anti- religion, but not anti- faith Options

[deplorable]

i am strongly against religion - it has currupted beliefs.

throughout the years, it is known religious leaders have altered the bible and other religious texts to suit their own need and to insure power over the people; who is to know what is true and what is absolutely fiction

but i am not anti-faith, for my faith in god is strong.

[1angel3]

I agree and since they took out that black people was curse with big lips. Us black people didn't like it but what give them a right to take it out as they please, if its true, we get over it, right?

So for that reason, it made me think a lot, what if they living out some things. There is suppose to be a book on Mary magaline(sp?) I found that out on the History channel. I believe they left it out because they didn't what the women to have an elite role in the church. There is a lot of things I question in the Bible.

[illriginal]

i am strongly against religion - it has currupted beliefs.

throughout the years, it is known religious leaders have altered the bible and other religious texts to suit their own need and to insure power over the people; who is to know what is true and what is absolutely fiction

but i am not anti-faith, for my faith in god is strong.

In all honesty, you don't need religion.

Just have faith in God and obey the laws of God.

The point of religion is to teach of God and his apostles/prophets.

But then religion divided, now we have Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism. When in fact, from my understanding, all these religions were as one. But humans had the audacity to divide it even more, making "sect" or sections of a religion. Only because their current religion didn't fit their life styles.


So all in all, it's good to read all the religious texts, and it's good to be religious as well. But you don't need to be religious, as long as you're faithful.

And I'll be honest with you, I believe in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism.

As of now, my belief system is pantheism. :D

I'm very complex.

[Simba]

Tamacracker, you might actually be worth getting to know.

We're floating on similar boats, which I don't usually see.

[*MyMichelle*]

Memnoch the Devil answers all questions. It is the real Bible.

[xKatt]

It sounds like you need to make your own religion!!

[uninspiredfae]

The point of religion is to teach of God and his apostles/prophets.

But then religion divided, now we have Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism. When in fact, from my understanding, all these religions were as one. But humans had the audacity to divide it even more, making "sect" or sections of a religion. Only because their current religion didn't fit their life styles.

What? Can you explain this part? How are Buddhism and Hinduism involved in this?

[*steve330*]

I thought all the different religions sprouted because they were making the Tower of Babylon or something and God gave them all different languages so that they couldn't complete it because they couldn't communicate with each other.

[uninspiredfae]

So... is that saying Hinduism and Buddhism came from Christianity? Are we talking about history of religion or history of religion as the Bible recounts it?

I'm just trying to understand how exactly Hinduism and Buddhism was "divided" from this "religion" that supposedly to teach people about God, apostles, and prophets.

[xKatt]

But then religion divided, now we have Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism. When in fact, from my understanding, all these religions were as one. But humans had the audacity to divide it even more, making "sect" or sections of a religion. Only because their current religion didn't fit their life styles.

FALSE.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are in the same family, but Buddhism and Hinduism originated independently.

These are some of the notes from the class I'm taking right now.

Hinduism:
- earliest evidence dates back as far as 3000 BCE
- no founder, single teacher, nor prophets
- not a single unified religion
- universal soul or God called Brahman
- Expressions of their God: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva
- existence is a cycle of birth, death and rebirth, governed by Karma
- sacred writings: the Vedas and the Upanishads
- holy city: Varanasi

Buddhism:
- 2,500 years old
- founded by Siddartha Gautama (born 580 BCE) in India
- path to Enlightenment is practice of morality, meditation and wisdom
- atheistic, tolerant toward different beliefs
- change always possible
- all life is interconnected, compassion is natural and important
- no holy cities
- no holy texts

There's a lot more, of course, but those are just the highlights. They have absolutely no connection with any of the references in the Bible.

[Simba]

FALSE.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are in the same family, but Buddhism and Hinduism originated independently.

And yet, Hinduism's (or at least primary Hindu scripture's) teachings aren't so far off from that of the Bible or the Qu'ran. Hindu teachings are in fact older (much older) than Christianity's, so it may actually be that Christianity would be a sprout from Hinduism. Thing is, probably didn't actually "sprout" from Hinduism, but was just a teaching from a different region of the world, rather.

As for Buddhism, it's kind of like Hinduism. Except, Buddhists would worship the sun's energy while Hindus would worship the sun itself. (That's an analogy now, let's not take that literally.)

[Kontroll]

i am strongly against religion - it has currupted beliefs.

throughout the years, it is known religious leaders have altered the bible and other religious texts to suit their own need and to insure power over the people; who is to know what is true and what is absolutely fiction

but i am not anti-faith, for my faith in god is strong.

I partially agree with you. First off all I agree that religion is corrupt. Religion literally means "to bind." Faith is the object people need to keep their focus on.

Secondly, the reason there are so many different sects of religion is because people view things differently. What works for one person doesn't work for another. For instance. I don't believe in talking in tongues like the Pentacostals believe. Religious leaders don't do it to control people, but for their own convictions. If you don't believe it, then don't. They aren't forcing you to come. Plus, the Bible says not to believe any one ignorantly, but find it for yourself. So, you really can't blame it on the religious leaders.

[uninspiredfae]

And yet, Hinduism's (or at least primary Hindu scripture's) teachings aren't so far off from that of the Bible or the Qu'ran. Hindu teachings are in fact older (much older) than Christianity's, so it may actually be that Christianity would be a sprout from Hinduism. Thing is, probably didn't actually "sprout" from Hinduism, but was just a teaching from a different region of the world, rather.

As for Buddhism, it's kind of like Hinduism. Except, Buddhists would worship the sun's energy while Hindus would worship the sun itself. (That's an analogy now, let's not take that literally.)

Really. When you said "teachings", do you mean spiritual teachings or teachings of morals and ethics? If you meant the former, I'd really need you to explain the supposed similarity of the Bible and the Qu'ran not tolerating the worship of many gods and Hinduism and Buddhism allowing worship of many spiritual beings/gods. This is just one difference among many, many others... too many for them to be called similar or "sprout[ing]" from one another. History proves this as well. Do you have any recorded evidence to back your theories?

Yes, I agree that Buddhism is like Hinduism in many aspects (eg. belief in many gods, karma, reincarnation...etc). In fact, Buddha himself was born a Hindu. To say that Buddhism originated independently of Hinduism is incorrect, but I think she meant they originated independently from Islam and Christianity (of course that is a fact seeing how Hinduism is the earliest religion in recored history).

[illriginal]

FALSE.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are in the same family, but Buddhism and Hinduism originated independently.

These are some of the notes from the class I'm taking right now.

Hinduism:
- earliest evidence dates back as far as 3000 BCE
- no founder, single teacher, nor prophets
- not a single unified religion
- universal soul or God called Brahman
- Expressions of their God: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva
- existence is a cycle of birth, death and rebirth, governed by Karma
- sacred writings: the Vedas and the Upanishads
- holy city: Varanasi

Buddhism:
- 2,500 years old
- founded by Siddartha Gautama (born 580 BCE) in India
- path to Enlightenment is practice of morality, meditation and wisdom
- atheistic, tolerant toward different beliefs
- change always possible
- all life is interconnected, compassion is natural and important
- no holy cities
- no holy texts

There's a lot more, of course, but those are just the highlights. They have absolutely no connection with any of the references in the Bible.

WTF is it with you guys and your damn bible slamming. Who said ANYTHING about the Bible making these claims. Or having connections with the Bible?

You guys have a lot of studying to do when it comes to religion as a whole

All religions, INCLUDING Buddhism and Hinduism are related in such ways; spiritual righteousness, enlightenment, divinity, morality etc...

I even did a quick little google search for you:

http://www.geocities.com/cwynne19/doors/dtch02.html

If that's not good enough get the book, "The Science Of Religion"

If you don't want to learn a scientific/historical view of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, then that's fine.

And yet, Hinduism's (or at least primary Hindu scripture's) teachings aren't so far off from that of the Bible or the Qu'ran. Hindu teachings are in fact older (much older) than Christianity's, so it may actually be that Christianity would be a sprout from Hinduism. Thing is, probably didn't actually "sprout" from Hinduism, but was just a teaching from a different region of the world, rather.

As for Buddhism, it's kind of like Hinduism. Except, Buddhists would worship the sun's energy while Hindus would worship the sun itself. (That's an analogy now, let's not take that literally.)

Agreed!

You know how you mentioned the energy of the sun? I meditate to the sun. It's called Sun Gazing. It fills your mind/body/spirit with energy through your eyes. I only do it on sunset

edit: By the way, as of now I'm learning the teachings of
Bahá'u'lláh. Which agrees with all apostles/prophets/divine figures such as: Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad.

What? Can you explain this part? How are Buddhism and Hinduism involved in this?

Ah I see what you meant, you guys thought I was speaking that all religions derive from Abraham :x

As far as Abraham, it's just Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

Then you have Buddhism and Hinduism as religions as well but not of Abraham.

Sorry for not fully explaining myself.

This post has been edited by Arjuna Capulong: Jul 1 2007, 07:20 PM

[uninspiredfae]

Wow, Bible slamming? What's that? Where's that? Why are you so angry? I suppose a person who claims to know so much about religion "as a whole" has the right to be upset that the rest of us are so lacking in this department.

No, that (link) wasn't good enough, but since you sound like you've read the book, why don't you summarize it. Seeing how this is a debate, why don't you lay down the facts for the rest of us idiots (just with a little less anger)?

What part of "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" is similar to the tolerance of worshipping other gods/divine beings? As for the concept of reincarnation... how is that similar to spending eternity in Heaven/Hell?

As for morality, such can be learned for observing humanity at work. What then, is the need/purpose for religion?

You claim that this is a historical and scientific view of religion, yet history shows that at the time that the first religion was created it is geographically impractical (perhaps impossible) for its ideas to disperse to the rest of the world. The idea that religion "as a whole" originated sociologically, does make a lot of sense, but how social were our ancestors? Unless you're saying that people all of a sudden knew there was one god and instinctively began to worship Him, I don't see how the idea of Hinduism (and the idea of the Supreme God) could have spread to the Middle East (and yet gained no followers beyond the borders of India and its bordering countries at that time).

P.S. It's kind of hard to find a book without knowing who wrote it, especially when the book's title is not so unique (for lack of a better word). It sounds good and I want to look into it.



Okay... I just read your newest reply. It makes sense then. Never mind the above.

[*steve330*]

You might want to keep all your posts in one. People here tend to get pissy over double posts, much less triple.

[illriginal]

You might want to keep all your posts in one. People here tend to get pissy over double posts, much less triple.

Yeah sorry bout that, you guys lack an option for multiple quotations. I'm used to the bodybuilding forum and they have a button for multiple quotes.

I actually haven't taken the time to learn how to quote multiple people :x

[uninspiredfae]

You have to do it manualy. Or at least I do.

[Simba]

There are little [+]'s at the bottom right of every post, and you can click those to quote that post. Click those before making your post.

I'll get to the questions and all a little later.

[illriginal]

You have to do it manualy. Or at least I do.

By the way it's not just with this thread about the Bible Slamming, there's quite a few. Slamming it would even be discrediting it. Which this forum generally does almost as a whole.

I respect all religions, think about it. Why do I support Islam and claim to be Muslim when I also stand up for Christianity... heh.

There are little [+]'s at the bottom right of every post, and you can click those to quote that post. Click those before making your post.

I'll get to the questions and all a little later.

lol I'm so blind, that's what we have at our forum too, I never even realized that :x Thank you Brethren

[illriginal]

(-.-) how do I delete a post? Such as this one?

[Simba]

(-.-) how do I delete a post? Such as this one?

Hmm, I think you have to be an Official Member in order to delete your own posts.

[illriginal]

Hmm, I think you have to be an Official Member in order to delete your own posts.

Ah... there's ranks, ok I understand :P

[uninspiredfae]

I respect religion, but I don't have to accept it. I've debated religion since this subforum was formed and I have seen Bible "slamming" as you've said and even participated, but it's usually in response to some fanatic damning non-Christians to Hell for not believing out of the blue. Read the God I, II, and III threads for just a taste of it. I've said this many times, tolerance work both ways. You can't expect a person to be tolerant when the other is cursing their souls to eternal damnation (it's not in human nature to do so). It's rude and it's human nature to be rude right back.

I've also seen ideas being passed around and people learn a lot from these debates. You must realize, not everyone here is out to discredit people. Yes, this is a debate forum, but that doesn't mean we can't share ideas and state our opinions for the heck of it.

People who come into a debate forums like this with preconceived notions that people will automatically try to discredit them won't have fun here. There's been a couple of times that I was cussed at for simply asking an honest question... talk about rude. Anyway... off-topic-ness..

My point is, I DID NOT see Bible slamming in what you quoted so I do not understand your anger.

[xKatt]

Whoa, totally random; Fae, do you remember debating with me ages ago about death penalty? I was like .. uninspiredfae sounds so familiar.

OH!



(I used to be AkaRyuX and then Paradox of Life, always been Katt though)

Oh yeah and @Tamacracker: You need to chill. I'm not slamming the Bible, if you were even directing that at me...

[uninspiredfae]

Oh... HI!!! Haha, it has been ages, as you say. Wow, I didn't recognize the screen name but I remember Katt. Should have put two and two together. I don't remember my password to my Spirited Away account and the password retrieve thing isn't helping me. But yea, bet you haven't seen uninspiredfae in a while... glad you remember and I'm glad you're still around for me to say hi to... so many people are gone.

[xKatt]

Oh... HI!!! Haha, it has been ages, as you say. Wow, I didn't recognize the screen name but I remember Katt. Should have put two and two together. I don't remember my password to my Spirited Away account and the password retrieve thing isn't helping me. But yea, bet you haven't seen uninspiredfae in a while... glad you remember and I'm glad you're still around for me to say hi to... so many people are gone.

Awww. Oh well. I noticed there's lots of new people though. I guess it sort of evens out. I sort of miss the old kids like Jason and his raps ahah, Steven (basick) and Michelle (Azrael). Is Sammi still around? Jeez, those kids were my life.

[uninspiredfae]

I just PMed Sammi to help with my account. She's in the Feedback forum. The last time I was here Anna was staff, but I haven't looked around all that much yet. You know what though, we probably should PM each other... some staff might get all wrinkly if we go off topic. Unless they are a more lenient now as they claim to be in Feedback.

[xKatt]

Oh yeah her name's Anna. Ahahah. I've been gone too long. Too many Michelles on this site...

Okay, I'm going to stop now.

[Simba]

Yeah, I'm going to have to IP ban both of you now.

I've also seen ideas being passed around and people learn a lot from these debates. You must realize, not everyone here is out to discredit people. Yes, this is a debate forum, but that doesn't mean we can't share ideas and state our opinions for the heck of it.

People who come into a debate forums like this with preconceived notions that people will automatically try to discredit them won't have fun here. There's been a couple of times that I was cussed at for simply asking an honest question... talk about rude. Anyway... off-topic-ness..

Word to yo mother.



I might be getting interested in this again; I'm seeing some ideas I don't see pop up back here very often, and this seems like a good group of people to debate with. I would jump in right now, but I'm not really in a critical thinking mindset at the moment. Maybe tomorrow.

[illriginal]

Oh yeah and @Tamacracker: You need to chill. I'm not slamming the Bible, if you were even directing that at me...

I'm not saying any names, I'm saying in general. Not just in this thread, but in a few threads. I wonder how Jews would feel if you guys slammed their holy book. I bet you wouldn't... I bet you wouldn't want to be called Anti-Semitic. Yet some people would have the nerve to be racist against Arabs/Muslims and slam their holy book, if they had an idea, that's Anti-Semitic as well. Anti-Semitic doesn't only pertain to Jews/Israelis.

I respect religion, but I don't have to accept it.

That's fine you respect religion, and people should. But they don't have to. Nor do they have to be religious. To be honest, I don't care if anyone is religious or not. If you're gonna disrespect any aspect of religion, whether it be Jesus, Moses, Buddha, God, the holy books, any relics etc... you're gonna provoke bodily injuries.

You can debate with me, and give me your opinion of what the problem is with religion or the idea of creationism, but don't automatically discredit it, nor belittle it, nor disrespect it. Because the fact is, you don't know for sure.

You can't use a holy book and try to use it in a literal sense. Because from my understanding, not only has the Bible (for example) been re-translated over 100 times in just English alone, but the English has changed as well. On top of that, when English started to become the norm that's when Latin was dying off (at least from my understanding of the history of languages) And Latin was becoming harder to translate. Then you have Ancient English, Old English, and Modern English.

The Bible wasn't even written during the time of Jesus from my understanding as well, but that's still debatable. There's no proof other than from what the Bible has claimed that Jesus in fact was able to write and read. Everything you read in the bible was actually kept in memory, and told by word of mouth. Until finally someone with writing skills wrote word for word (which is impossible) what Jesus said and did.

So even THAT is a controversy.

This was the same with Muhammad, except Muhammad openly admitted and it is known in the Qur'an that he was illiterate. And that he depended on his followers to transcribe word for word what God revealed to him. And every event that they came across. So the Qur'an was authentic in its entirety.

But... Like I said, you don't have to be religious. Nor respect it, you should, but don't have to.
Heck I don't care what any human does with their lives. It's their lives, their souls, not mine
Just don't disrespect my honor, my belief/religion, and definitely not God. Or I'll just be a total dick. Not a little forgiving angel, screw that ideology.

[deplorable]

gosh, thank you tamacracker for being my mouth. you can double post, triple post, quadruple post anytime -- your arguments stand.

and no one here is "bashing the bible" or gods words for that matter by stating their beliefs... the bible was created by mans interpretation of gods word, its not made up of quotes.

[1 John 5:9-13]:

v.9 "We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about His Son.

v. 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart...

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

[uninspiredfae]

I'm a Deist... more humanist, than anything, but I do believe in God. I agree with both creationism and evolution. I'm opened to any possibility as the possibilities are infinite because while people claim to know all, they cannot (unless they are God). And while hardcore believers and hardcore unbelievers will have a problem with that, I don't care. To each his own.

I just didn't appreciate that you were a dick before you knew that about me (I could just be overly sensitive here). I guess that's your way of defending your beliefs, but you're not going to convince anyone of anything by being mean alone. Especially when we all have preconceived notions and we all believe in something already.

That's why so many of us who've been here debating (and arguing) since the begining learned that religion... isn't a good topic for debate unless those who are debating can keep a good head on their shoulders when their beliefs are thrown in the gutter by the next person who thinks his belief is the only right one... etc.

Yeah, I'm going to have to IP ban both of you now.

haha... I knew it!!! LOL.

[sadolakced acid]

what?

is it really?

hello.

[illriginal]

I'm a Deist... more humanist, than anything, but I do believe in God. I agree with both creationism and evolution. I'm opened to any possibility as the possibilities are infinite because while people claim to know all, they cannot (unless they are God). And while hardcore believers and hardcore unbelievers will have a problem with that, I don't care. To each his own.

I just didn't appreciate that you were a dick before you knew that about me (I could just be overly sensitive here). I guess that's your way of defending your beliefs, but you're not going to convince anyone of anything by being mean alone. Especially when we all have preconceived notions and we all believe in something already.

That's why so many of us who've been here debating (and arguing) since the begining learned that religion... isn't a good topic for debate unless those who are debating can keep a good head on their shoulders when their beliefs are thrown in the gutter by the next person who thinks his belief is the only right one... etc.
haha... I knew it!!! LOL.

Yep.. religion is a touchy subject. You should see the Religion/Politics topics in the bodybuilding forum, many people get banned there lol. I try to stay away from that section of the forum :D

[kimmytree]

I'm not saying any names, I'm saying in general. Not just in this thread, but in a few threads. I wonder how Jews would feel if you guys slammed their holy book. I bet you wouldn't... I bet you wouldn't want to be called Anti-Semitic. Yet some people would have the nerve to be racist against Arabs/Muslims and slam their holy book, if they had an idea, that's Anti-Semitic as well. Anti-Semitic doesn't only pertain to Jews/Israelis.

How is "slamming: the Jew's holy book any different than slamming any other religions? I dont get it. And I'm part Jewish.

The Bible wasn't even written during the time of Jesus from my understanding as well, but that's still debatable. There's no proof other than from what the Bible has claimed that Jesus in fact was able to write and read. Everything you read in the bible was actually kept in memory, and told by word of mouth. Until finally someone with writing skills wrote word for word (which is impossible) what Jesus said and did.

Thats true, from what I remember... the first book written was Matthew, and it was written hundreds of years after Jesus. And I think ALL of the books following it were influenced by it (or the first few books of the New Testament).

[illriginal]

How is "slamming: the Jew's holy book any different than slamming any other religions? I dont get it. And I'm part Jewish.

Because I realize in American society, anyone who slanders the Jews, their religion, or their Holy Book(s) get slammed to death by the rest of the world because of "Antisemitism" But then like the typical hypocrites that America is, they use their freedom of speech to slander Islam and Christianity.

If you want to get technical all those of Abraham are Semitic. The origins of their religion are of Arabic. Anti Arabic = Anti-Semitic. Unless I'm mistaken... but I'm pretty sure I'm not :)

Why do you think there isn't a thread in this forum slamming the Torah, Talmud (specially the Talmud), nor the Kabbalah?

[kimmytree]

^ I think I misread what you said, I didnt realize that you were including other religions along with Judaism. Sorry about that!

Oh, I've never really noticed that. I dont think people get bashed for hating on the Jews any more than they do with any other religion.

America doesnt really "slander" Christianity. We definitely slander other religions though, especially ones found in the Middle East.

[illriginal]

America doesnt really "slander" Christianity. We definitely slander other religions though, especially ones found in the Middle East.

Well that's the thing, they use their right of free of speach to slander Christianity. And no one protests nor asks for them to stop the bashing.

And as from my witnessing, people get it bad when they even disrespect just one form of Judaism without generalizing :x

[kimmytree]

^ Huh? People dont bash Christianity that much here.

Yeah, I hate it when people are like that. Just out of curiosity, are you Jewish? lol.

[illriginal]

^ Huh? People dont bash Christianity that much here.

Yeah, I hate it when people are like that. Just out of curiosity, are you Jewish? lol.

Technically, I'm everything. I follow all authentic religions. But you could just call me a pantheist :)

[uninspiredfae]

Well that's the thing, they use their right of free of speach to slander Christianity. And no one protests nor asks for them to stop the bashing.

And as from my witnessing, people get it bad when they even disrespect just one form of Judaism without generalizing :x

Just to make what you said a non-bias statement, because while I agree with you, that claim is only half of the pie. Christians use the same right to free speech to slander non-believers and as an excuse for bigotry. It's not like they're denigraded for being a loving neighbor.

[kimmytree]

Technically, I'm everything. I follow all authentic religions. But you could just call me a pantheist :)

Well, that's good. I'm Agnostic, but I somewhat still feel a connection with Christianity and Judaism, due to my family's heritage.

[illriginal]

Just to make what you said a non-bias statement, because while I agree with you, that claim is only half of the pie. Christians use the same right of free speech to slander non-believers and as an excuse for bigotry. It's not like they're denigraded for being a loving neighbor.

Oh no, don't get me wrong, every fundamentalist of any religion (not so much Buddhist and Hindus) will always have to say something about non-believers and use the freedom of speech card :P

[uninspiredfae]

Right. Just so we, and any gullible passerby, are clear on that fact =)