Is the Confederate Flag Racist? Options

[onenonly101]

Many people have different views on this. Some say no because the flag is their heritage and many say yes because of what it represents now i nthe present. So the question is If the Confederate Flag Racist.

This was started on another forum and this is what i had to say (keep in mind some people were replying back so, sorry if i repeated my self in any sentences, also it was also starting to talk about the war)

My opinion on the confederate flag is all over the place actually. i think that it the ways it is used can be racist. it started off as a symbol of pride and finished off as a symbol of haterd. many people have twisted the flag and its view to make it as a symbol of haterd not only against blacks, but jews, hispanics, catholics, and anyone who was not like them. Personally i do not think that there should have been a confederate flag in the first place because as the so called United States we shouldn't have ever divided ourselves.

Ok when i say it has turned out to now be a symbol of racism i mean that when the flag first came about it was all about southern pride and heritage and what not. but after the civil war when the KKK was created they used the flag as a symbol of haterd of minorities and when in the 50s when all the hate groups were becoming even more fired up against blacks they waved around that flag at all their meetings when they were saying i hate blacks, jews, and everybody who isn't me. some people now still see it as only a symbol of heritage, but you have to put yourself in a minorties body and see what we see when every time you see the flag it is always associated with somethingd bad as racism, what more can you think.

I don't think anyone said the war was just about slavery. It was about states rights and slavery because the question of states rights arose because of slavery. The thing is now the flag is associated with all the hate groups. They don't have the right to use it but it doesn't change the fact that they do use it. When everything is all done and said with all people will remember is that neo-nazi, kkk, and other hate groups used that flag.
I say i don't like to see the flag because all i see is hate.

I haven't been taught to only see hate. I actually used to believe that is wasn't racist, when everyone said it was. The thing is that when i started researching things like the Civil war and other things I realized the intentions of it weren't meant to be racist but it is now and there is nothing to change that.

Ya'll keep saying it wasn't over slavery. The reason the states succeeded to union wqas because of slavery. The issue of states right to govern and allow to have slaves is what caused the split. If there wasn't the issue of slavery i can bet there wouldn't have been a civil war.
How can a flag hold your heritage. There is no more Confederacy so you there shouldn't be the Confederate flag. How can you love a flag that represents separation?.
Like i said before you have to look from the other point of view. I've been on both sides and everytime i see that flag it is behind someone saying they agree with separation. take how you wanna, but in my eyes it is racist,

I never said the north was dead set against slavery or that northern states didn't have slaves so i don't know how that got into the agrument. Also they returned the slaves bcak because there was rewards, everybody is money hungry AND laws. Also those states that had slave in the north went with the succession with the south so then they were apart of the confederacy.
Poor people did have slaves. Most of the southerners yeah weren't rich enough to buy many slaves, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have slaves. Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. Also the states who were near the north weren't considered nothern states they were ocnsidered borderline states. And they did not suceede to the Confederacy.
I shouldn't have said if i did, slavery was the only reason. The slavery issue however was the largest issue and the one of most concern. Other factors like politcally stemmed from slavery because before they made the 3/4 compromise, people in the North said if they are just property then they shouldn't be counted toward the voting rep in Congress, but the Southerns disagreed because the more people the more reps you could have. That was one of the issues that started the Civil War.The South also suceeded because they though Lincolin was going to free slaves even though he never advocated abolishing slavery.
But back to the flag

I meant to ask ya'll before what Confederate do you love or whatever. Because for example Georgia's flag up until 2001 was not the original Confederate flag it was a Confederate flag put up to protest the Supreme court's decision on Brown vs. Board of Education.
The flag is a representation of slavery because there wasn't a confederate flag until the succession. What i don't understand is how you say you have an alliegence to a flag of a nonexistent place. There is no more Union or Confederacy it is simply the United States of America. Yeah the Confederacy consisted of southern states but doesn't mean that it should represent the states or what not.

finished sorry it was alot

[*kryogenix*]

the flag isn't racist. neither is the swastika. it's the ideas that were behind the two that are racist.

[WildGriffin]

the flag isn't racist. neither is the swastika. it's the ideas that were behind the two that are racist.

And when people flaunt it, it's fully racist. Most people have enough common sense not to parade an archaic symbol around that stands for hate. If you see some redneck or skinhead with a swastika/confederate flag, punch em in the stomach and show them what hate feels like when you're on the recieving end.

[WhiteChocolate]

And when people flaunt it, it's fully racist. Most people have enough common sense not to parade an archaic symbol around that stands for hate. If you see some redneck or skinhead with a swastika/confederate flag, punch em in the stomach and show them what hate feels like when you're on the recieving end.

That is a racist view in itself.

You are absolutely wrong. It must take someone who lives in the south to understand this. It doesn't represent the hatred that of course we allll have for black people, because you know, we're southern, so we must be a bunch of racists, right? (That was sarcasm)
No, it's about our heritage, it's about where we came from. If it's a symbol of hatred to you, then tough.

It's rediculous these days what people try to say is racist. It's freakin retarded and I, personally, am sick and tired of someone screaming "racist" over the stupidest crap.

[EmeraldKnight]

That is a racist view in itself.

You are absolutely wrong. It must take someone who lives in the south to understand this. It doesn't represent the hatred that of course we allll have for black people, because you know, we're southern, so we must be a bunch of racists, right? (That was sarcasm)
No, it's about our heritage, it's about where we came from. If it's a symbol of hatred to you, then tough.

It's rediculous these days what people try to say is racist. It's freakin retarded and I, personally, am sick and tired of someone screaming "racist" over the stupidest crap. 

I agree, I mean.. just because a minority of ppl may abuse it for racism, but that doesnt mean that we should classify southerners as a whole and discredit their heritage

Society tends to want to block out bad memories, and thats why the Confederate flag is looked down upon, because it represents southern heritage, but also a heritage that owned slaves, and ppl want to forget that part of history.. like in Germany.. how ppl try to completely block out the fact that Hitler ever was in power

[onenonly101]

the flag isn't racist. neither is the swastika. it's the ideas that were behind the two that are racist.

flags are a representation of something so therefore it could be racist.

No, it's about our heritage, it's about where we came from. If it's a symbol of hatred to you, then tough.

I'm from the South and i feel no connection to that flag why? because the flag was of the Confederacy a place that doesn't exist anymore. The flag came about because of the sucession of the Confederacy making their own "country" the flag representated that country and like i said before there is no Confederacy anymore so how can it hold the heritage and how can you love it. The flag represents separation and discrimination and a whole lot of unpositive things because of the way it is used. Nothing will change that fact.

[EmeraldKnight]

I'm from the South and i feel no connection to that flag why? because the flag was of the Confederacy a place that doesn't exist anymore. The flag came about because of the sucession of the Confederacy making their own "country" the flag representated that country and like i said before there is no Confederacy anymore so how can it hold the heritage and how can you love it. The flag represents separation and discrimination and a whole lot of unpositive things because of the way it is used. Nothing will change that fact.

The flag represents a period in Southern history, you CANNOT DENY THOSE YEARS, I mean. it'd be nice to be able to erase things from history, but you simply cant do that.. sure the Confederacy used it during the war, but to those soldiers defending their homes against the invading Union Army, the majority of them werent fighting for to uphold slavery, they were fighting to defend their homeland, you cannot disregard the valor and sacrificies made by the soldiers during that time period

[Jiggapin0]

The Confederates lost. Geez, get rid of your flag already. Hahaha.

[strice]

the flag itself isn't racist, but the people that were represented by it in the civil war were. its like say the art club has a lot of nice people but its still the art club not the nice people club.

[flyin_HAWAiiAN]

the flag itself isn't racist, but the people that were represented by it in the civil war were. its like say the art club has a lot of nice people but its still the art club not the nice people club.

i agree, its what the flag stands for, same as the swastika. people have a right to be proud of their heritage but the flag represents something that wasn't so nice. i think you should not use the flag however because it is offending to some people.

[WhiteChocolate]

The flag represents a period in Southern history, you CANNOT DENY THOSE YEARS, I mean. it'd be nice to be able to erase things from history, but you simply cant do that.. sure the Confederacy used it during the war, but to those soldiers defending their homes against the invading Union Army, the majority of them werent fighting for to uphold slavery, they were fighting to defend their homeland, you cannot disregard the valor and sacrificies made by the soldiers during that time period

EXACTLY!

The Confederates lost. Geez, get rid of your flag already. Hahaha.

No freakin' comment.

i agree, its what the flag stands for, same as the swastika. people have a right to be proud of their heritage but the flag represents something that wasn't so nice. i think you should not use the flag however because it is offending to some people.

I would like to say that I see your point, but I really don't. I respect you for your opinion, but I totally disagree that it should be banned. You must be FOR censorship, too, then?

[*kryogenix*]

flags are a representation of something so therefore it could be racist.

if that's true, then the flag only represents the south's secession from the union, not racism.

[juliar]

i agree, its what the flag stands for, same as the swastika. people have a right to be proud of their heritage but the flag represents something that wasn't so nice. i think you should not use the flag however because it is offending to some people.

Wait, last time I checked the COnfederate flag was a flag for the south, not for racism. Just because a majority of the people in the southh back in the old days were against blacks, doesnt mean that that flag is a symbol of hatred for blacks. It's 2004.
And also, just because it represents a period of time doesnt mean it represents the hate. I mean, I really don't see a huge picture of a black getting hung on there, do i?

[WildGriffin]

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in Germany were nazis during WW2 and they choose the swastika as their symbol.

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in the South were racist biggots during the revolutionay war and they choose the confederate flag as their symbol.

No difference. Go parade the swastika while you're at it. At least it's more recent.

If you're gonna celebrate a populaces "heritage" with their defeated symbol, go for it. The truth is, alot of people find it offensive. I'm sure people are in their right to wave some flag from way back when, but whoever said it was "2004" is basically right. Move on, find a new flag; not the flag that shows your ancestors mislead ways.

[pimpin231]

THE FLAG MEANS REBEL

[EmeraldKnight]

THE FLAG MEANS REBEL 

No comment

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in Germany were nazis during WW2 and they choose the swastika as their symbol.

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in the South were racist biggots during the revolutionay war and they choose the confederate flag as their symbol.

No difference. Go parade the swastika while you're at it. At least it's more recent.

There is a difference, there wasnt a majority of ppl that were Nazis in Germany, power was held and controlled strictly by a select few who used terror tactics to keep power.. a lot of ppl fought for the german army because they were afraid of what might happen to them or their families if they refused

The Conferderacy on the other hand, believed in their flag, not because it represented racism, only a SELECT MINORITY of the south were aristocratic slaveowners, most soliders didnt fight for slavery, they fought for their homeland, for their families, by erasing the flag from history erases all the courageous deeds done by the soldiers for what they believed in; thats the most important difference between the Confederate flag and the Nazi Swatstika, ppl believed in the flag, believed in it for a different reason than the connotation of slavery that most ppl think today

i think you should not use the flag however because it is offending to some people.

That's the exact same argument that the issue about the pledge of allegience brings up.. just because its offensive to some ppl, should we not say the pledge as well?

[juliar]

I agree with emerald...I mean, if it offends you, don't use it, don't look at it, don't address it. No one's telling you to.

[onenonly101]

When the flag is on the state capital it implies the visions behind the flag and that it is ok

[ComradeRed]

The Confederate Flag is part of history... it should be regarded as that, not as something racist.

My avatar is a Hitler smiley? Does that make me a Nazi? no.

[darkcoldplace]

doesn't seem racist to me but, anyways no comment otherwise.

[ComradeRed]

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in Germany were nazis during WW2 and they choose the swastika as their symbol.

A majority of people, not all, but a majority of them in the South were racist biggots during the revolutionay war and they choose the confederate flag as their symbol.

No difference. Go parade the swastika while you're at it. At least it's more recent.

If you're gonna celebrate a populaces "heritage" with their defeated symbol, go for it. The truth is, alot of people find it offensive. I'm sure people are in their right to wave some flag from way back when, but whoever said it was "2004" is basically right. Move on, find a new flag; not the flag that shows your ancestors mislead ways.

But the flag is just so cool!

Just for the record, the issue of states' rights that started the Civil War was NOT just over slavery. Another equally important issue was the Tariff. South wanted low, North wanted high. South Carolina threatened to Nullify the COnstitution in 1832. Was it because of slavery? NO. It was because the the tariff. When the Confederates wrote their constitution, they made extra sure to prevent high tariffs.

The Confederacy has had a lot of bad rap recently. Not to be a racist bigot, but if you actually bothered to read the Confederate Constitution, you can see that it was a MUCH better Constitution for a free society than the US Constitution, with the single exception, of course, of slavery. The US Constitution appears fascist by comparison.

If the Confederate Constitution were amended to abolish slavery, I would live under that over the Union Constitution any day.

Some reasons the Confederate Constituion would be better than the American one:

- One term limit for presidents: No FDR Dictatorship. We wouldn't have to worry about Bush being reelected.
- Banned the use of Riders on Bills: No "Protection of Children 2003 Act" that allows Congress to tax online products. This has actually happened.
- 2/3 Majority in Congress to approve new spending: Bye bye, $4 trillion deficit
- Abolished bounties. No secret police or FBI-hired hitmen.
- Internal improvements restricted. No longer can State A use its political clout to tkae money from State B--Federal authority restricted to federal matters.
- All spending bills rigidly defined: No social security act.
- Naturalization requirement removed for the Senate: Immigrants do not need to fulfill a residency requirement to run for Senate.
- The entire Bill of Rights in its entirety, with more emphasis on strict interpretation of powers: That means no PATRIOT Act, no BATF, etc.

Also remember that the South would have had NO political parties. Which means infinitely less corruption than there is today.

The Confederate Constitution contained ALL of the rights in the 1860 Union Constitution, PLUS new ones that would still serve us well today--the right to be free from unreasonable taxation, more restrictions on government pork.

As you can see--and I cannot emphasize this enough--IF IT ABOLISHED SLAVERY, which of course it didn't--The Confederacy would have been a MUCH freer and more just place to live than the Union. If the South won the Civil War, then abolsihed slavery, it--not the North--would be the Beacon of Democracy.

Had slavery not been an issue, it is clear that the South would have held the high moral ground--as it, in fact, did in 1861 (There weren't English people clamoring to support the North, were there?). Lincoln, the brillaint president he was, issued the Emancipation Proclamation TO STOP EUROPE FROM HELPING THE SOUTH. After issuing the said Proclamation, the North became the moral side, and the South became the "bad guys". It is sheer historical revisionism to say that the rest of the world looked upon the South as the "bad guys" in 1861 or 1862.

The last country to abolish slavery was Brazil in 1888. They did so relatively non-violently. Slavery was NOT economically sustainable. Slavery WAS going to die out by the late 1860s to early 1870s in the United States, considering it was not nearly as deeply rooted her as in Brazil. Had the South WON the civil war, we would be living in a much better society today.

I realize this is pure conjecture, but let me present this alternate history:
1861: Ft. Sumter; Civil War Begins; Trent Affair; Britsh intervene for the South and break the Union blockade
1862: General Baylor declares Arizona and New Mexico to be Confederate territories.
1863: Battle of Chancellorsville; Stonewall Jackson Survives; South wins Battle of Gettysburg; Britian puts diplomatic pressure on the North.
1864: Lincoln loses the election. McClellan, the democratic president, declares peace with the South.
1865: North and South sign a peace treaty and continue to exist as independent countries.
1867: Jefferson Davis's term as President ends; War Hero Robert E. Lee elected new presdient of the Confederacy
1868: Economic crisis in South.
Early 1870s: Compensated emancipation of slaves, brought on by Lee's demands and popularity, as well as economic reality. Remember that Lee ardently opposed slavery to begin with, and when the war was over, took communion with a black man. He was probably the LEAST racist of all generals in the Civil War.
1873: Lee's term as president expires; replaced by former Vice President Alexander Stephens.
1876: Southern Transcontinental railroad through New Mexico and Arizona.
1880s-1890s: Industrialization in South. Industrialization is carried out more equitably, due to the lack of a millionaire "trust" class.
1898: Spanish-American War; South and North unite to fight Spain. South acquires Cuba. Americans do not win as decisively, and thus, the Spanish are allowed to keep Phillipines. 10,000 American soldiers and 600,000 Philippinos lives are saved by not invading the Phillippines.
1903: Teddy Rooselvet becomes President of the North; Panama Canal Crisis. North acquires Panama Canal.
1912: Woodrow Wilson DEFEATED in election by the Republican candidate (remember that Wilson's support was based in the South). The Republican candidate adopts isolationism. America never gets involved in World War I.
1917: World War I ends with a peace treaty between Britain and Germany. Civil war in Russia; Germans, British, and French invade Russia and defeat teh Bolsheviks, who have less support than in real life. Monarchs remain in power in Germany and Russia.
1929: Stock market crash. Low Southern Tariffs prevent the total collapse and the Great Depression becomes just a minor recession, while a helathy Germany prevents collapse in Europe. Financial aid to North from Europe and South.
1932: Hoover defeats FDR in a razor-thin margin.
1933: Hitler runs for Chancellor. Soundly defeated by the healthy economy.
1935: Hitler's second coup. Fails again and Hitler is put in jail for the last time.
1937: Second Sino-Japanese War, North and Czarist Russia help China, Japanese defeated.

[EmeraldKnight]

A little obsessed there, eh Minda?

[ComradeRed]

Ok so my post was a little long... I was writing LD CFL cases and I was bored... needed an excuse to procrastinate. Besides, I love alt hists.

[EmeraldKnight]

CFL? haha alt hists is great.. have you read the books by Harry Turtledove? (its not off topic cuz its about the confederacy and if they won the war..)

[ComradeRed]

CFL? haha alt hists is great.. have you read the books by Harry Turtledove? (its not off topic cuz its about the confederacy and if they won the war..)

I haven't read any of his works, no.

CFL = Catholic Forensics League (sometimes written as NCFL, National Catholic Forensics League). They're like teh NFL's evil twin.

[EmeraldKnight]

Oh, haha, i dont think we have that here.. maybe we do, but I'm kinda clueless, haha

[ComradeRed]

Oh, haha, i dont think we have that here.. maybe we do, but I'm kinda clueless, haha

Well their Grand National Tournament is in Boston, Puritan Hell, as opposed to Salt Lake, Mormon Hell, so I guess that's better.

Just think of them as the NFL's evil twin.

[EmeraldKnight]

Why evil?

[ComradeRed]

Why evil?

Have you ever heard of a not-evil twin?

Mostly, they're evil cause they have their Grand National Tournament during my school's graduation so our seniors can't go.

[EmeraldKnight]

Have you ever heard of a not-evil twin?

Yes, in fact I have

Mostly, they're evil cause they have their Grand National Tournament during my school's graduation so our seniors can't go.

Hahaha Yes that is me sticking out my tongue at you

[T00000]

um back on topic, i do think the confederate flag is racist. i live in the south as well, and i'm not black, but i still think it's racist. the flag was only used during the 4 years the civil war was going on. the flag was a symbol of rebellion- the south wanting to break from the united states. and why did they want to break from the US? Because the north wanted to ban slavery. it's a symbol used to fight for slaves. and most people know it's wrong, but the flag is representing a time when people in the south thought it was right, and were willing to die for it. okay i know that most the people who fought on the south were poor and from little shacks and didn't have slaves, but they were fighting for their side-- and their side wanted slaves. people in the south aren't using it to be proud of their heritage or whatever, because it represented a span of about 15 years of rebellion. that is in no way representing heritage. or at least any heritage to be proud of... But if you ARE proud of it enough to display it, that means you agree with their cause and are indeed racist. or at least agree with the south's old idea that slaves should be legal. which to me sounds racist, because it's stating that blacks are able to be owned and have no purpose of life other than to serve whites. the definition of racism is thinking a race is inferior to one's own. and to make a black a slave means you think they're inferior to you, and that they should be allowed to do your work for you and not even get paid.

[machinoman]

im sick of people bashing the south. the south shouldn't be judged by their actions, but rather by their inspiring notions of freedom!

[EmeraldKnight]

the flag was only used during the 4 years the civil war was going on. the flag was a symbol of rebellion- the south wanting to break from the united states. and why did they want to break from the US? Because the north wanted to ban slavery

No, you're generalizing a lot.. like I've stated over and over.. onli a select minority of the south actually were aristocratic landowners.. the rest didnt care about slavery.. it'd be like generaliztion the US as a bunch of wealthy corporate businessmen, which of course is not the case

it's a symbol used to fight for slaves. and most people know it's wrong, but the flag is representing a time when people in the south thought it was right, and were willing to die for it; okay i know that most the people who fought on the south were poor and from little shacks and didn't have slaves, but they were fighting for their side-- and their side wanted slaves.

Its not, they fought to defend their homeland.. if foreigner invaded your home, would you not fight against them, regardless of what label politicians placed on your side? the politicians perhaps advocated slavery, but the common soldier did not

people in the south aren't using it to be proud of their heritage or whatever, because it represented a span of about 15 years of rebellion.

So that 15 years just disappears from history, as if it never happened? if it didnt, its part of their heritage, you cannot selectively disregard the parts of history you dont like

that is in no way representing heritage. or at least any heritage to be proud of... But if you ARE proud of it enough to display it, that means you agree with their cause and are indeed racist

... so by being proud of the American flag during WWII would make you racist against Japanese? since the US did send thousands of Japanese into internment camps and discriminate against them.. so if you're proud of American history in general, you're racist? that's basically what you're saying.. think of what the US did to all the Native Americans, they invaded, killed them, and sent them to camps to make way for their settlers, is that not racist?

the definition of racism is thinking a race is inferior to one's own

by your definition and your argument.. its racist to be proud of American history

or at least agree with the south's old idea that slaves should be legal

Like i have stated endlessly.. it was just a select minority.. the majority either fought for their homeland (and had no control over what their politicians did) or were drafted (if they refused, they were killed) so what could they do? several of the foremost southern leaders werent in favor of slavery.. take Robert E. Lee, the foremost leader/general in the south, he was against slavery but did what his homeland requested of him

[machinoman]

Its not, they fought to defend their homeland.. if foreigner invaded your home, would you not fight against them, regardless of what label politicians placed on your side? the politicians perhaps advocated slavery, but the common soldier did not

no... they fought to seperate from the union. not exactly a defensive move.

[juliar]

um back on topic, i do think the confederate flag is racist.  i live in the south as well, and i'm not black, but i still think it's racist.  the flag was only used during the 4 years the civil war was going on.  the flag was a symbol of rebellion- the south wanting to break from the united states.  and why did they want to break from the US?  Because the north wanted to ban slavery.  it's a symbol used to fight for slaves.  and most people know it's wrong, but the flag is representing a time when people in the south thought it was right, and were willing to die for it.  okay i know that most the people who fought on the south were poor and from little shacks and didn't have slaves, but they were fighting for their side-- and their side wanted slaves.  people in the south aren't using it to be proud of their heritage or whatever, because it represented a span of about 15 years of rebellion.  that is in no way representing heritage.  or at least any heritage to be proud of... But if you ARE proud of it enough to display it, that means you agree with their cause and are indeed racist.  or at least agree with the south's old idea that slaves should be legal.  which to me sounds racist, because it's stating that blacks are able to be owned and have no purpose of life other than to serve whites.  the definition of racism is thinking a race is inferior to one's own.  and to make a black a slave means you think they're inferior to you, and that they should be allowed to do your work for you and not even get paid.

The Confederacy did NOT want to secede because of slavery. They wanted to secede because of tariffs, because the North had more power in Congress. Slavery was a minor reason they taught to 3rd graders so that they wouldnt be confused about life then.
Yes, it's a symbol of rebellion.
Yea they thought slavery was right back then, but earlier than that the North did too. The whole of America used to be pro-slavery. Our American flag is bad?

Ah, Emerald owned you.

[ComradeRed]

um back on topic, i do think the confederate flag is racist.  i live in the south as well, and i'm not black, but i still think it's racist.  the flag was only used during the 4 years the civil war was going on.  the flag was a symbol of rebellion- the south wanting to break from the united states.  and why did they want to break from the US?  Because the north wanted to ban slavery.  it's a symbol used to fight for slaves.  and most people know it's wrong, but the flag is representing a time when people in the south thought it was right, and were willing to die for it.  okay i know that most the people who fought on the south were poor and from little shacks and didn't have slaves, but they were fighting for their side-- and their side wanted slaves.  people in the south aren't using it to be proud of their heritage or whatever, because it represented a span of about 15 years of rebellion.  that is in no way representing heritage.  or at least any heritage to be proud of... But if you ARE proud of it enough to display it, that means you agree with their cause and are indeed racist.  or at least agree with the south's old idea that slaves should be legal.  which to me sounds racist, because it's stating that blacks are able to be owned and have no purpose of life other than to serve whites.  the definition of racism is thinking a race is inferior to one's own.  and to make a black a slave means you think they're inferior to you, and that they should be allowed to do your work for you and not even get paid.

For the record, the North never wanted to ban slavery until 1863, and even then as a political move.

NEVER did Lincoln advocate banning slavery. EVER.

"If I could save the Union and free the slaves, I would do that. If I could save the Union and free no slaves, I would do that. And if I could save the Union and free some slaves while leaving others alone, I would do that too."
--Lincoln, 1862--after the war already started.

The AMERICAN flag is a symbol of rebellion! We broke away from the grand old British Empire!

And aside from slavery, the Confederacy has a lot to be proud of. They created a Constitution and enforced it much better than the Union did. The average Confederate soldier had fair officesr and enjoyed much more freedom than the average Union soldier who usually had corrupt officers.

Machinoman, seceding from an existing country IS definitionally a defensive move. When you secede, you nullify oppressive laws that are aimed against you. You are NOT seeking to inavde the other country.

Did the South want to conquer Washington? No. They just wanted to be left alone.

[machinoman]

Machinoman, seceding from an existing country IS definitionally a defensive move. When you secede, you nullify oppressive laws that are aimed against you. You are NOT seeking to inavde the other country.

I never claimed it was an offensive move; I'm just saying attacking the north for not agreeing with their policies in order to seperate from them is about as defensive as kicking someone you disagree with.

[ComradeRed]

I never claimed it was an offensive move; I'm just saying attacking the north for not agreeing with their policies in order to seperate from them is about as defensive as kicking someone you disagree with.

The North attacked first. After a state of war is declared the South had the right to invade the North TO GET THE NORTH TO SUE FOR PEACE. The invasion of Pennsylvania wasn't to conquer land, it was to destroy northern morale.

It would have been defensive of teh American Colonists to land an army in Great Britain to force George III to move his armies back home and stop attacking the US.

[machinoman]

The North attacked first. After a state of war is declared the South had the right to invade the North TO GET THE NORTH TO SUE FOR PEACE. The invasion of Pennsylvania wasn't to conquer land, it was to destroy northern morale.

It would have been defensive of teh American Colonists to land an army in Great Britain to force George III to move his armies back home and stop attacking the US.

Ahhh... so when fighting is appropriate, like in boxing, the first blow acts as a defensive maneuver. It was a little hard to grasp at first, but now I got it.

Also, the north never declared war against the south, the first move was southern.

[ComradeRed]

Ahhh... so when fighting is appropriate, like in boxing, the first blow acts as a defensive maneuver. It was a little hard to grasp at first, but now I got it.

Also, the north never declared war against the south, the first move was southern.

Lincoln sent troops to reinforce Ft. Sumter in order to blockade Charleston Harbor. According to modern rules of warfare, a blockade constitutes a declaration of war.

[machinoman]

Lincoln sent troops to reinforce Ft. Sumter in order to blockade Charleston Harbor. According to modern rules of warfare, a blockade constitutes a declaration of war.

The blockade was declared on April 19, 1861.
The first shots of the Civil War were fired by Confederate guns on Fort Johnson in the morning of April 12, 1861. I was there. How could you be so right about Allah and so wrong about this?

[ComradeRed]

The blockade was declared on April 19, 1861.
The first shots of the Civil War were fired by Confederate guns on Fort Johnson in the morning of April 12, 1861. I was there. How could you be so right about Allah and so wrong about this?

Yes the first shots were fired by Confederate gusn on Fort SUMTER. But the fort itself was blockading the port of charleston.

[machinoman]

It was a declared blockade yet. It wasn't officially a blockade.

[ComradeRed]

It was a declared blockade yet. It wasn't officially a blockade.

It was a blockade de facto.

[machinoman]

It was a blockade de facto.

You are a blockade de facto.


"There are three sides to every argument: The right side, the wrong side, and the bottom side. And the front side." - Anonymous

[EmeraldKnight]

What IS de facto?

[WhiteChocolate]

And ermm...didn't stupid Lincoln BREAK the constitution? Yeah. The worst president ever.

[ComradeRed]

And ermm...didn't stupid Lincoln BREAK the constitution? Yeah. The worst president ever.

De facto means IN FACT.

EVERY President broke the COnstitution. Lincoln is one of our best presidents, because he had the guts to try and fix it after it was done.

"It is better to tear a few holes in the Constitution and mend it later than to lose it altogether."
--Abe Lincoln.

Compare this to a president, say FDR or LBJ who simply believed the Constitution DIDNT MATTER. THEY are probably the worst presidents.

[T00000]

So that 15 years just disappears from history, as if it never happened? if it didnt, its part of their heritage, you cannot selectively disregard the parts of history you dont like

That's true, but out of the 228 years the South was part of the United States, people choose to display a flag representing 4 years of rebellion?

... so by being proud of the American flag during WWII would make you racist against Japanese? since the US did send thousands of Japanese into internment camps and discriminate against them.. so if you're proud of American history in general, you're racist? that's basically what you're saying.. think of what the US did to all the Native Americans, they invaded, killed them, and sent them to camps to make way for their settlers, is that not racist?

it's impossible for me to be racist against Japanese, because I am Japanese. But besides that, the American flag wasn't designed during the internment of the Japanese, and the American flag didn't represent their quest to keep one race under the control of another.

-quote-the definition of racism is thinking a race is inferior to one's own-unquote-


by your definition and your argument.. its racist to be proud of American history

No because "American" isn't a race.

Like i have stated endlessly.. it was just a select minority.. the majority either fought for their homeland (and had no control over what their politicians did) or were drafted (if they refused, they were killed) so what could they do? several of the foremost southern leaders werent in favor of slavery.. take Robert E. Lee, the foremost leader/general in the south, he was against slavery but did what his homeland requested of him

True, the war was not all about slavery. But when you say they fought for their homeland, you must realize that their homeland was the United States of America, and that their fight was not in defense, but was one forcibly rebelling against their own country.

The AMERICAN flag is a symbol of rebellion! We broke away from the grand old British Empire!

First, this isn't a question of REBELLION. It's a question of RACISM. Tell me how and when the American flag was a symbol of rebelling in order to keep blacks slaves with no meaning of life. The Americans rebelled from the British to be independant and free from ridiculous Brittish taxes. True, the South's arguement was not ALL about slavery, but slavery was PART of the reason of erecting the flag, and the factor that sparked the differences between the two sides.

And the flag is a symbol of the South's quest for independence- because the North WAS trying to abolish slavery, many people in the North were. The South got angered because new states were being developed, and there was always a battle between whether or not the state would be a slave state or a free state. The South feared that if there were more free states than slave states, congress would vote to abolish slavery. This was one of the main reasons why South Carolina basically began the war by seceeding from the Union. This is why slavery was a major contributing factor in this war.

Now I will say again, "Racism" is thinking a race is inferior to their own. This thread is about racism. Now who will argue against the fact that by enslaving a particular race and making them work for no pay, and treating them like animals is racism? Who disagrees? Displaying a flag that stands for the South's rebellion is displaying a flag that stands for many things, but most of all, racism.

Ah, Emerald owned you.

Oh darling, I think not.

[ComradeRed]

That's true, but out of the 228 years the South was part of the United States, people choose to display a flag representing 4 years of rebellion?

Why do we display the old 13-star Ross flag, even though it represented 2 years of rebellion in our 400 year history? No one celebrates conformity. It's like in the stock market. Every day, BILLIONS of dollars change hands WITHOUT INCIDENT. Do we focus on that? No. We focus on the rare scandals like Enron. As I said, conformity is all around us. We don't have to celebrate it.

it's impossible for me to be racist against Japanese, because I am Japanese.  But besides that, the American flag wasn't designed during the internment of the Japanese, and the American flag didn't represent their quest to keep one race under the control of another.

You can be a self-loathing Japanese.

America's flag was designed during a Revolution, that was fought IN PART to protect slavery. England abolished slavery in the early 1830s, we waited for 30 more years. While slavery was not a major issue during the Revolution, it WAS an issue. It helped to actually convince teh Southern Colonies to defend New England (taxation without representation didn't hurt the Carolinas as much as it hurt Massachusetts, which was dependent on trade and such).

True, the war was not all about slavery.  But when you say they fought for their homeland, you must realize that their homeland was the United States of America, and that their fight was not in defense, but was one forcibly rebelling against their own country.

Their homeland was the land they were living on. To say that the Southerners homeland was the United States is like saying Kurds are Iraqis or Palestinians are Israelis, or that American Colonials were British. While technically true, it is STILL a defensive rebellion if all you seek is independence. We were technically British in 1770s and 1780s. The American Revolution was against our own leaders. That was the point. If it was against foreigners, it would be a war, not a revolution.

To sum: To say that Southerners were Americans in 1860 is like saying Palestinians are Israelis. It's technically true, but just semantically incorrect.

First, this isn't a question of REBELLION.  It's a question of RACISM.  Tell me how and when the American flag was a symbol of rebelling in order to keep blacks slaves with no meaning of life.  The Americans rebelled from the British to be independant and free from ridiculous Brittish taxes.  True, the South's arguement was not ALL about slavery, but slavery was PART of the reason of erecting the flag, and the factor that sparked the differences between the two sides.

As I mentioned before, slavery WAS an issue. Southern Planation owners supported the new country even though they were not being hit by taxes, which were mainly mercantile taxes. Why? Because they would have more control over the new government to secure slavery. Moreover, if you read the Constitution, it basically acknowledged (or used to, before the Thirteenth Amendment) the legitimacy of slavery: In one area, it prohibits the importation of slaves after the year 1808 but protects the status of slaveowners beyond that.

The highest law of the land supported slavery until 1865. It was ONE issue, not THE issue. Likewise in the Civil War slavery was ONE issue, not THE issue. I posted a link to a copy of the Confederate Constitution earlier... Reading the Confederate Constitution shows that, ASIDE FROM SLAVERY, the South was developing a system far freer and far more democratic than the North's system. That's why the South was in the moral "right" prior to 1863.

And the flag is a symbol of the South's quest for independence- because the North WAS trying to abolish slavery, many people in the North were.  The South got angered because new states were being developed, and there was always a battle between whether or not the state would be a slave state or a free state.  The South feared that if there were more free states than slave states, congress would vote to abolish slavery.  This was one of the main reasons why South Carolina basically began the war by seceeding from the Union.  This is why slavery was a major contributing factor in this war.

Abolition was a MINORITY MOVEMENT. Lincoln NEVER, EVER advocated abolishing slavery. In fact, Lincoln would most likely have vetoed any abolition bill, because he was most interested in protecting the Union. Lincoln proposed a policy of containment of slavery. The South was afraid of the slippery slope. When South Carolina's legislature voted to secede, there was STILL a sectional balance. New Mexico and Arizona were BOTH probably going to enter as slave states, to build a Southern transcontinental railroad. To say that, in lieu of civil war, slavery would have been abolished, is pure historical revisionism.

Now I will say again, "Racism" is thinking a race is inferior to their own.  This thread is about racism.  Now who will argue against the fact that by enslaving a particular race and making them work for no pay, and treating them like animals is racism?  Who disagrees?  Displaying a flag that stands for the South's rebellion is displaying a flag that stands for many things, but most of all, racism.

Displaying the Southern flag can also be displaying something that stands for Low Tariffs. Or an Independent Post Office. Or under-control Government Spending.

Slavery was only ONE of MANY issues at stake. The South feared a slippery slope that would lead to bigger government once containment was in place. The CSA Constitution reflects this year. The Southern Constitution contains EVERY RIGHT in the Bill of RIghts, and then some other rights that are SORELY NEEDED TODAY. The Southern Constitution restrained government to a much more effective level. With the Southern Constitution, we would NOT have a multi-trillion dollar deficit, huge entitlement programs, and civil liberties restrictions like PATRIOT.

Slavery was ECONOMICALLY DOOMED TO FAILURE. While the Southern Constitution has one racist clause in it protecting the rights of the holders of "enslaved negro persons", it was otherwise in my opinion a much more democratic Constitution than our own.

There were 15 major changes between the USA and CSA Constitution. Of those, only 5 had to do with slavery. Of those 5, 3 protected slavery, while 2 actually WEAKENED slavery by prohibiting further importation of slaves. The other changes set restrictions on government spending, required legislative supermajority on key issues, created an independent post office (which we FINALLY did 100 years after the Civil War), abolished legislative "riders" (this would effectively had killed the US PATRIOT Act) and set a one-term limit for President. THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO TODAY AS IS PATENTLY CLEAR TO ANYONE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE KIND OF STUFF THAT OUR CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS PULLING.

Here's the link to the CSA Constitution, with a summary of the major changes: http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/books/co...n-csa-xtra.html

[juliar]

To add on to my argument..Lincoln once said

If I could keep the slaves in slavery [or something like that] and keep the Union together, I would.

Show any significance of slavery in the war?

[ComradeRed]

To add on to my argument..Lincoln once said

Show any significance of slavery in the war?

The full quote, which I already posted earlier, is:

"If I could save the Union by not freeing any slaves, I would do that. And if I could save the Union by freeing all of the slaves, I would do that. And if I could save the Union by freeing some slaves and leaving others alone, then I would do that too."
--President Abe Lincoln

[Spirited Away]

What IS de facto?

I haven't picked a side yet.. but to answer your question:

De facto means by fact as opposed to de jure (by law). These two terms usually refer to discrimination.

An example de facto is housing patterns in a city: All blacks, whites, asians, hispanics in segregated areas of the city.

An example of de jure is a law that would allow or support discrimination. Perhaps one that says whites are able to eat at this restaurant, but blacks are not. Those laws have been eliminated since 1960s.

EDIT::

What they (comradered and machinoman) meant by de facto blockade, I think, was that the blockade was 'understood' by fact, to be a sign of war.

[T00000]

America's flag was designed during a Revolution, that was fought IN PART to protect slavery. England abolished slavery in the early 1830s, we waited for 30 more years. While slavery was not a major issue during the Revolution, it WAS an issue. It helped to actually convince teh Southern Colonies to defend New England (taxation without representation didn't hurt the Carolinas as much as it hurt Massachusetts, which was dependent on trade and such).

however we earned our independence from great britain more than 60 years before britain abolished slavery. so slavery was NOT an issue, because britain agreed with it as well. Also, I know you live in PA and not the south, you don't see to what extent people display the confederate flag. I have seen far more people display the confederate flag here in GA then I have seen people display the Ross flag in Portland, or PA, in all the years of my life, combined.

Slavery was only ONE of MANY issues at stake.

Exactly- and those who display the confederate flag aren't very educated. okay ComradeRed, if you display the confederate flag it wouldn't be racist, but those who do tend to have their confederate flag prominently displayed on their worn out pick up trucks driving around in rural Georgia, and sometimes they stray to Atlanta where we see them. I doubt they have your intellect and know the true meaning behind the war. Most people view the war as one of slavery. And those who put the confederate flag generally think of it as that as well. If they know all you know, and come up with some EXCUSE to put the flag up, they still know the controversy behind displaying it. And also, please dont get into analogies with different countries and such, because it isn't the same.

To say that the Southerners homeland was the United States is like saying Kurds are Iraqis or Palestinians are Israelis, or that American Colonials were British.

No, the South's homeland WAS the United States, because they never won the war. They were never part of something different than the US. The Palestinians aren't considered Israelis because both sides have made the effort to distinguish the difference. This argument is on whether or not this flag is racist, and I am just saying that this flag IS racist because the majority of the US believes that slavery was the reason behind the Civil War. If they had taken the time to research it, then sure, they'd realize that it WASN'T, but most people THINK it is, and the people who display the flag think it is as well. This is why the flag is racist. Because those displaying it THINK it is.

Also, sure you can be a self loathing Japanese, but I am not. Because I'm only half japanese.

[ComradeRed]

however we earned our independence from great britain more than 60 years before britain abolished slavery.  so slavery was NOT an issue, because britain agreed with it as well.  Also, I know you live in PA and not the south, you don't see to what extent people display the confederate flag.  I have seen far more people display the confederate flag here in GA then I have seen people display the Ross flag in Portland, or PA, in all the years of my life, combined.

I saw quite a few Confederate flags on sale in South Bend, Indiana. But then again, Indiana is sort of the South. How much people display something shouldn't matter to the content, should it?

Exactly- and those who display the confederate flag aren't very educated.  okay ComradeRed, if you display the confederate flag it wouldn't be racist, but those who do tend to have their confederate flag prominently displayed on their worn out pick up trucks driving around in rural Georgia, and sometimes they stray to Atlanta where we see them.  I doubt they have your intellect and know the true meaning behind the war.  Most people view the war as one of slavery.  And those who put the confederate flag generally think of it as that as well.  If they know all you know, and come up with some EXCUSE to put the flag up, they still know the controversy behind displaying it.  And also, please dont get into analogies with different countries and such, because it isn't the same.

Fine, then THEY are racist. Not the Confederate flag. And why isn't it the same?

No, the South's homeland WAS the United States, because they never won the war.  They were never part of something different than the US.  The Palestinians aren't considered Israelis because both sides have made the effort to distinguish the difference.  This argument is on whether or not this flag is racist, and I am just saying that this flag IS racist because the majority of the US believes that slavery was the reason behind the Civil War.  If they had taken the time to research it, then sure, they'd realize that it WASN'T, but most people THINK it is, and the people who display the flag think it is as well.  This is why the flag is racist.  Because those displaying it THINK it is.

Okay, so their homeland IS the United States. That isn't teh same case in 1861, when they didn't know if they were going to win or lose.

If people displaying it THINK it's racist, that doesn't mean it actually IS. That just means they are racist.

Also, sure you can be a self loathing Japanese, but I am not. Because I'm only half japanese.

Then you can be racist on both counts.

i think that it kind of is becasue it was created because southern states wanted blacks to be slaves....

[juliar]

i think that it kind of is becasue it was created because southern states wanted blacks to be slaves....

Did you read any of the arguments we had?

This is why the flag is racist.  Because those displaying it THINK it is.

They think it, but they're not using the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate, they're using it as a symbol of the Confederacy. Which [i dont think] is completely racist.

[T00000]

they're not using the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate, they're using it as a symbol of the Confederacy. Which [i dont think] is completely racist.

yes well in their educated pick up driving beaten up cars, there are people in it who aren't members of createblog. they still believe that the flag stands for slavery, because that's exactly what has been beaten over our heads from first grade to high school. and think, how many of them has any education past high school? if they were educated at all, they wouldn't display the flag because of it's controversy.

[ComradeRed]

yes well in their educated pick up driving beaten up cars, there are people in it who aren't members of createblog. they still believe that the flag stands for slavery, because that's exactly what has been beaten over our heads from first grade to high school. and think, how many of them has any education past high school? if they were educated at all, they wouldn't display the flag because of it's controversy.

To the contrary, educated people are MORE likely to engage and display controversial acts, because they CAN form their own opinion instead of just going along with the crowd. All you proved is that Southern hicks think the Confederate flag is racist, not that it is.

[Spirited Away]

I think I can see where TBoltzbabe is going with this.

Now lets just say that the flag is not a symbol of slavery. However, looking at the stand point of those who parents/grandparents were slaves, they would feel that the flag itself represents cruelty.

Those who display the flag proudly may not have any intent of flaunting the flag as a symbol of superiority, but those who suffered will see it that way.

It's sort of like psychology. Remember Pavlov's experiment with dogs, when they hear a chimming sound, they instantly drool thinking that they will be served food?
And the expiriment where a child was 'taught' to be scared of bunnies/rats? (If you don't know, I will elaborate).

The flag, in this example, is tantamount to the chime sounds and the noise that scares the child into thinking the bunny/rat was evil.

The experiments reflect human behavior as well.

People who lived during that era as slaves will retain the memory that the flag represents oppression and suffering. It's in their natural behavior to hate the flag. It's no surprise that their children will find the flag offensive as well.

[ComradeRed]

So some people find it offensive. Others might not. So what? I have the right to offend people. It says so in the First Amendment.

I can percieve ANYTHING to be racist. That doesn't mean it actually is.

[Spirited Away]

So some people find it offensive. Others might not. So what? I have the right to offend people. It says so in the First Amendment.

I can percieve ANYTHING to be racist. That doesn't mean it actually is.

Right, but the offending object is being questioned here.

We're debating whether or not it's racists. I would say that it's a point of view thing.

[JlIaTMK]

the flag isnt racist
the history behind it is....

and since we're talking about it.... Abraham Lincoln's goal for the war wasn't to rid slavery.... it was to keep the country together.... if slavery kept the country together, than he would keep it

[Mr. Psychotic]

i didnt read that much posts here but yeah the confederate flag isnt racist. its a damn piece of cloth oh yeah that is going to have hate feelings

[EmeraldKnight]

This topic's still going on? eesh..

Well.. a very good point was brought up (good job )

Right, but the offending object is being questioned here.

We're debating whether or not it's racists. I would say that it's a point of view thing.

It is a point of view.. everything is a point of view.. everyone has their own POV, their own biases.. I think the issue at hand should be which idea is prevalent.. I mean.. some people's minds.. simply cannot be changed.. there will always be disagreements.. the solution should be one to satisfy as many people as possible..

Beyond that.. I'm not realli going to post new arguments.. since I've brought them up earlier and I dont want to go back and read the posts.. <--is lazy

[Spirited Away]

some people's minds.. simply cannot be changed..

As Thomas Paine puts it: "Time makes more converts than reason".

Although it may seem to some of us as if the Civil War happened eons ago and is of no concern to us, the truth of it is that our country is still very young compared to others. There are many people who suffered slavery and passed on their stories to their children and their children's children, and so on. There are people who resent slavery and will think of the flag still as a symbol of hatred and discrimination.

There is no way to erase that past. There will always be people who lives in the present but dwells on the past and there is no changing their minds about something they adamently hates UNLESS they realize it themselves.

[ThunderEvermore]

85% of southern land owners did not own slaves during and around the civil war.

Learned that one in school.

[Spirited Away]

85% of southern land owners did not own slaves during and around the civil war.

Learned that one in school.

And you are arguing for....?

[ThunderEvermore]

Well I would say the flag isnt really racist.

Either way, a tid bit of information for you all.

[EmeraldKnight]

Well I would say the flag isnt really racist.

Either way, a tid bit of information for you all.

Exactly.. *sigh* i believe I mentioned that fact already.. way back on the first page.. but anyways.. no material possession is racist.. racism is concieved in one's mind.. some see it as racist, and others do not.. its like uninspiredfae put it.. unless we say.. brainwash everyone into the same way of thinking.. there will always be disputes about it

[onenonly101]

Ok the dicussion kinda differ from racism into slavery what thunder said really has nothing to do with it being racist. Just because 15% didn't own slaves doesn't mean they weren't racist

[EmeraldKnight]

Ok the dicussion kinda differ from racism into slavery what thunder said really has nothing to do with it being racist. Just because 15% didn't own slaves doesn't mean they weren't racist

And what about what the rest of us said? Its a flag.. and its in the past.. you cannot selectively eliminate portions of the past simply because you do not like them.. events happened and unless you bulid a time machine.. they are there and regardless of their appeal, they still made the world the way it is today

[stryker76]

I'm from the South and i feel no connection to that flag why? because the flag was of the Confederacy a place that doesn't exist anymore. The flag came about because of the sucession of the Confederacy making their own "country" the flag representated that country and like i said before there is no Confederacy anymore so how can it hold the heritage and how can you love it. The flag represents separation and discrimination and a whole lot of unpositive things because of the way it is used. Nothing will change that fact.

They flag generally repersents that yes.....but that isnt y its still around.....do you kno y the southern states separated them selves from the union....there state rights. The southern states felt that the union was imposing on there state rights.....the right to own slaves was only one of those....a very small reason...but yet the most known....much of the debate between the two was over state taxing and not following rules made by the national governement.....the flag now represents the struggle the southern states went through the defend there statehood rights.....people keep the flag because they feel that the national governement is still too powerful.....these people feel that a state governement should be more powerful then the national governement....thats what the flag represents...not racism......people are racist...not symbols....its the people choosing to make that symbol represent that......and for sayin that the Confedrate flag represents separation and discrimination then well your not much better then those that believe that is what it is......learn the heritage behind it....and ask people y they fly that flag...then form your opinion......

[EmeraldKnight]

They flag generally repersents that yes.....but that isnt y its still around.....do you kno y the southern states separated them selves from the union....there state rights. The southern states felt that the union was imposing on there state rights.....the right to own slaves was only one of those....a very small reason...but yet the most known....much of the debate between the two was over state taxing and not following rules made by the national governement.....the flag now represents the struggle the southern states went through the defend there statehood rights.....people keep the flag because they feel that the national governement is still too powerful.....these people feel that a state governement should be more powerful then the national governement....thats what the flag represents...not racism......people are racist...not symbols....its the people choosing to make that symbol represent that......and for sayin that the Confedrate flag represents separation and discrimination then well your not much better then those that believe that is what it is......learn the heritage behind it....and ask people y they fly that flag...then form your opinion......

Thank you.. good job, you know your stuff... too many ppl here state stereotypical arguments with no evidence or basis for them..

[onenonly101]

the flag now represents the struggle the southern states went through the defend there statehood rights.....people keep the flag because they feel that the national governement is still too powerful.....these people feel that a state governement should be more powerful then the national governement....thats what the flag represents...not racism......people are racist...not symbols....its the people choosing to make that symbol represent that......and for sayin that the Confedrate flag represents separation and discrimination then well your not much better then those that believe that is what it is......learn the heritage behind it....and ask people y they fly that flag...then form your opinion......

Flag representing separation is true, because the flag was made in defiance of the union and when the South suceeded so therefore it was a separation of the united states. The discrimination part is more of an opinion of mine.

Symbols can be racist. The burning cross=KKK

But I think the flag now represents racism. When the flag first came about no it didn't like you said, but now it does also represent racism, because of what happened mostly in the 50s.

[EmeraldKnight]

The discrimination part is more of an opinion of mine.

Yes, exactly.. its your opinion.. I dont suppose you have evidence for it, do you?

But I think the flag now represents racism. When the flag first came about no it didn't like you said, but now it does also represent racism, because of what happened mostly in the 50s.

What happened in the 50s? I'm not up to date on US history I'm afraid.. that's next year

[ComradeRed]

Ok the dicussion kinda differ from racism into slavery what thunder said really has nothing to do with it being racist. Just because 15% didn't own slaves doesn't mean they weren't racist

Uh... try more like 95% didn't own slaves.

[EmeraldKnight]

Uh... try more like 95% didn't own slaves.

Ok, if you present a statistic, might you add where the statistic is found? (although 95% seems a lot more reasonable than 15%)

[ComradeRed]

Ok, if you present a statistic, might you add where the statistic is found? (although 95% seems a lot more reasonable than 15%)

My history book puts it at 5/6 -- that's about 83%. And even then, most of those people are people who own only one or two slaves, and work in the fields alongside their slaves. Only about 1,500 families in 1860 owned more than 200 slaves (a large plantation).

[EmeraldKnight]

My history book puts it at 5/6 -- that's about 83%. And even then, most of those people are people who own only one or two slaves, and work in the fields alongside their slaves. Only about 1,500 families in 1860 owned more than 200 slaves (a large plantation).

Exactly, I think that point has been said over and over again.. but no one seems to be seeing it...

[ComradeRed]

What point? I just brought up some stats.

[EmeraldKnight]

What point? I just brought up some stats. 

The point that the majority of Southerners didnt own slaves

[saintsaens]

That is a racist view in itself.

You are absolutely wrong. It must take someone who lives in the south to understand this. It doesn't represent the hatred that of course we allll have for black people, because you know, we're southern, so we must be a bunch of racists, right? (That was sarcasm)
No, it's about our heritage, it's about where we came from. If it's a symbol of hatred to you, then tough.

It's rediculous these days what people try to say is racist. It's freakin retarded and I, personally, am sick and tired of someone screaming "racist" over the stupidest crap.

And your reply was the stupidest shit too. That flag represents the old southern way of life, AKA, slavery.

[EmeraldKnight]

And your reply was the stupidest shit too. That flag represents the old southern way of life, AKA, slavery.

Please be nice, not like your reply was any better..

Southern way of life? What the hell are you talking about? Did you read the above statistics at all? THe vast majority of white southerners DID NOT own slaves, so how the hell is slavery the southern way of life?

[ComradeRed]

The Southern Way of Life is about a lot more than slavery. If you read the Confederate Constitution, I guarantee that you will find yourself saying, "Wow, except for the slavery part, this is so much better than our Constitution." Without fail, this happens.

[angel-roh]

wait so u guys are saying that if i put my korean flag next to my house...thats called racism?

[Spirited Away]

wait so u guys are saying that if i put my korean flag next to my house...thats called racism?

Erm, do Koreans have a history of racism like the US in its early years?

If not, then I don't think your example is very sound.

[EmeraldKnight]

wait so u guys are saying that if i put my korean flag next to my house...thats called racism?

It would depend.. it may be viewed that way by some, but for most people, probably not

[onenonly101]

wait so u guys are saying that if i put my korean flag next to my house...thats called racism?

no, because um Koreans weren't lynched and beaten and so on because they were Korean. And when someone hangs a confederate flag in there house yeah everyone does assume they are racist.

[ComradeRed]

no, because um Koreans weren't lynched and beaten and so on because they were Korean. And when someone hangs a confederate flag in there house yeah everyone does assume they are racist.

Really? I wouldn't assume they're racist.

Chinese people were lynched and beaten by the Japanese for a long while, so does that mean that by having a Japanese flag you support lynching Chinese people?

[onenonly101]

No because the Confederate flag is not the U.S. flag and in the South many blacks were lynched with the Confederate flag flying right by their body

[ComradeRed]

And many Chinese were killed with Japanese flags flying over their body... your point?

[onenonly101]

My point was that hanging the American flag on your house is much different than hanging a Confederate flag on your house. Because the Confederate flag represents racism to many.

[ComradeRed]

And the Japanese Flag might represent racism to many too...

Since when are people's free speech rights compromisable because some other people might be "offended".

I will proudly fly the Confederate Flag next Indepedence Day -- along with the Ross Flag -- to remind people how far we've gone from our original ideals as a nation.

The Confederate Constitution has six major changes from the US Constitution. One of them is slavery. The other five are all things that we should do TODAY -- things that are more in line with what Jefferson had in mind.

5/6 of the Confederate Flag represents freedom and liberty, and only 1/6 represents racism and slavery.

[Spirited Away]

5/6 of the Confederate Flag represents freedom and liberty, and only 1/6 represents racism and slavery.

That is the case for many people, however, to many others the opposite is true (5/6 racism, 1/6 freedom and liberty).

[ComradeRed]

The six major changes in the CSA Constitution are:

- Slavery
- Purposes of Congressional spending limited --> MUCH less corruption in the CSA Congress than the USA Congress
- Abolishing riders on bills --> We DESPERATELY need this
- Supermajority to approve spending --> We desperately need this too
- Line-item veto (I oppose this BTW)
- One-Term Limit for President

Five of the six changes have nothing to do with race... hence only 1/6 racism.

There are five slavery-related articles in the CSA Constitution. Of these, THREE DIRECTLY ATTACK THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY (by prohibiting the importation of new slaves, by restricting slavery in the territories, etc), one is neutral in content, and one protects the property rights of slaveholders.

In other words, even if the South DID win the Civil War, the institution of slavery itself was to meet a somewhat slower, but inevitable economic demise. At the same time, we would all enjoy liberties to a much greater extent than we do now.

If I had a time machine to go back to the Civil War, and knowing the unconstitutional future of America with a Union victory, I would unquestionably have supported the Confederacy. If the CSA Constitution were in force today, we would have a balanced budget, no horrendous abuse of civil liberties like patriot, no FDR-style mini-dictatorships, much lower taxes, less spending, and less war.

Now I know that was really controversial, but onenonlyone... I'm sure you support NOT being bigoted... so I think that to be fair, everyone should actually read the Confederate Constitution before passing judgment on what side was actually right in the Civil War. Remember that before Lincoln brought slavery to the forefront in 1863, the entire world looked at the North as a tyrannical power, and the South as an oppressed minority seeking only to be left alone.

[EmeraldKnight]

That is the case for many people, however, to many others the opposite is true (5/6 racism, 1/6 freedom and liberty).

Exactly..

*Sigh* I think this is a useless topic.. because there realli is no changing longstanding views.. no matter what the Confederate Flag may have been intended to represent, racist actions in the last century have forever marred it..

Minda, I value all your facts and stuff, but the truth is.. people dont care for obscurities like that, no matter if the Supreme Court rules it as not being racist, people are going to view it and possibly use it as such..

Racism is in the mind, not in some piece of cloth; the racist feelings are projected onto the flag..

Blah.. that somewhat made sense.. I think...

[Spirited Away]

Blah.. that somewhat made sense.. I think...

Very much so.

If some law declares that the Confederate flag does not represent racism, there will still be people who think that the law is biased and discriminatory.

ComradeRed, those are genuinely interesting facts. I learned a lot from them.

[onenonly101]

Since when are people's free speech rights compromisable because some other people might be "offended".

Since the FCC was made

[T00000]

if the person who displays the flag is doing it with racist intentions, it is racist. period. therefore the argument about what the south stood for our whatever does not matter much.