Can you prove that the Bible is authentic? That there's truely no Contradictions, If there even 1 contradiction, the Bible is not authentic. Options

[illriginal]

Can you guys prove these contradictions to be false? Here's your challenge, prove to me and everyone else that the Bible is not false and misleading to the truth of God and his prophets.


Here's your big resource of Biblical contradictions:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[illriginal]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html
http://www.greenwych.ca/bible-a.htm
http://members.aol.com/chasklu/religion/pr...e/question.html

[HearrrtBreakerrr]

that site has has a lot of crap on it, the person who wrote it doesn't know the bible because some of the stuff coming out of their mouth, boy. and are you ok? you seem to be going around the forums trying to prove your religion and falsify christianty. do you have something to prove to yourself about your religion? who does that, if they're comfortbale with themself and their beliefs? i'm not going to respond toward the debate, because that would take me forever to go through everything and arguing (or debating as you'd like to call it) about religion is POINTLESS because everyone is going to think exactly what they want anyway. just thought u'd like to know i think ur pushy, dumb (ahaha), and from an outsider you seem like u have something yu need to prove badlyyyyyyyyyyyy. have a nice day.

[*Zatanna*]

Per request, this is being re-opened.

However, let me reiterate the Debate Forum rules:

• Topics are not to bash others.
• Immature behaviors/comments will not be tolerated.
• Please don't double post.
• Cussing is not allowed.
• All debate topics must be kept at a certain maturity level.
• Please remember, not everyone thinks like you. People have their ways of thinking and perspectives. Let's respect each other's thoughts and responses.
• Be nice.

I would really like to point out the rule that has been bolded. Be civil, be respectful and be courteous. I will close this and will warn anyone who does not abide by these simple rules. Period.

Thread is being open for the following reason:

Make a new thread outlining these inconsistencies. I do not mind answering them, AS LONG AS YOU READ THEM IN THE BIBLE YOURSELF, THAT WAY YOU CAN SEE THE CONTEXT THEY ARE IN, INSTEAD OF JUST CUTTING AND PASTING FROM SOME WEBSITE. (understand why I'm emphasing that point).

[*kryogenix*]

Tamacracker, use the following website to find weed out any inconsistency you might find.

Tektonics

Oh, and I went to skeptics anotated bible, and I found this:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Now do you see the problem with just linking? It kills discussion. That's why I suggested you at least read the passages you're saying are inconsistent, in order to save any trouble you might have later when they really aren't.

Try again, and I'll respond.

[Nymphetamine]

*Sigh*. What do you have against Christianism? You shouldn't care if it's got contradictions, you're a true Muslim, go with your Faith.
It seems like you're obsessed with christianism. You're so determined in finding something wrong with the Bible.

[Joss-eh-lime]

is that the definition of authentic?

[Kontroll]

Islam, eh? Well, if you look at the Christian Bible, you will find alot more consistencies than not. First of all to just get the over all story of the Bible is amazing. The people who wrote it didn't even know eachother. It's not like they got together and conspired about writing this book that would, and has changed the world.

Firstly, the Trinity is logical. As humans we think that 1+1+1=3. Well, yes it does, but actually when we see the Trinity figure it's more like they hold different offices. There's God the Father. God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All three offices held by one being. Is that clear?

Secondly, considering you have a faith you understand that the world was created, yes? Who created it? Well, according to Christianity, our God is a personal God. He never had to create a world to have a relationship, but He did. God is a relationship. There's a Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There's a relationship right there for you. He wants to have a relationship with us.

Now, the god of Islam is a monad. That means that he's basically a one dimentional being. To create a world full of humans who depend on relationships and look to Allah as god would make Allah inconsistent. He would not be all powerful because in order to have a relationship with your god he would have to change to fit his own creation, and not the other way around.

The Bible has over 6,000 manuscripts. The chances that they have passages inconsistent with eachother are very slim. It's a book of truth. It's history. Come on. We can just see that from the stories of Exodus, and the Babolonian Captivity. They were actual historical events. To prove that the Bible is completely inconsistent would take a long time. Considering that you're skeptical of it to begin with, you wouldn't believe the evidence even if it was handed to you. So, there really is no point to this topic than to make Christianity seem fallible.

Why don't you do the research yourself. That's what the Bible says. Interpret it your own way and find out what I'm(God) saying to you. We as humans are born with this knowing that there is a god out there. Why do you think the earliest civilizations believed in something. They believed in the animism. At least it was something. They believed there was a god out there. But we know that animism is false because everything is interconnected if you look at it. The sun gives us heat and energy, and the plants give us oxygen, and the water gives life to the plants, and so forth. If things depend on eachother to survive, then there would have to be a god in order for it all to work.

[AngelinaTaylor]

It's history. Come on. We can just see that from the stories of Exodus, and the Babolonian Captivity. They were actual historical events.

Um, no they're not. Historians and archeologists actually doubt that the Exodus ever happened. There is not ONE piece of evidence that somebody wondered in the desert for FORTY years. Other stories as well - such as Noah's ark.

And Tamacracker - stop using sites as your arguments. Are you really that unintelligent that you can't read and interpret these? If you don't care to read them, why should we? Seriously.

[Nymphetamine]

^ Didn't you have more than 988 posts or am I dreaming?

[AngelinaTaylor]

You're dreaming.. I have 991, I think :P

[Nymphetamine]

It was 988 when I posted that. Oh well, I thought you were a post whore.

[BonneVache]

Tamacracker, you kind of just hop around the forms trying to put down Christianity / anything not Islam don't you?

I don't see how starting this topic was a debate, since you basically made up your mind at the start and will cite any random souce to prove the opposition wrong.

[avarice]

I have a question about the Bible.
but firstly let me state that I am not against christianity, it's really just my personal curiousity.

How can the bible be 100% accurate, if it was written by over 40 authors?
Wouldn't each author have put it in their own perspective and also just like myths or legends passed down through oral traditions, would events be exaggerated or changed?

[AngelinaTaylor]

^ Thank you.

[*wind&fire*]

I have a question about the Bible.
but firstly let me state that I am not against christianity, it's really just my personal curiousity.

How can the bible be 100% accurate, if it was written by over 40 authors?
Wouldn't each author have put it in their own perspective and also just like myths or legends passed down through oral traditions, would events be exaggerated or changed?

this is what makes the Bible such a reliable source though, because of its continuity with stories throughout the authors,

let me think about this a bit more

[avarice]

Yet, if the author of one book, for example the gospel, states something different or completely dismisses something in their book, how then can the bible still be completely true? If the bible is what it claims to be, God breathed and the Word of God. Shouldn't it be completely free of flaw or error?

[jordan.]

Not again

Okay, I read through those sites and I can prove half of their "contradictions" wrong - they obviously haven't read the bible for themselves. Like one of them is saying that prayer doesn't work: ehem? it does. That same one says 'why aren't christians doing greater work than jesus when he said they would?': they are, believe me I've seen some damn amazin stuff in my time.

You're supplying links to what OTHER people are saying, when you yourself are trying to convince us the bible is crap. Sorry that just isn't smart. I respect everyone's beliefs, therefore you should too. Don't force your religion onto people because thats what it's seeming to be like to me.

There is not ONE piece of evidence that somebody wondered in the desert for FORTY years.

Please note that the bible uses metaphors heavily, the 40 could mean 10 or whatever.

[orgasm]

*Sigh*. What do you have against Christianism? You shouldn't care if it's got contradictions, you're a true Muslim, go with your Faith.
It seems like you're obsessed with christianism. You're so determined in finding something wrong with the Bible.

*Christianity, not Christianism.


I skimmed through the site that you provided and it is obviously written by somebody who doesn't understand the Bible and the message that the scripture is conveying.

I don't have the time - nor do I want to - go through every single statement the site referenced and talk about why they're wrong and need to buy an education.

But here is what I noticed right off the bat.

1) They take statements out of context
2) They tried to link Christianity and science together when it is obviously not possible to do that. It's always been a very clear view-point of Christians that we DON'T believe in evolution. So why are you taking the Bible and saying it contradicts science? Those are two things you can't really compare.
3) They take a sentence and analyze it without giving you the rest of the passage. Because if you went back and thoroughly read it, you would realize that it makes sense. I guess this is the same thing as #1..
4) The Bible isn't supposed to be taken literally. It uses a lot of metaphors, parables, stories, whatever to get it's point across.

I could say a lot more, but... as I said... not enough time.

[Shahin]

Like one of them is saying that prayer doesn't work: ehem? it does.

Oh damn, good point.

[orgasm]

I have a question about the Bible.
but firstly let me state that I am not against christianity, it's really just my personal curiousity.

How can the bible be 100% accurate, if it was written by over 40 authors?
Wouldn't each author have put it in their own perspective and also just like myths or legends passed down through oral traditions, would events be exaggerated or changed?

The Bible isn't about accuracy. It can be seen as a "history" book if it must, but it's purpose is to teach and guide people. The 40 different authors all write through God. They write their experiences with God and what they see, hear, and witness.

It's difficult to explain the concept of faith when the person you're trying to explain it to doesn't have any. Faith is the foundation of Christianity. You trust in God, you believe that he does good and works through people, therefore it's understood that an "inaccurate" Bible would not be printed unless it was an inaccuracy done on purpose by a non-Christian or someone hoping to screw people over.

[AngelinaTaylor]

It's difficult to explain the concept of faith when the person you're trying to explain it to doesn't have any. Faith is the foundation of Christianity. You trust in God, you believe that he does good and works through people, therefore it's understood that an "inaccurate" Bible would not be printed unless it was an inaccuracy done on purpose by a non-Christian or someone hoping to screw people over.

Yeah, and you also don't ask questions, right? ;) God forbid.

[Spirited Away]

4) The Bible isn't supposed to be taken literally. It uses a lot of metaphors, parables, stories, whatever to get it's point across.

Okay, now I'm confused, or maybe not. If you say that the Bible should not be taken literally because there are a whole lot of metaphors, then how can anyone take it literally that, for example, the world flooded, or that heaven and hell exist? Couldn't they be just metaphors for a regional disaster like, oh, Katrina, or a heaven and hell contrived by our own conscience?

Rather convenient to interpret certain things as metaphors and take others literally.

2) They tried to link Christianity and science together when it is obviously not possible to do that. It's always been a very clear view-point of Christians that we DON'T believe in evolution. So why are you taking the Bible and saying it contradicts science? Those are two things you can't really compare.

Can't link science and Christianity? You did just that when you said that Christians don't believe in evolution. That is a contrast of Christianity to science, a linkage. I think I get what you're trying to say, but I'm not really sure if you are saying what I'm thinking.

[andy...]

The Bible has over 6,000 manuscripts. The chances that they have passages inconsistent with eachother are very slim. It's a book of truth. It's history. Come on. We can just see that from the stories of Exodus, and the Babolonian Captivity. They were actual historical events. To prove that the Bible is completely inconsistent would take a long time. Considering that you're skeptical of it to begin with, you wouldn't believe the evidence even if it was handed to you. So, there really is no point to this topic than to make Christianity seem fallible.

The many manuscripts of The Bible (of the new Testament concerning Jesus) are largely consistent with eachother because that was the purpose of its creation in the first place.

Back in the early days of the Christianity, it had many different sects and they each had different interpretations and beliefs on Jesus's teachings. This caused a hell of a lot of problems and confusion for everybody. This led certain people to go out and seek to create only one orthodox view. And so, in a series of many councils and meetings (such as the Council of Nicea), bishops and priests debated interpretations and teachings of Jesus, and decided which ones would be accepted as true and orthodox. They gathered and edited scriptures that were consistent with one another and supported orthodox views, and compiled them into the The Bible. This was all in order to unite all Christians under the ONE doctrine and authority, the authority, of course, being The Catholic Church.

All scriptures and texts which contradicted the Bible were then declared to be untrue and heretical, and The Church tried to suppress and destroy them all, but some survived, most notably, The Nag Hammadi Library, a collection of early Christian texts discovered in 1945, and which predate any of the New Testament scriptures, and directly contradict them in even many of their most fundamental beliefs, such as the divinity of Jesus Christ. This was all part of the centuries of persecution of so-called "heretics", whose beliefs contradicted and challenged the doctrine and authority of The Church.


Now please, don't take me as some kind of anti-religious freak who is obsessed with this subject or anything, but seriously dudes, it's just common sense and logic if you just even vaguely do some reading on Christianity's evolution, and how the Church developed.

The fact is that the Bible was for the most part a political document assembled as a means to gain authority and power for The Church.

I know theres no convincing some of you who are blind and so dedicated to remaining ignorant and stupid(im sorry man but theres no other way to put it), but your "religion", Christianity as we know it today, is not even close to what jesus ever meant it to be. I'm serious, just clear your mind and observe everything that The Church and "Christians" have done in the past millenium....




You think Jesus would accept that shit?

[AngelinaTaylor]

Hmmmm, I'm curious as to why in Noah's Ark story, he's first told by god to take the "clean" animals by sevens and the "unclean" by twos, and then in the end, he just takes two of each? And how do you fit every animal, plus food for all for 40 days on that boat?

I can't believe there are still people who take this literally.

[datass]

This is probably off topic.

But I've always thought Noah's Ark story was extremely ridiculous...(not trying to bash Christianity)

[chasingvictory]

i assume that you are muslim.. that website: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ has things on the QURAN too..... http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm So that whole thing about wrong stuff in the bible... well according to the website the quran as some wrong stuff too.

[kimmytree]

This is probably off topic.

But I've always thought Noah's Ark story was extremely ridiculous...(not trying to bash Christianity)

Me too. I believe in the Bible, for the most part, but why the heck would God have wanted to destroy the earth? The whole flood thing sounds ridiculous to me. And how would it have been possible to take two of each species on to the Ark? Wouldnt different breeds of animals be located in different parts of the world? What about the polar bears?

[Kontroll]

Who cares anymore. No one on this forum is smart enough to persuade any one else besides Acid Bath Slayer. Everyone else just says 'Yes that's true,' or 'No, that's complete crap.' Why bother even arguing about a subject or subjects that no one really know's much about?

[dustinisawesome]

ok, about the inconsistencie, (i spelled that sooo wrong!) a reason that everything doesn't flow exactly from one author to another is that each author was from a different place at different time periods all raised up differently. each verse, etc, written by each author is slightly different from another because each other would take a story and slighty exagerate in it like a legend or myth, and besides that, they would mix in parts about their own past experiences to emphasyze a point. just like books nowadays. you get some books. you guy a stephen king book and a goosebumps book. both books might tell the same story, but they're gonna be written differently because of the authors' writing style.
and you shouldn't bash faith, merely agree, disagree, or question it. but don't run it down. i have great respect with people who have faith. faith is believing something hard to believe in or believing in something that you don't really want to believe in.
but that was a very good point brough up earlier....if the bible contains such a great number of metaphors then how are we to believe the earth flooded or heaven and hell existed? that was a VERY good point! i don't think the bible should be taken completely litterally though, because some things in the bible are physically impossible....well...i guess if it deals with god then physics aren't an issue. but what i'm trying to say is that nobody's opinon of the bible is right or wrong because nobody truely knows who's right or not. I hate it when people say they KNOW the bible is real. i've got nothing against christians...but you do NOT in anyways know whether you're right or wrong about anything in this world. same goes for people that "KNOW" the bible is wrong too. no, you don't know anything.
anyways, i believe point made. and lots of typing.
so now i'mma stop.

[Spirited Away]

^ I'm glad someone think so. I've heard someone else, a Christian, mentioned that the Bible has metaphors, too, but that of course, lead to my current quandary. Though, if the Bible isn't taken literally, then the crux of the problem would be questioning how true the religion is set up as it is today.


JakeKKing, saying that Acid Bath Slayer, or Nate, is the only one who is smart enough to participate in these discussions reduce the rest of us to bumbling idiots. While I respect that Nate is intelligent and that he has made considerable contributions, I highly resent that comment.

[espressive]

Can you prove the Qur'an has absolutely no faults within itself? Can you prove the existance of Allah?

No, you can't. Religions are based on faith. Don't ask me to justify my faith when you can't even justify yours.

[vash1530]

^no one can justify faith...dur

[espressive]

^

The authentity of the Bible, I meant... if he can't even prove that the Qur'ran is authentic.

[QueenAkahsa]

Hmm..
I read this book, once.
About contradictions and proof.
I cannot remember much of it, or the author, but I'll look for it these days, and recommend it.
You'll see just how stupidly the Bible contradicts itself throughout the entire "story".
On countless occassions.

[kimmytree]

Hmm..
I read this book, once.
About contradictions and proof.
I cannot remember much of it, or the author, but I'll look for it these days, and recommend it.
You'll see just how stupidly the Bible contradicts itself throughout the entire "story".
On countless occassions.

Ooooh, please let us know what the book is called.



I'd love to read it.

[smoke]

^ As would I.

You'll see just how stupidly the Bible contradicts itself throughout the entire "story".
On countless occassions.

Mind providing some examples back up with fact? That's a pretty bold statment. (Haha, I bolded the bold... I'm sorry. I'll stop. )

[Simba]

^ Ha ha Brenden.

And yeah, I agree with Brenden.
Authors will try to get you to believe that what they say in their books is true. Unless you've had a good amount of prior knowledge about the subject, you may fall for what they say because of the "facts" (whether they be true or not) back it up well.

[EnderSSoGC]

I know we are supposed to debate ourselves rather than post links...but, I could not remember/do not have time to list the inconsistencies I know of and they're all here anyway. So, if you have time...here is a list of many inconsistencies that have been found in the Bible.
Bible Inconsistencies

One I'll point out is this:

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
- Genesis 22:1

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
- James 1:13

"He's testing us," is always such a popular excuse for the bad things that happen in life. We all know God tested Abraham and Moses...and yet here he is saying he tests no man. I'd say that's a contradiction. So, yes there are contradictions. And I'm not sure authentic is exactly the word you're going for...but, I think it's safe to say these Biblical scholars were not told the Bible word for word from thier God. For God is omniscient and would therefore prevent these inconsistencies, yes?

And just for fun:
Qur'an Inconsistencies

[Spirited Away]

Authors will try to get you to believe that what they say in their books is true. Unless you've had a good amount of prior knowledge about the subject, you may fall for what they say because of the "facts" (whether they be true or not) back it up well.

I can say the same about the Bible, or any other holy texts that claim to be the only truth.

[Simba]

^ Exactly.

Which is why you have to be open-minded about everything else.

[NoSex]

^ Exactly.

Which is why you have to be open-minded about everything else.

Let's talk about a standard of evidence though.
When someone tells you a book contradicts itself, that is certainly something that is easily feasible.
When someone tells you that a man walked on water, healed the sick, rose the dead, turned water to wine, and raised himself from the dead, among other things, you tend to want to raise a brow.

Let's stay open minded, for serious.
How could we ever possibly prove that a man did all those things 2,000 years ago? What reason do we have to believe such nonsense over any other similiar nonsense? Open minds are great, but, once you start believing all that humbug you might want to check exactly how "open" your mind is.

[quinntastic]

People always argue this point about the Bible having contradictions. It's not like if someone proves to you Christianity is real and working in their life that you're automatically going to convert. People are going to believe what they want to believe regardless.

[kimmytree]

Let's talk about a standard of evidence though.
When someone tells you a book contradicts itself, that is certainly something that is easily feasible.
When someone tells you that a man walked on water, healed the sick, rose the dead, turned water to wine, and raised himself from the dead, among other things, you tend to want to raise a brow.

Let's stay open minded, for serious.
How could we ever possibly prove that a man did all those things 2,000 years ago? What reason do we have to believe such nonsense over any other similiar nonsense? Open minds are great, but, once you start believing all that humbug you might want to check exactly how "open" your mind is.

Very well said.

But, being at a Christian school, I'm being taught that I and anyone else who "chooses" not to believe is surely damned. Its not like people intentionaly choose not to believe for the heck of it. Its just all too far fetched to me.

So many people are taught that, and its really sad that people are being scared into believing that.

[vash1530]

this is funny because I recetly had a socratic seminar in a literature class with the main question centering around the belief and morals of religion. THis is funny because many of the kids that were programmed...urm...raised into believing in s religion, when told to discuss and think seriously about their religion, the questions (that sadly have no answers) started pouring out.just a random side note.

[AngelinaTaylor]

It's funny; the smartest people I know are mostly atheists and agnostics.

But anyway. One thing I've been thinking about:

Do you think knowledge is subject to change? Does Knowledge (capital K, since Knowledge and knowledge are different things) change? God is "omniscient", right? He knows everything. However, if Knowledge changes, how can god still be omniscient?

If you (for a lack of better word) believe that Knowledge changes, you can't possibly have a belief in god.

[sdingfelder]

Unfortunately, your logic's a bit flawed:
The "knowledge" (based on your use of capital "K") of man is definitely subject to change, but you're assuming that God's Knowledge changes. I can only assume that, since you don't believe in the God of the Bible, you believe nothing exists that has complete Knowledge.

Even the smartest people you know (the atheists and agnostics) hardly know anything in terms of all the possible things to know. Even if you give each of them the benefit of the doubt and say they know 1% of EVERYTHING there is to know, they'd have to admit that they are ignorant of FAR MORE than they're knowledgable of.

In the HUGE majority of what they don't know resides the singular Truth of God. If these smartest people you know took the time to read and honestly seek His Truth, they just might find it.

Here are some examples of how man's knowledge has changed and -- surprise -- it's aligned with God's Knowledge:
THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
SCIENCE THEN The earth was a flat disk.
SCIENCE NOW The earth is a sphere.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22).
SCIENCE THEN Only 1,100 stars.
SCIENCE NOW Innumerable stars.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7).
SCIENCE THEN Earth sat on a large animal.
SCIENCE NOW Free float of earth in space.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews11:3).
SCIENCE THEN Science was ignorant on the subject.
SCIENCE NOW Creation made of invisible elements (atoms).

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41).
SCIENCE THEN All stars were the same.
SCIENCE NOW Each star is different.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Light moves (Job 38:19,20).
SCIENCE THEN Light was fixed in place.
SCIENCE NOW Light moves.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Air has weight (Job 28:25).
SCIENCE THEN Air was weightless.
SCIENCE NOW Air has weight.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
SCIENCE THEN Winds blew straight.
SCIENCE NOW Winds blow in cyclones.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11).
SCIENCE THEN Sick people must be bled.
SCIENCE NOW Blood is the source of life and health.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6).
SCIENCE THEN The ocean floor was flat.
SCIENCE NOW Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).
SCIENCE THEN Ocean fed only by rivers and rain.
SCIENCE NOW Ocean contains springs.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13).
SCIENCE THEN Hands washed in still water.
SCIENCE NOW When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.

By the way, your agnostic friends really should come up with another name for themselves since the true meaning of the word "agnostic" ("a" meaning the lack of, and "gnosis" meaning knowledge) labels them immediately as having no knowledge. Very much like to "muse" on something means to ponder or to think, "amuse" means the lack of thinking. This is why they're called "amusement" parks...

[splitnightsky]

I guess we are taking this as
"is the Bible true to the point of Christianity and creationism"
so I will take it from there.

Christianity and Creationism = a theory.
theory = a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations,
which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth

but I cannot "prove" this to you scientifically,
because you can choose to dismiss it all as coincidence.
however, since it is a theory,
you cannot disprove it.

knowledge never changes.
our breach of knowledge changes, yes.
but as the person before me said;
the world has always been round.
we were just too dumb to know.
the sun is the center of the solar system.
it's always been true,
we as humans just didn't realize it.

after all, how much of our brain do we use?
the capacity is there.
however, the breach is not.
knowledge never changes.
we change our views on knowledge.

the end of my tyraid. whew.
I am so sorry if you don't agree.
but I didn't ever ask for anyone to

[sdingfelder]

I'm a bit confused. You say that you "believe the Bible can be a hard issue of fact." So, you believe it is true. You then say that each person has their own theory -- which implies that your belief in the Bible is mere theory.

Which is it ? Do you believe the Bible as truth or do you think it's just a theory to which you subscribe at this time in your life ??

Do you believe that there is such a thing as Absolute Truth ? Isn't it important to not only find it, but to help others to find it once you've found it yourself ?

[PandaKnight14]

I have an attached disproof of the flood, copied from some site or another by another message board poster, being passed on by me:

Attached File(s)

 No_Flood.doc ( 31.5K ) Number of downloads: 9

 

[MrStrife]

Saw another thread that reminded me of this: Christian (Optimistic) & Non-Bible (realistic). Anyways the Bible was written by human beings, who were capable of mistakes, a long time ago and it can be full of gaps and flaws. The main point is that it teaches Christians about faith, right and wrong, and hope. btw long time ago attended a private church school and now currently atheist so please don't take offense on my opinion.

[PandaKnight14]

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
SCIENCE THEN The earth was a flat disk.
SCIENCE NOW The earth is a sphere.

THE BIBLE (2,000–3,000 years ago) Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7).
SCIENCE THEN Earth sat on a large animal.
SCIENCE NOW Free float of earth in space.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/febible.htm

[Spirited Away]

Wait, wait what? That's not what Isaiah 40:22 says, my friend.

Circle =/= Sphere

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...&version=9;

I'm now confused.

And honestly, if the Bible was meant to tell the whole story (or the "truth"), why be so cryptic? I mean one translated version says "suspended", and another says "hang", all of which DO NOT mean "free float" alone. From what I've read, they pretty much say the Earth is static on empty space and we all know that's wrong, too. Where are you getting your passages? Are you "interpreting" them in your own words or something? Well, isn't that convenient?

And while science advanced to call Earth a rotating, revolving sphere, the Bible's still stuck on a "hanged" and "suspended" Earth.

--
must find time to dig up cell phone debate.

[*yrrnotelekktric*]

Yeah, well. Can some really part the Red Sea though?

[lanbexx]

the genius creator of the Hitchhikers guide put it beautifully. in a nutshell:

faith cannot exist with logic. if one has logic, one cannot have faith because faith is based upon trust about the unknown, which, in essence, cannot be determined by lack of logic/knowledge. if you try to prove a faith through logic, you'll kill yourself.

[sdingfelder]

Spirited Away,

Very good questions / points.

Circle =/= Sphere

Isaiah 40:22 does specifically say "circle" in the King James English. Please remember, though, that the English word you see is an interpretation of the Hebrew word, "chuwg" (pronounced "khoog" -- like a hocker sound in the beginning, though). This word means "circle, circuit, or compass". The "compass" is not for North / South, but rather to encompass / surround something. The word "sphere" does not appear in the KJV Bible because this same Hebrew word covers both "circle" and "sphere".

And while science advanced to call Earth a rotating, revolving sphere, the Bible's still stuck on a "hanged" and "suspended" Earth.

Once again, if you look at the original Hebrew, you'll see that the word "talah" (pronounced "taw-law") means "to suspend or hang / hang up". When you look at the verse in Job, notice that it says " and hangeth the earth upon nothing." If you hang something on nothing, you can use whatever modern word you'd like (including "free float"), but bottom line is that it's hanging on nothing.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're describing the difference between translations and interpretations. We start with the originals -- the Hebrew & Aramaic of the Old Covenant and the Greek for the New Covenant. We have these documents and this is why, for any questions, this is what is referred to in order to get away from translation issues. These originals have been translated into other languages: English, Chinese, German, etc. Then you get into different interpretations from one English version to another English version. For example, if I were to be speaking in "1950's English", I might say that someone was very gay. But to the "2000's English" listener, they'd think I was saying someone was a homosexual. So, the KJV may say that someone was wearing "gay" clothing but the New KJV says "fine clothes" -- both correct translations based on the original Greek word and putting into the light of what people of the time understand. The original is unchanged.

The point that we shouldn't be overlooking, though, is that it is only the Bible that has described exactly what "science" has finally concluded to be true. It may not have used the exact words that you'd prefer to see, but it has been a true and correct account of something that man took thousands of years to confirm. The One who created all things wrote this down thousands of years earlier to show that He can document that which He created.

lanbexx,

if one has logic, one cannot have faith because faith is based upon trust about the unknown

Wow. That's really deep.

Consider this: A father has to leave his son in a room with a fire in the fireplace. The son has never experienced being burned and has never attempted to touch fire before. Before stepping out of the room, the father tells the son not to touch the fire or he'll be burned. While the father's gone, though, the son disobeys his father and reaches for the fire. He gets burned.

That boy has moved from the realm of untested faith and disbelief into the realm of tested faith and belief. His trust in his father's words is magnified. He now takes this experience into account the next time his father tells him that something's hot and that he shouldn't touch it. He now uses logic in order to exercise his new-found, tested faith.

Logical application of faith and experience lead to increased faith.

The Hitchhikers' Guide is a book that won't help anyone on the day they stand before the Lord in judgment. The Bible is compilation of 66 books written by 40 authors from very different stations in life over a period greater than a thousand years. In it are the words of life and death. Please take the time to consider your eternal destiny and how the Righteous and Holy Judge will look upon you on your Day of Judgment. No one can guarantee that they'll wake up the next day. Please consider what God's done -- in His Mercy and Grace -- so your fine (and mine) can be paid in full for breaking his Commandments.

yrrnotelekktric,

Yeah, well. Can some really part the Red Sea though?

You're right. There's no person that can part the Red Sea. That really wouldn't be a problem for the one who created the water in the first place, though.

[sweetangel2128]

Can you guys prove these contradictions to be false? Here's your challenge, prove to me and everyone else that the Bible is not false and misleading to the truth of God and his prophets.
Here's your big resource of Biblical contradictions:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Go to - "http://www.myspace.com/sweetangel2128" and visit my blog entitled - "bible contradictions". It has a whole list of them for ya.

[mono_logue]

i'm going to go with faith and trust..
the bible has stayed consistent and loyal whereas science can always revolutionize itself especially with time.

[sweetangel2128]

i'm going to go with faith and trust..
the bible has stayed consistent and loyal whereas science can always revolutionize itself especially with time.

How can the Bible be full of facts when thousands of verses in the Bible contradict themselves...read some of the verses in my blog and look them up in your Bible, you will find I am right on a lot of them

[sdingfelder]

From Heath21:
Go to - "http://www.myspace.com/sweetangel2128" and visit my blog entitled - "bible contradictions". It has a whole list of them for ya.

From Heath21:
How can the Bible be full of facts when thousands of verses in the Bible contradict themselves...read some of the verses in my blog and look them up in your Bible, you will find I am right on a lot of them

Okay, I'm hooked. I've got to admit that I'm completely intrigued: Why would you bother reading something you consider to have so many contradictions and use it to determine whether or not you're a good person ? Honestly, why even worry that your friend was saying that you were sinning by having premarital relations when you most likely think that the Bible was simply authored by men ?

What do you specifically believe about the Bible ? Do you just like the stories for some reason ?

As for your list of contradictions: Please identify the 3 "biggest" contradictions on your blog so we can discuss them. What's interesting is that you even admit that you're "right on a lot of them". If you even recognize that the others are not contradictions, why have them ?

[*kryogenix*]

PS, it's easy to post a link of debunked contradictions too. Tektonics has a bunch of them. But for the sake of debate, why not highlight a few?

[sweetangel2128]

Okay, I'm hooked. I've got to admit that I'm completely intrigued: Why would you bother reading something you consider to have so many contradictions and use it to determine whether or not you're a good person ? Honestly, why even worry that your friend was saying that you were sinning by having premarital relations when you most likely think that the Bible was simply authored by men ?

What do you specifically believe about the Bible ? Do you just like the stories for some reason ?

As for your list of contradictions: Please identify the 3 "biggest" contradictions on your blog so we can discuss them. What's interesting is that you even admit that you're "right on a lot of them". If you even recognize that the others are not contradictions, why have them ?

First of all, I just recently found out about the contradictions, I've been or was a Christian for almost 2 years without knowing because I was told it didn't contradict when in actuality it does

And I never said that it was authored by men but "people"...people did write the Bible and we have no clue in knowing whether or not the stories are real because those men are not here today to ask them.

What do I believe about the Bible? Did I just read the stories? Like I stated above, I just recently found out about the contradictions and it is very rude for someone like you to assume that I only read the Bible for the interesting stories...just so freakin' rude. Anways...before I knew of the contradictions I believed in all of the Bible that I have read and heard about until I found out about the contradictions and the fact that we are to not have premarital sex, saying gays are sinning and the fact that you are to not mix with an un-believer...3 things I feel strongly about.

Ok as for the verses, I'll be gladly to show them to you or read them to you. Here ya go: (when your done reading them, look it up in the Bible to verify it, you will find it is there):

1. John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."
2. John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father; for my Father is greater than I".

3. Isaiah 14:21 - "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
4. Deutromy 24:16 - "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

5. Numbers 12:3 - (the one I found for this one was a really off but when I looked it up it says that Moses was a humble man but in another verse it talks of him killing).
6. Numbers 31:14, 17, 18.

7. Acts 1:18 - "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
8. Matthew 27:5-7 - "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

Heres a few to think about and my views on the verses (sorry if they are not EXACTLY worded right but if you read them in the Bible closley it means the EXACT same thing):

1/2. I believe this one is contradicting because one he's saying that he and the Father are one but in a different section it says the Father is greater than he....so how can he be both and what exactly is he?

3/4. Basically, this one is contradicting because it's saying that he will not kill anyone accept the people that brought on the sin int he first place, but not he son and daughters but yet he says in a different verses that the sons and daughters will be killed for sinning but the parents of the sinners will not. ?????

5/6. Just like I stated, it says in one verse that Moses was a very humble man but later on in a different verse it talks of his anger and how he killed people.

7/8. It talks of 2 different ways that he died..so which is it? Hanging or his instestines/guts bursting out? It surely can't be both.

Go ahead and try to argue these points but I guarentee you wont succeed because I looked these up in MY Bible and it says pretty much the same exact thing so the Bible is contradicting.

PS, it's easy to post a link of debunked contradictions too.

It may be easy but if you've noticed he listed the exact verses and areas they are in as did I...so if you go look it up and it says nothing like that of course it's fake but if you look it up and it says that then obviously neither one of us was lying or making things up. Most people think that posting links isn't good proof cause anyone can write anything but they seem to forget that most people put the verses where it can be found so to prove it just look up the verse they stated...theres your proof. If you don't have a Bible go to:

http://www.biblegateway.com

That website gives you the ability to look up certain scriptures in the Bible and what book you want to look it up in.

Just so you guys know my Bible is a New Living Translation one.

[sdingfelder]

And I never said that it was authored by men but "people"...people did write the Bible and we have no clue in knowing whether or not the stories are real because those men are not here today to ask them.

Let me explain why I used the term "authored". Which writes a letter: the pen or the author ? Clearly, it's the author. The author uses the pen. In the same way, God used the men (or people, as you say) to "scribe" His Word. God authored the Word. This is the only way that the Bible can contain specific & fulfilled prophecies. No man can tell the future with as much certainty and as much conciseness as One outside of time -- specifically, only the One who calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega".

As for having no clue as to whether or not the stories are real: Read 2 Timothy 3:16. Because of all you've written, I have no alternative than to assume that you don't believe this verse either.

What do I believe about the Bible? Did I just read the stories? Like I stated above, I just recently found out about the contradictions and it is very rude for someone like you to assume that I only read the Bible for the interesting stories...just so freakin' rude.

Please forgive me for my choice of words. I certainly had no intention of being rude. I'm trying to put together all the things you've said in our past discussions. Specifically, you stated, "...right now I am wondering if I am a Christian because well I don't follow the Bible but I do read it a lot and love the education of it but I also live my life my way while I'm on earth." So, from this, I assumed that you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God; that you read it because you like the teaching (and stories) of it; and that you read it as the writing of men. Is this not true ?

Anways...before I knew of the contradictions I believed in all of the Bible that I have read and heard about until I found out about the contradictions and the fact that we are to not have premarital sex, saying gays are sinning and the fact that you are to not mix with an un-believer...3 things I feel strongly about.

If you believed the Bible before you were exposed to the "contradictions", what was your level of belief of John 3:3 ? Were you born again ?

In terms of your timeframe, though, did it happen that you first found out about the "contradictions" in Scripture and then your views of "premarital sex, saying gays are sinning and the fact that you are to not mix with an un-believer" changed ? Or did you already have issues with those teachings prior to hearing about the "contradictions" ?

I hope that you're comfortable answering these questions because it really is something I've wondered for a long time about those who struggle with the supposed contradictions in the Bible.

Ok as for the verses, I'll be gladly to show them to you or read them to you. Here ya go: (when your done reading them, look it up in the Bible to verify it, you will find it is there):

1. John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."
2. John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father; for my Father is greater than I".

I use the KJV, so I'm going to put the verses here so you can note any differences:

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Please read the following:
Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"
Philippians 2:6-7 "Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
John 1:1,2,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

I have a feeling that you might not understand the Biblical teaching of the Trinity. The whole concept of the Trinity is that God has 3 separate parts -- as we all do. We all have a body, an eternal spirit, and a will or mind. As it says in Genesis 1:26, we are made in His image. Why, if we're made in His image, would we not have the same attributes as Him ? Well, we do. He also has a Body, a Spirit, and a Will. Those 3 parts make up who you are. His 3 parts make Him who He is.

Just as Scripture speaks of a heirarchy: Parent to child; Husband to wife; Government to governed, the Bible speaks of the hierarchy that exists for the 3 parts that make up God. The Father (His Will) is above the Son (His Body) which is above the Spirit (His Spirit).
John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him."

So, I believe the core of this is your understanding of the Trinity. Remember that Christianity only believes in ONE God, but that ONE God is made of 3 distinct and separate parts.

Yes, I know the word "trinity" is nowhere in the Bible, but this is a word that has been used to describe the teaching the Bible. If you'd like to discuss this topic to a further degree, I'd be happy to. Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

3. Isaiah 14:21 - "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
4. Deutromy 24:16 - "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Isaiah 14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

The reason this isn't a contradiction is that the verse in Isaiah 14 is talking of the judgment of a nation. That whole nation had become so corrupt that God's determination is to slaughter that whole nation. Look at the example of Ninevah (where Jonah was sent). In His Mercy, God sent a Jewish prophet to a Gentile nation that was in jeopardy of national judgment. The message sent to them was REPENT or be judged. They repented. This is what God wants of all people -- to repent and to look to & follow Him. Look, also, to the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. Judgment didn't fall on those cities until after the one righteous family was removed. After that, though, those places were judged.

The Deuteronomy 24 verse (as well as what it says in Ezekiel 18) talks of God's judgment on individuals. The nation in which the individuals live has not become absolutely corrupt, so God allows each individual to choose whether or not repent and follow Him.

This is no contradiction. In fact, it shows God's righteousness in judging people as individuals as well as judging a nation that has completely rejected Him.

5. Numbers 12:3 - (the one I found for this one was a really off but when I looked it up it says that Moses was a humble man but in another verse it talks of him killing).
6. Numbers 31:14, 17, 18.

Numbers 12:3 "(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)"
Numbers 31:14, 17, 18 "And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him... But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

What does "meek" mean ? Did you think it meant "weak" ? The Biblical use of the word "meek" shows that it is strength under control.

Jesus called Himself "meek" (Matthew 11:29). Was He weak ? He allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified without trying to get away from it. He even prayed that if there was another way than the cross, to let that "cup pass from Him". He knew what was coming yet He endured it (Hebrews 12:2). Does that sound weak to you ? Not at all -- that's strength under complete control. Fact is that His Sacrifice was written in over abundance around 700 years prior to the event -- read Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12.

He knew that it was only through His Sacrifice that people could be cleansed from their sins.

7. Acts 1:18 - "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
8. Matthew 27:5-7 - "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

Acts 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
Matthew 27:5-7 "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in."

Why would it be difficult to consider that after he fulfilled Zechariah 11:12-13 (written about 500 years before Messiah was born), Judas went to hang himself and fell from a height from which "he burst asunder".

Wouldn't you be able to read in the newspaper the description of someone in a car accident that died instantly upon impact with the steering column and that their abdomen ruptured such that they "burst asunder" ? If someone were to describe this person's death and said that they died due to the impact with the steering column and someone else said that the person's abdomen ruptured open, how is there a contradiction ?

Heres a few to think about and my views on the verses (sorry if they are not EXACTLY worded right but if you read them in the Bible closley it means the EXACT same thing):

1/2. I believe this one is contradicting because one he's saying that he and the Father are one but in a different section it says the Father is greater than he....so how can he be both and what exactly is he?

Again, it sounds like you haven't understood the Trinity properly.

3/4. Basically, this one is contradicting because it's saying that he will not kill anyone accept the people that brought on the sin int he first place, but not he son and daughters but yet he says in a different verses that the sons and daughters will be killed for sinning but the parents of the sinners will not. ?????

Again, national judgment versus individual.

5/6. Just like I stated, it says in one verse that Moses was a very humble man but later on in a different verse it talks of his anger and how he killed people.

Humble men can still have righteous anger. Just look at Jesus as He drove out the money changers in the Temple.
***
7/8. It talks of 2 different ways that he died..so which is it? Hanging or his instestines/guts bursting out? It surely can't be both.
---
Remember that neither Matthew 27:5-7 nor Acts 1:18 specify whether Judas died by hanging or died by the fall. He could've died hanging and fell already dead or he could've screwed up once again and merely tried to hang himself but it was the fall that killed him. The Bible doesn't specifically say that he died hanging in one verse and that he died from being burst asunder in another verse. That would be a contradiction. There is no contradiction.
***
Go ahead and try to argue these points but I guarentee you wont succeed because I looked these up in MY Bible and it says pretty much the same exact thing so the Bible is contradicting.
---
I completely understand. When you go to those verses for yourself and see the apparent contradiction in JUST READING THOSE VERSES, it does look like the Bible contradicts itself. Someone could easily look to my past postings here and pick out excerpts of what I've said and say, "Look at the contradictions in what ScottD's saying !! In one place, he says that men wrote the Bible and in another place he says that God wrote the Bible. Well, which is it !!?? That's a contradiction." Thankfully, that did happen and it reminded me to be more specific when writing things down. Men penned the Bible. God authored the Bible. No contradiction.


I would like to know, though -- since you say that "...I've been or was a Christian for almost 2 years..." -- did you even go to your pastor or a more mature Christian in order to discuss the "contradictions" that were exposed to you ? Or did you simply take a list of "contradictions" by people who are not Christians and use that as your justification to say that the Bible is not the Word of God ?

Note that, as with the above "contradictions", we can discuss ad nauseam many, many more. Please consider again that these supposed contradictions are written by people who already reject Christ and the Bible as the Word of God. Find a more mature Believer to help you through your concerns. Don't just take one side of an argument without taking the time to investigate further -- that goes both way, of course.

I have to end this post with the reminder that for each "contradiction", there is a response. If it is God's Word, then there is no contradiction. If it is God's Word, then it states very clearly how to avoid the judgment of wrath to come. You must repent and you must be born again. That's the only way.

Please consider your eternal destiny. The Bible only speaks of two eternal destinations.

[sweetangel2128]

I would like to know, though -- since you say that "...I've been or was a Christian for almost 2 years..." -- did you even go to your pastor or a more mature Christian in order to discuss the "contradictions" that were exposed to you ? Or did you simply take a list of "contradictions" by people who are not Christians and use that as your justification to say that the Bible is not the Word of God ?

Now, firstly I am not going to respond to that because I do have a life and don't have the time, no offense not trying to be rude. I still stand by on my thoughts and what I found though. I did read your responses but they make "absolutely" no sense to me. Like I tell everyone...God doesn't give us hints, it's written right there clear as day..so I know what I saw.

Anyways, now about this line above m here...you obviously didn't read one of the things I put...I told you I found the contradictions recently and if you've seen my other posts I don't go to church anymore so theres no way I'd go to a pastor..besides, it's still comes down to the pastors views on the Bible he doesn't know what it says FOR SURE...he didn't create it...plus I am sure a lot of pastors would feed me bull just to get me to join there group.

Nuff said.

[sweetangel2128]

"As for having no clue as to whether or not the stories are real: Read 2 Timothy 3:16"

Ok I said that no one has no clue where or not the Bible is all fact..and you gave me a verse to look up...why would a read a verse from the Bible for the answer when we don't know if it's real?

[*mishyerr*]

I know theres no convincing some of you who are blind and so dedicated to remaining ignorant and stupid(im sorry man but theres no other way to put it), but your "religion", Christianity as we know it today, is not even close to what jesus ever meant it to be. I'm serious, just clear your mind and observe everything that The Church and "Christians" have done in the past millenium....
You think Jesus would accept that shit?

Amen.

[sdingfelder]

mishyerr,

"Amen" is usually meant as a sign of agreement. If you agree with this other person's opinion, can you please explain, then, what this means ??

...Christianity as we know it today, is not even close to what jesus ever meant it to be.

[*mishyerr*]

mishyerr,

"Amen" is usually meant as a sign of agreement. If you agree with this other person's opinion, can you please explain, then, what this means ??

Actually, I used to be a very strong follower; don't take me up as some athiest who has never read the Bible.

And since your cute little signature is a quote from the Bible, why don't you tell ME how you are living as Jesus, bearing the cross on your back as a daily burden, and following Jesus' preachings word by word?

Oh, and no need to define "amen" for me. I think I know what it means. Thanks. :]

[sdingfelder]

Actually, I used to be a very strong follower; don't take me up as some athiest who has never read the Bible.

And since your cute little signature is a quote from the Bible, why don't you tell ME how you are living as Jesus, bearing the cross on your back as a daily burden, and following Jesus' preachings word by word?

Oh, and no need to define "amen" for me. I think I know what it means. Thanks. :]

Good day, mishyerr.

I'll certainly answer your question once you've answered my previous question first.

What does it mean to you when you agreed with the following statement:

...Christianity as we know it today, is not even close to what jesus ever meant it to be.

[*Uronacid*]

Good day, mishyerr.

I'll certainly answer your question once you've answered my previous question first.

What does it mean to you when you agreed with the following statement:

I think she believes that, now-a-days we (as Christians) do not follow the word according to the way Jesus meant us to.

[*mishyerr*]

I think she believes that, now-a-days we (as Christians) do not follow the word according to the way Jesus meant us to.

Exactly.

[Kontroll]

I think she believes that, now-a-days we (as Christians) do not follow the word according to the way Jesus meant us to.

Well, that's why we have the Bible. God intended us to research for ourselves.

[sdingfelder]

From Uronacid:
I think she believes that, now-a-days we (as Christians) do not follow the word according to the way Jesus meant us to.

From mishyerr:
Exactly.

As opposed to restating the original quote that you said "Amen" to, please elaborate as to what the original quote means to you, please. What, according to your understanding, is the difference betwen "Christianity today" and what Jesus "meant it to be" ??

Just for reference:

What does it mean to you when you agreed with the following statement:

...Christianity as we know it today, is not even close to what jesus ever meant it to be.

[sweetangel2128]

Well, I think everyone has there own way of interpreting what the Bible or what God is trying to say...everyone has there own views of what sins are and what's not a sin. As long as the person loves God why does it matter how they live there Christian life? That's what I always believed when I was a Christian and I do still believe that even though I am no longer a Christian.

[Kontroll]

Well, I think everyone has there own way of interpreting what the Bible or what God is trying to say...everyone has there own views of what sins are and what's not a sin. As long as the person loves God why does it matter how they live there Christian life? That's what I always believed when I was a Christian and I do still believe that even though I am no longer a Christian.

Well, to clarify, if you accepted Jesus in your heart than you can't loose that. You might not follow the religion, but you still are a Christian.

Secondly, there are things that you can't interpret, because that view could change the beliefe 180 degrees.Some things are meant to be interpreted, but that's why there is this whole thing about gay ministers and marrying gay couples. It clearly says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, but people have interpreted it some way that it's not to them.

[*mishyerr*]

As opposed to restating the original quote that you said "Amen" to, please elaborate as to what the original quote means to you, please. What, according to your understanding, is the difference betwen "Christianity today" and what Jesus "meant it to be" ??

Just for reference:

Because through the internet, tones can be confused and read as bitter sarcasm, etc, and cause much offense, my tone is sincere right now, so please take that to mind before you read this.

Honestly, I can't even remember what I was referring to. But since obviously it is such a huge burden to you that a non-Christian must explain what she thinks about what Jesus meant... then I will attempt to explain what I learned during my years of Christianity.

One sermon, that has not only touched me deep inside, but scarred me forever, is when my youth leader told us to "bear the Cross on our backs daily." This is not some sort of cute metaphor where you pray at lunch, read your Bible before you sleep, and say a silly little prayer at night. This is pure suffering for Jesus everyday. This is Christians, every day, moment by moment living for Jesus and "what would Jesus do." I can't really remember, and I'm not going to go back and search for it, but I think I do remember something about Jesus not accepting "shit." Well, obviously, Jesus would not accept the "shit" that people have done so far! Are you trying to tell me that YOU think you bear the cross daily? By starting this argument with me online, are you suffering for Jesus, trying to, what, make me believe that what I agreed to was wrong?
Christians have messed up big time. There would be many more Christians if there were ignorant kids running around telling atheists, Buddhists, Muslims that they're "GOING TO ROT IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!" (and yes, I've heard this said to me after I turned away from Christianity).
If you are trying to convince me that Christians are pure and perfect, like Jesus himself, that if even the mass of today's followers are even attempting to be like, at the very least, his disciples, then please continue on without me. I have already stated my opinion simply:

"Amen" to the 'theory,' if I must, that Christians are not living up to (IMO) Jesus' expectations.

Have a wonderful, blessed day

P.S. I think that person who wrote the "contradictions" website was completely uninformed and ignorant.

---------------------------------------

Oh, and not directed to ScottD, but these are other strange things found in the Bible. These are examples taken from a book titled "AN UNDERGROUND EDUCATION."

One example:
Moses commanded his followers to kill and rape
"Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of the battalions and the companies. He asked them, 'Why have you kept all the women alive. Remember if was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic to the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse but keep for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins.' " (Numbers 31: 13-18)
The last thing he said is open to interpretation, but I mean, I'm pretty sure it's rape.

Haha, actually this is a super good book. It has the "true" story on many things, such as religion (and no, it's not trying to tear apart Christianity), science, sex, arts & literature, and other stuff :) It's written by Richard Zacks.

[sweetangel2128]

It clearly says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, but people have interpreted it some way that it's not to them.

Exactly why I am not a Christian anymore..well one of a thousand reasons.

[*kryogenix*]

Well, I think everyone has there own way of interpreting what the Bible or what God is trying to say...everyone has there own views of what sins are and what's not a sin. As long as the person loves God why does it matter how they live there Christian life? That's what I always believed when I was a Christian and I do still believe that even though I am no longer a Christian.

Is it right for people to believe that slavery is ok?

[sdingfelder]

From Heath21:
That's what I always believed when I was a Christian and I do still believe that even though I am no longer a Christian.

As with everything, just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Similarly, not believing something doesn't make it not true.

From JakeKKing:
Well, to clarify, if you accepted Jesus in your heart than you can't loose that. You might not follow the religion, but you still are a Christian.

With all due respect, JakeKKing, where is the Bible verse that says "accept Jesus in your heart" ?

The Bible does, in fact, say that you can lose "it". Read Hebrews 6:4-6.

Finally, "it" is not about following the religion, it's about following the Messiah. If you're not following Him, you're not a Christian.

From mishyerr:
Because through the internet, tones can be confused and read as bitter sarcasm, etc, and cause much offense, my tone is sincere right now, so please take that to mind before you read this.

I do appreciate your comment about text being a very difficult way to express tone. I agree whole-heartedly. Please, also, take my words sincerely.

From mishyerr:
Honestly, I can't even remember what I was referring to. But since obviously it is such a huge burden to you that a non-Christian must explain what she thinks about what Jesus meant... then I will attempt to explain what I learned during my years of Christianity.

I, also, appreciate you taking the time to explain your personal beliefs and thoughts. You're right that it is a burden for me. It's important to me that you consider your eternal destiny.

From mishyerr:
One sermon, that has not only touched me deep inside, but scarred me forever, is when my youth leader told us to "bear the Cross on our backs daily." This is not some sort of cute metaphor where you pray at lunch, read your Bible before you sleep, and say a silly little prayer at night. This is pure suffering for Jesus everyday. This is Christians, every day, moment by moment living for Jesus and "what would Jesus do." I can't really remember, and I'm not going to go back and search for it, but I think I do remember something about Jesus not accepting "shit." Well, obviously, Jesus would not accept the "shit" that people have done so far!

Jesus was very intolerant to those who were religious. His words toward the religious leaders and those who were hypocrites were scathing -- "generation of vipers", "white-washed tombs", etc.

God judges our intentions as well as actions. He gave His 10 Commandments in order to show us how He's going to judge us. He didn't send His Son simply to die so that people could claim His Name and live however they'd like.

From mishyerr:
Are you trying to tell me that YOU think you bear the cross daily?

Consider the difference between these two:
1. One person has no desire to bring honor to their parents, and
2. One person has a desire to bring honor to their parents but falls short every day

Clearly, a true Christian's desire to bear His cross daily. I have no idea if you're in the US or not, but people who call themselves Christians who live in the US are a sad barometer by which to gauge Christians. Look to those people who are martyred for their faith in Messiah all over the world and see if THOSE people are carrying their crosses daily. Understand that they fully-well know that their profession of faith in Jesus puts a price on their head. They willingly do this knowing that they can live their lives with the full assurance that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has promised them eternal salvation (John 3:16).

As for myself, I am not the One prophesied through the Old Covenant to go to the cross for the salvation of the world, I am, though, called to never denounce Him even if I am put on a cross. In term of what I do daily, I look at the Bible's teachings for a husband, a father, and a follower of Jesus. Without question, I would give my life for my wife and my children. With even less question, I would give my life for my Savior.

Being a true Christian means that I would die for Him, but that's not what He's called me to do (so far) in order to have His favor. Dying for your god in order to receive his favor is a trait of Islam, not Christiantiy.

Messiah died so that I could LIVE for Him. So, with regards to Jesus saying to follow Him to the cross (Luke 9:23), I'm perfectly fine with dying for Him. Until that time, though, He's called me to follow Him in sharing the Good News of the Messiah of Israel (Mark 16:15, Matthew 4:19).

Actually, it'd be easier to die for Him than to live for Him. Look at this blog as an example. I certainly have had no one up to this point support my words in any way. It'd be much easier for me to just stop replying and leave every reader here open to following after their own desires as opposed to trying to share with them the singular Truth found in the Bible -- NOT in the teachings of a building called a church, but to ask you to please consider your eternal destiny and read the Bible YOURSELF. And, if you find a problem in reading it yourself, bring it up so we can both find the truth by looking elsewhere in the Bible. Doesnt' everyone want to find truth ? Something can't be black and white. That thing must be one or the other. If you found truth, wouldn't you want to share it with others ?

From mishyerr:
By starting this argument with me online, are you suffering for Jesus, trying to, what, make me believe that what I agreed to was wrong?

Please forgive me, but I wasn't trying to start an argument. I wanted to start a dialogue -- one specifically to understand why you agreed to something that someone else said.

From mishyerr:
Christians have messed up big time. There would be many more Christians if there were ignorant kids running around telling atheists, Buddhists, Muslims that they're "GOING TO ROT IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!" (and yes, I've heard this said to me after I turned away from Christianity).

It's a shame that you not only consider these "kids" ignorant as well as your comment that you've already turned away from Christ.

From mishyerr:
If you are trying to convince me that Christians are pure and perfect, like Jesus himself, that if even the mass of today's followers are even attempting to be like, at the very least, his disciples, then please continue on without me. I have already stated my opinion simply:

Please know that I would NEVER try to convince someone of something that I didn't fully & strongly believe myself.

I know for a fact that there are many people who call themselves Christians and they put on a show of themselves every time they walk into their building called a church. These people are not Christians and the Bible speaks of them. If they knew what the Bible says about them, they'd either repent or, at least, consider whether or not they really want to follow the One who gave His life for the payment of their lawlessness.

From mishyerr:
"Amen" to the 'theory,' if I must, that Christians are not living up to (IMO) Jesus' expectations.

So, please correct me if I'm wrong: You've said "Amen" to those people that call themselves Christians and do not follow Christ in the things that they do.

If that's what you're saying, I completely agree. These people are false followers of Messiah.
***
From mishyerr:
Have a wonderful, blessed day
---
You, as well. Thank you for your honesty and openness in sharing your thoughts...
***
From mishyerr:
P.S. I think that person who wrote the "contradictions" website was completely uninformed and ignorant.
---
Obviously, we come at if from different perspectives, but I completeyl agree...
***
From mishyerr:
Oh, and not directed to ScottD, but these are other strange things found in the Bible. These are examples taken from a book titled "AN UNDERGROUND EDUCATION."

One example:
Moses commanded his followers to kill and rape
"Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of the battalions and the companies. He asked them, 'Why have you kept all the women alive. Remember if was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic to the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse but keep for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins.' " (Numbers 31: 13-18)
The last thing he said is open to interpretation, but I mean, I'm pretty sure it's rape.
---
I understand that this wasn't directed at me and I appreciate your disclaimer. Since I already had such a long response, I hope you don't mind my commenting on this as well. I'm including the King James version of the text here so you can see the differences that exist between your version and the KJV:
Numbers 31:13-18

"And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

The Lord knew that allowing pagan worship into the camp of Israel would lead the people away from Him. This actually happened in the Bible, so we know that it would've happened at this point as well. So, it was His Will to do this.

As for the "women children, that have not known a man by lying with him" being "kept", the rest of the Old Covenant speaks very specifically on how non-Jews (Gentiles) who were assimilated into the Jewish nation should be treated. They were not be raped. They were to be treated as a member of the Jewish nation with almost all the same rights and privileges. The main differences was that the Gentiles could not proceed into the "Jewish-only" section of the Holy Temple.
***
From mishyerr:
Haha, actually this is a super good book. It has the "true" story on many things, such as religion (and no, it's not trying to tear apart Christianity), science, sex, arts & literature, and other stuff :) It's written by Richard Zacks.
---
I'm interested to know if you'd share how you know what this author says is "true".

As for it "not trying to tear apart Christianity", I can see why you think it might not. But realize that if someone were to read something that says the Bible is not true, doesn't it tear apart someone's perspective of reading the Bible and believing it ?

[sweetangel2128]

As with everything, just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Similarly, not believing something doesn't make it not true.

Same thing goes with Christianity, just because a book says it's true doesn't mean it is.

[sdingfelder]

From Heath21:
Same thing goes with Christianity, just because a book says it's true doesn't mean it is.

Excellent comment, Heath21.

This is exactly the point to studying to find out what the real truth is. Are you studying to find real truth or are you basing "truth" only on what you believe to be true and what seems right to you ?

[ClaudelGFX]

Somewhere in time, someone said that the "Bible" was just an regular book sold as any other regular ones, there were many types but all of them were almost the same, every writer was adding something of its own and chaging the name :)

[sweetangel2128]

Excellent comment, Heath21.

This is exactly the point to studying to find out what the real truth is. Are you studying to find real truth or are you basing "truth" only on what you believe to be true and what seems right to you ?

How do you study something? You can't just read the Bible and say "Oh that must be true since it's in here." It is hard to study something if you really don't have any proof of it being real or made up. Like I said in the past, Christianity is based solely on Faith and nothing more. I believe what I believe. I was brought up to believe in a God, I believed he created everything but I dont believe he gave us all these stupid rules to live by, except of course possibly no stealing, cheating, murdering...ect...all the other stuff I believe was put in there to fit the Christian religion not God's rules or plans. Tell me this....how can there be a whole Bible of teachings when they have only found bits and pieces of scrolls?? And what I am following right now, does seem right to me. I'm happy where I am at in my life right now. I'm living for myself not some deity that might not even exist. I have a Question for you. What would you do if you worshipped your God 100% your whole entire life, never lived for yourself, lived by God's rules or what the Book says and died only to find you waisted your whole life because in the end Heaven nor Hell existed and God didn't create the earth but mother nature did or what if the God you lived for didn't exist but just a God in general did. What would you do? I would rather live for myself than a diety, enjoy life and find out in the end what is truth, rather then live my life as a robot and never live for myself and find out there is no God in the end. That's just what I believe...

Somewhere in time, someone said that the "Bible" was just an regular book sold as any other regular ones, there were many types but all of them were almost the same, every writer was adding something of its own and chaging the name :)

Did you know that a few years back they actually found a scroll that contradicts what the whole Bible says, the Christians found out about it and bought it from the people so that no one would know the real truth? This is a fact...my boyfriend heard it from other people and it was on CNN a long time ago. Another reason why I choose not to believe.

[ClaudelGFX]

Like i've said before, its up to you IN what to believe or who to believe, BUT don't judge others for what they believe IN, because anyway anyhow noone its the same and noone will believe in the same thing, its FREE WILL like they say. YOU ARE FREE TO BELIEVE IN ANYTHING HUMAN OR UNHUMAN, FAIRYTAILS, GHOSTS, VAMPIRES, SATAN or w/e your brain points to, evan alliens :))

[sweetangel2128]

Like i've said before, its up to you IN what to believe or who to believe, BUT don't judge others for what they believe IN, because anyway anyhow noone its the same and noone will believe in the same thing, its FREE WILL like they say. YOU ARE FREE TO BELIEVE IN ANYTHING HUMAN OR UNHUMAN, FAIRYTAILS, GHOSTS, VAMPIRES, SATAN or w/e your brain points to, evan alliens :))

I am not judging others religions or what they believe in. I just don't like being converted lol...hey I believe aliens exist but I don't worship them