningless world is found bathed in a sort of perverse beauty - an awe and "magic" which denies purpose and extends into infinity. In my own personal case, I've never had a serious existential crisis (at least not to the point of distress). I've once held my existentialistic beliefs concerning the individualistic search for meaning. I've once believed man has within him the power to bring forth meaning and purpose. I've once prescribed to Sartre dictum - "existence precedes and rules essence." And, really, I would still prescribe to such ideas if it were not for my extended philosophical studies - I've become a determinist. But, in either case, life is a blast - without it you'd be dead.

Note: Me too.

[*jeanna*]

how do you react when someone tries to convert you when you inform them you are atheist? do you just reply with, i'm atheist?

what do you think about gay and straight marriage?

[S-Majere]

Fantastic answer NoSex.

[NoSex]

how do you react when someone tries to convert you when you inform them you are atheist? do you just reply with, i'm atheist?

I love it, love it, when people try to convert me. It's always worth an interesting conversation, some good social experimentation, and some good laughs. Also, from time to time, I can learn a little more about myself, a little more about the human race, and maybe a little about another individual. I tend to make my case, listen to theirs, form rebuttals, etc. etc. I almost conduct it as if it were a formal debate - not always, but rather commonly. I'm almost always polite, well behaved, and as respectful as one can be towards someone who thinks some dude walked on water two-thousand years ago. From time to time I like to have a bit of terrorist fun, but that's only in extenuating and special circumstance. Generally, I just talk with them. Hell, I can't tell you how many people I've de-converted myself - probably a hell of a lot more than most Christians.

In my younger years I use to frequent churches and church functions in order to excite these sorts of confrontations. It's often a very worthwhile experience.

what do you think about gay and straight marriage?

I'm sour on marriage in America because of the unrealistic expectations our society holds in concern of romanticism. However, there are very real financial and pragmatic benefits to marriage - these are benefits that I believe any tax paying citizen is due. I don't care if a guy wants to bone another guy - that's fine with me. And, given that they are both tax paying citizens, I think that it is their right to be given fair and equal treatment under the law. This means that I am a full supporter of same sex marriage. Go gay people! Go!

Fantastic answer NoSex.

Thank you. The rarity of life enforces its power, beauty, and value. What is this all but a demented waiting room in Christian theology? We have one life to live and I'm pretty determined to take it by the throat, spit in its face, and force intense and unforgiving amounts of pain upon it until it admits I'm its daddy. Life is a mother f**ker, and, ain't it sweet?

Here is something I wrote here on cB maybe a year or more ago, back when I was a bit more naive and a lot less cynical:

"In a way I'm a demi-existentialist when it comes to this question. There is no substantiation for an objective purpose in any life, let alone human life. There is no reason to believe that a sentient force had dictated to each and every one of us, or all of us as a whole, a meaningful direction in life. As far as I am concerned, the universe does not even suspect our existence. We are a meaningless and insignificant blip in the whole history of the cosmos. The thousands and thousands of years that men have walked the earth is just a blink of the eye.

But I find boundless beauty in this conception. The idea that our lives are our own to create. We are responsible for the direction and purpose in our lives. To make uncomfortable and scary our passage, by taking further and further control. The essence of our existence precedes us. Instead of that cold, empty, and arrogant desperation in the ideal of an objective purpose, we have freedom, pliability, humility, and wealth of fullness. There is no end to the road that we must all converge on to be successful or to bring meaning to our lives. In fact, there is no road. There is just a vast and open field. There is a field in infinite length - as infinite as human desire, will, imagination, and freedom. There is a beautiful field. f**k roads."

Sounds nice.

[MissFits]

I love it, love it, when people try to convert me.

I am also an atheist. Most of the time I really don't like when people try to convert me.
I guess it's because the people that try are generally not very educated about Christianity, or anything else for that matter.
Because of that I can't have an educated debate with most people in my town because almost every intelligent person I know is an atheist.

So, I guess there are two ways to look at everything.

[NoSex]

I am also an atheist. Most of the time I really don't like when people try to convert me.
I guess it's because the people that try are generally not very educated about Christianity, or anything else for that matter.
Because of that I can't have an educated debate with most people in my town because almost every intelligent person I know is an atheist.

So, I guess there are two ways to look at everything.

I'm generally in the same exact boat. Although, I think the uneducated are amusing and interesting (in several different ways and from several different angles). In either case, the organization of my own ideas, and the social experience still make the exchange worthwhile - even if the other party acts like a third grader (which is far too often the case). Though, I must admit, these sort of encounters can easily lose their charm and novelty.

I definitely sympathize.

[Prophet]

You don't believe in god who made the Earth who made astronomy. When you die where will you go ?

[NoSex]

You don't believe in god who made the Earth who made astronomy. When you die where will you go ?

Sir, that is a loaded question. Further, if you do not have the intention of actually reading the thread maybe you should reconsider your involvement in it. Anyways:

You die. I don't believe in any sort of afterlife due to several things. Firstly, the lack of any observed phenomena which would suggest such a reality beyond our lives. Secondly, the contrary observations we make everyday which seem to suggest our consciousness is a meaningless byproduct of our material brains and that dissipation and denigration of body is equitable to dissipation and denigration of mind. And, lastly, the obvious psychological fairy tale motivations behind the invention of such an idea - it's very human.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Is this your way of promoting atheism? And when you say that uneducated people such as most of us are "amusing" do you mean that you're like fux pro wtf omfg these fuxing noobs need to gtfo?

[NoSex]

Is this your way of promoting atheism?

No.

And when you say that uneducated people such as most of us are "amusing" do you mean that you're like fux pro wtf omfg these fuxing noobs need to gtfo?

Yes.

[ParanoidAndroid]

omfg pwnt

[Spirited Away]

Just to comment. You guys--the one who dared to make the original thread and the one one who made a witty response thread--are great. Entertainment is good for the soul.

[MissFits]

I'm generally in the same exact boat. Although, I think the uneducated are amusing and interesting (in several different ways and from several different angles). In either case, the organization of my own ideas, and the social experience still make the exchange worthwhile - even if the other party acts like a third grader (which is far too often the case). Though, I must admit, these sort of encounters can easily lose their charm and novelty.

I definitely sympathize.

I guess people here are usually Christian hicks. They believe anything because they are told to, and they haven never looked into what the bible actually says.
Also, the Christians here are the people selling drugs, raping girls, murdering, and robbing. I just don't see the point in believing if you don't follow the rules of your own faith.

I know I am going going to get a response from someone that says "everyone sins" but in my opinion part of being a Christian is to make an effort to not sin and to be the best person you can be.

If you are Christian I really think you should leave the judging and converting up to God, because it's his job anyway!

[*Steven*]

It's not uncommon - as an atheist - to receive comments like this. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked me, "So you believe in nothing?!" I wouldn't be a millionaire or anything, but I would have a ton of f**king nickels.

And about $9071.85.


What do you think about Deism?

[Sandraaa]

Offtopic ALERTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!

What the hell is the difference between a nickle, dime, quater (or however it's spelt)? I'm too lazy to google.

[kryogenix]

Explicit weak.

I don't deductively posit the non-existence of any god (but a few specifics). I merely lack a belief in any spiritual entity that resembles a god - mainly due to a lack of evidence and the incoherence and inconsistency of most god models. My position is that atheism is the most reasonable, probable, and consistent of "world views".

What do you think of Aquinas' arguments for the existence of a god from an ontological approach?

[Kontroll]

It's not uncommon - as an atheist - to receive comments like this. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked me, "So you believe in nothing?!" I wouldn't be a millionaire or anything, but I would have a ton of f**king nickels. At the most basic foundation, this question really holds very little relevance. I'm tempted to argue its transparency - the insecurity and fear inherent in most believers. However, I'll just try to answer it instead.

I believe in a shit load of things, but, to keep this broad and short: Science, rationalism, empiricism, philosophy, critical thinking, Gregory House M.D., art, skepticism, life, myself, some of my friends, film, etc. etc.

Although some of these things may appear contrary - these are all things I hold either an honest dispassionate interest in or some sort of vested interest in. They are aspects of my life that I must, in all convenience and reason, engage in to a certain extent. Essentially, they're my life. I believe in tons of things - just like most people do. I just don't believe in mysticism and spirituality.

So, you believe in the existing? You, life, art, and such? I wouldn't go as far as to believe in those. I mean, yes, they are real, so I believe they are there. But what are you actually believing in them? I really don't understand. Please, tell me.

[1angel3]

How do you deal with the hatred for being a atheist?

[*jeanna*]

How do you deal with the hatred for being a atheist?

do people really hate atheists though? they always say, "oh i feel sorrrryyyy for them. i will pray for you."

idk many who would say they would hate since it's all about "love"

[1angel3]

do people really hate atheists though? they always say, "oh i feel sorrrryyyy for them. i will pray for you."

idk many who would say they would hate since it's all about "love"

I don't know but people do mistreat atheist because they don't believe in a God. They think they're devil worshipers and hate God. But they don't believe in God so how can they hat what they don't believe exist?

[Kontroll]

As having experienced both worlds. It's really no difference. Atheists have a faith that there is no god. They'll say it's not faith. In fact, it is faith because they can't prove there isn't a god.

Same goes with Christians and those of all faiths. They have equal faith there is a god. And also have no evidence there is a god.

Judgement weighs in about the same for Atheists and Christians. All those I have met, of both faiths tend to pass judgement on those of opposite and even those within their faith.

I don't know but people do mistreat atheist because they don't believe in a God. They think they're devil worshipers and hate God. But they don't believe in God so how can they hat what they don't believe exist?

And you should hear what atheists say. It's a two way street pal.

If that is the case, then the person is his faith, but a product of his up bringing and other factors affecting mannerisms and personality. As does faith, but you can't say a person is a certain way due to his faith. Where is the rest of the pie chart going to if that is the case?

I wouldn't feel sorry for any one. Christian or atheist. They have choses a specific route to follow and if he happens to change himself, let it be.

That's the great thing about life. Second chances.

[livwho]

Offtopic ALERTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!

What the hell is the difference between a nickle, dime, quater (or however it's spelt)? I'm too lazy to google.

A nickel is five cents, a dime is ten, and a quarter is worth twenty-five. Each cent is worth one penny equal to one-hundreth of a dollar. You do the other conversions.

I'm VERY Christian, but I do understand where an aetheist is coming from. It's hard to believe in something you've never seen or experienced. I've had my doubts.

[1angel3]

As having experienced both worlds. It's really no difference. Atheists have a faith that there is no god. They'll say it's not faith. In fact, it is faith because they can't prove there isn't a god.

Same goes with Christians and those of all faiths. They have equal faith there is a god. And also have no evidence there is a god.

Judgement weighs in about the same for Atheists and Christians. All those I have met, of both faiths tend to pass judgement on those of opposite and even those within their faith.
And you should hear what atheists say. It's a two way street pal.

If that is the case, then the person is his faith, but a product of his up bringing and other factors affecting mannerisms and personality. As does faith, but you can't say a person is a certain way due to his faith. Where is the rest of the pie chart going to if that is the case?

I wouldn't feel sorry for any one. Christian or atheist. They have choses a specific route to follow and if he happens to change himself, let it be.

That's the great thing about life. Second chances.

I agree. I heard a atheist say they have a lot of hatred towards them for their beliefs.

[ersatz]

It really depends on the people surrounding you. If you live in a city, for example, it's not likely you will deal with people that hate you for being an atheist because it's a lot more common in a city. If you live where Nate and I live, in a small town in Indiana, it's more likely that people will dislike you and avoid even speaking to you unless it's insulting you solely for your atheist beliefs. The more people, the more indifference toward difference. Small towns are a breeding ground for sheepism.

[demolished]

Alright, this is sort of in response to Podo's (monster's) "feeble attempt" thread.
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the existence of any god whatsoever. Any questions?

How should you ... and we live our lives?

i'm somewhat tired of relying powerful being to help me ... and always praying.
are you successful?

[MissFits]

It really depends on the people surrounding you. If you live in a city, for example, it's not likely you will deal with people that hate you for being an atheist because it's a lot more common in a city. If you live where Nate and I live, in a small town in Indiana, it's more likely that people will dislike you and avoid even speaking to you unless it's insulting you solely for your atheist beliefs. The more people, the more indifference toward difference. Small towns are a breeding ground for sheepism.

I know where you are coming from, I live in a small town in Ohio and I know I get treated differently sometimes for being an atheist. Even in my own family.

How should you ... and we live our lives?

i'm somewhat tired of relying powerful being to help me ... and always praying.
are you successful?

I know this wasn't directed towards me but I feel that I can help you.
I am very successful. You don't need to pray or believe in God for great things to happen to you. Rather than putting all your faith in someone you don't know is there put all your faith in yourself. If you are smart enough to question the things around you, you are smart enough to do almost anything you really put your mind to.

Live your life like you did before treat people kindly, do what your parents tell you to do, get good grades in school, work hard. Be a good person, being an atheist is no excuse whatsoever to be an a-hole.

[demolished]

aw. thank you. i'm a loser. i HATED myself for not relying on myself.

ughhhh.

thank you.

[NoSex]

What do you think about Deism?

Deism bores me - it's also sort of a dead movement. On one instance, I can't imagine how people, today, make the transition from theist to deist without, instead, stepping a few more feet into the realm of atheism. Deism is, supposedly, a scientific decision - it removes the more supernatural and unbelievable aspects of traditional theism. However, though impersonal and often apathetic - the god of deism is still a god. Given the scientific atmosphere of today I fail to really see the appeal of deism but for a comfortable transition between theism and atheism. I made a similar transition myself. Before denouncing god altogether, I imagined that he might just not be like anything described in the Bible. But, I still had no basis for such a belief - though I had removed the more outlandish and immediately fairy-tale-esq aspects of religious belief, I still believed in something for which there was no evidence. At that point my deism had blurred into atheism, eventually disappearing altogether.

What do you think of Aquinas' arguments for the existence of a god from an ontological approach?

Thomas Aquinas' "Five Ways," though proposed nearly eight centuries ago, remain, to this day, to be the most popular and often only arguments which are repeated in an effort to prove the existence of a god. And, as I have explored all of them rather extensively, I have found them to be embarrassingly self-defeating on the basis of their own premises.

(As goes your mention of an ontological approach? Are you asking me to compare them to reality or are you referencing the Ontological Argument made popular be Rene Descartes? In the case of the later, I'm an empiricist - I don't believe in a priori knowledge - thus I find all ontological arguments for the existence of god meaningless.)

To address the "Five Ways":

Aquinas' "Argument from Motion" posits that all things which move must have been moved, and then later concludes that god is an unmoved mover. This argument is self-defeating for its conclusion is contrary to its premise. If everything which moves must first be moved itself, then god must, if he is to move, be moved himself.

Aquinas' second and third ways ("Argument from Efficient Causes", and "Argument from Possibility and Necessity") largely resemble his first. All together they comprise what is known as the Cosmological Argument - which is, in of itself, just like the "Argument from Motion." It is, alone, very unconvincing. Not only is it self-defeating, it also ignores temporal inaccuracies in its model. The Cosmological Argument wants the universe to be created, but if the universe is the totality of all things, within it is also the fabric of time. And, as creation is a temporal concept, without the universe (and the fabric of time), talk of "creation" is quite meaningless. In fact, talk of "anytime before" the universe is absurd - what time is therefor before time itself?

Aquinas' fourth and fifth ("Argument from Gradation of Being", and "Argument from Design") ways were designed to identify the creator he felt he proved in his first three ways as the Christian God. The fourth way is something that has nearly disappeared entirely - it's impossible to identify what one thing is "better" than the rest. Such a concept is often considered subjectivist and meaningless. But, the fifth way has indeed become very popular (if not the most popular argument for the existence of a god). The fifth way today is known as The Teleological Argument or The Argument from Design. These arguments, much like the Cosmological Argument, are self-defeating. They posit that things which "appear" to have purpose, have complexity, or have order, must have an intelligent designer. In this case, would not the intelligent designer himself require design for he would be that much more complex and "amazing?" Again, the arguments are contrary to their conclusions. If the argument stands on the improbability and the unlikelihood of our "natural universe" existing without intelligent direction than the argument must also, in its essence, posit the even further improbability and unlikelihood of an exceedingly intelligent, complex, and ordered god existing without intelligent direction. In this way the Argument Design actually supports a natural mechanism (like evolution) which moves in a non-complex, non-intelligent, and non-directed, way towards complexity, intelligence, and seeming direction - for this is the most likely mover in the case of such argumentation - it has within itself the most minimal requirement for intelligent design as it is largely simplistic.

[It was a long weekend - I'll try to get to some of these other questions soon. I'm looking forward to addressing the claim that atheism is a belief held in "faith." That's funny.]

[*Steven*]

Deism bores me - it's also sort of a dead movement. On one instance, I can't imagine how people, today, make the transition from theist to deist without, instead, stepping a few more feet into the realm of atheism. Deism is, supposedly, a scientific decision - it removes the more supernatural and unbelievable aspects of traditional theism. However, though impersonal and often apathetic - the god of deism is still a god. Given the scientific atmosphere of today I fail to really see the appeal of deism but for a comfortable transition between theism and atheism. I made a similar transition myself. Before denouncing god altogether, I imagined that he might just not be like anything described in the Bible. But, I still had no basis for such a belief - though I had removed the more outlandish and immediately fairy-tale-esq aspects of religious belief, I still believed in something for which there was no evidence. At that point my deism had blurred into atheism, eventually disappearing altogether.

How would you explain the unexplainable? Something not yet proven by science?

i have more to ask but ill edit later, time crunch!

[NoSex]

How do you deal with the hatred for being a atheist?

do people really hate atheists though?

Oh, people f**king despise atheists. I've gotten a lot of guff in my life for all sorts of absurd things (being a rapist, a drug dealer, a devil worshiper, etc. etc.) but the one thing reality does not force itself against is my atheism. I am indeed an atheist - and, a lot of people have thought all sorts of unfavorable things of me for just that. Generally, this does not concern me. Atheism is more accepted and more popular than it has ever been - it's actually sort of nice. And, it has always been a blessing in disguise - people's hatred. When people react to my atheism in such a manner as to signify bigotry, ignorance, or just good ol' stupidity, it's really easy to file away faces in all the right places. Essentially, it becomes really easy to choose your "friends" and to choose your "enemies." I've had plenty of Christian friends, but for each I've probably had three irreligious friends. I'm not too much of a discriminating anus, but, in the same vain, I must admit I don't have much tolerance for spirituality (I pretty much hate it).

But, this disfavor on each case makes a lot of sense - both parties have very different, often very divergent, world views. Theists and atheists are people who see the world dramatically different from one another. This difference cause tension and conflict which often manifests itself in hateful behavior. Altogether though, and this is largely anecdotal, I have found theists to be far more hateful, unforgiving, and uncivil in comparison to atheists. This may have something to do with the fact that for a theist these questions are of utter importance. For an atheist, many of these questions are jokes - they could care less in many cases. A passionate hatred tends to be that much more passionate when hell fire is in question. If I were a Christian, for example, I would be more afraid allowing my children to play with an atheist than I would allowing them to play with child molesters and murders. Think about it - In one case you're risking their immortal and eternal soul, in the other case you're only risking their fleshy bodies. It's a no brainer!

In either case, atheists are definitely one of the most hated, if not the most hated minority in all of America. [1]

And you should hear what atheists say. It's a two way street pal.

A two-way street? Are you kidding me? It's more like a dirt path taken by horse and buggy against about fifty super-highways all headed in the opposite direction. The numbers are staggering. The many people who explicitly hate atheists against those who dislike Christians are stupendous. It's just unyieldingly obvious that is isn't so simple that both parties dislike each other. This is an army of spiritualists against a small band of rogues - it's like a f**king holocaust of hate.

Not that it isn't fun or anything.

As having experienced both worlds. It's really no difference. Atheists have a faith that there is no god. They'll say it's not faith. In fact, it is faith because they can't prove there isn't a god.

Same goes with Christians and those of all faiths. They have equal faith there is a god. And also have no evidence there is a god.

So, if we can't prove something absolutely we have "faith" in it? Alright, given that broad interpretation of "faith" then we all have faith in all things to a certain gradation. If you push it enough, there might be no distinction at all - might as well render "faith" as meaningless. Rather, I would like to explore another definition - something I think is more commonly accepted.

Hell, let's use the god damn Bible!

Hebrews 11:1 (NASB)
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Hmm. It's becoming a bit more clear. Simply, I would argue that faith is belief which is disproportional to reason and evidence. Faith is an emotional manifestation - an intricate and masked version of wishful-thinking.

Now, you seem to argue that atheists and theists both have this so-called "faith." Even further, you seem to posit that they have an equitable faith - that it is of similar quality. If this were true evidence and reason would have to be as disproportional in the case of an atheistic position as it would be for a theistic position - this is a proposition of which your initial premises denounce.

You argue that theists have no proof that there is a god, thus they have faith. So, in what case would they not have faith? If they didn't believe in god? Are you starting to see how silly your position is?

To demonstrate by way of analogy: Do I have faith that unicorns and Santa Clause does not exist? If I do, is this so-called "faith" proportional to the faith of believers in unicorns and Santa Clause despite the blatant lack of evidence?

[Uronacid]

Oh, people f**king despise atheists. I've gotten a lot of guff in my life for all sorts of absurd things (being a rapist, a drug dealer, a devil worshiper, etc. etc.) but the one thing reality does not force itself against is my atheism. I am indeed an atheist - and, a lot of people have thought all sorts of unfavorable things of me for just that. Generally, this does not concern me. Atheism is more accepted and more popular than it has ever been - it's actually sort of nice. And, it has always been a blessing in disguise - people's hatred. When people react to my atheism in such a manner as to signify bigotry, ignorance, or just good ol' stupidity, it's really easy to file away faces in all the right places. Essentially, it becomes really easy to choose your "friends" and to choose your "enemies." I've had plenty of Christian friends, but for each I've probably had three irreligious friends. I'm not too much of a discriminating anus, but, in the same vain, I must admit I don't have much tolerance for spirituality (I pretty much hate it).

But, this disfavor on each case makes a lot of sense - both parties have very different, often very divergent, world views. Theists and atheists are people who see the world dramatically different from one another. This difference cause tension and conflict which often manifests itself in hateful behavior. Altogether though, and this is largely anecdotal, I have found theists to be far more hateful, unforgiving, and uncivil in comparison to atheists. This may have something to do with the fact that for a theist these questions are of utter importance. For an atheist, many of these questions are jokes - they could care less in many cases. A passionate hatred tends to be that much more passionate when hell fire is in question. If I were a Christian, for example, I would be more afraid allowing my children to play with an atheist than I would allowing them to play with child molesters and murders. Think about it - In one case you're risking their immortal and eternal soul, in the other case you're only risking their fleshy bodies. It's a no brainer!

In either case, atheists are definitely one of the most hated, if not the most hated minority in all of America. [1]
A two-way street? Are you kidding me? It's more like a dirt path taken by horse and buggy against about fifty super-highways all headed in the opposite direction. The numbers are staggering. The many people who explicitly hate atheists against those who dislike Christians are stupendous. It's just unyieldingly obvious that is isn't so simple that both parties dislike each other. This is an army of spiritualists against a small band of rogues - it's like a f**king holocaust of hate.

Not that it isn't fun or anything.
So, if we can't prove something absolutely we have "faith" in it? Alright, given that broad interpretation of "faith" then we all have faith in all things to a certain gradation. If you push it enough, there might be no distinction at all - might as well render "faith" as meaningless. Rather, I would like to explore another definition - something I think is more commonly accepted.

Hell, let's use the god damn Bible!

Hebrews 11:1 (NASB)
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Hmm. It's becoming a bit more clear. Simply, I would argue that faith is belief which is disproportional to reason and evidence. Faith is an emotional manifestation - an intricate and masked version of wishful-thinking.

Now, you seem to argue that atheists and theists both have this so-called "faith." Even further, you seem to posit that they have an equitable faith - that it is of similar quality. If this were true evidence and reason would have to be as disproportional in the case of an atheistic position as it would be for a theistic position - this is a proposition of which your initial premises denounce.

You argue that theists have no proof that there is a god, thus they have faith. So, in what case would they not have faith? If they didn't believe in god? Are you starting to see how silly your position is?

To demonstrate by way of analogy: Do I have faith that unicorns and Santa Clause does not exist? If I do, is this so-called "faith" proportional to the faith of believers in unicorns and Santa Clause despite the blatant lack of evidence?

Nate you are one of the most "hardcore" religion hating athiests I know. I have felt it myself. You have barely any tolerance for someone who talks about their faith, almost none. You have a big mouth when it comes to that subject. Sometimes it's as if you go out of your way to offend people when the topic comes up. If a conversation of faith comes up, you're the first one to step up to the plate and try to make a religious person look stupid for being religious. No-one likes someone who makes them look stupid for something that they have grafted into their life. Perhaps the pain your receive from religious people is due to the effects of your own actions. They don't hate athiests, they hate you.

The part about kids, I don't trust anyone Christian or Non-Christian. Yes, Christians are supposed to have a moral standard, but the majority of them don't follow it. People are sinful, and the don't stop sinning. I say that you're just as likely to be raped/molested by someone who claims to be a Christian as you are by someone who claims to be an atheist. They are just as sinful as many athiests.

Lol, are you sure they called you a call you a rapist because your an atheist? I never had a problem with athiests. It doesn't bother me when someone believes strongly in something I don't. Believe whatever you want. I'll answer questions about my faith, but I don't need to defend it. xD

The faith part, you're choosing not to believe and we're choosing to the believe. You do have faith that he doesn't exist. I know this because you try so hard to prove us that he doesn't exist. You can't prove he doesn't exist. We can't prove that he does. You're choosing.

[*Steven*]

Lol, are you sure they called you a call you a rapist because your an atheist? I never had a problem with athiests. It doesn't bother me when someone believes strongly in something I don't. Believe whatever you want. I'll answer questions about my faith, but I don't need to defend it. xD

The faith part, you're choosing not to believe and we're choosing to the believe. You do have faith that he doesn't exist. I know this because you try so hard to prove us that he doesn't exist. You can't prove he doesn't exist. We can't prove that he does. You're choosing.

People are very closed minded, and those labels aren't the least bit surprising. I have no doubt that he was called such, I've received the same for not believing in any organized religion.

[Uronacid]

People are very closed minded, and those labels aren't the least bit surprising. I have no doubt that he was called such, I've received the same for not believing in any organized religion.

That's just it though, it's people. Not the religion. The people of a religion do hold it's reputation in their hands, however they aren't the religion. I have even been labeled by other Christians. It's not just athiests that receive that kind of treatment.

PS: I have to say, I have never been called a rapist. LOL

[*Steven*]

I wasn't blaming Christianity for that. I know that the majority (or seeming majority) of Christians don't practice Christianity as it is meant to be practiced (regardless of the presence of a god). Organized religion and it's hypocrisy is one of the major reasons I started to doubt the Christian god. I would have been perfectly brainwashed if:

A. Church wasn't so damn boring.
B. People practiced what they preached.
C. There was more evidence (I know you can't prove/disprove yada yada, I'm just very logic oriented)
D. Interpretations of the Bible that shunned members of society that did nothing wrong (see: Gays) did not come to light and become so prevalent.

[Uronacid]

I wasn't blaming Christianity for that. I know that the majority (or seeming majority) of Christians don't practice Christianity as it is meant to be practiced (regardless of the presence of a god). Organized religion and it's hypocrisy is one of the major reasons I started to doubt the Christian god. I would have been perfectly brainwashed if:

A. Church wasn't so damn boring.
B. People practiced what they preached.
C. There was more evidence (I know you can't prove/disprove yada yada, I'm just very logic oriented)
D. Interpretations of the Bible that shunned members of society that did nothing wrong (see: Gays) did not come to light and become so prevalent.

I can't blame you for the way you feel. I completely understand. I would never force my beliefs upon someone. I don't know, the only reason I said what I said was: I feel that this has turned into a "bad Christian people" argument. Sometimes, I think that people out side of our religion look down on our religion and not us when they should be doing the opposite. In some ways, I hate Christians just as much as you do. It's depressing to see people brainwashed. Hopefully I'm not as hypocritical as the rest.

[*Steven*]

People who are civil and non-judgmental about it are just fine with me. Even if they go around having sex with everyone and doing a lot of non-Christian things, I don't care as long as they don't try to lecture me about it.

I understand Christians are looked down upon, but that's only because y'all are the root of the evil in this world. You especially because you're a white male from America. No but seriously, y'all have a shit load of people, not so much atheists/deists/hei ren.

[Uronacid]

People who are civil and non-judgmental about it are just fine with me. Even if they go around having sex with everyone and doing a lot of non-Christian things, I don't care as long as they don't try to lecture me about it.

I understand Christians are looked down upon, but that's only because y'all are the root of the evil in this world. You especially because you're a white male from America. No but seriously, y'all have a shit load of people, not so much atheists/deists/hei ren.

I don't pay attention to it. I turn a blind eye to it all. I'm better off ignoring that kind of behavior until I learn how to deal with it properly.

[NoSex]

They don't hate athiests, they hate you.

Way off base; I know a ton of very serious and dedicated Christians who absolutely love me. You're just sort of clueless; you would be better off not trying to play psychoanalysis.

How would you explain the unexplainable?

You don't. If you can't explain something it's just that simple, you can't. Inventing some sort of supernatural entity doesn't serve as an explanation, it serves as an excuse - often a comfortable one. (ex: "Where do we go when we die?" "Well, all the bad people go to a very bad place and all the people who believe exactly what I do - I mean, all the people who are good - go to a very good place.")

[*jeanna*]

"Oh, people f**king despise atheists. I've gotten a lot of guff in my life for all sorts of absurd things (being a rapist, a drug dealer, a devil worshiper, etc. etc.)"

i remember when i "came out" in 6th grade during lunch and everyone swarmed around me like i had a disease and said, "what??? you don't believe in god? wtf? how do you?... [more questions]"
fast forward like 7 years and 90% of them don't believe anymore or if they do they never go to church like they once proclaimed.

[Uronacid]

Way off base; I know a ton of very serious and dedicated Christians who absolutely love me. You're just sort of clueless; you would be better off not trying to play psychoanalysis.

I'm not trying. I'm sure that there are people who are Christians and like you. I never said that there weren't I didn't even imply that there weren't. The only thing I am trying to get across is:

You go out of your way to make religious people look dumb here on cB. What makes me think you don't do this in real life. I'm sure there are people who hate you because you're an atheist, but there are probably more who hate you because of the way you carry yourself. Don't play the charity case. It's not that hard being an atheist. It's not your atheism that bothers people; it's your attitude. I only say this based upon your actions here on cB.

I don't know you in real life, but you sound like a pussy. Talking abotu how "difficult" it is to be an atheist. You make it sound like you're being pressured into Christianity because you face so many hardships as an atheist. Let me tell you, you're not alone. Even as a Christian I get ripped up by the people in my own church. Turns out, I'm not as "religious" as they expect me to be. I'm sure we share some of the same issues with Christians. I haven't been called a rapist, but have been told I'm going to hell several times. While those things may "hurt"; I don't bitch about it. It's actually not that difficult to suck it up and move on. It's not my place to judge them. God will do that for me, and the God that they believe in will judge them for what they've done to you.

"Oh, people f**king despise atheists. I've gotten a lot of guff in my life for all sorts of absurd things (being a rapist, a drug dealer, a devil worshiper, etc. etc.)"

i remember when i "came out" in 6th grade during lunch and everyone swarmed around me like i had a disease and said, "what??? you don't believe in god? wtf? how do you?... [more questions]"
fast forward like 7 years and 90% of them don't believe anymore or if they do they never go to church like they once proclaimed.

They were young and immature Jeanna. They were probably just repeating what their parents told them.

[kryogenix]

Sorry for the late response, I don't come here often anymore.

(lol at how pissed some people are getting in this topic)

Thomas Aquinas' "Five Ways," though proposed nearly eight centuries ago, remain, to this day, to be the most popular and often only arguments which are repeated in an effort to prove the existence of a god. And, as I have explored all of them rather extensively, I have found them to be embarrassingly self-defeating on the basis of their own premises.

Aquinas' "Argument from Motion" posits that all things which move must have been moved, and then later concludes that god is an unmoved mover. This argument is self-defeating for its conclusion is contrary to its premise. If everything which moves must first be moved itself, then god must, if he is to move, be moved himself.

Do you think you might be interpreting the argument wrong?

If all temporal things that move must first be moved by something else, this requires that must be something be something that came first that wasn't, something that exists OUTSIDE of the temporal universe, to which the first statement does not apply. This is what is called God (or a god if you prefer, since it doesn't necessarily prove the Christian God).

I believe that is what Aquinas was trying to say and I believe that he actually addressed this in his original writings, so I disagree that it is self defeating.

[bat19]

It's not uncommon - as an atheist - to receive comments like this. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked me, "So you believe in nothing?!" I wouldn't be a millionaire or anything, but I would have a ton of f**king nickels.

Maybe the reason you get asked this question so often is the fact that you feel it necessary to bring attention to yourself to people who don't care to begin with. It's incredibly annoying when these christian wackos come up to me trying to cleanse my sinful soul, but it's much much more annoying when an Atheist dickhead wants it known he is an atheist just so he can stand out. Dude, no one gives a fucking shit, if they did, they'd fucking ask you.

So, my question to the atheist is "Why do you think you are so fucking important that you think people actually care about your one-sided opinions?"

[Sandraaa]

Could someone please acknowledge us Agnostics?

Anyway, I'm going to respond as an Atheist. I don't really care if people don't consider my views as important, what the hell, they might not be important. That isn't the matter. What f**king bothers me is when Christians preach and argue just for the sake of wanting to change my opinion.

Most of the time, Christians start these debates.

[bat19]

Could someone please acknowledge us Agnostics?

Anyway, I'm going to respond as an Atheist. I don't really care if people don't consider my views as important, what the hell, they might not be important. That isn't the matter. What f**king bothers me is when Christians preach and argue just for the sake of wanting to change my opinion.

Most of the time, Christians start these debates.

I'm replying to this post even though Im not 100% that it was in response to my post. I'm not saying Atheist opinion's aren't important, I'm an atheist and I find my opinions important. What I dont like is when an atheist wants it known they're an atheist. Same with christians, your religious beliefs arent important to anyone but you so shut the f**k up. Why would I go up to someone and say "I'm an atheist, lets pointlessly argue about something that's not even a debate so that I can think Im smarter than you." A debate goes somewhere, it has an ending. An argument can go on forever without either side making any headway. That's all religious "debates" are, arguments.

[*jeanna*]

I'm replying to this post even though Im not 100% that it was in response to my post. I'm not saying Atheist opinion's aren't important, I'm an atheist and I find my opinions important. What I dont like is when an atheist wants it known they're an atheist. Same with christians, your religious beliefs arent important to anyone but you so shut the f**k up. Why would I go up to someone and say "I'm an atheist, lets pointlessly argue about something that's not even a debate so that I can think Im smarter than you." A debate goes somewhere, it has an ending. An argument can go on forever without either side making any headway. That's all religious "debates" are, arguments.

well obviously people are interested if this thread has responses. he isn't going up to people and saying "im atheist, let's fight". it's an online forum, loosen up.

[Sandraaa]

I'm replying to this post even though Im not 100% that it was in response to my post. I'm not saying Atheist opinion's aren't important, I'm an atheist and I find my opinions important. What I dont like is when an atheist wants it known they're an atheist. Same with christians, your religious beliefs arent important to anyone but you so shut the f**k up. Why would I go up to someone and say "I'm an atheist, lets pointlessly argue about something that's not even a debate so that I can think Im smarter than you." A debate goes somewhere, it has an ending. An argument can go on forever without either side making any headway. That's all religious "debates" are, arguments.

He made this topic in response to Podo's. Did you see that thread?

[Uronacid]

He made this topic in response to Podo's. Did you see that thread?

Yeah, but honestly... atheism. There's not much to ask. Christianity is a religion. There are hundreds of questions you can ask about a religion. It's a learning experience. Atheism is simple, you don't believe in a god. How much more do you need to understand.

Also, I agree with Jeremy in the sense that it doesn't make sense for an atheist to preach about not having a religion. But sense this topic is in response to Podo's topic (which I have taken charge of) I can't speak to poorly about it.

The thing I don't like this topic is that it seems to have become a charity case topic for one of the meanest/bitchiest/spiteful athiests I have ever known. It's pretty clear (to me) that it's not his atheism that's the problem.

Jeremy, how hard is it for you to be an atheist? I sure as hell don't give you a hard time with it. I did give you a hard time when I immature and only believed what my parents told me, but that was the past. Now that you have pretty much cleared the high-school stage and people are (for the most part) thinking on their own, how hard is it for you to be an atheist?

[NoSex]

1. I don't think being an atheist is "hard."
2. If I were afraid of discrimination why would I be so vocal about my atheism? (you people can't have your cake and eat it too)
3. Some people feel passionate about their atheism, and some people feel passionate about their theism - I encourage both parties to speak about them as such. They're important, interesting, and effecting philosophies and ideas. A dialogue is very useful.
4. My character and personality is not what America has been polled on. It's true; atheists are the most hated minority in the U.S. Read the statistics I posted.
5. How about we stop talking about my character as it is irrelevant to the issues at hand here? Unless we're desperately interested in me as opposed to more philosophically poignant ideas? Someone said something about high school and immaturity?
6. Apparently atheism is a point of interest to some people here - if you don't feel like engaging in the discussion, maybe you shouldn't?
7. You don't have to have a clearly defined "winner" in order to have a debate. Such a condition just isn't a requirement. In fact, I would argue the most interesting debates are of such a variety - without deductive end.
8. Yeah, you don't like me, we get it. So, if no one is supposed to care about my "one-sided opinions" why do you assume I'll care about yours? This is an online forum - it's an open discussion. People can freely engage or not, you don't have to be anyone's parent.

Jeesh.

[Uronacid]

1. I don't think being an atheist is "hard."
2. If I were afraid of discrimination why would I be so vocal about my atheism? (you people can't have your cake and eat it too)
3. Some people feel passionate about their atheism, and some people feel passionate about their theism - I encourage both parties to speak about them as such. They're important, interesting, and effecting philosophies and ideas. A dialogue is very useful.
4. My character and personality is not what America has been polled on. It's true; atheists are the most hated minority in the U.S. Read the statistics I posted.
5. How about we stop talking about my character as it is irrelevant to the issues at hand here? Unless we're desperately interested in me as opposed to more philosophically poignant ideas? Someone said something about high school and immaturity?
6. Apparently atheism is a point of interest to some people here - if you don't feel like engaging in the discussion, maybe you shouldn't?
7. You don't have to have a clearly defined "winner" in order to have a debate. Such a condition just isn't a requirement. In fact, I would argue the most interesting debates are of such a variety - without deductive end.
8. Yeah, you don't like me, we get it. So, if no one is supposed to care about my "one-sided opinions" why do you assume I'll care about yours? This is an online forum - it's an open discussion. People can freely engage or not, you don't have to be anyone's parent.

Jeesh.

1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Agreed
4. Agreed, the only reason I brought it up was because I thought it related to why you were personally treated poorly as an atheist. If you were referring to the statistics then I was wrong and I apologize.
5. Agreed, I said something abotu high school and it was a personal comment to Jeremy. In high school people aren't as open minded as they should be. I gave Jeremy a hard time about his atheism in high school.
6. Agreed
7. Agreed
8. Agreed

[Peanups]

I know where you are coming from, I live in a small town in Ohio and I know I get treated differently sometimes for being an atheist. Even in my own family.
I know this wasn't directed towards me but I feel that I can help you.
I am very successful. You don't need to pray or believe in God for great things to happen to you. Rather than putting all your faith in someone you don't know is there put all your faith in yourself. If you are smart enough to question the things around you, you are smart enough to do almost anything you really put your mind to.

Live your life like you did before treat people kindly, do what your parents tell you to do, get good grades in school, work hard. Be a good person, being an atheist is no excuse whatsoever to be an a-hole.

But I am not held up to any standards though, so if I feel like killing off a human race because it is "beneficial" to the human population, would that be alright?

[brooklyneast05]

^i don't get ur point there

[Peanups]

^ it wasn't really a point. It was more like a question to Mistfits.

[brooklyneast05]

right, but i think it's safe to say that she is going to say no it's not right to kill off a human race because u feel like it. so then after she says it's not right to kill off a human race, what are u pointing out?


and why are u not held up to any standards?

[Peanups]

Well, would you say that murder is wrong?

edit: Athiest are not held up to any standards because they believe the world came into exsistences on accident and beyond the grave there is nothing. So morals and beliefs are relative. Essentially, whatever you say/think/do is right for you.

[brooklyneast05]

for the most part, yes


edit:
are u saying atheists don't have to follow the law?

[Peanups]

Question:

If I were an athiest also, and I thought that killing you would be beneficial to human society because it is "helping" the evolutionary process (survival of the fittest, right?) than it would be alright essentially, right?

[brooklyneast05]

no. why would i ever agree that u killing me is alright?

u murdering people just because u feel like it is not the evolutionary process

[*jeanna*]

what the f**k? are you saying atheists don't have morals, values or guilt? you think they can go around killing people and not feel anything?
funny thing is i have more morals than my very veryyy religious friends. i mean i'm not saying it's the same for everyone but my friend said she would basically go against her religion just to get the stupid crush she has liked for years to pay attention to her.
oh and i mean, people who have religion neverrr kill anyone. they are angels.

[Peanups]

JC haha. No I'm not saying that,, okay let's make it someone else then, I was just using you as an example.

To the evolutionary thing, in survival of the fittest, isn't it basically stating that once one species evolves from another, it becomes better (apes - humans) and has to ultimately kill it off. If I am "fitter" than someone else and I think that in the sense that it is bettering our world and helping the world rid "the outdated species," that would be okay in a sense right?

But who is there to say that I am wrong if I think that killing someone is alright?

JENNA: No, I am not saying anything of that sort. I apologize from not clarifying. I am just saying, what is right for one pperson may not be right for another. So if killing people is right for me, thats okay, right?

[brooklyneast05]

what the f**k? are you saying atheists don't have morals, values or guilt? you think they can go around killing people and not feel anything?

that seems to me to be what she's saying
so hopefully she'll hurry up and get to the point she's attempting to make so we can't find out if this is what she's saying or not


edit:
why would u think u are fitter than someone else? and why would ur personal opinion on that be grounds to murder someone? how would killing me help ur survival at all? once again, do u not think atheists have to follow the law?

[*jeanna*]

^ haha. No I'm not saying that,, okay let's make it someone else then, I was just using you as an example.

To the evolutionary thing, in survival of the fittest, isn't it basically stating that once one species evolves from another, it becomes better (apes - humans) and has to ultimately kill it off. If I am "fitter" than someone else and I think that in the sense that it is bettering our world and helping the world rid "the outdated species," that would be okay in a sense right?

But who is there to say that I am wrong if I think that killing someone is alright?

this is 2007, i dont believe it has a relevance today..
and im sure back then they did kill each other because they feared they would go extinct.

who says it is OK to kill someone?? do you know how evolution works?

ok, you're going in a whole other boat with this killing thing. you'll have to look into psychology and not religion.

[Peanups]

No, this is not what I am saying at all.

But if one thing is right for me, and it makes me feel good, isn't it okay for me to do?

If one thing is right for you, and it makes you feel good, isn't it okay for you to do?

No, I'm not stating that athiests are not bound to the law, we all are of course. I was simply using an example. Would it be better if i said "stealing something." And in the fitter thing, again it was an example, like lets say......

The neanderthals killed the species that pre-dated them. They were really doing the world good from eliminating an inferior species right?

[*jeanna*]

No, this is not what I am saying at all.

But if one thing is right for me, and it makes me feel good, isn't it okay for me to do?

If one thing is right for you, and it makes you feel good, isn't it okay for you to do?

No, I'm not stating that athiests are not bound to the law, we all are of course. I was simply using an example. Would it be better if i said "stealing something." And in the fitter thing, again it was an example, like lets say......

The neanderthals killed the species that pre-dated them. They were really doing the world good from eliminating an inferior species right?

you know, you might think by atheists not having a book to guide their life by that they have no common sense, that makes sense. but in reality, it doesn't work that way and it's not a black and white case.
atheists are evil!

"During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics,
26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious."

if you can tell, i have no idea what you're talking about. i like staying in the present.

Granted that U.S. Prisons are filled to the brim with non-violent, victimless "offenders", it is still interesting that only 0.2% of the U.S. prison population is atheist.

Judeo-Christian Total 62,594 (83.761%)
Atheist Total 156 (0.2%)

Number of Judeo-Christians in the U.S. = 159,030,000 + 2,831,000 = 161,861,000
Number of Atheist/Agnostics in the U.S. = 1,893,000

U.S. Population: Ratio % = 0.01% - Decimal Ratio = 0.0001 - Fraction = 1/10,000
Prison Population: Ratio % = .002% - Decimal Ratio = 0.00002 - Fraction = 1/50,000

1 Atheist in the U.S. for every 10,000 Judeo-Christians
1 Atheist in Prison for every 50,000 Judeo-Christians
---------------------------- --------

Catholic 29267 (39.164%)

Protestant 26162 (35.008%)

Muslim 5435 (7.273%)

Nation 1734 (2.320%)

Jewish 1325 (1.773%)

Church of Christ 1303 (1.744%)

Buddhist 882 (1.180%)

Jehovah Witness 665 (0.890%)

Orthodox 375 (0.502%)

Mormon 298 (0.399%)

Scientology 190 (0.254%)

Atheist 156 (0.209%)

Hindu 119 (0.159%)

[Peanups]

^
Again no. I am saying that since we have no Creator, there are no absolutes, correct?

What is right for me is right for me right?

Ect,, for you.

You may have the principles in your life that you follow like, don't steal, cheat, or kill and be nice, and those are the standards you follow, but that may not be the case for me.

I may have the principles in my life that I follow like, I steal and cheat and am mean to everyone, but I think that you shouldn't murder (just an example).

The actual question: What "law" say what is right and wrong and how do you decide? Simply; wouldn't it be okay to steal, cheat, lie, whatever as long as you live to your morals

(In no way am I trying to say that atheists don't have morals, I am simply asking where you get yours from and how you know they are right)

Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't intend to do so. Same for clarifying.

Anyways, I can't stay. The bolded is the ultimate question I am trying to ask.

[*jeanna*]

^
Again no. I am saying that since we have no Creator, there are no absolutes, correct?

What is right for me is right for me right?

Ect,, for you.

You may have the principles in your life that you follow like, don't steal, cheat, or kill and be nice, and those are the standards you follow, but that may not be the case for me.

I may have the principles in my life that I follow like, I steal and cheat and am mean to everyone, but I think that you shouldn't murder (just an example).

The actual question: What "law" say what is right and wrong and how do you decide? Simply; wouldn't it be okay to steal, cheat, lie, whatever as long as you live to your morals

(In no way am I trying to say that atheists don't have morals, I am simply asking where you get yours from and how you know they are right)

Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't intend to do so.

well society and environment plays a large part. i got mine from my dad, i guess? he isn't religious either. well, the laws i pertain to are the ones by the government lol, and not a bible.

but i see your point.

[brooklyneast05]

^
Again no. I am saying that since we have no Creator, there are no absolutes, correct?

What is right for me is right for me right?

Ect,, for you.

You may have the principles in your life that you follow like, don't steal, cheat, or kill and be nice, and those are the standards you follow, but that may not be the case for me.

I may have the principles in my life that I follow like, I steal and cheat and am mean to everyone, but I think that you shouldn't murder (just an example).

The actual question: What "law" say what is right and wrong and how do you decide? Simply; wouldn't it be okay to steal, cheat, lie, whatever as long as you live to your morals

(In no way am I trying to say that atheists don't have morals, I am simply asking where you get yours from and how you know they are right)

this is my post from another thread, we seem to have differing beliefs on morals

yeah i'll agree with sandra. it seems that u two are saying that to be moral, u must be christian. this means that a good number of people in the world are not moral, just because they are not christian. this also i suppose would mean that everyone prior to christianity must be immoral.

so u think that morality comes from god then?

i have the same problem with this as plato and socrates then i guess. is something moral because it's moral, or is something moral simply because god says it is?

if something is only moral because god says so, then i don't think we can really take it as seriously. right or wrong could be anything. god could say murder and slavery are moral, and they would be, just because god said they were. if things are only right or wrong on god's command, then that's just trivial and holds no weight. so then i think we can pretty much conclude that god tells us things are wrong, because they really are wrong. if god commands things to be wrong, because they are...then something being wrong, doesn't depend on god. they are wrong, that's why god says they are. so then take god out of the picture and they are still wrong.

basic moral principles exist all over the world, in all different types of religions, and pre-date christianity.

there's many things in the bible that make it not a consistent morality guide. for instance when moses commands the troops to kill every woman and every child in midian, but not the young virgins. the troops may keep the virgins for themselves. there's repeated times when things take place in the bible that are simply not moral.

the bold part is what applies. i don't think morals depend on god, so i think these basic morals apply to everyone. i think is rape is wrong, whether or not u happen to like to rape people.

[*jeanna*]

this is my post from another thread, we seem to have differing beliefs on morals
the bold part is what applies. i don't think morals depend on god, so i think these basic morals apply to everyone. i think is rape is wrong, whether or not u happen to like to rape people.

what i enjoy is when people go into drugs and stuff then saying it is defended in the bible like saying, "noo jesus drank red wine! it's not a sin to drink!" or "jesus put opium on the earth and pot, it's ok"

idk but drugs are another story all together i think.

[AThorpedo]

(In no way am I trying to say that atheists don't have morals, I am simply asking where you get yours from and how you know they are right)

You could have just asked that in the first place instead of turning this into a debate on Anarchism.

I would consider myself to be a utilitarian for the most part; essentially, the best action is the one that creates the most beneficial results to the most amount of people. I probably don't give a shit what you do as long it isn't particularly harmful to others. I generally try to treat people with the same amount of respect I would want from them. I guess you're right; no part of that is absolute. I'm not going to pretend like I have an answer to every situation you can think of or that I can always give an answer that fits within those broad guidelines.

I couldn't possibly name any single source (composing a list of sources would be asking too much as well) where I got these ideas from. On the other hand, I can tell you with the utmost certainty that twelve years of church didn't teach me anything close to that.

I hope that answers your question.

[brooklyneast05]

You could have just asked that in the first place

seriously, instead of running around in a circle with examples that make no sense whatsoever

[Peanups]

^
Well I thought that you'd understand my first statement, obviously; no.

JC- Yes, it kind of pertains to what I was saying. I wasn't stating that God makes right and wrong, I was just asking where you get your morals from. Nevermind, I get what you are saying. But isn't that then making "guidelines" of what is right and wrong? I thought nothing was absolute, isn't that what evolution states since we have nothing to put these laws into place?


Choices are relative right?

My earlier question was and I'll try to state it the best possible;

Since we don't have morals that we ABSOLUTELY have to obide by (right? We are able to pick and choose), then would you consider lying, stealing, cheating, etc. to be alright? Remember; who decides what is right or wrong? If I think the government is wrong, I could basically do whatever I want, right? (This does not mean I am not aware that I will suffer consequences, but if I think if it is in the name of what I think is right, wouldn't it be okay for me to steal money, etc?)

[*jeanna*]

^
Well I thought that you'd understand my first statement, obviously; no.

JC- Yes, it kind of pertains to what I was saying. I wasn't stating that God makes right and wrong, I was just asking where you get your morals from. Nevermind, I get what you are saying. But isn't that then making "guidelines" of what is right and wrong? I thought nothing was absolute, isn't that what evolution states since we have nothing to put these laws into place?
Choices are relative right?

My earlier question was and I'll try to state it the best possible;

Since we don't have morals that we ABSOLUTELY have to obide by (right? We are able to pick and choose), then would you consider lying, stealing, cheating, etc. to be alright? Remember; who decides what is right or wrong? If I think the government is wrong, I could basically do whatever I want, right? (This does not mean I am not aware that I will suffer consequences, but if I think if it is in the name of what I think is right, wouldn't it be okay for me to steal money, etc?)

yes, i guess. since atheists don't really have a BOOK to guide their lives like religious people do, you could say that.
idk about the government question but i all comes back down to guilt, i believe.

[brooklyneast05]

^
Well I thought that you'd understand my first statement, obviously; no.
JC- Yes, it kind of pertains to what I was saying. I wasn't stating that God makes right and wrong, I was just asking where you get your morals from. Nevermind, I get what you are saying. But isn't that then making "guidelines" of what is right and wrong? I thought nothing was absolute, isn't that what evolution states since we have nothing to put these laws into place?
Choices are relative right?
My earlier question was and I'll try to state it the best possible;
Since we don't have morals that we ABSOLUTELY have to obide by (right? We are able to pick and choose), then would you consider lying, stealing, cheating, etc. to be alright? Remember; who decides what is right or wrong? If I think the government is wrong, I could basically do whatever I want, right? (This does not mean I am not aware that I will suffer consequences, but if I think if it is in the name of what I think is right, wouldn't it be okay for me to steal money, etc?)

the only thing my atheism asserts is that i don't believe in god. my atheism says nothing about my morals or where i get them. i don't get why are u assuming that since i'm atheist then i think this and that and don't believe in this and that. u've never asked me if i think morals are absolute or relative, u've just assumed that based on the fact that i'm an atheist, which makes no sense. also u claim i believe this because it's what evolution says. again, do u not see that u are ASSUMING these things? the fact that im an atheist, says nothing about my belief in evolution. the ONLY thing my atheism tells u is that i don't believe in a god. i don't even understand how u want me to answer this, because ur entire argument is based on assumptions that u've made.


are ur morals absolute?
give me some examples of ur absolute morals

[Uronacid]

^
Well I thought that you'd understand my first statement, obviously; no.

JC- Yes, it kind of pertains to what I was saying. I wasn't stating that God makes right and wrong, I was just asking where you get your morals from. Nevermind, I get what you are saying. But isn't that then making "guidelines" of what is right and wrong? I thought nothing was absolute, isn't that what evolution states since we have nothing to put these laws into place?
Choices are relative right?

My earlier question was and I'll try to state it the best possible;

Since we don't have morals that we ABSOLUTELY have to obide by (right? We are able to pick and choose), then would you consider lying, stealing, cheating, etc. to be alright? Remember; who decides what is right or wrong? If I think the government is wrong, I could basically do whatever I want, right? (This does not mean I am not aware that I will suffer consequences, but if I think if it is in the name of what I think is right, wouldn't it be okay for me to steal money, etc?)

I have been meaning to say what you're saying for quite some time, but I haven't been able to find the correct wording for the argument.

[Kontroll]

^
Again no. I am saying that since we have no Creator, there are no absolutes, correct?

What is right for me is right for me right?

Ect,, for you.

You may have the principles in your life that you follow like, don't steal, cheat, or kill and be nice, and those are the standards you follow, but that may not be the case for me.

I may have the principles in my life that I follow like, I steal and cheat and am mean to everyone, but I think that you shouldn't murder (just an example).

The actual question: What "law" say what is right and wrong and how do you decide? Simply; wouldn't it be okay to steal, cheat, lie, whatever as long as you live to your morals

(In no way am I trying to say that atheists don't have morals, I am simply asking where you get yours from and how you know they are right)

Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't intend to do so. Same for clarifying.

Anyways, I can't stay. The bolded is the ultimate question I am trying to ask.

I'd say that we are all relative, in a manner of speaking. Since you believe there is no god, you choose to follow another set of morals and standards. As goes with each of us. But, considering we as individuals are apart of a greater whole, we follow a certain set of rules. Society would not exist if we lived one hundred percent as individuals.

I really think that's what it comes down to. Society. We all have our cultures, and to each culture, certain things are deemed right and wrong. And I also think that's where the conflict comes into play. Eachothers morals and bounderies.

Okay, I really don't know what I'm talking about anymore. But, that's how I see it.

[Uronacid]

Most of the main morals in the Bible are fairly basic. I can't disagree with them. the majority of the rules in the Bible are there to help you. Just look at the ten commandments:

1. Don't put anything before God.
2. Don't worship any image.
3. Don't belittle the name of God.
4. Set one day aside for rest.
5. Live a life that honors your parents.
6. Don't murder people.
7. Don't have sex with someone if you're married.
8. Don't steal someones stuff.
9. Don't spread lies that harm people.
10. Don't get jealous of the things that others own.

What are the biggest morals that you guys have a problem with? The homosexual thing? The Bible doesn't clearly condemn a "loving" homosexual relationship. People just interpret the Bible that way. The Bible usually talks about homosexuality when it's referring to acts of rape or derogatory sexual acts. Personally, I don't know for sure how God will judge homosexuality. I just stay away from the act. I'm not a homosexual so it's not difficult, but if people so easily interpret it that way then I don't want to bother with it.

I do believe that there is an absolute right and wrong decision in every case. I believe that in every decision there is only one correct choice. We are only left to try our best in everything we do.

[bat19]

Jeremy, how hard is it for you to be an atheist? I sure as hell don't give you a hard time with it. I did give you a hard time when I immature and only believed what my parents told me, but that was the past. Now that you have pretty much cleared the high-school stage and people are (for the most part) thinking on their own, how hard is it for you to be an atheist?

Sorry it took so long to reply to this, havent been on in a while. I'd say for me, it's pretty easy to be an atheist. It's not like I organize picnics in the park or set up atheist social functions, I just go about my life without even really thinking about the subject until it comes up at some point. I've never been one for obstinance, I usually just let the cards fall as they may and in doing so I've become one of the most mellow, laid back people I know, which occasionally bites me in the ass. I live a fairly worry-free life for the most part though.
I don't bother myself with questions of faith, if I had any I wouldnt have to question it. As far as faith establishing morals, that can be true to an extent. I grew up in a semi-religious family. My mother, like myself, is fairly laid back and stopped going to church when it became an inconvenience for her. My extended family is very involved with their religion; my uncle has helped build and fund churches in New York and Florida. I have the morals and convictions I have because of the fact that I grew up in a religious environment. As many children do, I've adopted my parent's way of thinking when it comes to religion, politics, and manners. Anyone who knows me will tell you I'm one of the most polite people you will ever meet, at times, so in that regard my mother didnt do too bad a job.
Religion is based around conviction; if you have it, you believe, if you don't, chances are you will lose your faith. Which is fine, every man's journey is their own. Atheism is much easier than religion, but it gives you the opportunity to question what religions already have their own answers to.

[Peanups]

the only thing my atheism asserts is that i don't believe in god. my atheism says nothing about my morals or where i get them. i don't get why are u assuming that since i'm atheist then i think this and that and don't believe in this and that. u've never asked me if i think morals are absolute or relative, u've just assumed that based on the fact that i'm an atheist, which makes no sense. also u claim i believe this because it's what evolution says. again, do u not see that u are ASSUMING these things? the fact that im an atheist, says nothing about my belief in evolution. the ONLY thing my atheism tells u is that i don't believe in a god. i don't even understand how u want me to answer this, because ur entire argument is based on assumptions that u've made.
are ur morals absolute?
give me some examples of ur absolute morals

I thought it was an "educated guess" to say that since you are and athiest and therefore there is no god, I don't understand where you get right and wrong from.

edit: anyways to fully answer your question.
Yes, I believe in absolutes.
I believe there is a God, made the earth in 6 literal days, rested on the 7th to observe and wonder at His creation.

Basically what Uronacid has said (sorry I forgot your name).
Don't cheat, lie, murder, steal, etc.

Thank you Jeremy and Jeanna, it cleared up some of my quesiton.

I have been meaning to say what you're saying for quite some time, but I haven't been able to find the correct wording for the argument.

Yes! That is why I had to go in a "circle" as some have said.

I also have another question, but that'll have to wait. Sorry, I have a whole lot of things to do.

[brooklyneast05]

so are ur morals absolute or not? if so, give me an example of some


oh ok, u edited.
well i don't know, i suppose my morals are relative, because they depend on the situation. i think murdering for the fun of it is wrong, but if someone was to murder someone like hitler, i don't think that's wrong. i think stealing is wrong, if someone steals because their kid hasn't eaten in three days, well...that's a different story to me. so i dont know


edit again:
yea, basically the post below mine

[NoSex]

Since we don't have morals that we ABSOLUTELY have to obide by... I could basically do whatever I want, right?

Anyone can "basically do whatever" one "wants." This is despite the fact that one is religious or not - several of us have already demonstrated this fact by presenting to you the disproportional level of religiosity and irreligiosity within our prison system. Essentially, we all do whatever we want. I would argue that most men and women are not compelled by their religious sentiments anymore than they are compelled by duty in any other field. We do, generally, what we believe, either subconsciously or consciously, will be most pragmatic for ourselves - we attempt to accomplish our goals. With happiness as a rather popular goal it becomes quite easy to see where our moral sentiments, feelings, and convictions most fundamentally arise from. We do what is "right" in order to secure ourselves, protect ourselves, and accomplish our goals. Further, we could argue that things such as the "moral conscience" arises from the evolutionary process. We already know that assimilation is quite a universal human and animalistic characteristic, but beyond that - guilt and the conscience would be useful in maintaining civility. With these traits men would be less likely to quarrel and more likely to work together in order to increase longevity and progress their species.

You see, morality is something which has been analyzed and studied on numerous academic fronts - it isn't something that is entirely alien to our psychological and sociological understandings. People act in their supposed benefit - generally. And, in a sociality context, doing what is generally considered "right" is often in one's supposed benefit. It isn't unusual that people take this course of action and I posit that with or without religion this sort of morality would still persist.

Sure, there may not be any absolute values, but that is beyond that fact that actions still hold consequences, people still have evolutionary echoes, and society is a functioning, lively, body. We act accordingly, and we formulate ideas in regards to our goals and society in which we live. That's where you get your morals, and that's where I get mine too. But, I don't even really believe in morality (at least no as an objective entity), so, whatever.

But, just to make fun of your infantile and totalitarian view of ethics:
"If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man's only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a "moral commandment" is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments."
-- Ayn Rand: John Galt's radio address in Atlas Shrugged

How precious is your morality if you follow it merely because it is commanded of you? I build my own morality - I consider all angles. I am the creator of my ethical system. You don't make moral choices, hell, some might say you don't make choices at all. You have simply accepted a law for which you have no understanding, and for what? Don't start reading books, lest you find the true roots of your so-called "morality."

[ersatz]

It's not like morality is a new idea. Just because someone doesn't have a God to tell them what to do doesn't mean they revert to cavemen, and even cavemen had morals. Religions are made by people. Morals and values arise from observation of society -- when something is not going very well, people look at it and pinpoint what about it is not going well. Then they tell everyone to not do it. It's just like observing a bunch of children for a week and seeing them fall from the plastic house that they climb on. They keep getting hurt. Eventually you're going to realize that maybe climbing on the house isn't such a good idea, so you'll tell them not to, and they'll see that it is wrong. It's not a very complex concept...atheists get their morals the same way anybody else does.

Anyone can really do anything as long as it doesn't hurt a living thing (and don't get all technical like, "Isn't eating animals hurting them?", shut up).

[Peanups]

^

LOL at the last thing.

But what says that harming a living thing is wrong, if some person doesn't believe that keeping laws are important?

Also, just to add, atheism is a religeon, so you can add that into your statement.

Anyways, to your example, (let me play along ) what if someone believes that they can climb that house without falling off? See if you apply that principle to everything, we wouldn't have all of the mechanicisms and electronics if people just followed your example.

I don't know, but wouldn't you imagine if you saw kids trying new things and continually failing, in which they experience self doubt, does that mean that no one should try something new?

-"Hey billy"
"hey"
-"whats wrong?"
"nothing"
-"no seriously dude."
"i dont know. Im just a failure. I can't get anything right"

lol. I thought dialogue would help the effect.. anyways.


I've put in my two-cents.

[brooklyneast05]

ummmmm
wanna explain how atheism is a religion?

[*jeanna*]

^

LOL at the last thing.

But what says that harming a living thing is wrong, if some person doesn't believe that keeping laws are important?

Also, just to add, atheism is a religeon, so you can add that into your statement.

Anyways, to your example, (let me play along ) what if someone believes that they can climb that house without falling off? See if you apply that principle to everything, we wouldn't have all of the mechanicisms and electronics if people just followed your example.

I don't know, but wouldn't you imagine if you saw kids trying new things and continually failing, in which they experience self doubt, does that mean that no one should try something new?

-"Hey billy"
"hey"
-"whats wrong?"
"nothing"
-"no seriously dude."
"i dont know. Im just a failure. I can't get anything right"

lol. I thought dialogue would help the effect.. anyways.
I've put in my two-cents.

do you know what common sense is? like i said before, look into mental states before assuming things.

[Peanups]

^ I'm not saying killing is right. I am just using a person who may think killing is okay. I think there are plenty of examples that I don't have to give. Wait, how about Hitler?

Anyways;

Well to put it simply how I see it;

It offers how you were created.
-BANG!
Where you go and what happens when you die.
-Nothing. Dirt.
What you live by.
-As some have said, observance of society, others have said friends, family etc.
Faith,, right?
-Evolution hasn't completely been proven, there are still many gaps in fossil records and etc (of course I am not saying all other religions are perfect..) If you can tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is true, PM me.

Hm, sounds a lot like what Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, etc does,
it gives answers. (edit)

[brooklyneast05]

1. hitler was not an atheist, so what's ur point? i don't get it

2. what is so hard for u to understand? atheism means u don't believe in god. THAT'S IT. THAT'S ALL, THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO IT. atheism does not offer an explanation to how we were created. it's been repeated multiple times in this thread and u can look it up wherever u would like. atheism does not say any such thing about how we were created. so, u're either stupid or u're lying, which one is it?

3. once again, ur apparent lack of understanding for what atheism is.

4. we live by the same things u live by, minus a being in the sky looking over us

5. evolution is a theory and a fact. same thing as with atheism, i don't even think u know what u're talking about. ( and again, atheism doesn't = belief in evolution, so throwing that in as a proof of atheism as a religion makes no sense)

u haven't made one point that made any sense at all. i'm done responding to u, it's like talking to a brick wall. u don't even know what atheism is and u've been told over and over.

atheist: : one who believes that there is no deity

THE END

[*jeanna*]

1. hitler was not an atheist, so what's ur point? i don't get it

2. what is so hard for u to understand? atheism means u don't believe in god. THAT'S IT. THAT'S ALL, THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO IT. atheism does not offer an explanation to how we were created. it's been repeated multiple times in this thread and u can look it up wherever u would like. atheism does not say any such thing about how we were created. so, u're either stupid or u're lying, which one is it?

3. once again, ur apparent lack of understanding for what atheism is.

4. we live by the same things u live by, minus a being in the sky looking over us

5. evolution is a theory and a fact. same thing as with atheism, i don't even think u know what u're talking about. ( and again, atheism doesn't = belief in evolution, so throwing that in as a proof of atheism as a religion makes no sense)

u haven't made one point that made any sense at all. i'm done responding to u, it's like talking to a brick wall. u don't even know what atheism is and u've been told over and over.

atheist: : one who believes that there is no deity

THE END

exactly.
now i understand why i couldn't understand THEM lol. i mean, do i really have to go back and show you the statistics for religion in jail? now who doesn't know the difference between wrong and right?

[Tung]

Peanups

[Peanups]

1. hitler was not an atheist, so what's ur point? i don't get it

2. what is so hard for u to understand? atheism means u don't believe in god. THAT'S IT. THAT'S ALL, THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO IT. atheism does not offer an explanation to how we were created. it's been repeated multiple times in this thread and u can look it up wherever u would like. atheism does not say any such thing about how we were created. so, u're either stupid or u're lying, which one is it?

3. once again, ur apparent lack of understanding for what atheism is.

4. we live by the same things u live by, minus a being in the sky looking over us

5. evolution is a theory and a fact. same thing as with atheism, i don't even think u know what u're talking about. ( and again, atheism doesn't = belief in evolution, so throwing that in as a proof of atheism as a religion makes no sense)

u haven't made one point that made any sense at all. i'm done responding to u, it's like talking to a brick wall. u don't even know what atheism is and u've been told over and over.

atheist: : one who believes that there is no deity

THE END

I find this kind of funny to read. I think it is very reasonable to assume that atheist believe in evolution. There is no other alternate choice unless you choose to believe in,, whatever is good for you? I really don't understand then :/

Anyways, I should change my phrasing. I really can't find a way to make myself clearer. If I can think of better wording I will come back, but all i have is this to change in phrasing:

Evolutionist believe...

Anyways, same can be said to anyone else in the forum. (brick wall statement)

It has been educating talking to you guys. -bows out-