god, part 2 Options

[*CEP*]

So yeah...the debate continues.. have fun.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[abberdabber]

this goes out to FAE.. so here ya go.

**Is God all powerful in the sense of giving miracles?**

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

you tell me.



***What of people who do not believe in God? The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in them, does that mean they're immoral then? I'm confused.
Wow. So everything is black and white, no shades of gray in between? No exceptions? And you said that someone else was closed minded?
Does God believe in exceptions, I wonder? All the good that non-believers do is in vain, and yet non-believers will continue to do good. I wonder why? What strives non-believers, do you know?
There isn't a Holy Spirit in them to guide non-believers to the right decisions, so that means GOOD non-believers are virtuous people in essence. Will God turn away virtuous people even though they do not believe? ***

Mark 7:20-23

".. What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, jewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these eveils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'..."

If that comes from all men, EVERYONE sins, if everyone sins, then no matter how 'Virtuous' you are, without forgiveness, you will go to hell.

***You mean David and Goliath (a simple example) isn't a story? My Christian friend gave me copies of some things to read when I was in junior high. I found them highly entertaining and that it teaches lessons of virtues, which is a good thing. But like I said, it's not anything I don't already know.***

When in that whole paragraph did I say that the bible DOESNT have stories in it? I said that the Bible isnt simply a storybook. The Bible is, however, a book made for instruction.

***And what of those who do not read the Bible? Are you saying that they do not have their lives mapped out? Or maybe that they're lost? It doesn't seem like that's the case with me or any other agnostics I know in real life.
But I understand that not everyone think the same way. ***

Thats the difference between the followers and the NON-believers, Everyone in this world lives their life as if they have to achieve personal satisfaction.. its a ME world, everyone trying to succeed. Whereas in the christian perspective, you give your life over to Christ. You let God lead your way, and let Him use you to glorify His name. Yes the people that try to lead their own lives are walkin in the dark, its basically luck of the draw. They don't know if what they're getting themselves into will end up good or bad, whereas with Christ, you're always in safe hands.



***Yes, there are many great proverbs and teachings from the Bible, I will not argue against that. But other religions teaches those same lessons as well. There's nothing from the Bible that I can't get from other religions, or from learning the lesson myself in real life. ***

The difference between Our religion and all of the others is that our GOD is living. Jesus Christ Rose from the dead, and will come back to save us.

Matthew 17: 22
"... When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.'... "

You mock us as christians now, but when the wrath of Heaven rains down, It's not going to be us you have to face. You will have to look GOD in the eyes and explain your actions..

Revelation 7:15-17

"... 'They are before the throne of GOD and serve him night and day in His temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the lamb at the center of the throne will be their shephard, he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.' .. "


gosh dangit, i messed up the whole quote thing. oh well the *** are what she said.

[ryfitaDF]

this goes out to FAE.. so here ya go.

**Is God all powerful in the sense of giving miracles?**

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass.  So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

  you tell me.

that's like asking a cowboy's fan who's gunna win the superbowl. quoting the bible to defend god. don't make sense. convincing somone with what they believe is a lie already. good job.

[iheartsimba]

this goes out to FAE.. so here ya go.

**Is God all powerful in the sense of giving miracles?**

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

you tell me.



***What of people who do not believe in God? The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in them, does that mean they're immoral then? I'm confused.
Wow. So everything is black and white, no shades of gray in between? No exceptions? And you said that someone else was closed minded?
Does God believe in exceptions, I wonder? All the good that non-believers do is in vain, and yet non-believers will continue to do good. I wonder why? What strives non-believers, do you know?
There isn't a Holy Spirit in them to guide non-believers to the right decisions, so that means GOOD non-believers are virtuous people in essence. Will God turn away virtuous people even though they do not believe? ***

Mark 7:20-23

".. What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, jewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these eveils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'..."

If that comes from all men, EVERYONE sins, if everyone sins, then no matter how 'Virtuous' you are, without forgiveness, you will go to hell.

***You mean David and Goliath (a simple example) isn't a story? My Christian friend gave me copies of some things to read when I was in junior high. I found them highly entertaining and that it teaches lessons of virtues, which is a good thing. But like I said, it's not anything I don't already know.***

When in that whole paragraph did I say that the bible DOESNT have stories in it? I said that the Bible isnt simply a storybook. The Bible is, however, a book made for instruction.

***And what of those who do not read the Bible? Are you saying that they do not have their lives mapped out? Or maybe that they're lost? It doesn't seem like that's the case with me or any other agnostics I know in real life.
But I understand that not everyone think the same way. ***

Thats the difference between the followers and the NON-believers, Everyone in this world lives their life as if they have to achieve personal satisfaction.. its a ME world, everyone trying to succeed. Whereas in the christian perspective, you give your life over to Christ. You let God lead your way, and let Him use you to glorify His name. Yes the people that try to lead their own lives are walkin in the dark, its basically luck of the draw. They don't know if what they're getting themselves into will end up good or bad, whereas with Christ, you're always in safe hands.



***Yes, there are many great proverbs and teachings from the Bible, I will not argue against that. But other religions teaches those same lessons as well. There's nothing from the Bible that I can't get from other religions, or from learning the lesson myself in real life. ***

The difference between Our religion and all of the others is that our GOD is living. Jesus Christ Rose from the dead, and will come back to save us.

Matthew 17: 22
"... When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.'... "

You mock us as christians now, but when the wrath of Heaven rains down, It's not going to be us you have to face. You will have to look GOD in the eyes and explain your actions..

Revelation 7:15-17

"... 'They are before the throne of GOD and serve him night and day in His temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the lamb at the center of the throne will be their shephard, he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.' .. "


gosh dangit, i messed up the whole quote thing. oh well the *** are what she said.

hm. so you are trying to convince poeple to beleive in god...by using the bible? that makes no sense

[abberdabber]

LoL .. Well you guys obviously didnt read back to the previous posts did you ? didnt think so If you're going to quote someone at least know whats goin on..

**convincing somone with what they believe is a lie already. good job.**

Well maybe if I was trying to convince anyone of anything, I would be worried about making sense to all of you.. but im not.. the decision is all on you

[*CEP*]

LoL .. Well you guys obviously didnt read back to the previous posts did you ? didnt think so If you're going to quote someone at least know whats goin on..

**convincing somone with what they believe is a lie already. good job.**

Well maybe if I was trying to convince anyone of anything, I would be worried about making sense to all of you.. but im not.. the decision is all on you

Then exactly WHAT are you trying to do then?

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[abberdabber]

* this will be the last entry submitted *

fae wanted to know those snippets of questions, "where do un-believers go if they've been good?, Does God create miracles?, are un-believers that dont read the word immoral people?, ect*
and i simply told her the viewpoint in which i hold on such questions.

[queen]

just wondering.. have any of you ever read the book "the da vinci code"? you'd learn quite a lot of christian history from it ;x i actually found a site that has a segment from the book. feel free to read about deconstructing christianity

[princess2113]

just wondering.. have any of you ever read the book "the da vinci code"? you'd learn quite a lot of christian history from it ;x i actually found a site that has a segment from the book. feel free to read about deconstructing christianity

not everything in that book matches the Bible so u mite wanna check the Bible to see.....

oh and NONE of the Christians here want to convince anyone of anything we r trying to tell u abt Him...if u had read ANY of the other pages u'd prolly see that b/c its like the 100th time ive said it

[queen]

not everything in that book matches the Bible so u mite wanna check the Bible to see.....

oh and NONE of the Christians here want to convince anyone of anything we r trying to tell u abt Him...if u had read ANY of the other pages u'd prolly see that b/c its like the 100th time ive said it

what's with the attitude? lol. i was just introducing a different & neutral point here. and of course not everything in that book matches the bible.. er?! did you read my post at all?! haha.. it's not supposed to match ANYTHING haha.. you're way confusing ;o. the bible is symbolic.. whatever's written in there may or may not be true, so YOU might wanna check REALITY.

and did i say any of the christians here are trying to convince anyone of anything? lol. i spent a whole damn hour on that last thread.. so YES, i've been keeping up with what's going on. i have no idea wtheck your point is. i'm just getting frustrated vibes from you lol.

the reason i brought it up is because i kept on seeing posts about jesus and divinity. the specific segment i showed talks about how jesus's "divinity" may have come into being... which is why i'm asking if any of you have ever read the book to see what your response to it was. apparently all i'm getting from you is "it's not in the bible so it's not true"... talk about closed mindedness.

[princess2113]

what's with the attitude? lol. i was just introducing a different & neutral point here. and of course not everything in that book matches the bible.. er?! did you read it at all?! haha.. it's not supposed to match ANYTHING haha.. you're way confusing ;o. the bible is symbolic.. whatever's written in there may or may not be true, so YOU might wanna check REALITY.

and did i say any of the christians here are trying to convince anyone of anything? lol. i spent a whole damn hour on that last thread.. so YES, i've been keeping up with what's going on. i have no idea wtheck your point is. i'm just getting frustrated vibes from you lol.

the reason i brought it up is because i kept on seeing posts about jesus and divinity. the specific segment i showed talks about how jesus's "divinity" even came into being... which is why i'm asking if any of you have ever read the book to see what your response to it was. apparently all i'm getting from you is "it's not in the bible so it's not true"... talk about closed mindedness.

i wasnt talking to u in that bottom part i was talking to the ppl that keep saying we r trying to convert them b/c its annoying

i read through abt half im not done yet

[*CEP*]

just wondering.. have any of you ever read the book "the da vinci code"? you'd learn quite a lot of christian history from it ;x i actually found a site that has a segment from the book. feel free to read about deconstructing christianity

Notice that the book is fiction.
It even says so in the first pages.
Said something about how the whole book is fiction, but the places aren't.

Now, what you're doing is getting a piece of literary fiction to combat another piece of fiction.

That's not gonna get you anywhere.
And before you bash me about how I've never read the book, I've read it twice. I own it. I own all four of Dan Brown's books. But I would never think that they would be real. Have you read Cracking Da Vinci's Code?

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[IIO__oII]

u guys should read MERE CHRISTIANITY..
=]

PS...chinkieeyedpnoi..i love ure aviator. its cute

[GinaDaQueen]

I haven't really read the other topic but from the responses here, it feels like the non-Christians are kind of annoyed because it seems like the Christians are trying to force their religions down their throats. But, it shouldn't be like that. Christians are just there in order to enlighten you of their beliefs. It's not some sort of cult where our (yes, I'm a Christian) power comes from brainwashing members and forcing them to do things. Christians were created to share God's story, and let you guys decide for yourselves whether it's true or not. That's the beauty of it. God have us free will. He lets us choose to do whatever we want. And it's natural of us to quote the Bible and use our resources, sort of like a lawyer would try to gather evidence to prove his case. We're like the lawyers, we put the facts out there and you as judges/jury are supposed to sift through fact or fiction and dtermine who makes the better case.

Of course, some non-Christians think we're know-it-alls because we say our religion is the only right one, but it's the same with doctors. If you were really sick, and a doctor told you to take Medicine A and it's the only way to survive, would you not take it because you think that the doctor is just lying for his own sake? No. You have to have fatih that the medicine will work, or that God exists. We're telling you that our "medicine" works. Now whether you take it or not is up to you.

[easilyxamusedx]

nicely said.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

I honestly don't see how you can't believe in God. Look around you. The world couldn't have been an accident. The human body alone is so complicated that it couldn't have happened randomly. People think that you have science or you have God. Well, from the little I know of science it's made me think that God made science.

Evolution is pretty evident. I think it's safe to say that humans did evolve from organisms from the sea. Well, did you know that ice should sink? If ice sank we never would have evolved. There's no logical reason for it to float though. It's perfectly happy with floating. You tell me, is it a conicidence that ice floats? Because there is absolutly no reason for it to do so.

I just don't see why you can't believe in God. Open up a bit, He's there.

[CrimsonArchangel]

I haven't really read the other topic but from the responses here, it feels like the non-Christians are kind of annoyed because it seems like the Christians are trying to force their religions down their throats. But, it shouldn't be like that. Christians are just there in order to enlighten you of their beliefs. It's not some sort of cult where our (yes, I'm a Christian) power comes from brainwashing members and forcing them to do things. Christians were created to share God's story, and let you guys decide for yourselves whether it's true or not. That's the beauty of it. God have us free will. He lets us choose to do whatever we want. And it's natural of us to quote the Bible and use our resources, sort of like a lawyer would try to gather evidence to prove his case. We're like the lawyers, we put the facts out there and you as judges/jury are supposed to sift through fact or fiction and dtermine who makes the better case.

Of course, some non-Christians think we're know-it-alls because we say our religion is the only right one, but it's the same with doctors. If you were really sick, and a doctor told you to take Medicine A and it's the only way to survive, would you not take it because you think that the doctor is just lying for his own sake? No. You have to have fatih that the medicine will work, or that God exists. We're telling you that our "medicine" works. Now whether you take it or not is up to you.

Well said.
But, even as a christian myself, I will say that there are some people here that are trying to convince others by ramming their beliefs down their throats and by using the Bible and what not.
Yes, the Bible is a source of truth, and no, it is not fiction, Chinkie. And, no, I can't prove it to you. Its a thing of faith and watching the history channel (They have proved many of the stories from the bible)
But I can tell you something I found online that uses science to prove the bible. I will look for the link again (comp crashed, and I lost it) for those who want to read the whole thing.
NASA scientists were trying to figure out on what orbit to put new satellites to prevent planet crashes and all that. IN order to do that, they placed a lot of info (don't really remember what, sorry...) into computers to sort of predict where the planets would be in fifty to one hundred years. So they placed all the info into the computers and let them run. All was going well until the computers just stopped. Technically, all was in good order, but the computers kept on giving an error message. Then, after more research, the techs found out that the computers gave the error message because they said there was a day missing in the time frame. Of course, no one thought that was possible, but among the techs there was a christian man. He told them that in the Bible, there was the story of Joshua. He was in a battle that seemed to be going the wrong way for him, so he asked God to stop the sun so he could have more time to fight and perhaps win (To those who might be interested and have access to a Bible, the story starts in JOshua 10 verse 12). As I was saying, God granted Joshua's request and he stopped the sun for almost a hole day. The techs were skeptic at first, but gave it a try. They placed that new info into the computers and alas, 23 hours and 20 minutes came back into the time frame. But of course, there were still forty minutes missing. This is when the christian guy came back. There is another story in the bible where a king asked God to give him a sign that he (the king) was going to be well (he was very sick), and the sign God gave him was the retreat of the shadow on a sun dial. The shadow retreated 10 degrees, which were the forty minutes that were missing. (Where that story is found scapes my mind. I'll have to get back to you on that one...).
So the techs placed that new info into the computers and the error messages dissapeared. The missing day was found.
Now, after that long-ass entry, haha, I didn't write this to try to prove anything, or try to shove anything down people's throats. I wrote it to show that perhaps with a little research, you can find many things that do explain events in history using both science and God. Science is *not* a bad thing! God created it for us to become enlightened and learn more. Some scientists just take it to a whole new level. Thats all.
*Whew...* I'm done, haha.

[queen]

it wasn't a question whether the book was true or false, just as the bible may have been true or false. i said "christian history", which i should have quoted in the first place, simply because the da vinci code provides a different view of history as the one provided in the bible. it may be fiction vs. fiction, but that's the point. the book was supposed to be "based on research", just as the bible was based on "true accounts" - although most of the things said in the conversations were, shall i say "exaggerated"? lol. again, the reason i brought it up is because i kept on seeing posts about jesus and divinity. the specific segment i showed talks about how jesus's "divinity" may have come into being, just as in the bible he may have performed miracles. there are people out there who actually believe in this book, just as there are people who believe in aliens & ghosts. the existence or non existence of god is just one of those things. i simply wanted a reaction.

i have not read cracking da vinci's code, but i've read a few chapters from the da vinci hoax, which my friend owns haha. i have not finished it, so my thoughts on it might still be blurred. anyway, here is a passage (specifically in response to the excerpt from the da vinci code:

The Council of Nicaea did not define that Jesus, the Son of God, was divine (since that was accepted by all Christians) but addressed the issue of the exact relationship between the Son and the Father: Are they equal? One in substance? Two Persons? The Council specifically addressed and condemned the popular heresy of that time, called Arianism, which insisted that the Son was a lesser god, created by the Father at some point in time and not eternally existent.

...basically leading to the holy trinity, in which the son, the father, and the holy spirit are one god. it established one god. i'm just trying to make others see it from a different standpoint: how do you just 'accept' christ's divinity without question? i guess the question i should have asked in the first place is "what made you believe in god" rather than "why do you believe in god". yes, it's two different questions. i'm looking for how you started believing in him in the first place. if you were raised in a different city/country by different parents, would it have affected your faith?

and to princess2113: i read the post, sorry for the misunderstandin' ;]

[Spirited Away]

gosh dangit, i messed up the whole quote thing. oh well the *** are what she said.

Yes, it was kind of complicated to read all that.

Just so you know, biblical quote do not impress me. I'm a person who likes answers from people's hearts, not from what they learned from others how things should be.

Anyway, let us continue:

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass.  So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

I'm sure the same generosity and power would have been much appreciated by the Jews during the Holocaust.

If you tell me that it is because that the Jews are Jews and not Christains that God did not help them, then I would think that God discriminates.

Mark 7:20-23

".. What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, jewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these eveils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'..." 

If that comes from all men, EVERYONE sins, if everyone sins, then no matter how 'Virtuous' you are, without forgiveness, you will go to hell.

Are you saying that if I only think of deceiving someone, but never act the deed, then I'm still 'uncleaned'? That's pretty strange to me. If a hungry, starving child is thinking about stealing food for his sick mother, but then he didn't do it because his mother told him stealing was bad and he doesn't do the deed. Is he still uncleaned to you?

I would call that child a very virtuous child, and he would deserve to go to Heaven more than anyone of us.

When in that whole paragraph did I say that the bible DOESNT have stories in it? I said that the Bible isnt simply a storybook. The Bible is, however, a book made for instruction.

When did I say that that you said the Bibles doesn't have stories? I was merely asking you a question. Instructions of morality I already know but would read for entertainment, but if you're refering to instructions about how to serve God, then that I do not need.

Thats the difference between the followers and the NON-believers, Everyone in this world lives their life as if they have to achieve personal satisfaction.. its a ME world, everyone trying to succeed. Whereas in the christian perspective, you give your life over to Christ. You let God lead your way, and let Him use you to glorify His name. Yes the people that try to lead their own lives are walkin in the dark, its basically luck of the draw. They don't know if what they're getting themselves into will end up good or bad, whereas with Christ, you're always in safe hands.

Why would God create us and give us free will knowing that we will sin and then ridding Himself of sinners? Interesting. Are you saying those things about non-believers from experience? Because I can tell you now, that I know I'm more 'in the light' than most people. Maybe it's just my pride.

I don't know what will happen in life, but I'm sure as heck not going to cower in fear of the future, as there is no need to be. You trust your life in God's hands, while I trust my life in my hands. I try do so virtuously, not comitting evils. If your God will condem me for that, than I have nothing more to say.

Hehe, I will die as a martyr to non-believers. Let it be a lesson that no matter what good you do in life, God will forsaken you if you do not believe in Him.

You still haven't really answered me. What do you think strive non-believers to do good deeds? For their self-esteme? Surely you have faith in God's children more than that.

The difference between Our religion and all of the others is that our GOD is living. Jesus Christ Rose from the dead, and will come back to save us. 

If He rose from the dead, then why does He needs to "come back"?

You mock us as christians now, but when the wrath of Heaven rains down, It's not going to be us you have to face. You will have to look GOD in the eyes and explain your actions.. 

Know that I do not mock you for being a Christian. Sometimes, I feel like you guys are mocking yourselves.

But like I said, I do not fear Heaven's wrath, I will die happy knowing that I've done good.

So now you say that I will face God. Earlier in the debate, someone told me that I'll never have a chance to face God because he cannot abide sinners to be near Him. But I'm not ashamed to meet your God because I'm sure I can explain myself. (EDIT:: I so feel like I'm going to get flamed for that statement... but it's okay, me=future martyr remember?)

[machinoman]

I just saw Saved! and it was great.

"Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks your an a-hole."

[abberdabber]

[QUOTE=uninspiredfae,Jun 12 2004, 7:16 PM]

Just so you know, biblical quote do not impress me. I'm a person who likes answers from people's hearts, not from what they learned from others how things should be.

Well, biblical quotes are from my heart, and from what you told me before you yourself were taught by your parents, just because you dont consider God my Father doesnt mean He hasnt been my teacher. It shouldnt matter where or how I attained my education, just that I have one, and though you dont consider the word of God a so-called 'answer' to your questions, you of all people should know that I am going to use my resources. I thought we were taught to put our knowledge to use in different situations from day to day?


I'm sure the same generosity and power would have been much appreciated by the Jews during the Holocaust.  If you tell me that it is because that the Jews are Jews and not Christains that God did not help them, then I would think that God discriminates.


As I said before, out of men come evil, that is obvious, when people are not  obediant in God's word, then it's evident that evil will arise. It's in our nature. But who are we to tell God how to punish or stop it from happening. I can't answer for all of the horrible things that have happened in this world, How or why bad things happen to good people, but I do know that it's not our place. We have to have faith that God's judement will rein through evil.
as it says in Isaiah 14:3

"... On the day the Lord gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
  How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! The lord has broken the rod of the wicked..."

and all of the people that have been hurt and wronged, God will right it all when the day comes



Are you saying that if I only think of deceiving someone, but never act the deed, then I'm still 'uncleaned'? That's pretty strange to me. If a hungry, starving child is thinking about stealing food for his sick mother, but then he didn't do it because his mother told him stealing was bad and he doesn't do the deed. Is he still uncleaned to you?
I would call that child a very virtuous child, and he would deserve to go to Heaven more than anyone of us.

Isaiah 53:6
"...6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all..."
We all sin, as I have said numerous times, the boy would not be 'unclean' because he had thoughts of doing wrong.
as it says in mattew 18:3-6

"...I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes on of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea..."

You see? God looks at children as innocent, they do not have the same so-called responsibilites .. therefore are looked at entirely different than an adult.


When did I say that that you said the Bibles doesn't have stories? I was merely asking you a question. Instructions of morality I already know but would read for entertainment, but if you're refering to instructions about how to serve God, then that I do not need.

Well, you've made that clear, as a non-believer, of course you won't feel the sudden urge to read your word. As a christian, the Bible is my life. And a book in which I place my complete faith.



Why would God create us and give us free will knowing that we will sin and then ridding Himself of sinners? Interesting. Are you saying those things about non-believers from experience? Because I can tell you now, that I know I'm more 'in the light' than most people. Maybe it's just my pride.

God created us to worship Him, and to glorify Him.. but to truly love him, we had to have free will. It wouldnt be true love if He made us so that we required or programmed, to do such things automatically and without choice, we would be worshipping out of obligation rather than true love as God desires. he rids Himself of 'sinners' because they arent obedient as He would have hoped they would become on their own.

I don't know what will happen in life, but I'm sure as heck not going to cower in fear of the future, as there is no need to be. You trust your life in God's hands, while I trust my life in my hands. I try do so virtuously, not comitting evils. If your God will condem me for that, than I have nothing more to say.

God doesnt condemn anyone for living life. He does, however, condemn the disobediant, to get into heaven you have to believe .. you have to partake in God's plan for your life, otherwise you're just another person in this world. You have to live your life by faith, giving it all to God, knowing that no matter what, He'll pull you through. No matter how hard you try to 'not commit any evils' .. we all sin. like ive said a bazillion times, its our nature to be evil. And without repentance, we will go to hell.

Hehe, I will die as a martyr to non-believers. Let it be a lesson that no matter what good you do in life, God will forsaken you if you do not believe in Him.

No, God will 'foresaken' you for sinning. Pride is a sin, and no matter how good you think you've been, you need forgiveness.

Proverbs 6:17-19
"...There are six things the LORD hates, seven that He finds detestable:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers..."

any of these things will send you to hell, many things go on inside of the heart of men..

You still haven't really answered me. What do you think strive non-believers to do good deeds? For their self-esteme? Surely you have faith in God's children more than that.

You know, I really dont believe that people (non believers) know what they are missing out on.. some dont even know anything about the glory of God. They strive to be 'good people' because growing up .. we are taught to be 'good' at least some of us are. I think that people dont want to be 'bad' they just get lost in lust and sin.. and don't realize that they dont have to go through pain, or sorrow, or even confusion.. they dont understand what it's like to be able to put your hands in the air and shout "I GIVE UP!" and give all of their worries to the LORD.

If He rose from the dead, then why does He needs to "come back"?

First of all, understand that Jesus was crucified, not only to wash us in His blood, but as a sign, to all of us, that all of the prophets that had prophesied about Jesus Christ, were true. You see, without miraculous things happening, people dont believe. People need proof, and God was giving it to us. The fact that Jesus had performed so many miracles wasnt enough .. He had to have something amazing happen. He had told His disciples that He would be crucified, then rise on the third day. Along with raising others from the dead, Jesus was a man of the 'impossible'
God has to wait, until He has an army of unbudge-able people. as it says in

matthew 13:29

"... 'No,' He answered, 'because while you are pullin the wees, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time i will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it in to my barn'... " 

I'm sure you realize that this is a parable that Jesus was giving His disciples regarding the world. He is trying to say that satan is going to have a hold on people that let him, that no matter how hard God tries to rid the earth of the 'weeds' .. with free will, there will always be people that rebel.


But like I said, I do not fear Heaven's wrath, I will die happy knowing that I've done good.

How? how have you done good? I'm not asking these things to seem like a 'smart-alek'.. but do you ever wonder what it would be like to have eternal peace? To never have to wonder about your future, or where you're going? Knowing that no matter the circumstance, God will be right there by your side. That these things arent in your hands anymore..that God is in complete control? I just cant imagine being happy sitting in a mud puddle when there's an ocean just waiting for you to jump into..

[Spirited Away]

[quote=abberdabber,Jun 13 2004, 3:47 AM] Well, biblical quotes are from my heart, and from what you told me before you yourself were taught by your parents, just because you dont consider God my Father doesnt mean He hasnt been my teacher.


[/quote]
So things that you speak from the heart comes from a Book. I suppose that's understandable...

[quote]It shouldnt matter where or how I attained my education, just that I have one, and though you dont consider the word of God a so-called 'answer' to your questions, you of all people should know that I am going to use my resources. I thought we were taught to put our knowledge to use in different situations from day to day? [/quote]

Sure, learning and applying knowledge is one thing, but I thought it's funny how all most Christians do is give quotes from the 'Big Book' to answer everyone's questions. It's like memorizing lines from a play or copying someone word for word, nothing to be impressed about because any child can do just that. It's almost like, plagiarism.

[quote]As I said before, out of men come evil, that is obvious, when people are not  obediant in God's word, then it's evident that evil will arise. [/quote]
You're confusing me yet again. Are you saying that Man is born evil?

[quote]It's in our nature. But who are we to tell God how to punish or stop it from happening. I can't answer for all of the horrible things that have happened in this world, How or why bad things happen to good people, but I do know that it's not our place. We have to have faith that God's judement will rein through evil. [/quote]

It's not our place to judge those things, but it is in our place to do something about it instead of crying to God. As you can see, no matter how much they (Jews) were suffering, God seemed to have closed His eyes to it all. Was it because of who they are? Are Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions any less of a human than Christians?


[quote]and all of the people that have been hurt and wronged, God will right it all when the day comes[/quote]

You mean God will right the wrongs done to Christians. He will still forsake GOOD non-believers because of who they are and who they chose to be.

[quote]You see? God looks at children as innocent, they do not have the same so-called responsibilites .. therefore are looked at entirely different than an adult. [/quote]

I see, so children, no matter how virtuous or corrupted will still be considered as innocents? While good adults, still 'children' in God's eyes (His children), will suffer the full blown punishments. In that, I see that God discriminates people in different age groups.

[quote]Well, you've made that clear, as a non-believer, of course you won't feel the sudden urge to read your word. As a christian, the Bible is my life. And a book in which I place my complete faith. [/quote]

When was that? I would like to see how you cam to that conclusion. Perhaps I need to further explain myself. I understand the importance of the Bible to Christians, but it was the Bible that the Church waved in front of people to discredit Galileo and his disagreement with a 'flat earth'.

[quote]God created us to worship Him, and to glorify Him.. but to truly love him, we had to have free will. It wouldnt be true love if He made us so that we required or programmed, to do such things automatically and without choice, we would be worshipping out of obligation rather than true love as God desires. he rids Himself of 'sinners' because they arent obedient as He would have hoped they would become on their own. [/quote]

I still don't understand. He gave us free will to love Him? Can you not hear the hypocrisy in it? If He expects us to love him in the first place, then why give us free will? You have free will to love or not to love Him, but if you choose the latter, you will suffer for eternity. Those are not very good choices to choose from: I would have to force myself to love Him or else I would be condemed.

[quote]God doesnt condemn anyone for living life. He does, however, condemn the disobediant, to get into heaven you have to believe .. you have to partake in God's plan for your life, otherwise you're just another person in this world. You have to live your life by faith, giving it all to God, knowing that no matter what, He'll pull you through. No matter how hard you try to 'not commit any evils' .. we all sin. like ive said a bazillion times, its our nature to be evil. And without repentance, we will go to hell. [/quote]

He condems those who uses the true meaning of 'free will' and free will, in essence, means disobidence.

There are different levels of sins, however, God will make all sins tantamount to each other. I do not think that's fair. Even in the court system, there are different levels of punishment for different crimes, depending on how severe. We mortals perceive the different levels of punishments, and yet God will see all sins as sins.

[quote]No, God will 'foresaken' you for sinning. Pride is a sin, and no matter how good you think you've been, you need forgiveness. [/quote]

I only seek forgiveness in myself. Even if God will forgive me for accidentally killing someone, I will not be able to forgive myself for their loss.

It's so easy for people to kill someone and then be forgiven by God. Remember the Crusades? The slaughtering of 'heathens' were justified by Christians' belief in God's forgiveness. They killed in His name. I suppose that's due to 'evils', but you see, they were Christians, much like yourself. Of course, God will forgive you because you believe in Him. I understand.

[quote]You know, I really dont believe that people (non believers) know what they are missing out on.. some dont even know anything about the glory of God. [/quote]

That's an opinion.

[quote]They strive to be 'good people' because growing up .. we are taught to be 'good' at least some of us are. I think that people dont want to be 'bad' they just get lost in lust and sin.. and don't realize that they dont have to go through pain, or sorrow, or even confusion.. they dont understand what it's like to be able to put your hands in the air and shout "I GIVE UP!" and give all of their worries to the LORD.[/quote]

A person will only fail when he/she gives up.

That's true, I was taught to be good. However, being bad can bring satisfaction just as well. I can be good to my family and friends and then cheat strangers, and I will still have the love that I need and gain profits at the same time. But even I know that doing so will destroy my conscience. I don't think of God when I do things to benefit other people, I to have a peaceful life. It's a selfish thing to do, and probably is a sin, but this sin will benefit other people.

[quote]Christ, were true. You see, without miraculous things happening, people dont believe. People need proof, and God was giving it to us. The fact that Jesus had performed so many miracles wasnt enough .. He had to have something amazing happen. He had told His disciples that He would be crucified, then rise on the third day. Along with raising others from the dead, Jesus was a man of the 'impossible'
God has to wait, until He has an army of unbudge-able people. as it says in [/quote]

People need proof today, more than ever. The evils of the world is escalating day by day... we need miracles now and not until it's too late.

[quote]I'm sure you realize that this is a parable that Jesus was giving His disciples regarding the world. He is trying to say that satan is going to have a hold on people that let him, that no matter how hard God tries to rid the earth of the 'weeds' .. with free will, there will always be people that rebel. [/quote]

Do you consider me as someone who has let Satan control my actions? Or perhaps a rebel? There are non-Christians who waver in life, confused between good and evil, but there are some who will be true to themselves until the very end. I do not rebel against God because He hasn't given me reason to. To me, if His believers do good for society, I have no qualms about it.

With the world plunging into decadence, there is need for something 'good'. If that good be God, then let it be.

[quote]How? how have you done good? I'm not asking these things to seem like a 'smart-alek'.. but do you ever wonder what it would be like to have eternal peace? [/quote]

I've done good because I'm a person of morals, though I will be off course at times it is in human nature to do so. Eternal peace will mean nothing without peace of mind. To me doing bad things will not give me peace, therefore I strive to do good things. Once more I would like to point out that it is a selfish motive, but one that would benefit others.

[quote]To never have to wonder about your future, or where you're going? Knowing that no matter the circumstance, God will be right there by your side. That these things arent in your hands anymore..that God is in complete control? I just cant imagine being happy sitting in a mud puddle when there's an ocean just waiting for you to jump into..[/quote]

It is an opinion.

I don't feel as if I'm sitting in a mud puddle, but rather I feel free because I am doing things that will bring me peace of mind.

[princess2113]

[QUOTE]So things that you speak from the heart comes from a Book. I suppose that's understandable...[/QUOTE]
alrite u want us to give u OUR knowledge, but we first must learn...we learn from the Bible...we believe it and it is a part of us. its part of our heart

[QUOTE]Sure, learning and applying knowledge is one thing, but I thought it's funny how all most Christians do is give quotes from the 'Big Book' to answer everyone's questions. It's like memorizing lines from a play or copying someone word for word, nothing to be impressed about because any child can do just that. It's almost like, plagiarism. [QUOTE]
plagiarism?! hahahahahahaha i dont think they mind...God ask us too share and teach His Word(Much of His Word can be found in the Bible) He doesn't mind

[/QUOTE]You're confusing me yet again. Are you saying that Man is born evil? [QUOTE]
born sinners

[QUOTE]It's not our place to judge those things, but it is in our place to do something about it instead of crying to God. As you can see, no matter how much they (Jews) were suffering, God seemed to have closed His eyes to it all. Was it because of who they are? Are Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions any less of a human than Christians?[/QUOTE]

yes, only God should judge, other's judgements don't matter anyway...crying to God? we place everything in His hands...He tells us not to worry in anything, but to bring everything to Him in prayer...hum Jesus was a Jew...God didnt close His eyes on them...He sent His only Son to die for them(wow im sure thats closing His eyes....i mean He sent His Son to DIE...just so we can screw up all the time and still be with Him...yeah sure seems like He was turning away from them...uh no!
less human..no...Jesus was a Jew as i said before b/c Christian means follower of Christ and b/c God had not yet sent Jesus there were no Christians. Jesus was part of God, as He still is...the people had been promised a Savior....they just didnt know the Savior would come as form of a human and be crucified....Islam teaches many of the same principles of Christianity. its is a lot like Judiusm...u c Jews believe in the Old Testament(the Torah)...when Jesus came the New Testament came into place, about His earthly life here...Jews dont believe that He is God's Son so they dont believe the Savior has come yet, which is why they still do things like the sacrament once a year for all their sins...in Christianity we have the Ultimant Sacrament, Jesus Christ...we dunt have to do that once a year, b/c Jesus has done it forever....the Jews, like Muslims believe He is a great prophet, but not the Son of God...which brings me back to the point i brought up a while back...they say that prophets are to do what God tells them. surely prophets would not lie abt what God has told them to say or who they are. it is SCIENTIFICALLY proven that a man named Jesus was crucifed for claiming He was the Son of God....so the Jews are saying that He lied, which thye say prophets can lie. CONTRADICTION NUMBER ONE!! theey also (esp. Muslims) believe in mnay prophets....many of which wrote the Bible...(James, John, etc.) scientist have found the letters and notes of these prophets, who were sent to tell of God's word BY GOD...the Bible is merly their teachings and notes in a written, published form...however the Jews dont believe in the New Testament...so they are saying that these prophets are lieing, scientist have FOUND the letters that are now in Bibles....Muslims dont believe in the Bible, so they are saying that those prophets are lieing abt the things in there...but wait, they also say prophets cant lie...CONTRADICTION NUMBER 2!! less human, no! wrong? yes!

i gtg so sume1 else can answer the rest

[sadolakced acid]

i have a question for all you christians out there. well, a few.

1. why does creation exclude evolution. can't god do whatever he wants? so can't he create the earth and then use evolution to do the rest? (my theory)

2. why do people use jesus instead of god? aren't they the same? using jesus just seems (to me) like those people are worshiping a person. (my observation)

3. if you belive in the bible, will you belive this? (my watching TV[history channel, discovery channel] )

A.. the bible has been show as historically correct in many areas. however, the translation has been botched in places. for example, when moses parted the red sea, it is suppost to be just the red body of water. i.e. the red marsh. or the reed sea.

B.. in the bible angels come from the sky. they don't have wings. they're taller than humans. big eyes. sometimes with craft?? a craft apparently lead moses out of egypt.

(i have not actually read the bible, so i don't really know. this is all info i got from TV programs. )


well, please don't flame. i don't really know that much about christianity and pardon me if i'm wrong.

[abberdabber]

alright i jacked it up again, i answered at two different times.. dont flame.. i tried to fix it but it wont let me combine the two answers.

1.  why does creation exclude evolution.  can't god do whatever he wants?  so can't he create the earth and then use evolution to do the rest?  (my theory)

Alright, I know that in school, on TV.. Just about anywhere you look you can find the teaching of the theory of evolution. Now, I dont really know much about that, I mean, it's not my place to question it. I know that God created the earth.. and Us. But I also think that there's a connection somewhere between 'evolution' and the creation of man. It doesnt matter, because it will all be revealed.

2.  why do people use jesus instead of god?  aren't they the same?  using jesus just seems (to me)  like those people are worshiping a person.  (my observation)

OK. God is our GOD.. but he sent His son to die for our sins. There had to be a sacrafice pure enough for all of our sins. The world had gotten so corrupt, that there had to be a completely pure and innocent sacrafice. (Thats where the blood of the lamb came into play) And nothing about Jesus was corrupt. He was perfect and blameless. Jesus and God were separate, in a way.. but Jesus was the 'human' version of God, not only because he was sent by God, but because He used the poswer of God to it's full extent. He followed the Bible word for word.. and was constantly led by God. But most of all, We are grateful to our merciful LORD and saviour. He died for all of us. He went through ALL of that, and never told any non-believer what was going on. He was silent before the rulers. He could have easily called upon the angels to take Him away.. but yet, He stayed and endoured. But most importantly, after He had died, He rose again. That is the proof that the Jews are confused. There is no way that a prophet would rise again. There had to be some power from God involved in that.. but thats something you'll just have to read about for yourself. If you want to read about it at all, you should read Matthew Mark Luke and John. . in the new testament. They're really good cause it tells about all the miracles Jesus worked, Getting his disciples, Being crucified, everything.

A..  the bible has been show as historically correct in many areas.  however, the translation has been botched in places.    for example, when moses parted the red sea, it is suppost to be just the red body of water.  i.e.  the red marsh.  or the reed sea.

Luke 17:6
"... He (Jesus) replied, 'If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted, and planted in the sea!' and it will obey you.'... "
It doesnt matter how Large or Small the body of water that Moses parted, just that he had faith enough to do it.

B.. in the bible angels come from the sky.  they don't have wings.  they're taller than humans.  big eyes.  sometimes with craft??  a craft apparently lead moses out of egypt.

I dont understand what you're asking here.

So, I hope I helped.