Evangelism Options

[yummy_delight]

A good friend of mine and I recently got into a heated debate about evangelism. We're both Christians, but we have very different ideas about evangelism. When my friend started getting really involved in church a few years ago, he also became a rampant evangelist. He believes that by bringing more people into the church he is not only saving them from eternal damnation, but also doing his duty as a Christian. He has often quoted Charles Spurgeon, saying "Every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter," essentially stating that you can't truly be Christian without evangelizing non believers.

I, however, don't like the idea of evangelism at all. Although I'm a devout Catholic, I dislike the idea of evangelism because I don't believe that anybody, myself included, has the right to force his or her beliefs on someone else. I think that everybody has a right to be whatever the religion they choose. Perhaps it's because I have a different idea about God than other people. I don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God. I think that my duty as a Christian is to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that I HAVE to be an evangelist.

I'd just like to know what everyone else's opinion is on this, not merely from a Christian standpoint, but from another religion's or atheist's perspective as well. Do you approve of evangelism? Are you an evangelist? Do you think that evangelism is a necessary requirement for all good Christians?

[*kryogenix*]

don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God.

Spreading God's news is a good thing to do. We are called to do it.

Non Christians who are invincibly ignorant cannot be held responsible for not worshipping God. However, telling people about God makes sure that fewer people are invincibly ignorant.

The people who are hypocritical are just as undeserving as those who reject God and are not invincibly ignorant.

[sadolakced acid]

i would think, in all logic, they would be more undeserving?


anyways

i have seen evangelism tear apart friendships.

now, i'm not as anti-christian as i was before, but i still don't like evangelicals, mostly because of thier general unwillingness to accept no for an answer.

[Ington]

They bother me. A lot.

Why, you ask? Because they seem to always find me in a crowd.

A week ago, while I was sitting with my girlfriend in Dunkin Donuts, enjoying a nice mocha drink, two asian women (one seemed like the mother of the other) came up to us and gave us little Christian pamphlets. I myself am Jewish, and my girlfriend is a Buddhist. They started to explain each page of the pamphlets to us in horrible, broken Engrishe, and I interrupted by saying "I'm sorry, I'm Jewish." However, my girlfriend felt bad and didn't want to interrupt. They huddled around her and kept talking, so I said, "She's Buddhist." They looked at me like they didn't understand what I meant. They kept explaining to her the meanings of special words and whatnot, and I told them to leave us alone. I f**king hate that.

Once, a Jehova's Witness rang my doorbell for 30 minutes straight. I, honestly, was about to come out and nail 'I AM NOT F*CKING CONVERTING' on my door.

[flc]

Umm..no offence to anyone here, but I think Evangelists are insane.

If they were devout Christians, they'd know not to judge people, & tell them where they're going in the Afterlife. They'd know that they are only mere humans & it's God's decision, not theirs, where a person will end up. These people take everything in the Bible so literally; they must have never heard the saying, "God works in mysterious ways," because really, they don't know, a guy could be on his deathbed, an Atheist his whole life, & then suddenly have a transformation that would make him believe, & he could end up going to heaven after all. {This isn't what I believe, mind you, this is just what I've been taught.}

I just think that good Christians wouldn't try to take God's job in bringing people closer to him. I believe that good Christians would "save" people, so to speak, by living a good life & setting a good example, not being so pushy & up in people's faces.

Once, a Jehova's Witness rang my doorbell for 30 minutes straight. I, honestly, was about to come out and nail 'I AM NOT F*CKING CONVERTING' on my door.

My gosh. Couldn't you have been like, "Listen, buddy, if you don't knock it off I'm going to call the cops on you for harrassment."?

[Ington]

My gosh. Couldn't you have been like, "Listen, buddy, if you don't knock it off I'm going to call the cops on you for harrassment."?

It seemed as though my voice couldn't pass the barrier around their heads. I eventually did come out and tell the woman I was going to eat her soul if she didn't leave, though.

By the way, don't do that. Ever. I was lucky, because she didn't think I was serious. Many of them are fanatics, and they would have burned my house down because of that. Whew.

Thank you for saying what I was basically thinking.

[AngryBaby]

dont listen to franki ariel, she's INSANE.

you put that sign up if you damn well please

[marzipan]

I, however, don't like the idea of evangelism at all. Although I'm a devout Catholic, I dislike the idea of evangelism because I don't believe that anybody, myself included, has the right to force his or her beliefs on someone else. I think that everybody has a right to be whatever the religion they choose. Perhaps it's because I have a different idea about God than other people. I don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God. I think that my duty as a Christian is to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that I HAVE to be an evangelist.

i agree completely with you on that. i don't think people should be pushed into a religion. i've had people come up to me saying you have to be christian to go to heaven, and that if you're not, you're going to hell. i HATE that. if you lead a good life and are a good person, but you're not christian, why should you go to hell?

[n00b]

well I don't think you should be forced into a religion.
I'm Christian, but still.
Just let someone do what they want.

[*StanleyThePanda*]

Forcing your religion on them isnt cool, no.
But I think that sharing your testimony with them and maybe inviting them to church is okay.
Cause then they arent really pressured into, or forced into.

[fifthing]

I fully agree with your stance on the matter. I prefer my faith to be a personal thing, so while I myself am Catholic, I'm socially liberal in my opinions. I base my actions and judgements not upon what is spelled out in the bible , because it should not be taken that literally, or what I'm told to do by others, but rather on what feels right, which is under no circumstances to force someone to change their beliefs or behavior unless they are causing palpable or plausible harm to themselves or others. Thus, making someone unhappy out of arrogance that my beliefs are the only correct ones is hardly on my agenda. There is too much doubt in the world for that. If my faith were ever to grow to such a militant extent, I would have to seriously reconsider, as that seems to be one of the most hypocritical things possible.

[flc]

It seemed as though my voice couldn't pass the barrier around their heads. I eventually did come out and tell the woman I was going to eat her soul if she didn't leave, though.

By the way, don't do that. Ever. I was lucky, because she didn't think I was serious. Many of them are fanatics, and they would have burned my house down because of that. Whew.

Lol.

But..you serious? That's pretty scary shit. That angers me a lot. Fanatics are stoopid.

& I'm more sane than Evan, ignore him.

[steph514]

I recently took a class on apologetics, learning how to defend my own faith while introducing it to others. Trust me, I've always felt very negatively towards eveangelists eventhough I considered myself a faithful Christian. What the class taught me most was discretion. While I disapprove with hunting people down, slamming pamphlets in their faces, and forcing conversion, I also have to point out that part of being a "faithful Christian" is sharing the gospel. I strongly emphasize the word SHARE. Meaning, something you do with only those you've grown comfortable enough to exchange with. Also, it must definetly be an exchange of ideas. I love learning about other religions, they tend to either enforce my belief in my own religion,open my eyes to modern applications or old doctrine, or simply make me more aware of our modern culture. The true evangelist isn't the man ringing your doorbell for 30 mins, he's the one that really gets you thinking about what you believe. Perhaps even through a curious post on an otherwise religiously sparse forum.

[flc]

^ Bravo. =)

[sadolakced acid]

only one person can make me do that, and he is god.

god speaks to me in dreams.

since i don't dream, i shall remain one of the infidels.

[kimmytree]

Ahh I really dont like Evangelists. But ironically, I go to a Christian school.

I'm a Christian, but I believe Jesus ALREADY saved us. I believe in accepting him, but that doesnt get you into Heaven. I believe that basically everyone is going to Heaven.

I forget the exact reference, but there's a verse that says that there will be more people in Heaven than grains of sand on the seashores. But, according to most Christians, like 95% of the world is going to Hell. Thats pretty screwed up.

[rorhinna]

I would like to just define something. I have been noticing that some people think
that if you are a catholic or just believe in God that you are a Christian. Well....
This isn't that case. In order to be a Christian you must have accepted Jesus Christ as your
Lord and Savior to forgive you of your sins.
"For God so loved the world that He have His only begotten Son that whosever believes in Him shall not die, but have everlasting life" -John 3:16
So, it doesn't matter whether you're a good person or not, you're not going to heaven
unless you have a personal relationship with Christ. (oh and to all those people who think this stuff is dumb or whatever, well, sorry, to bother you). So, I'm sorry, but those people who say they are Christians but are hypocritical and do bad stuff and supposedly don't deserve to go to heaven.... well, no one deserves to go to heaven, but that's why God forgives. However, the people who just do bad, because they know they'll be forgiven, well, if they act that way, then they probably don't have that relationship with Christ and don't wish to follow Him. --okay, so that was one of the points about undeserving people, ya?

Then, about the main topic at hand. Ya, you totally don't have to be an "evangelist" or "missionary" for God to be a real Christian. But if you were to argue that point, you might as well say that you are an evangelist for Christ, merely by going about your day being a good example, and that's ministry in itself, when people can tell that you have things more together or what not.
Plus, just from the replys to this post, its obvious that getting in peoples face and saying "YOU NEED JESUS AND YOU NEED TO BE SAVED!!" well, that can get annoying and
after awhile...or even right away, people begin to resent christianity. which, honestly I can't blame them, I mean, I wouldn't want people doing that to me... and actually its happened, but I just say that I'm a christian. ANYWAYS, erm, I think I addressed everything...

but ya, me personally, I don't force my religion on anyone, cuz that's just not cool. however, since this is a forum and more specifically the debate section... well, I'm a bit more opinionated here. :)

[zebzie]

Its called faith WITH works. If you believe in God, but sin over and over, you will get sent too hell. Faith coupled with works and also bearing fruits (converting people) is what God wants you too do, to save people from going to hell. Its what He wants. But you can still be saved if you don't convert someone, just attempt to put in the effort. Plus, its not like saying, "Hey, wanna come join my church, if you don't, I'm gonna come down and kill you and your family". It's their moral decision.

[ktsou11]

As Christians, we're called upon by God's word to spread the gospel. But just because some Christians don't evangelize doesn't mean that they wont get into heaven. You automatically gain entry by asking God into your heart. He doesn't MAKE you go that extra step like "You won't get into heaven unless you do this." That's more along the lines of Jehova's Witnesses. Again, He doesn't MAKE us but we should have a desire to spread His good news and give others a chance to find salvation.

PRAISE GOD!

[Kontroll]

A good friend of mine and I recently got into a heated debate about evangelism. We're both Christians, but we have very different ideas about evangelism. When my friend started getting really involved in church a few years ago, he also became a rampant evangelist. He believes that by bringing more people into the church he is not only saving them from eternal damnation, but also doing his duty as a Christian. He has often quoted Charles Spurgeon, saying "Every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter," essentially stating that you can't truly be Christian without evangelizing non believers.

I, however, don't like the idea of evangelism at all. Although I'm a devout Catholic, I dislike the idea of evangelism because I don't believe that anybody, myself included, has the right to force his or her beliefs on someone else. I think that everybody has a right to be whatever the religion they choose. Perhaps it's because I have a different idea about God than other people. I don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God. I think that my duty as a Christian is to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that I HAVE to be an evangelist.

I'd just like to know what everyone else's opinion is on this, not merely from a Christian standpoint, but from another religion's or atheist's perspective as well. Do you approve of evangelism? Are you an evangelist? Do you think that evangelism is a necessary requirement for all good Christians?

Listen. You're friend is right about evangelism. Evangelism is simply telling people about the Gospel. The Gospel is Greek or Hebrew for 'Good News'. I know that's not really relevant, but it's a neat thing to know. Anyway, I am an evangelical Christian, and it is our duty to bring souls to Christ. Only through Christ can you be truely saved. Only through faith can you be truely saved. It's not works. Yes, there are people out there who claim to be Christians and probably are, but aren't living the life style. You cannot lose your salvation. There is no where in the Bible that states if you don't strictly follow the religion you will be cut off from Heaven.

There is nothing that can do that. I've heard people who believe that if you kill yourself that you will automatically go to Hell. You probably believe this considering you are Catholic, but I'm just assuming. Well, even murderers are allowed into Heaven. What is suicide? It is the murder of one's self. Logically, you are allowed into Heaven. Again, religion has nothing to do with you and Christ. What God want's is a personal relationship with you. He doesn't care if you go to church or not, because in reality it's just bricks and mortor. There is no intermediary between you and God. You can talk to Him directly. So, says the Bible. Just look for it. It seems that the Catholic religion is one of hypocracy. They go to church and when they leave they are no longer apart of it, until the next week. This is just what I've experienced.

Evangelism is not forcing your believe on some one. It's simply showing them your side of the story. It's not like we are holding guns up to their heads. So, you really can't say that we force them to become Christians. It really must not be that important to you that people have personal relationships with Christ, because I think that way to sometimes. Well, I don't want to force my opinion on them. That is really just saying that you're afraid of what the consequences might be.

That's what I have to say.

[silvernoone]

Evangelism is being just as open about talking about Christianity as others are open about talking about their religion or lack thereof. If you're a Christian, isn't God supposed to be a part of you, making him a part of your life, day in and day out? Well, I know most people talk about their every day life. So evangelism is also not holding back what's really happening in your daily life even if it involves talking about God.

With that I think it's also a matter of living a Godly life that shows as evangelism. Usually getting into debates or approaching people right off the bat about religion doesn't get you anywhere. But seeing the life it gives you to live makes the real impact. I'm not a Christian but my dad is a pastor and I grew up in church. There's something in the presense and manerisms that draws my attention more than the words.

Brow-beating door-to-door evangelism is just a cover for what really witnesses to people. I wish more people understood that instead of thinking all evangelism is scary or that you're not a Christian if you don't ask everyone you see "so do you have Jesus?".

[chasingvictory]

well to me Evangelism isn't, "forcing his or her beliefs on someone else."
To me its sharing in what you believe in.

When I went to evanglise one time, the first thing I said to a person was, "Hi my name is Nico and I am here to share God's love to everyone. By any chance have you herd of Jesus Christ?" Well, I don't say it exactly like that but if they reject me I don't continue to speak to them. I think that all christians are all called to evangelize because when Jesus visited the disciples during the resurrection, he said to "make disciples of all nations." He told us that in Matthew 28:19-20.

[thanhmai]

I believe that people should have the free will to choose whatever religion that makes them a better person. Isn't that the base of what religion is supposed to help you do in your life, really? To make yourself a better person. And if someone is happy with how their own religion is improving their life, it isn't right to impose what you think would make their life better.

[sadolakced acid]

hello my name is justin and i'd like to "share" my anti-christ beliefs with you.

i implore you to accept the fact that jesus was the devil incarnate and is leading you astray!

please, just a moment of your time!

really, please!

i will save you from the imposter!

I WILL MAKE SACRAFICES FOR YOUR SOUL.

[thanhmai]

hello my name is justin and i'd like to "share" my anti-christ beliefs with you.

i implore you to accept the fact that jesus was the devil incarnate and is leading you astray!

please, just a moment of your time!

really, please!

i will save you from the imposter!

I WILL MAKE SACRAFICES FOR YOUR SOUL.

I like this sarcastic example. Say the world were to take on anti christ gospels and doctrines, and that was the religious majority. Hypothetically so, would Christians (pretending that they are the less popular of the religions) like antichrist religious people evangelising to them? Maybe the example above (replacing all the "devil incarnate"s and "antichrist"s with "Jesus loves you" and "We are His vessel") is how Christian nonbelievers feel when evangelists fervently preach to them.

I don't really know where I'm going with this.
Do you kinda get my opinion maybe?
It all makes a little more sense in my head.

[LOWinSKANK]

once these people came to my friends door and scared the crap out of her young brothers by saying the world was going to end & to beleive in some crap.. needless to say i told them off. i don't care WHAT your religion is, don't force it on someone else. go ahead and tell me all these wonderful things, but don't force that stuff on me.. you're the ignorant one if you think i can't think for myself.

[AngelinaTaylor]

hello my name is justin and i'd like to "share" my anti-christ beliefs with you.

i implore you to accept the fact that jesus was the devil incarnate and is leading you astray!

please, just a moment of your time!

really, please!

i will save you from the imposter!

I WILL MAKE SACRAFICES FOR YOUR SOUL.

I love this guy.

Anyway. Tell me, Christians, how would you feel if atheists came up to your door to explain and share their own views? Non-forcefully, of course; just to logically explain to you why they think god doesn't exist.. what would you think?

[silvernoone]

I love this guy.

Anyway. Tell me, Christians, how would you feel if atheists came up to your door to explain and share their own views? Non-forcefully, of course; just to logically explain to you why they think god doesn't exist.. what would you think?

I would think that yay, they're proud of what they believe and actually aren't afraid to put their logic out in the open. Go them. Um, if it was at my door, I'd do the same thing I do to other door-to-door people and say "no thanks, I'm not interested" simply because it's my home and unless I know them already, I don't like standing in the doorway talking to someone. But why should I think they or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to do that? As long as they don't pester or nag and take my decline the first time, I'm happy that they want to tell people.

[sdingfelder]

Is there anyone listed here that would have to stop and think about what they should do if they were driving down the streets of a neighborhood late at night and saw a house on fire ?? Seeing that no firetrucks nor firefighters were present, would you be content to simply drive past knowing that there might be people inside ??

Is there anyone listed here that would have to stop and think about what they should do if they were walking by a public pool and saw a child drowning ?? Would you simply walk on by and figure someone else will have the time to help ? Would you run to the edge of the pool simply to stand and stare ? Or, would you disregard that the water might be cold -- that your new outfit might get wet -- that you've never saved someone's life before ?

If you have a beating heart, I think you'd run to that house and bang on the door to make sure that if there is someone there, you'd wake them up and get them out to safety. I also think that you'd jump in and save the drowning child no matter the cost.

How, then, can anyone here be upset with someone who wants to have a conversation with you about eternal things knowing that they talk with you out of a genuine concern (of course, giving them the benefit of the doubt) that you are like a person in a burning house or like a person who's drowning ?

Truly, we all stand on the brink of death every day. Not a single person can guarantee that they have tomorrow. The latest polls verify the ultimate statistic: 10 out of 10 people die.

If you believe in Heaven and Hell, please consider where your eternal destiny would be ? Are you 100% sure of where you'd go ? How can you know where you'd go ??

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gave the 10 Commandments as His moral compass to know whether we'd go "North" or "South" after we take our last breath. Have you ever told a lie ? Have your ever taken something that didn't belong to you -- no matter the value ? Have you ever used the Lord's Name in vain ? Have you ever committed adultery ?

If you're looking at yourself and thinking, "I'm a good person and God will understand since He's so loving," be very careful. What you've done is made two very critical mistakes: (1) You're looking at yourself based on self-righteousness and NOT God's righteousness, and (2) You've broken another of the Commandments by creating a God in your own mind that is okay with the sins you've already committed.

If you've told a lie, you are a liar. If you've taken something that doesn't belong to you, you're a thief. If you've used His Name in vain, you're a blasphemer. As for adultery, consider the fact that throughout the Bible, we see that God knows our thoughts and judges our hearts and intentions. Jesus said that if you LOOK upon someone to lust after them, you've committed adultery with them in your heart already !!

I'm just as guilty as anyone of breaking the 5 Commandments mentioned so far. And just like everyone else, if God were to judge me based on His 10 Commandments, I'd be found guilty and would be well-deserving of a "Guilty" sentence and subsequent punishment of Hell. In the privacy of your own mind, if you honestly admit to your guilt to the above Laws you'll know that justice must take place.

Asking a civil court judge to forgive you of the crimes you've admitted to will not change his sentence of "Guilty" -- nor the punishment. Telling the court judge that you haven't done it in years won't change anything. Even telling the court judge that you just got finished washing his car wouldn't change anything. If he's a good judge, he's bound by the law to sentence you based on that law. God is only different in that He's a perfect, holy, and righteous judge.

This is not about joining a church. This is not about giving a church your money. This is about seriously considering your current position with regards to the God who will judge you once you take your step into eternity. It's an important thing to consider. You'll be dead a LOT longer than you were ever alive.

So, if you'd at all like to know what God did so that the fine associated with your "Guilty" sentence could be paid, just reply to this post.

[kimmytree]

^ Nice post. But quoting scriptures doesnt mean something is automatically true.

I used to consider myself to be a Christian. Heck, I go to a Christian school. But it seems the more I research and learn about it, the less and less I believe it. Now its gotten to the point that I dont believe it at all.

The main thing that started to make me wonder (a few years ago), and has led to me not believing at all, is salvation. I understand the concept that believing in Jesus will gurantee eternal life, but what about people who dont believe? They're damned. Just like you believe in Christianity with all your heart, non believers believe the exact same way. If non believers really are damned, then 99% of the world is going to hell. Would our kind and loving God do that to his children? Not the God I know.

[sadolakced acid]

The worst kind of people are those who are falsely religious; the hippocrits (yes i know) that populate our world. Belief in the existence of god, that's respectable. Belief in the inexistence of god, that is also all well and good. But when you see these people, who twist religion, and hide behind it, and use it for thier own purposes, these are the worse. These are the false prophets. These are the tongues of satan. These are the wolves in sheeps clothing, the ones you should really worry about.

[sdingfelder]

Nice post. But quoting scriptures doesnt mean something is automatically true.

Interesting. But please point out where I quoted Scripture. If you mean talking about the Commandments, I guess I wouldn't consider that quoting Scripture as if I'd copied and pasted Revelation 21:8. I named some of the Commandments -- they're universally known as things you shouldn't do.

I used to consider myself to be a Christian. Heck, I go to a Christian school. But it seems the more I research and learn about it, the less and less I believe it. Now its gotten to the point that I dont believe it at all.

I'm glad you're honest enough to recognize that you're not a Christian, then. Most people would be in denial saying that believing in the person they think is Jesus is enough. They're not looking to the Jesus who was prophesied in the Old Testment and who was revealed in the New.

...but what about people who dont believe? They're damned. Just like you believe in Christianity with all your heart, non believers believe the exact same way. If non believers really are damned, then 99% of the world is going to hell. Would our kind and loving God do that to his children? Not the God I know.

First of all, please don't misunderstand: I don't believe in Christianity -- the religion with many different flavors. I believe in Christ -- Messiah -- and His Word alone.

Second, I don't believe with my heart. My heart's been wrong many, many times. In fact, my heart's led me to more mistakes than I can count. I believe with my mind because God has proven Himself to me. I'm a guy and I'm a professional software engineer -- both points major strikes against making emotional decisions. Further, I'm Jewish. I started reading the Bible to prove that Jesus is NOT who He claimed to be. I was wrong.

Regarding those who don't believe, you're exactly right. Anyone who has a problem with it will have to take it up with the One that wrote it -- the Lord Himself. If you try to break the law of gravity by jumping out of an airplane mid-flight, is it the parachute's fault that you didn't put it on ? Of course not ! You would have to put the parachute on first. In the same way, if someone's heard that Jesus is the only way to be saved from the penalty of breaking God's moral Law (the 10 Commandments), simply knowing about Jesus won't do it. You need to, in effect, put Him on. Trust in Him as you would a parachute.

Of course, the next logical question from someone who doesn't believe in the Jesus of the Bible is, "Well, what about those who've never heard about Jesus ? Are they going to be damned as well ?" Sadly, there's nothing in Scripture that says that everyone must hear the Truth of the Messiah. The Bible does rightly say, though, that each one of us has been given a conscience (meaning "con" = "with", "science" = "knowledge) by God. Every person lies with knowledge that it's wrong. Every person steals with knowledge that it's wrong to do that. Every person who looks upon someone to lust after them does so with knowledge that if they're mother were looking, they shouldn't do that, too. The Bible teaches that the conscience bears witness and when you break that conscience you've condemned yourself to the well-deserved sentence of "Guilty" as I stated in my previous post. But, if you're that interested in those who are in far-away tribes, get yourself saved and go there and preach to them ! Otherwise, you should really just consider what's going to happen to you after you die. Where are you headed -- for eternity ??

As for your comment about the "God I know". You're right. The god you know is one you've made up in your head - he doesn't exist. As I mentioned in my previous post, you've broken the Second Commandment and molded a god to suit your own understanding as opposed to looking into God's Word and seeing who He really is. The god you know is not the God of Bible who is described as a righteous and Holy Judge. Since God is love, He must hate that which is against love. Since He loves righteousness, He must hate evil.

Here's a question for you: It sounds like you might think that whether you believe in the Jesus of the Bible or not, you're still good with the God who created all things. If that's the case, why did Jesus live a perfect life only to screw it up at the end by allowing Himself to be killed (disregarding the fact that this was prophesied in the Book of Isaiah about 700 years before He was born) ? If people that claim to be "good" can get to Heaven, then why did Jesus have to die ???

But when you see these people, who twist religion, and hide behind it, and use it for thier own purposes, these are the worse. These are the false prophets.

I couldn't agree with you more. Those who do this will receive the appropriate judgment. Nothing's hidden from God.

Don't let the bad example of some lead you to make an eternal mistake in rejecting the only way to receive salvation.

[sadolakced acid]

now i have a question for you. how do you know, truely, who the false prophets are?

god is my beacon. If i follow him and him alone, i cannot be led astray. many will try to show me their ways. They may be right, and they may be wrong. but i do not know.

what i do know is if i trust in god, i will find the right way. i do not need the guidance of anyone else; god shall find me, and i he.

what you preach may be noble, and what you preach may be good. but how do i tell? you are not god, so i must follow my own way.

[splitnightsky]

don't judge me for judging you.
cuz then we get stuck in a huge circle, no?

I am full blown Christian,
but I never liked the whole "go door to door" thing.
but that's not what evangelism is about.

my form of evangelism deals with me living it.
I live how I believe a Christian should live.
I'll tell you I'm a Christian. and I'm always here if you have questions.
that is still evangelism.
you guys are just taking it to the extreme.

no one is ever gonna listen to you
if you beat a Bible over their heads
and tell them they're going to hell.

shoot, I'd ignore them.

but my point is, many of you who are
arguing against this are also using "evangelism"
-just your own kind of evangelism-
I mean, are you not sharing you beliefs?
and I don't mind...
the hardest thing to ever change something about someone
is what they corely believe.
so tell me what you believe.
because I really am fascinated by what some people come up with. :)

[sdingfelder]

now i have a question for you. how do you know, truely, who the false prophets are?

That's an excellent question. You use the Bible as your compass. You compare the teachings of someone who calls themselves a "prophet" to what the Word of God has said. If there's any contradiction, that person is falsely representing the Lord. Don't forget what happened to Moses when he misrepresented the Lord.

god is my beacon. If i follow him and him alone, i cannot be led astray. many will try to show me their ways. They may be right, and they may be wrong. but i do not know.

Please forgive me, but the only way to follow God alone, according to the Bible, is to be what's called "born again" (see John 3:3). You must be born again to truly follow God. To know if someone's right or wrong, again, is something that takes comparison to the Word of God.

what i do know is if i trust in god, i will find the right way. i do not need the guidance of anyone else; god shall find me, and i he.

How do you determine your level of trust ? Is it in simply following what you think is right ? Do you ever go in a direction that seems wrong in order to follow God ? If not, how much trust do you really have for Him ?

Be careful. Read Proverbs 3:5 and Psalm 118:8. How many times in your life have you been wrong ? I can trust in my best friend, but if I'm blindly following him on the road and he gets lost, I end up lost as well. You have to read your Bible, obey it, and live it.

In terms of trust, though, do you trust the Bible enough to believe what Jesus Himself says ? Do you see the words that He speaks and say to yourself, "Well, if He said, I need to do it" ?

what you preach may be noble, and what you preach may be good. but how do i tell? you are not god, so i must follow my own way.

What I say, if it has any nobility, is because it's from God's Commandments. He set them forth in order to show us how unclean we are compared to His righteousness. Picture a baby lamb against the backdrop of a bright green meadow. That lamb looks bright white. But, now take the same lamb and set it to the backdrop of newly fallen snow. That lamb now looks unbelievably dirty comparatively. This is how God's righteousness so drastically shows us that we are so far from His goodness.

As for me being God, you are SO, SO right. You should not listen to me nor trust me. Anyone who tries to share their faith with someone else should NEVER base their version of truth on their experiences, on their church, or on their emotions. I ask you to trust none of these from me, from anyone else, nor from yourself. The Bible is the only means by which to know truth. It's the only Book that's proven itself.

The beautiful thing is that God did endow everyone with a conscience that is meant to help show us all that we've broken His Laws. I hope you're not at the point that you've seared that conscience. Your eternal destiny's at stake. Can you guarantee that you'll wake up tomorrow ? No one can. Why, then, put your head on the pillow tonight without getting right with God ??

Throughout the Bible, God calls all people to repent and to follow Him. He doesn't say that you have to attend a church. He says you are to separate yourself from the sins that have separated you from Him and to make Him the most important thing in your life (the First Commandment).

It's a humbling thing to know that you can't make it Heaven on your own merits. God requires perfection -- and none of us would make it on our own. This is why, from the beginning, it was foretold that Jesus -- the Jewish Messiah -- would come and give His perfect life on a cross so that the penalty for our sins could be paid -- paid in full.

Please consider where your eternal destiny would be. Jesus said that I should love my neighbor as I love myself. I don't want to go to Hell and my only concern is that you not go there either.

I am full blown Christian

What does "full blown" mean ? Are you born again ?

but I never liked the whole "go door to door" thing.
but that's not what evangelism is about.

Unfortunately, going door to door has become a trademark for JWs and Mormons. But that doesn't mean that that's not what evangelism's about. You just disagree with it as the means by which to share your faith, right ? Truly, it is a hard thing to step out of your comfort zone to start conversations with complete strangers, but please don't look at others simply as trees (Mark 8:28). Please look at them as God does -- as souls that have one of two possible eternal destinations. Just as you can't guarantee that you'll wake up tomorrow morning, you can't guarantee that they will either !! How terrible it would be to know that you didn't tell them about the only way to make it to Heaven the day before they step off this Earth and into eternity ! Wouldn't you want to have had a clear conscience ?

my form of evangelism deals with me living it.
I live how I believe a Christian should live.

If you're born again, please point out in Scripture where any of the prophets or the apostles simply used "living it" as their form of sharing the singular Truth of God. When was there ever a move of God in the Bible where His representative was simply living his life with a smile on his face waiting for someone to ask, "Hey, why are you always so happy ? Tell me about what gives you so much joy ??" Never.

Think about how you asked God for His free Gift of Salvation. Was it at a VBS ? Was it an altar call ? Was it an evagelist ? Or was it someone who had a smile on their face and you asked them, "Hey, why are you always so happy ? Tell me about what gives you so much joy ??"

So, do you live as how you believe a Christian should live or how the Bible teaches you should live as a Christian ? Remember that "Christian" means "follower of Christ". Are you living your life as a follower of The Jesus described in the Bible ? Do you read your Bible and see ways in which you live that God says "If you want to honor Me, don't do that." ? Please strongly consider this question and answer it not based on pride or ego, but as God would judge.

no one is ever gonna listen to you
if you beat a Bible over their heads
and tell them they're going to hell.

You're exactly right -- beating them over the head with a Bible would never work. That's why I use a hammer instead. Much more effective.

Because I know that Jesus gave me a gift that I neither deserve nor could EVER earn, my desire is to share it with others who haven't received it yet. Because I know the promises of God to the person that isn't born again are true, I fear for them. Don't you ?? Don't you care enough about the people around you to talk openly with them about their eternal destiny ? Don't you care that they're promised an eternity in the Lake of Fire ? Don't you ??

If you say that you do, in fact, care then how about this: Do you care enough to do something about it ?? Because if you don't care enough to do something about it, you don't care.

If your neighbor's house was on fire late at night, would you simply knock on the door lightly and not want to disturb them ? If they came to the door, would you say, "I'm really sorry for bothering you, umm, but would you like to come over and, umm, have a cup of coffee at my house ? Not trying to say that we couldn't enjoy a cup here -- I mean your house is really nice, but, umm, I just thought you might like to have a change of scenery. But, you know, you just take your time and if I've offended you I'm really sorry." Of course not !! You'd bang on that door and yell for them to get outta there !! Their house is on fire for goodness sake !!

the hardest thing to ever change something about someone
is what they corely believe.

Please understand that I did not grow up with these beliefs. My current beliefs are not those of my parents nor the friends I grew up with. The people I called friends and that called themselves Christians didn't care enough about my eternity to tell me about Jesus. No one I grew up with ever told me that without repenting and accepting His gift of Salvation that I was destined for Hell & the Lake of Fire even though I thought of myself as a really good person. I won't do the same thing with the people that God leads across my path. Why would you ?

so tell me what you believe.

If it isn't clear from my previous posts, I completely trust the Bible as the inerrant, fully God-breathed Word of the Eternal God of Creation and of Salvation. Because I believe that, I read it. Because I read it and trust it, I obey it. Shouldn't you ?

As a "full blown Christian", do you believe differently ??

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[splitnightsky]

to answer you without quoting (geez that was long)

funny thing is, I really didn't feel like reading all that.
ho'crap and c'mon.
another thing, I made very general statements.
I really don't care
what you think about me.

yes, you are right on some points.
but I'm a lot less inclined to listen to you.
why? you attacked my opinions.
this is why I hate door-to-door.
most people go about it the wrong way.
"you are wrong, this is right."
I'm not gonna believe you from a 4 year olds argument.
sorry.

to me, full blown Christian means I am born again,
yes, but also how I believe Jesus would want me to live.
not by some guidelines you or anyone else decides to make up.
and I'll never fake it. ever.

how I got saved? one day I was just sitting in my room
and figured, hey, I'm pretty much a sinner, why not get saved?
it wasn't as "callouse" as that..but you get what I'm saying.
no one influenced me. I didn't even tell anyone for 4 days.

and evangelism is not all about going door to door.
you wish to refer to scripture, give me the scripture
where it says that we have to go door to door to "save" people.
truth is, it says to go unto the world and make followers and baptize them.

I hate using scripture in arguments, because things can taken however they will be.
so I'm not gonna pull any in here.
but I believe what I believe.
you are going to be frustrated because I don't agree with you,
and I'm going to be frustrated the same back.

that's life.

[sdingfelder]

Yeah, sorry. I get verbose. I hope you do get the chance to read the rest of my addressing your points.

As for attacking your opinions, please forgive me if that's the way it came off. You made statements that (as with all things) need to be compared to the Word of God. Are your opinions so sacrosanct that they can't be questioned ? Are you so sure your thoughts are supported in the Bible that they shouldn't be addressed ? If you see something I've written that contradicts the Bible, I need to know. Please show me the verses.

As for a "4 year old's argument": Logic doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be true.

I'm very glad that you're born again. I'm very glad to know that you're 100% sure of your eternal destiny. I'm sad to know that you haven't been led to share the incredible gift that you've received with as many people as you can.

As for the guidelines by which to live, you're right. Not one single person on this Earth should tell you how to live. The Word of God should. I simply asked if you were living a Christian life that the Bible describes.

Bottom line is that Jesus Himself said that He would make you a fisher of men if you follow Him (Matthew 4:19). For some, that means fishing door-to-door. For others, it means fishing while walking in the mall. That said, by 4 year old logic, it seems pretty clear that if you're not a fisher of men, you're not following Him.

I agree that Scripture doesn't do much (again, forgive me in that I didn't know were having an argument, but rather a discussion) with someone who doesn't see the Bible as the Word of God. Addressing your post was my first real use of including Scripture. I did that because you said you were a "full blown Christian", so I made the assumption that you would respect the verses.

Because I know that I'm wrong in many ways at many times, I actually wouldn't mind if you would expose me to some verses to support what you believe in terms of sharing the Gospel. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to change. Actually, it'd be much easier and take much less time for me to not share openly and boldly. It would give me much less heartache to walk by people and not care that they're destined for eternity separated from God and suffering in the Lake of Fire.

Show me.

[splitnightsky]

I really don't feel like discussing this anymore, because it has lost focus.
I never said scripture didn't have meaning,
that I don't respect it or anything like that
I read too much into what you said, just like you did me.

I have helped lead people to Christ,
but never the way you are saying.
apparently kids like it better when
you live what you say...
so I am doing evangelism.
just not door-to-door.

I'm not telling you you are wrong.
I'm not saying I'm always right.
I simply made a statement,
that I thought I could randomly say
without having to explain my opinions.
that is all.

it is completely useless for either of us to discuss
this anymore, so I am repspecting others by leaving.
we are no longer discussing anything.
this is a game of "who is right and who isn't"
and I don't like to play those games.
because in the end, everyone is wrong.
we will never come to terms, so I'm leaving
before this turns into a full-blown argument.

to everyone else, I am sorry I got angry.
please accept my apology,
and do discuss what you believe ;)

[sdingfelder]

For anyone else reading this thead, please don't lose sight of the most important thing: your eternal destiny.

Has anyone heard the saying, "Your eyes are the windows to your soul." Would anyone sell one of their eyes for a million dollars ? How about both of them for 10 million ? You'd be crazy to say "Yes". Of course you wouldn't -- your eyes are precious to you !!

So, why would you take a chance on your eternal, everlasting soul when it's SO much more precious that either one of your eyes ??

Please consider that none of us have tomorrow promised to us. If you were to stand in front of a Holy and Righteous God and be judged based on your "goodness", you'd be found greatly lacking. Your sentence would have to be "Guilty" because God is love. As He loves righteousness, He must hate the transgression from righteousness.

Know that, as I believe everyone is here, I get nothing from saying these words to you. My only interest is to help you not be found "Guilty" on the day you're judged by God.

If I saw you park in a parking lot and stopped you to tell you that I've worked on cars for many years and I noticed that you have a very bad brake fluid leak, would you get upset with me because I cared enough to tell you ? Would you be so prideful that you would reject my input because you'd never met me before. Simply out of a desire for your safety, someone approaches you to please do something to repair what could possibly kill you. Wouldn't you want to check it out before you got back in your car to drive away ? Wouldn't you want to check for yourself as opposed to basing a decision on anyone else ?

If I told you that I had a gift for you and I pull it out of a bag and hold it in front of you, when does it become yours ?? It's not yours because I say I have a gift for you. It's not yours when I pull it out of the bag. It's not even yours when I present it to you. It's only yours when you take it from my hand and you make it your own. That's how a gift is accepted.

Please consider your need to repent and ask God to forgive you for breaking the Law that He's put on your heart. Please ask Him to give you His free gift of salvation. Every time someone shares the Gospel with you, God is holding the Gift in front of you. It's your choice to accept it or not...

[sadolakced acid]

I'm sorry, but i don't trust the bible. In my opinion, it has been edited too many times by men seeking political gain to be considered the word of god any longer.

if you believe in god, he will lead you to the correct path. you don't need to follow the bible.

blindly following god i can handle. blinding following the bible i cannot do. why? it's what i believe.

[Spirited Away]

Have you turn to deism, Justin?

[sadolakced acid]

no, but i'm arguing one's point of view for this debate.

[Mulder]

scottd, are you by chance a messianic jew? your icon pretty much states that, but i wanted to check first.

i myself, am an ordinary, albeit lazy jew. i have been trained in sunday school to resist the evangelical jews - Jews for Jesus. I've had to sit through lectures on how to respond to the "Jesus is God" crap, and I'm really just sick of it. I have no problem with messianic jews. I think they're...misguided (because by being messianic you are inherently NOT jewish), but I would never try to push judiasm onto a messianic jew. Same with christians. There have been many attempts to try to "save" me. Do you know how rude that is?

[sdingfelder]

sadolakced acid:
If you want to follow God, but don't believe in the Bible as His Word, then you're left to follow only that which you think is right. If you at all believe that God has the power to create everything, why don't you believe that He has the power to keep His Word intact ??

Please take a long, deep look at the integrity of 66 Books written by 40 authors over 1500 years. Year after year, the Bible is confirmed more and more through archaeology as well as the through prophecies that come to pass.

We have the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts to know that what we have is unchanged. Yes, there have been many edits to the English versions -- not only to make it more readable, but also to try to change what the Word says and this is why you need to be careful. But, even those mistranslations can be found when comparing to the unchanging original languages.

insomniac:
Yes, I am a Messianic Jew.

Your comment on being a lazy Jew really cracked me up. Thank you for that. I never thought of it, but that pretty much describes me before trying to originally prove that Jesus was not who people said He was.

I grew up in a household that the name "Jesus" was worse than a 4-letter word. My father would become stiff with anger at the mention of His Name. I grew up thinking that people were either Jewish or they were Catholic -- no idea of the differences in so many Christian sects. I was so ignorant of Jesus that I had no idea He was even Jewish !! I had no clue that the guys that penned the Brit Hadashah (New Covenant) were Jewish men following the promised Messiah of Israel. I didn't even know that what is known as "The Last Supper" was actually a Passover meal !! I just didn't know. If you know these things already, you're far more knowledgable than I was.

When you say that you sat through all the lectures and you're "just sick of it", are you sick of the lectures or sick of hearing that some Jews believe that Jesus is God ? That isn't meant to be sarcastic, I would just like to know since I couldn't tell from the sentence.

Interesting that you say that Messianic Jews are inherently NOT Jewish. This is actually one of the first things that came up against me when I realized that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied throughout Tanach. How is is that completely secular Jews are still Jews ? How is it that Buddhist Jews are Jews, that atheistic Jews are Jews ?? It's simple: the term "Jew" has been used to describe both the bloodline as well as the practice of religious tradition (i.e. "Judaism"). Secular, Buddhist, atheistic, etc. Jews do not practice Judaism yet are still considered Jews because of their bloodline. For those who read this and don't know what I'm talking about, they may ask, "What bloodline are you talking about ?" The Bible teaches that there is a race of people that were born of 3 specific men: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The offspring from that lineage are called "Jews" after one of the sons of Jacob, Judah. Therefore anyone who has blood in them that follows down from these 3 men called "patriarchs" have Jewish blood and are Jewish. You can't change your blood. My belief that the Messiah of Israel has fulfilled His promises and has come already certainly doesn't change the blood passed down to me from my parents and their parents, etc.

I can only assume that your comment that Messianic Jews are inherently NOT Jewish is not based on studying Scripture or seriously considering the exclusionary statements made about Jewish Believers in Jesus. Instead, your commment is most likely made because it's what you've been told and you accepted it from men that you probably regard and respect. That doesn't mean, though, that they're right.

As for people trying to "save" you, it's unfortuntate that your perspective is that it's rude. True Christians look to the Jews with the highest regard since the Bible teaches that they've been chosen from all the nations as God's people. In fact, true Christians love the Jews and Israel more than any of my family members. They feel this way because they (as Ruth did) have made the God of Israel their God. The desire and efforts to see you saved is done in complete obedience to what the Word of God teaches.

Please search the Scriptures for yourself and find the truth in our Messiah. Don't take someone else's opinion or thoughts as fact. Not making a choice for yourself based on your own studies is still making a choice. Have you ever heard, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" ??

[Mulder]

When you say that you sat through all the lectures and you're "just sick of it", are you sick of the lectures or sick of hearing that some Jews believe that Jesus is God ? That isn't meant to be sarcastic, I would just like to know since I couldn't tell from the sentence.

Interesting that you say that Messianic Jews are inherently NOT Jewish. This is actually one of the first things that came up against me when I realized that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied throughout Tanach. How is is that completely secular Jews are still Jews ? How is it that Buddhist Jews are Jews, that atheistic Jews are Jews ?? It's simple: the term "Jew" has been used to describe both the bloodline as well as the practice of religious tradition (i.e. "Judaism"). Secular, Buddhist, atheistic, etc. Jews do not practice Judaism yet are still considered Jews because of their bloodline. For those who read this and don't know what I'm talking about, they may ask, "What bloodline are you talking about ?" The Bible teaches that there is a race of people that were born of 3 specific men: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The offspring from that lineage are called "Jews" after one of the sons of Jacob, Judah. Therefore anyone who has blood in them that follows down from these 3 men called "patriarchs" have Jewish blood and are Jewish. You can't change your blood. My belief that the Messiah of Israel has fulfilled His promises and has come already certainly doesn't change the blood passed down to me from my parents and their parents, etc.

first question: I meant the lectures. I've started skipping them lately. I mean, really, one conversation is not going to change my outlook on life, and either is a lecture.

second question: I don't think a buddhist-jew relationship...works. If you're born Jewish, you'll die as a Jew, unless you convert. I'm not saying that, by birth, you are not a Jew. You will always be a Jew by birth, and I for one am not trying to take that away from you. But the faith itself, there is one God, and he is holy, and he saved us from Egypt....etc... well, in my opinion, you can't be messianic and still hold that statement true. i feel like such a hypocrite now... i'm so not the person to be talking about faith

[kimmytree]

^ Yeah. How can you believe in Christ, and not be a Christian?

And how can you believe in Christ and still be Jewish? According to most Jews, thats pagonism.

I'm not downing you for being Jewish or anything - I have alot of Jewish relatives.

[kimmytree]

I'm glad you're honest enough to recognize that you're not a Christian, then. Most people would be in denial saying that believing in the person they think is Jesus is enough. They're not looking to the Jesus who was prophesied in the Old Testment and who was revealed in the New.

Why would someone be in denial? It's not that hard to admit.

First of all, please don't misunderstand: I don't believe in Christianity -- the religion with many different flavors. I believe in Christ -- Messiah -- and His Word alone.

Uhh. Dude. Believing and Christ and his word MEANS YOUR A CHRISTIAN. What separates what you believe from the Christian faith?

Second, I don't believe with my heart. My heart's been wrong many, many times. In fact, my heart's led me to more mistakes than I can count. I believe with my mind because God has proven Himself to me. I'm a guy and I'm a professional software engineer -- both points major strikes against making emotional decisions. Further, I'm Jewish. I started reading the Bible to prove that Jesus is NOT who He claimed to be. I was wrong.

Whats wrong with believing with your heart? Do you believe in Jesus with only your mind?

Regarding those who don't believe, you're exactly right. Anyone who has a problem with it will have to take it up with the One that wrote it -- the Lord Himself. If you try to break the law of gravity by jumping out of an airplane mid-flight, is it the parachute's fault that you didn't put it on ? Of course not ! You would have to put the parachute on first. In the same way, if someone's heard that Jesus is the only way to be saved from the penalty of breaking God's moral Law (the 10 Commandments), simply knowing about Jesus won't do it. You need to, in effect, put Him on. Trust in Him as you would a parachute.

I see what your saying, but would a mother cause harm to her child for crying? Why would God condemn his "children" to hell?

Of course, the next logical question from someone who doesn't believe in the Jesus of the Bible is, "Well, what about those who've never heard about Jesus ? Are they going to be damned as well ?" Sadly, there's nothing in Scripture that says that everyone must hear the Truth of the Messiah. The Bible does rightly say, though, that each one of us has been given a conscience (meaning "con" = "with", "science" = "knowledge) by God. Every person lies with knowledge that it's wrong. Every person steals with knowledge that it's wrong to do that. Every person who looks upon someone to lust after them does so with knowledge that if they're mother were looking, they shouldn't do that, too. The Bible teaches that the conscience bears witness and when you break that conscience you've condemned yourself to the well-deserved sentence of "Guilty" as I stated in my previous post. But, if you're that interested in those who are in far-away tribes, get yourself saved and go there and preach to them ! Otherwise, you should really just consider what's going to happen to you after you die. Where are you headed -- for eternity ??

You're right, everyone has been given a conscience. If someone has done wrong, and feels sorry for what they did, isnt that the same as asking for forgiveness?

As for your comment about the "God I know". You're right. The god you know is one you've made up in your head - he doesn't exist. As I mentioned in my previous post, you've broken the Second Commandment and molded a god to suit your own understanding as opposed to looking into God's Word and seeing who He really is. The god you know is not the God of Bible who is described as a righteous and Holy Judge. Since God is love, He must hate that which is against love. Since He loves righteousness, He must hate evil.

Are you kidding me? You keep throwing the Commandments and other Bible nonsense out - with no proof to completely back up the Bible at all. Your twisting things, saying that I've broken the second Commandment and done wrong. What are you expecting me to do? Cave in and say you're right? Um no thanks.



And how the heck is what I believe Evil?

Here's a question for you: It sounds like you might think that whether you believe in the Jesus of the Bible or not, you're still good with the God who created all things. If that's the case, why did Jesus live a perfect life only to screw it up at the end by allowing Himself to be killed (disregarding the fact that this was prophesied in the Book of Isaiah about 700 years before He was born) ? If people that claim to be "good" can get to Heaven, then why did Jesus have to die ???

You dont understand. I dont believe Jesus is the son of God, and died for our sins. I believe that he may have been a prophet, who did claim to be "the son of God". Aren't we all God's children?

I couldn't agree with you more. Those who do this will receive the appropriate judgment. Nothing's hidden from God.

(Going by what you are saying) If nothing is hidden from God, then that means that he knows that most people are dying and going to Hell. Wouldnt he do something about it? If he loves us so much, like you claim, he would.

Answer that one for me.

[sdingfelder]

But the faith itself, there is one God, and he is holy, and he saved us from Egypt....etc... well, in my opinion, you can't be messianic and still hold that statement true.

insomniac & happykmd
I very much appreciate you both bringing out good points in kindness. I've seen where differences of thought and theology have brought people to harsh words and I'm glad y'all are willing to make valid points in a kind way.

There is still only one God in Messianic Judaism. If you're truly interested in looking into this further, please don't hesitate to let me know. If you honestly seek the Hebrew Scriptures, you'll see that He shows throughout Tanach that He is One, but as each one of us is body, mind and soul we were made in His image.

As a Jewish person, Deuteronomy 6:4 should sound familiar. It's called the "Shema Y'israel". I don't know, insomniac, if you're familiar with it. "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one". Please study the word "one" in this verse. It is the Hebrew word "echad" which is also used in Genesis 2:24. Ask yourself how "echad" can possibly mean "one and only one".

I've specifically tried to not come off as someone who only uses Bible verses to back up what he says. The Bible says that He is not a God of confusion -- there's logic to His Truth. So, in such a forum as this I simply use things that are easily grasped and which can be used as examples of real-life experiences.

Uhh. Dude. Believing and Christ and his word MEANS YOUR A CHRISTIAN. What separates what you believe from the Christian faith?

First, remember that my comment was that "I don't believe in Christianity" -- the religion. The Christian religion is wrought with factions -- Baptists, Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc. Each one of these factions stresses one thing over another as opposed to stressing what the Bible teaches ONLY AS MUCH AS the Bible teaches it. These are man's divisions. Man will often look to something that sounds good and stress that. What separates me from believing in the relgion is that I look to the Bible and not to man. I look to Messiah as my teacher. Read Psalm 118:8 and Proverbs 3:5. I can't put my trust in man because like all men, that man's going to be wrong. Just like I'm going to be wrong.

Whats wrong with believing with your heart? Do you believe in Jesus with only your mind?

The Bible teaches that the heart cannot be trusted. Read Jeremiah 17:9 to see why no one should trust their heart as their guide. God gave us an intellect in order to objectively study His Word. I use my mind to study His Word, but even moreso than my wife "has my heart", I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength (the First Commandment).

I see what your saying, but would a mother cause harm to her child for crying? Why would God condemn his "children" to hell?

A bad mother would, yes. But if you wanted to see if someone truly loved you, would you force them to follow you ? Or, rather, would you allow them enough breathing room to see if they love you enough to seek you out and stay by your side ?

As for God condemning His "children": Please understand that the Bible never says that everyone is the "child" of God. It actually says the opposite. Please read Colossians 1:21 and John 3:18.

If someone has done wrong, and feels sorry for what they did, isnt that the same as asking for forgiveness?

If you were married and your spouse cheated on you, would an "I'm sorry" look on their face be enough ? Would actually saying "I'm sorry" be enough ? How about a "Please forgive me" right before it happens again ? Of course not ! There has to be what's called repentance -- a hatred for the wrong that's been done and a desire to do only that which is right.

God's no different. He wants a person who loves Him more than their sin. Simply feeling sorry and doing it again means nothing to man -- why should it mean something to the Creator of the Universe ?? Please read Psalm 34:8.

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that you need to go to a man to ask for forgiveness of God. You can ask forgiveness of God in your own private location -- room, mind, heart, where ever.

Are you kidding me? You keep throwing the Commandments and other Bible nonsense out - with no proof to completely back up the Bible at all. Your twisting things, saying that I've broken the second Commandment and done wrong. What are you expecting me to do? Cave in and say you're right? Um no thanks.

And how the heck is what I believe Evil?

I clearly need to ask for your forgiveness for a poor choice of words. Please do forgive me. One example of my poor choice of words is that you read my statement as what you believe is evil. I said "Since He loves righteousness, He must hate evil." I was trying to make a statement that God cannot be ALL love. If He were, He would contradict Himself and sound like some sort of multiple personality disorder being. He is not. The Bible teaches that He is unchanging. He cannot love and one thing AND love the opposite of that thing.

As for the Commandments, please see Exodus 20 (specifically Exodus 20:4 for the Second Commandment). As for proof to completely back up the Bible, that would be a good conversation to have if you're really interested.

As for you caving in to say I'm right, I don't blame you for rejecting that. I've obviously offended you in my words and I'm sorry for that. I hope my mistake won't stop you from looking into God's Word to find the Truth.

You dont understand. I dont believe Jesus is the son of God, and died for our sins. I believe that he may have been a prophet, who did claim to be "the son of God". Aren't we all God's children?

I'm sorry to hear that. As I mentioned before, I appreciate your honesty.

I agree that He did claim to be the Son of God. If you really believe He made that claim and you don't believe He is who He says He is, please realize that you're calling Him a liar. By Biblical definition, if a prophet lies, he is a false prophet and should not be followed. The jesus you know would have died in vain. His lie would have led countless numbers of people to their deaths believing in a lie. Consider the apostles. Secular, historical documentation shows that all but John died horrific and painful deaths. What you're saying is that they died trying to promote a lie.

Bottom line is that there's never been anyone who's ever come close to satisfying even 3 Messianic prophesies from the Old Covenant. Jesus Christ satisfied over 300.

We talked about being God's "children" above.

(Going by what you are saying) If nothing is hidden from God, then that means that he knows that most people are dying and going to Hell. Wouldnt he do something about it? If he loves us so much, like you claim, he would.

Answer that one for me.

Yes, He knows this and He has done something about it:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

[datass]

I named some of the Commandments -- they're universally known as things you shouldn't do.

They're known as things people who believe in it shouldn't do.

EDIT

ScottD, all the "should" and "shouldn't" things you posted disgust me. Are you telling people what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T do? Who are you to do that?

Not one single person on this Earth should tell you how to live. The Word of God should.

So what if there's no God? What if we're not Christians? Why do we have to live the way some book (Bible) tells us to?

[sdingfelder]

Good morning, icy_wonderland.

If you believe it's okay to lie, steal, look at someone's son or daughter (I'm not sure if you're a guy or a girl) to lust after them then you've seared the very conscience that God gave you. The conscience bears witness of the Ten Commandments that God gave.

As for the "should's" and "shouldn'ts" that disgust you, they're from God. Feel free to take it up with Him.

Finally, I'm not telling people what to do. God's done that through His Word and the conscience that He's given each person -- including you. What I'm doing is trying to point out that each of us will die some day -- no idea what day that'll be. And on that day, each person will be judged by the Living God. Because He's done something for me that I can neither pay back nor have I earned, I'm simply trying to share something with people that they may have never heard before or never thought about before.

If caring for others is offensive to you, I'm very sorry for that. Please examine your own mortality. We're all victims of the ultimate statistic: 10 out of 10 people die.

[Based on the latest edit I saw]

So what if there's no God? What if we're not Christians? Why do we have to live the way some book (Bible) tells us to?

Since we're in the realm of the philosophical: What if God does exist ? What if you are to be judged by The God who shows Himself through the fact that we have Creation itself showing His existence ?

As for not being a Christian, please read somewhere above. Someone else asked the question and my response is up there.

[datass]

I don't have to be Christian to care about others, do I?

[sdingfelder]

Your point is very well made. In no way would I ever imply that you have to be Christian to care about others. Even worse, I'd have to be blind to say that all those who call themselves "Christian" do care about others.

But, being a Christian is first-and-foremost about caring about God and the things that are important to Him. And what's important to Him is that people turn from that which takes them away from Him -- their sin -- and that they turn to Him.

I have nothing to gain from writing these words. I'm certainly not winning a popularity contest. In fact, if you want to win a popularity contest do NOT do what I'm doing.

I don't know if you're married, but if your spouse were to write you a bunch of love letters and you never even opened the envelopes, how unkind would that be ? God could have left us all guessing as to what He requires to be with Him, but He didn't. He gave us 66 Books that tell us how loving, kind, good, and righteous He is. The Bible says He takes no pleasure in the death of the those who reject Him.

[NoSex]

Since we're in the realm of the philosophical: What if God does exist ? What if you are to be judged by The God who shows Himself through the fact that we have Creation itself showing His existence ?

Creation? Where the hell is the evidence for creation?
What are you talking about? The burden of proof is on you, not those who lack belief in God.
In all likelihood, God doesn't exist. And, we have no reason to believe otherwise. The possibility of any god, let alone just the God of Abraham, existing is so minimal and rediculous it barely even demands consideration. But, when given consideration, it just becomes that much more laughable. I'll believe when I have a reason to believe, a real reason. Until than, I'll remain an athiest. If you want to take a crack at proving your creation myth or positing that God surely does exist, I'm sure you can find the appropriate threads for such a discussion, they are here.

[bad mood] As for Evangelism, I only have one serious gripe. Lay off the f**king kids. They're too impressionable and young to take any of what you are telling them into serious thoughtful consideration. Stop raping their minds. Stop pressuring and ruining them. Let them live you sick fucks. [/bad mood]

[kimmytree]

Creation? Where the hell is the evidence for creation?
What are you talking about? The burden of proof is on you, not those who lack belief in God.
In all likelihood, God doesn't exist. And, we have no reason to believe otherwise. The possibility of any god, let alone just the God of Abraham, existing is so minimal and rediculous it barely even demands consideration. But, when given consideration, it just becomes that much more laughable. I'll believe when I have a reason to believe, a real reason. Until than, I'll remain an athiest. If you want to take a crack at proving your creation myth or positing that God surely does exist, I'm sure you can find the appropriate threads for such a discussion, they are here.

[bad mood] As for Evangelism, I only have one serious gripe. Lay off the f**king kids. They're too impressionable and young to take any of what you are telling them into serious thoughtful consideration. Stop raping their minds. Stop pressuring and ruining them. Let them live you sick fucks. [/bad mood]

Ahhh. I wouldnt go as far as saying that God doesnt exist, but I agree with what you say about believing what he's trying to tell us.

Are we the f**king kids you're talking about? o_O

[sdingfelder]

I can only assume that since you mention "the kids", that you're not one. Interesting that the most foul language has come from an adult instead of a kid. For example, insomniac & happykmd (I'm not sure if they're "kids" or not, though) showed much more maturity in their response. You should be proud of yourself.

You're right. They are impressionable -- as everyone can be. Good thing you leave such a good impression. Good job giving "kids" / "young adults" the benefit of the doubt that they can think for themselves.

Certainly having role models like you around to make sure their minds aren't tainted with your own flavor of beliefs is clearly the right thing -- since you obviously have no slant towards a particular side. I can see your desire to not lean one way too far.

Again, why not let them make educated decisions by hearing both sides without denigrating what you don't believe ?

As for Creation: note that both Creation and evolution have the same fossils, same data, same overall evidence. Evolutionists choose to look at the evidence from their slant -- not even agreeing within their own ranks. Creationists look at the evidence from the view that it happened exactly the way it's written in the Bible.

If you were willing to consider looking at the same evidence without your preconceived notions against God, you might actually see something worthwhile. I used to be a fully indoctrinated evolutionist because I never questioned what I was taught in public school. Why not look at truly scientific & measurable data points to support your beliefs ?

Remember that Darwin himself said, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." Of course, there's more that Darwin had to say in this quote, but he prefaced it with "Reason tells me, that if..." and he goes on. That "if" has never been changed to a "because" or a "since." "If" is not science -- it's science fiction.

Here are some interesting quotes:
"Archaeoraptor is hardly the first ‘missing link’ to snap under scrutiny. In 1912, fossil remains of an ancient hominid were found in England’s Piltdown quarries and quickly dubbed man’s apelike ancestor. It took decades to reveal the hoax." U.S. News & World Report, February 14, 2000

"Darwin admitted that millions of ‘missing links,’ transitional life forms, would have to be discovered in the fossil record to prove the accuracy of his theory that all species had gradually evolved by chance mutation into new species. Unfortunately for his theory, despite hundreds of millions spent on searching for fossils worldwide for more than a century, the scientists have failed to locate a single missing link out of the millions that must exist if their theory of evolution is to be vindicated." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God

"There are gaps in the fossil graveyard, places where there should be intermediate forms, but where there is nothing whatsoever instead. No paleontologist . . . denies that this is so. It is simply a fact. Darwin’s theory and the fossil record are in conflict." David Berlinsky

"Scientists concede that their most cherished theories are based on embarrassingly few fossil fragments and that huge gaps exist in the fossil record." Time magazine, Nov. 7, 1977

"The evolutionists seem to know everything about the missing link except the fact that it is missing." G. K. Chesterton

[kimmytree]

I very much appreciate you both bringing out good points in kindness. I've seen where differences of thought and theology have brought people to harsh words and I'm glad y'all are willing to make valid points in a kind way.

Same to you. I appreciate you being kind about what you're saying, even if I dont agree.

There is still only one God in Messianic Judaism. If you're truly interested in looking into this further, please don't hesitate to let me know. If you honestly seek the Hebrew Scriptures, you'll see that He shows throughout Tanach that He is One, but as each one of us is body, mind and soul we were made in His image.

As a Jewish person, Deuteronomy 6:4 should sound familiar. It's called the "Shema Y'israel". I don't know, insomniac, if you're familiar with it. "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one". Please study the word "one" in this verse. It is the Hebrew word "echad" which is also used in Genesis 2:24. Ask yourself how "echad" can possibly mean "one and only one".

I've specifically tried to not come off as someone who only uses Bible verses to back up what he says. The Bible says that He is not a God of confusion -- there's logic to His Truth. So, in such a forum as this I simply use things that are easily grasped and which can be used as examples of real-life experiences.


First, remember that my comment was that "I don't believe in Christianity" -- the religion. The Christian religion is wrought with factions -- Baptists, Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc. Each one of these factions stresses one thing over another as opposed to stressing what the Bible teaches ONLY AS MUCH AS the Bible teaches it. These are man's divisions. Man will often look to something that sounds good and stress that. What separates me from believing in the relgion is that I look to the Bible and not to man. I look to Messiah as my teacher. Read Psalm 118:8 and Proverbs 3:5. I can't put my trust in man because like all men, that man's going to be wrong. Just like I'm going to be wrong.

Yeah - there are numerous sects of the Protestant faith. If you know Christ as your Savior, believe in the New Testament, and Evangelism, you are a Christian. You're still Jewish, but you're a Christian. If you're into being taught about what the Bible actually says, instead of someone of a certain Protestant sect twisting things, thats basically Non-Denominational.

A bad mother would, yes. But if you wanted to see if someone truly loved you, would you force them to follow you ? Or, rather, would you allow them enough breathing room to see if they love you enough to seek you out and stay by your side ?

As for God condemning His "children": Please understand that the Bible never says that everyone is the "child" of God. It actually says the opposite. Please read Colossians 1:21 and John 3:18.

Ok, but if you knew in advance that someone was going to get by a car, wouldnt you tell them? Wouldnt you stop them from being in that situation? Christians claim that God / Jesus knows everything. He knows what we're going to order for lunch tomorrow, who we're going to marry, all the details of our life. So doesnt he know if we're going to accept him or not? Wouldnt he make sure that every person accepted him? Sounds to me like its predetermined then.

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that you need to go to a man to ask for forgiveness of God. You can ask forgiveness of God in your own private location -- room, mind, heart, where ever.

Then how is that any different that what I said?

I clearly need to ask for your forgiveness for a poor choice of words. Please do forgive me. One example of my poor choice of words is that you read my statement as what you believe is evil. I said "Since He loves righteousness, He must hate evil." I was trying to make a statement that God cannot be ALL love. If He were, He would contradict Himself and sound like some sort of multiple personality disorder being. He is not. The Bible teaches that He is unchanging. He cannot love and one thing AND love the opposite of that thing.

Thank you. Hopefully I dont sound rude either. I just felt as if you were attacking me. Why cant he? That doesnt make sense. Just because he isnt "all love", doesnt mean he cant love. Once again, please stop throwing out things "the Bible teaches". You're just making things worse - its not going to make me or anyone else automatically agree with you, just because the Bible says something. Yeah, all that is in the Bible, but just because something's in a book doesnt make it true.

As for the Commandments, please see Exodus 20 (specifically Exodus 20:4 for the Second Commandment). As for proof to completely back up the Bible, that would be a good conversation to have if you're really interested.

Once again, see above.

I agree that He did claim to be the Son of God. If you really believe He made that claim and you don't believe He is who He says He is, please realize that you're calling Him a liar. By Biblical definition, if a prophet lies, he is a false prophet and should not be followed. The jesus you know would have died in vain. His lie would have led countless numbers of people to their deaths believing in a lie. Consider the apostles. Secular, historical documentation shows that all but John died horrific and painful deaths. What you're saying is that they died trying to promote a lie.

Bottom line is that there's never been anyone who's ever come close to satisfying even 3 Messianic prophesies from the Old Covenant. Jesus Christ satisfied over 300.

We talked about being God's "children" above.

Not necesarrily. Many parts of the New Testament were written HUNDREDS of years after his death. Just like anything else, after the story being retold over and over again over the generations, things change. You really dont believe that God really spoke to the authors? If he did, why hasnt he spoken to anyone else since?

He claimed to be the Son of God. According to parts of the Old Testament, as believers in God we are all his children. (I'll edit this later with the reference). So in a sense, he is a son of God just like we are all his sons / daughters. He created us, making him in a sense our Father.

Why would his lie necessarily led to other's deaths? Chances are, when the NT was written hundreds of years later, the story was twisted. I think he claimed to be the son of God just like we are his children, and he preached / taught the Old Testament, and died for believing in it.

I can only assume that since you mention "the kids", that you're not one. Interesting that the most foul language has come from an adult instead of a kid. For example, insomniac & happykmd (I'm not sure if they're "kids" or not, though) showed much more maturity in their response. You should be proud of yourself.

I agree with you on that one. According to his/her profile, they're only 18. I'm 17, so I dont see how that makes him any more of an adult that myself.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? A college student?

[NoSex]

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 5 2006, 6:30 PM' post='2365795']
I can only assume that since you mention "the kids", that you're not one.[/quote]

I'm talking about very young children. Younger than ten years old or so.
It was just a comment on the trends within Evangelism in getting them when they're young. That's all.

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 5 2006, 6:30 PM' post='2365795']
Interesting that the most foul language has come from an adult instead of a kid. For example, insomniac & happykmd (I'm not sure if they're "kids" or not, though) showed much more maturity in their response. You should be proud of yourself.[quote]

Argumentum ad hominem?
Are you serious? I think you're confused as to what exactly maturity is. Last time I checked, the value, quality, and reality of my premises and propositions have absolutely nothing to do with my character or how many "foul" words I use in getting them across. Talk about maturity? Let's focus on the arguments, shall we?

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 5 2006, 6:30 PM' post='2365795']
You're right. They are impressionable -- as everyone can be. Good thing you leave such a good impression. Good job giving "kids" / "young adults" the benefit of the doubt that they can think for themselves.[quote]

You can convince a six year old of just about anything. As an adult, you should recognize that and take a bit of responsibility and tact in dealing with something as important and careful as spirituality. Ever heard of Santa Clause?

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 5 2006, 6:30 PM' post='2365795']
Certainly having role models like you around to make sure their minds aren't tainted with your own flavor of beliefs is clearly the right thing -- since you obviously have no slant towards a particular side. I can see your desire to not lean one way too far. [quote]

Way to try to neutralize the possibility of a real debate by trying to target me as inherently close minded. Wow, you're no good at this. Let's focus on the arguments at hand, shall we?

By the way, what exactly is objective about taking a six year old to a church?

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 5 2006, 6:30 PM' post='2365795']
As for Creation: note that both Creation and evolution have the same fossils, same data, same overall evidence. Evolutionists choose to look at the evidence from their slant -- not even agreeing within their own ranks. Creationists look at the evidence from the view that it happened exactly the way it's written in the Bible.

If you were willing to consider looking at the same evidence without your preconceived notions against God, you might actually see something worthwhile. I used to be a fully indoctrinated evolutionist because I never questioned what I was taught in public school. Why not look at truly scientific & measurable data points to support your beliefs ?
[/quote]

The difference is creationists have held onto the same creation story since as long as their theology has proposed it. Science moves from observation into theory. Creation moves from "theory" to observation. That's called a methodological problem.

Further, creation isn't scientific. There is nothing about it that is reasonable or logical. It is a preconcieved conclusion supported only by selective analysis, misconception, deception, flat out lies, and awful displays of what someone thinks is a "logical demonstration." f**k, the cosmological argument denies itself. It's a joke.

You seem to just be making a ton of assumptions on my character, and you are largely ignoring and avoiding any kind of real debate. Lets see your affirmative case for creation, I'm dieing for it.

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 5 2006, 6:30 PM' post='2365795']
Remember that Darwin himself said, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." Of course, there's more that Darwin had to say in this quote, but he prefaced it with "Reason tells me, that if..." and he goes on. That "if" has never been changed to a "because" or a "since." "If" is not science -- it's science fiction.
[/quote]

Why do creationists love to repeat this quote so much? Yeah, of course he has more to say, he goes on for nearly an entire chapter describing exactly how he believes the eye could have evolved, and... it isn't that far from how scientists understand early eye developement today. The evolution of the eye isn't near as complex as creationists like to make it, we have perfect living and dead examples of transitional eyes. "If" is science. Ever heard of a hypothesis, they tend to begin with "If." Augh.

Further, what would this prove? Even if Darwin didn't believe so strongly (which he certainly did) in his theory, how would that at all detract from the reality of evolution? What's your point?

Fossil record is exactly as we imagined it. Fossils aren't exactly the most common thing in the world. It's not like every creature ever was fossilized. Get over yourself, f**k.

[sdingfelder]

Ok, but if you knew in advance that someone was going to get by a car, wouldnt you tell them? Wouldnt you stop them from being in that situation? Christians claim that God / Jesus knows everything. He knows what we're going to order for lunch tomorrow, who we're going to marry, all the details of our life. So doesnt he know if we're going to accept him or not? Wouldnt he make sure that every person accepted him? Sounds to me like its predetermined then.

This is a great scenario. I do know that something's going to happen: We're all going to step out of time and into eternity. No one knows when that'll happen except the Lord. He does know all the things that you mention. He even knows the number of hairs on your head. He does know who's going to accept His Son and who isn't. That doesn't mean that He doesn't give each person a chance to show that they love Him more than their sins.

If He were to "make sure that every person accepted him" as you say, that would be very similar to the following: My wife loves for me to tell her that I love her. Since I write software, I could write a routine to play a prerecorded clip of me saying "I love you", say, every half hour. But which means more: me feeling love enough for her to tell her or her hearing it very often with no feeling ?? God wants you to love Him more than anything and for you to love Him with your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

Then how is that any different that what I said?

I'd previously mentioned that there has to be turning away from the sin that's separated you. I can't remember where I wrote it, but if you were standing in a courtroom and were found guilty, asking the judge to just forgive you wouldn't be enough. He's still got to sentence you.

Jesus paid the fine for anyone who will humble themselves and ask Him to cover their sins. It means that you realize you can never pay the fine yourself -- it's only through His suffering death and resurrection that the payment for your sins can be made. This is true for everyone -- I'm not trying to single you out by using "you".

That doesnt make sense. Just because he isnt "all love", doesnt mean he cant love.

Sorry. I must have once again used the wrong words. I didn't mean to say that He can't love. He most certainly does. He just doesn't love a thing AND the opposite of that thing. For example, I love babies so I cannot love the killing of them through abortion.

Once again, please stop throwing out things "the Bible teaches". You're just making things worse...

I realize that. I'm trying my hardest not to use it since I know you don't believe it. I understand that it's like someone using the holy book of Hinduism to tell me some truth that there's no way I'm going to believe. I understand. I'm trying.

I had to prove to myself that the Bible is a Book written outside of time. If you ever start to really study, I'd love to be of any help possible.

Many parts of the New Testament were written HUNDREDS of years after his death...

Actually, not only is there no proof for this, there's counter-proof to this statement. There are secular writings from Roman leaders as of the early 100s (A.D.) talking about this religious sect that is willing to lay their lives down for the beliefs. In fact, they have enough actual documents dated no later that 150 A.D. in order to fully reconstruct the New Covenant.

I making a guess here, but you may be talking about the Gnostic writings out of Alexandria that were written hundreds of years after His death. There's plenty of documentation on the Gnostic writings if you're interested in looking at that.

You really dont believe that God really spoke to the authors?

Which writes a note: the pen or the penman ? God used the prophets and apostles to speak His Word.

If it were just men writing, how do you explain fulfilled prophecy ? Man cannot see into the future. Are you familiar with any of the 300+ prophecies of Jesus to show that He is who He said He is ??

According to parts of the Old Testament, as believers in God we are all his children. (I'll edit this later with the reference).

I look forward to that reference -- esp. since in the Old Covenant only the Jews were the chosen of God except for those that chose to forsake their pagan gods and follow the One, True, Living God of Israel.

Why would his lie necessarily led to other's deaths?

They died for their faith in Him. Paul was beheaded for his witness for Christ. Peter was crucified upside-down. Stephen was stoned to death. The list goes on. These men walked with Him. These men would've gone to their deaths believing and promoting a lie.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? A college student?

Actually, I'm a card-carryin' old guy. I'm a 38 year old, very happily married man, with 3 beautiful little girls that are a complete joy. As for college: I was in college for way too long.

[Spirited Away]

This is relevant to the original discussion, how one Christian thinks Christianity should be practiced:

"Everybody thinks of changing humanity and nobody thinks of changing himself."
--Leo Tolstoy

[sdingfelder]

Acid Bath Slayer
How many grains of sand make up all the islands of Hawaii ?

What is the average number of hairs on a full-grown Tibetan yak ?

Clearly, you cannot answer these questions because you do not have absolute knowledge. Did you know that Thomas Edison said, "We do not know one-milliionth of one percent about anything" ? You can agree or disagree with this, but clearly you know nowhere near all there is to know.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you know a whopping 1% of ALL there is know. Wouldn't you agree that in the 99% of what you don't know and haven't come across yet, that this could be where evidence resides that proves God's existence ? Wouldn't you agree that the 1% of absolute knowledge you hold onto so tightly has kept from seeing the other 99% ?

I hope you'd agree that you have nowhere near absolute knowledge. Therefore, you're left with less-than-absolute knowledge. So, instead of saying your an atheist (there is no God), you must be an agnostic (just not sure).

More quotes:
Sir Isaac Newton said, "This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."

Scientist Stephen Hawking is his book, A Brief History of Time said, "It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."

Albert Einstein didn't believe in the God of the Bible, but he wasn't a fool. He knew that there was a Creator. He said, "God does not play dice [with the universe]." "Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is
manifest in the laws of the Universe--a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble." (The Quotable Einstein, p. 152).

Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research so rightly stated: "Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless."

Sir Arthur Keith (Sir Arthur Keith wrote the foreword to the 100th edition of Origin of the Species) said, "Evolution is unproved and unprovable."

Malcolm Muggeridge, the famous British journalist and philosopher said, "I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in history books of the future." (The End of Christendom, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Mich., 1980, page 59).

Dr. T. N. Tah-misian of the Atomic Energy Commission said, "Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever."

"Paleontologists have discovered a new skeleton in the closet of human ancestry that is likely to force science to revise, if not scrap, current theories of human origins." USA Today March 21, 2001

Reuters reported that the discovery left "scientists of human evolution…confused," saying, "Lucy may not even be a direct human ancestor after all."

Bottom line is that I fear for you. You might not care about that, but I see you jumping out of an airplane with no parachute cursing God and the law of gravity for taking you down. Please don't continue along the path of self-righteousness (seeing yourself as right and not seeing yourself the way God sees you) and rejection of the God that gave you life. I certainly don't expect you to respond saying, "Yes !! I see now !! You're right !!" But, consider that every day that He gives you breath is a chance for you to call out to Him and ask Him to forgive you for your anger toward Him and to repent and give your life to Him.

You can't guarantee that you'll wake up tomorrow. Please don't put your head on your pillow tonight without getting right with God.

Spirited Away

This is relevant to the original discussion, how one Christian thinks Christianity should be practiced:

"Everybody thinks of changing humanity and nobody thinks of changing himself."
--Leo Tolstoy

Interesting quote. I'm not sure if you're just asking for my opinion on it, though.

Do you believe that this quote indicates something significant to someone who calls himself / herself a Christian ?

To me, it immediately implies humanism. Since I hold to a Biblical worldview, I see little truth to Tolstoy's statement. The little bit of truth I do see is that everyone does want to change others before changes occur within themselves. Jesus Himself said this in that people will always look to the speck in someone else's eye before looking to the log in their own.

As for "changing himself", I don't believe anyone can change themselves. Deep down to the core, people will lean toward doing that which is unacceptable to the Lord. You don't have to teach a little child to lie. They do it simply because it seems right. Only God can truly change someone. I know men who've had $300 a day cocaine habits that stopped and turned on a dime because they repented and put their trust in Jesus Christ. I know others that have similar victories over alcohol, smoking, pornography, etc. They will immediately tell anyone that they'd tried to change themselves before, but it never "stuck".

So, I don't believe anyone can change themselves for a lasting change. It's a temporary patch, if that. Only the God who calls Himself "The Beginning and the End" can do an everlasting work in someone since He always was, is, and always will be.

For anyone else reading
Please don't get lost in the details here.

The important thing is your eternal destiny.

Do you think you're going to Heaven when you die ? Are you 100% sure you'll make it ? What does it take to get there ? Do you think it's based on being a "good person" ? Are you a "good person" ? If you've lied, stolen, used the Lord's Name in vain, looked at someone with lustful thoughts, then you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. This is how God sees you and you will be found guilty of breaking just those 4 of His Ten Commandments. Please consider your eternal destiny. Where would a guilty sentence send you ? That answer should fill you with fear, but knowing that God didn't want that for you and knowing what He did so that wouldn't happen to you should fill you with tears. He sent His Son to die on a cross to pay your fine and He raised Him from the grave and defeated death so that you could escape the wrath to come. Please don't let your pride in thinking that you can merit your way into Heaven keep you from humbling yourself and looking to Him for something you can't do yourself. Please.

[NoSex]

Acid Bath Slayer
How many grains of sand make up all the islands of Hawaii ?

What is the average number of hairs on a full-grown Tibetan yak ?

Clearly, you cannot answer these questions because you do not have absolute knowledge. Did you know that Thomas Edison said, "We do not know one-milliionth of one percent about anything" ? You can agree or disagree with this, but clearly you know nowhere near all there is to know.

No shit.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you know a whopping 1% of ALL there is know. Wouldn't you agree that in the 99% of what you don't know and haven't come across yet, that this could be where evidence resides that proves God's existence ?

Yes. But the likelihood of such evidence existing is rather minimal. Not to mention, such evidence has no yet been found, until such, should we not suspend our belief? In the same vain, could there not be, within that 99% an irrefutable proof against the existence of all gods whatsoever? Further, could there not just as easily be proof that any other number of god/goddesses/etc exist? How exactly is any of this relavent to your argument, and why have you ignored all my questions and propositions?

Wouldn't you agree that the 1% of absolute knowledge you hold onto so tightly has kept from seeing the other 99% ?

I would love to ask you the same, and I would further love to point out how meaningless this question is to the whole of the debate. Way to be irrelavent always.

I hope you'd agree that you have nowhere near absolute knowledge. Therefore, you're left with less-than-absolute knowledge. So, instead of saying your an atheist (there is no God), you must be an agnostic (just not sure).

Uhhmmm. No. Your ignorance is boundless and your arrogance could serve as a monument to human failure. Are you serious? Learn some etymology, lets work at not defining things so narrowly. Further, your argument from denotation is just a distraction, a boring one at that.

The "privative a" means "without." Atheism literally means, without god. In it's oldest and most pure forms it meant a simple lack of belief. This meaning remains with the active denial in all gods because of etymological importance and practicality. Agnostic means, literally, without knowledge. It's an epistemological theory, it posits what man can not know. Atheism and theism posits what we believe. Big difference, learn it. They are not mutually exclusive.

Further, your argument, so short sighted and recycled, has clearly never been closely analysized by yourself. In the most embarrassing application, it defeats the theory of agnosticism quite swiftly. How could we ever possibly know that we could never know a spiritual truth? Skepticism hasn't always been the most perfect epistemological position, I prefer rationalism, what about yourself?

So, I'll ask you this, why should I take you seriously?

[P.S. What exactly do you think your quotes prove?]

[kimmytree]

Acid Bath Slayer
How many grains of sand make up all the islands of Hawaii ?

What is the average number of hairs on a full-grown Tibetan yak ?

Clearly, you cannot answer these questions because you do not have absolute knowledge. Did you know that Thomas Edison said, "We do not know one-milliionth of one percent about anything" ? You can agree or disagree with this, but clearly you know nowhere near all there is to know.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you know a whopping 1% of ALL there is know. Wouldn't you agree that in the 99% of what you don't know and haven't come across yet, that this could be where evidence resides that proves God's existence ? Wouldn't you agree that the 1% of absolute knowledge you hold onto so tightly has kept from seeing the other 99% ?

I hope you'd agree that you have nowhere near absolute knowledge. Therefore, you're left with less-than-absolute knowledge. So, instead of saying your an atheist (there is no God), you must be an agnostic (just not sure).

More quotes:
Sir Isaac Newton said, "This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."

Scientist Stephen Hawking is his book, A Brief History of Time said, "It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."

Albert Einstein didn't believe in the God of the Bible, but he wasn't a fool. He knew that there was a Creator. He said, "God does not play dice [with the universe]." "Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is
manifest in the laws of the Universe--a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble." (The Quotable Einstein, p. 152).

Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research so rightly stated: "Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless."

Sir Arthur Keith (Sir Arthur Keith wrote the foreword to the 100th edition of Origin of the Species) said, "Evolution is unproved and unprovable."

Malcolm Muggeridge, the famous British journalist and philosopher said, "I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it's been applied, will be one of the great jokes in history books of the future." (The End of Christendom, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Mich., 1980, page 59).

Dr. T. N. Tah-misian of the Atomic Energy Commission said, "Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever."

"Paleontologists have discovered a new skeleton in the closet of human ancestry that is likely to force science to revise, if not scrap, current theories of human origins." USA Today March 21, 2001

Reuters reported that the discovery left "scientists of human evolution…confused," saying, "Lucy may not even be a direct human ancestor after all."

Bottom line is that I fear for you. You might not care about that, but I see you jumping out of an airplane with no parachute cursing God and the law of gravity for taking you down. Please don't continue along the path of self-righteousness (seeing yourself as right and not seeing yourself the way God sees you) and rejection of the God that gave you life. I certainly don't expect you to respond saying, "Yes !! I see now !! You're right !!" But, consider that every day that He gives you breath is a chance for you to call out to Him and ask Him to forgive you for your anger toward Him and to repent and give your life to Him.

You can't guarantee that you'll wake up tomorrow. Please don't put your head on your pillow tonight without getting right with God.

Spirited Away

Interesting quote. I'm not sure if you're just asking for my opinion on it, though.

Do you believe that this quote indicates something significant to someone who calls himself / herself a Christian ?

To me, it immediately implies humanism. Since I hold to a Biblical worldview, I see little truth to Tolstoy's statement. The little bit of truth I do see is that everyone does want to change others before changes occur within themselves. Jesus Himself said this in that people will always look to the speck in someone else's eye before looking to the log in their own.

As for "changing himself", I don't believe anyone can change themselves. Deep down to the core, people will lean toward doing that which is unacceptable to the Lord. You don't have to teach a little child to lie. They do it simply because it seems right. Only God can truly change someone. I know men who've had $300 a day cocaine habits that stopped and turned on a dime because they repented and put their trust in Jesus Christ. I know others that have similar victories over alcohol, smoking, pornography, etc. They will immediately tell anyone that they'd tried to change themselves before, but it never "stuck".

So, I don't believe anyone can change themselves for a lasting change. It's a temporary patch, if that. Only the God who calls Himself "The Beginning and the End" can do an everlasting work in someone since He always was, is, and always will be.

For anyone else reading
Please don't get lost in the details here.

The important thing is your eternal destiny.

Do you think you're going to Heaven when you die ? Are you 100% sure you'll make it ? What does it take to get there ? Do you think it's based on being a "good person" ? Are you a "good person" ? If you've lied, stolen, used the Lord's Name in vain, looked at someone with lustful thoughts, then you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. This is how God sees you and you will be found guilty of breaking just those 4 of His Ten Commandments. Please consider your eternal destiny. Where would a guilty sentence send you ? That answer should fill you with fear, but knowing that God didn't want that for you and knowing what He did so that wouldn't happen to you should fill you with tears. He sent His Son to die on a cross to pay your fine and He raised Him from the grave and defeated death so that you could escape the wrath to come. Please don't let your pride in thinking that you can merit your way into Heaven keep you from humbling yourself and looking to Him for something you can't do yourself. Please.

Now you're just trying to scare people into thinking "omg - I dont want to go to Hell! I better say I believe that then".

To me, thats one of the major flaws in the Christian faith. So many people are witnessed to, and come out of the situation scared to death that they're going to Hell. And usually, they end up "accepting" Christ out of fear, instead of truly believing in him.

And you cant deny thats not true. I go to a Christian school, and I sit in Chapel (which is basically a church service) every single day. Every day the same thing is preached - salvation. And every day at the end of the service, we spend a good 5 minutes praying, and the preacher wanting kids to raise their hands. You wouldnt believe how many new kids are scared into raising their hands the first day of school. Its pathetic.

Even more pathetic, people end up targeting children. I know so many kids that are Christians, and have been since they were 3 and 4 years old. They dont know any different. You can make a little kid believe anything.

[Spirited Away]

Spirited Away
Interesting quote. I'm not sure if you're just asking for my opinion on it, though.
Do you believe that this quote indicates something significant to someone who calls himself / herself a Christian ?
To me, it immediately implies humanism. Since I hold to a Biblical worldview, I see little truth to Tolstoy's statement. The little bit of truth I do see is that everyone does want to change others before changes occur within themselves. Jesus Himself said this in that people will always look to the speck in someone else's eye before looking to the log in their own.
As for "changing himself", I don't believe anyone can change themselves. Deep down to the core, people will lean toward doing that which is unacceptable to the Lord. You don't have to teach a little child to lie. They do it simply because it seems right. Only God can truly change someone. I know men who've had $300 a day cocaine habits that stopped and turned on a dime because they repented and put their trust in Jesus Christ. I know others that have similar victories over alcohol, smoking, pornography, etc. They will immediately tell anyone that they'd tried to change themselves before, but it never "stuck".
So, I don't believe anyone can change themselves for a lasting change. It's a temporary patch, if that. Only the God who calls Himself "The Beginning and the End" can do an everlasting work in someone since He always was, is, and always will be.
For anyone else reading
Please don't get lost in the details here.

The important thing is your eternal destiny.

Do you think you're going to Heaven when you die ? Are you 100% sure you'll make it ? What does it take to get there ? Do you think it's based on being a "good person" ? Are you a "good person" ? If you've lied, stolen, used the Lord's Name in vain, looked at someone with lustful thoughts, then you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. This is how God sees you and you will be found guilty of breaking just those 4 of His Ten Commandments. Please consider your eternal destiny. Where would a guilty sentence send you ? That answer should fill you with fear, but knowing that God didn't want that for you and knowing what He did so that wouldn't happen to you should fill you with tears. He sent His Son to die on a cross to pay your fine and He raised Him from the grave and defeated death so that you could escape the wrath to come. Please don't let your pride in thinking that you can merit your way into Heaven keep you from humbling yourself and looking to Him for something you can't do yourself. Please.

I was not fishing for your opinion alone, ScottD, as I stated that the quote was relevant to the original discussion, anyone can have their say about it. That, and I'm don't know who you are, nor have I read through this thread to see what you have to say so far, so I'll just reply to what it is you have to say to me.

Humanistic views from a Christian, I suppose it bothered you. The "little bit of truth" you saw, that everyone wants to change others and not themselves, was the whole point of the quote. What else did you see in it? Where is the big untruth?

Tolstoy is not suggesting for a person change himself, so there is no need to worry about whether or not man can change, though I would argue that he can in the same way that a dead beat Dad finds that his children are his life and returns to them, and a rebellious kid matures into reliable family man. Children do not lie because it seems right, they lie out of fear, anger, curiosity, or mischievousness, because they do not know what is right and what is wrong. Older children who do lie because "it seems right" are, obviously, very troubled.

As you know troubled men who turned to Christ and become less troubled, I know men who achieved the same simply because they believed in themselves or in those who loves them. You may attribute these men's success to God's love, but I, as someone who wants to believe in man, will give their strong wills and passion for life the credit. To each his own.

What Tolstoy is conveying here can be parallel to the proverbial "practice what you preach", and that a person should not implore a change in others while he has yet to change. The Christian faith teaches that God is the only one who can judge man. Yet, by asking people to accept/evangelizing God and His laws is an act of judgement in itself. Why ask someone to convert if a Christian is not judging that the person is believing in untruths?

If God sees me as badly as you have said (blasphemous... etc), I see that because He designed me with the weakness to become those things, He should have no grounds complaint.

-----
I didn't mean for this response to be so long, sorry. I get bored with long posts, too, so bear with me people/whoever's reading.

[kimmytree]

If God sees me as badly as you have said (blasphemous... etc), I see that because He designed me with the weakness to become those things, He should have no grounds complaint.

Wow, very well said.

[sdingfelder]

Acid Bath Slayer, you had mentioned earlier that there other locations on this website that deal specifically with Creation vs. evolution. Could I trouble you to give me the link to it, please ?

Now you're just trying to scare people into thinking "omg - I dont want to go to Hell! I better say I believe that then".

To me, thats one of the major flaws in the Christian faith. So many people are witnessed to, and come out of the situation scared to death that they're going to Hell. And usually, they end up "accepting" Christ out of fear, instead of truly believing in him.

And you cant deny thats not true. I go to a Christian school, and I sit in Chapel (which is basically a church service) every single day. Every day the same thing is preached - salvation. And every day at the end of the service, we spend a good 5 minutes praying, and the preacher wanting kids to raise their hands. You wouldnt believe how many new kids are scared into raising their hands the first day of school. Its pathetic.

If someone had no concept of gravity and had no clue what would happen if they jumped out of a plane at 25,000 feet, what would be the best way to get them to put on a parachute ? Would you simply discuss the concept while within the pressurized cabin drinking your soda and eating your peanuts ? Would you tell them that the parachute will improve their flight or make it, somehow, more comfortable ? Or, rather, would you open the door, hang them outside for a few seconds, and let them understand what would happen if they were to step out of their comfortable surroundings ?

"Hell-fire" preaching is one thing. It produces those you mentioned ("I don't want to go to Hell") -- fear-filled converts. This kind of preaching simply presents someone with the desire to jump out of the line going to Hell and into the line going to Heaven. They have no problem with going to Heaven. They most likely, though, still don't want to be around God.

Then there's the kind of modern evangelical preaching that simply says that you should "accept Jesus into your heart" because only He can provide true peace, happiness, joy, etc.. No mention of what would happen without the parachute on. Jesus is used simply as a means to make the flight more comfortable. This is in no way Biblical and the fruit borne of it is false converts. They say they're Christians, but there's no commitment to the One who has done so much for them. Once they perceive hard times (their flight gets some turbulence), they reject the jesus that was supposed to make their flight smooth and say, "Yeah. I was a Christian, but it just didn't stick." They rip the parachute from their back feeling offended that the person who told them about it was a liar. They'll certainly never put THAT thing back on again.

Biblical Evangelism is always Law to the proud, Grace to the humble. This is how the Old Covenant and the New Covenant show it to be done. Since I know you don't believe the Bible, I guess this probably doesn't mean much. But, as a Bible-Believer, my desire is to do things the way the Bible says to. So, when sharing the Truth about Christ with others, the Law is used to show people of the "jump" to come -- off this Earth and into eternity -- only one of two places to go according to the Bible. Once this is understood and there's a desire for someone to turn away from those sins that have led them away from the Lord, the gift that God has made available can be presented. At that point, the person who truly understands that they deserve judgment is going to come to the cross as a tear-filled convert knowing what God did in order to allow them to be with Him.

The first brings people who just want to avoid judgment. The second brings people looking for some sort of spiritual guarantee of their life here on Earth. The last brings people who have humble gratitude and want to thank the One who makes it possible to be with Him.

Even more pathetic, people end up targeting children. I know so many kids that are Christians, and have been since they were 3 and 4 years old. They dont know any different. You can make a little kid believe anything.

Do you make a distinction between the following: (1) "targeting" other people's children and (2) raising your own children with your own beliefs ?

If God sees me as badly as you have said (blasphemous... etc), I see that because He designed me with the weakness to become those things, He should have no grounds complaint.

But, don't you see that His "design" for you also included the ability to know not to do those things ? It included a conscience that should lead you to grieve that you've done a countless number of things to offend and deny the God that gave you life. In performing those acts of rebellion against Him, you actively reject Him. The "design" was that you would have a choice either to follow what you know to be right or to make a choice against the One who wants you to follow with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

Years ago, there was a case of rape in South Florida and the judge literally ruled that it was the woman's fault for dressing the way she did. How unconscionable is that !!?? Because the guy who got away with it was "made" with that weakness, do you think that the judge should have no grounds for convicting ? Clearly, this judge's rule was flat-out wrong. There's no excuse for that to happen to anyone. No judge worth his appointment would ever allow for a crime to occur without due penalty. As a good and righteous Judge, He will bring right justice.

Have you ever been given a ticket for speeding and you just didn't know the speed limit ? Even ignorance of the law is no excuse. But in His Mercy, He did give each person a conscience to know that they've gone against His Will.

[Spirited Away]

But, don't you see that His "design" for you also included the ability to know not to do those things ? It included a conscience that should lead you to grieve that you've done a countless number of things to offend and deny the God that gave you life. In performing those acts of rebellion against Him, you actively reject Him. The "design" was that you would have a choice either to follow what you know to be right or to make a choice against the One who wants you to follow with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
Years ago, there was a case of rape in South Florida and the judge literally ruled that it was the woman's fault for dressing the way she did. How unconscionable is that !!?? Because the guy who got away with it was "made" with that weakness, do you think that the judge should have no grounds for convicting ? Clearly, this judge's rule was flat-out wrong. There's no excuse for that to happen to anyone. No judge worth his appointment would ever allow for a crime to occur without due penalty. As a good and righteous Judge, He will bring right justice.
Have you ever been given a ticket for speeding and you just didn't know the speed limit ? Even ignorance of the law is no excuse. But in His Mercy, He did give each person a conscience to know that they've gone against His Will.

You said, and I quote, that if I've lied, stolen, used the Lord's Name in vain, looked at someone with lustful thoughts, then I am a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. While He instilled in me the the ability not to do those things, He also gave me the weakness to be tempted and seduced by them. Put a cookie in front of a child and he/she will reach for it. He created us in His image, but we do not inherit His Perfection, therefore, He should not fault us for the sins that we were too weak "at heart", too imperfect, to reject.

There is no excuse for that to happen to anyone, you're absolutely right, but there is reason for it. Note that reasons do not excuse, they simply explain. The rapist, in his weak, troubled mind, rejected his conscience, plain and simple. What made him weak if not his own imperfections?

If God is a good and righteous Judge as you say, He will indeed grant true justice, taken all things in consideration, including our deficiencies.

Ignorance of the law is not excusable, but it is a reason why I would have been caught speeding. Who made me ignorant? Myself, perhaps, but my imperfections guided me.

[sdingfelder]

Note that reasons do not excuse, they simply explain.

I couldn't agree with you more.

If you tell a child not to touch a hot stove, the reason they touch it is because of their temptation -- their desire to "see for themselves". Having that reason doesn't mean they don't get burned.

In the same way, standing in front of a judge and giving the reason/reasons for breaking the law doesn't take away the penalty for breaking those laws. In fact, explaining to a judge any reason for breaking a crime is simply an indictment that you actually did perform the crime. In effect, saying that to a judge is almost as good as saying, "Yes, Judge, I did break the law, but let me tell you why." You make the judge's job that much easier in admitting guilt.

While He instilled in me the the ability not to do those things, He also gave me the weakness to be tempted and seduced by them.

If you truly believe this, then the weaknesses you've given into could've been overcome if you'd looked more to the God-instilled ability to not do them. It's easier not to listen to your conscience, though. The conscience (unless it's been seared into an inaudibility) has been given as an early warning system -- it goes off as you're about to give into some form of weakness. It sounds off to try to keep you away from those temptations.

If God is a good and righteous Judge as you say, He will indeed grant true justice, taken all things in consideration, including our deficiencies.

...and please remember that in taking all things into consideration, He did give each person an internal alarm that goes off when we're about to give into something that may require a reason or an excuse.

Does anyone ever regret doing the right thing ? How about looking back and thinking they shouldn't have done something like lie or steal ? Speaking for myself, of course, there are many things I wish I could've done differently. And each one of them boils down to not esteeming the other person as much as I did myself (which Jesus said was the 2nd greatest Commandment). I regret those things because my conscience tells me it was wrong to have done them.

[Mulder]

ahh, i missed a page. i'll try to catch up as best I can.

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one". Please study the word "one" in this verse. It is the Hebrew word "echad" which is also used in Genesis 2:24. Ask yourself how "echad" can possibly mean "one and only one".

i said i was lazy, not stupid. ive been at some form of jewish education since...birth. i just don't go to synagogue, or pray... or be jewish. let's just say i'm athiest.

Even more pathetic, people end up targeting children. I know so many kids that are Christians, and have been since they were 3 and 4 years old. They dont know any different. You can make a little kid believe anything.

i completely agree. that's how i ended up as an...athiest. I was raised as jew, and never questioned it until after my batmitzvah. I don't regret having one... but I do regret knowing that it meant absolutely nothing to me, and probably never will.
the same goes for anyone raised as an evangelical...christian or messianic jew. Children don't question whether God is there or not, because they are innocent, and trusting. And sometimes people take advantage of the trusting nature of children. I myself have been corrupted by my parents. I still spout sayings that I know to be false only because my mom told me they were true. Doesn't the same go for a child and a religion?

I'm just curious (because the Jewish community considers jews for jesus taboo), were you raised in a jewish environment or a messianic one? I wouldn't question your beliefs if you were raised in a jewish environment, but I definitely would consider your family's effect on you if it's the latter.

I myself have decided, after visiting Israel and feeling no faith whatsoever, to take 2 years off of religion, and see where I end up. I think thats the only way to separate your beliefs from your parents.

[sdingfelder]

Good morning, insomniac.

In no way did I mean to imply that you were stupid. If it came off that way, please forgive me. The reason I mentioned the Shema is because we were talking about how you can believe in Messiah and still believe that God is One.

The Hebrew word "echad" means "composite one". God uses this word to describe Himself in the Shema, but the same word is used to describe a husband and wife after being married in Genesis 2:24. If "echad" means "one and only one", there's no way that a husband and wife could ever become "echad".

I'm just curious (because the Jewish community considers jews for jesus taboo), were you raised in a jewish environment or a messianic one?

I was definitely not raised with any knowledge of Messianic Judaism. The name "Jesus" was worse than a 4-letter curse word in my home. My father had no tolerance for anything Christian. He was the president of our synogogue (a Conservative one) for a number of years (this was a political position and not a religious one -- he wasn't a rabbi) but something happened that got him so angry that we simply stopped going to shul.

Really, all we ever did growing up was hold Passover and Channukah. In those, though there was zero opening of Tanach - zero reading of Scripture. It wasn't until I was much older that I actually started reading Tanach for myself -- this only after realizing that it was not authored by men. When I actually read the Exodus for myself, I realized that these were MY people that had to sprinkle the lamb's blood on their doorposts and walked on dry land after the Red Sea was parted. Your people, too.

Being Jewish growing up never meant anything except that I was separated from 95% of my friends because they had no idea why I couldn't eat bread for 8 days. My parents never even explained to me what being Jewish meant. It was hollow tradition.

I coudn't encourage you enough to please read Tanach for yourself. Read Isaiah (Yeshayahu) 53 (written over 700 years before Messiah's birth) and see who it clearly refers to. Read Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 9:9, Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6. After you're done with those, there are plenty more to follow -- if you're at all interested.

Prove to yourself why the first people who followed Christ (which is simply Greek for Messiah) were Jewish people. Please.

[Spirited Away]

Yes! Haha, they will get burned and they will learn from it. We are curious creatures "at heart". I still don't understand how, if God gave us the ability to be curious (among other things), and to learn, that He would punish us for the bad things that result from our learning. Isn't that like, making me to learn to cook and try out recipes and even mixing them, and then yell at me or punish me** when the food tastes bad.

If you can hold off responding to me until the next time I post in here, I'd appreciate it. I'm not done with my thoughts on your latest response yet, but I am pressed to study for three impending finals this week. I always like to be thorough with debates.

Until then, have a good week.

**In some cultures, and even in mainstream thought, if a girl can't cook, she isn't "wife" material. <-- a kind of punishment, in my opinion.

--------------
Cont'd.

If you truly believe this, then the weaknesses you've given into could've been overcome if you'd looked more to the God-instilled ability to not do them. It's easier not to listen to your conscience, though. The conscience (unless it's been seared into an inaudibility) has been given as an early warning system -- it goes off as you're about to give into some form of weakness. It sounds off to try to keep you away from those temptations.

Is it really easy to not listen to conscience? If my conscience exists to tell me the right things, and I know they are right, why would it be hard to listen? Because of weakness. What else? Weakness that comes from our imperfection. To overcome imperfection, to be perfect? No one can be perfect except God.

Does anyone ever regret doing the right thing ? How about looking back and thinking they shouldn't have done something like lie or steal ? Speaking for myself, of course, there are many things I wish I could've done differently. And each one of them boils down to not esteeming the other person as much as I did myself (which Jesus said was the 2nd greatest Commandment). I regret those things because my conscience tells me it was wrong to have done them.

Actually, I did regret doing the right thing once. My conscience agreed with me at the time, that I should tell the truth about my Aunts' feud to my niece so that she can be prepared to face their rivalry. Keeping quiet when she asked would have been 1) lying, 2) putting her in a situation where she doesn't know where she stands, and 3) confusing the shit out of her. Now she's pulled into this crazy game of tug-o-war, and what's worse, she's taking sides. I thought that was the right thing at the time, but I guess what's "right", even by our conscience standards, is questionable at times. "Right" and "conscience", is rather subjective, and can be fickles things.

Your point is very well made. In no way would I ever imply that you have to be Christian to care about others. Even worse, I'd have to be blind to say that all those who call themselves "Christian" do care about others.

But, being a Christian is first-and-foremost about caring about God and the things that are important to Him. And what's important to Him is that people turn from that which takes them away from Him -- their sin -- and that they turn to Him.

I have nothing to gain from writing these words. I'm certainly not winning a popularity contest. In fact, if you want to win a popularity contest do NOT do what I'm doing.

I don't know if you're married, but if your spouse were to write you a bunch of love letters and you never even opened the envelopes, how unkind would that be ? God could have left us all guessing as to what He requires to be with Him, but He didn't. He gave us 66 Books that tell us how loving, kind, good, and righteous He is. The Bible says He takes no pleasure in the death of the those who reject Him.

I actually read this from a Harvard Case Study about an Ophthalmologist in India who devoted his life to helping as many blind people in India as he can. I did not have time to go back and read the title nor look for the author as it was a case study we had to read before answering a series of service related questions for my Service Operations final.

The Ophthalmologist said "You do not have to be religious to serve God, you can serve humanity and serve God." He is a devoted Christian who believes that God gave him the purpose and the means to help people, yet he can say that we do not need to be religious to be useful to God. He summed up my beliefs in one sentence, that man.

The love letters may be left unopened. True unconditional love for a person need not to be returned in kind. If I am a mother and my children hates me for whatever reason and I love them even in their hate and with their flaws, wouldn't you call that unconditional love? Yes, it would be nice if they reciprocate my feelings, but my love for them shouldn't change if I can say I love them unconditionally.

If there are conditions to by loved by Him, then who is the one not being fair here?

[sdingfelder]

If you can hold off responding to me until the next time I post in here, I'd appreciate it. I'm not done with my thoughts on your latest response yet, but I am pressed to study for three impending finals this week. I always like to be thorough with debates.

Until then, have a good week.

I look forward to your additional thoughts, Spirited Away.

I hope you do well on your finals...

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Post edited: 12/28/06 (after Spirited Away's continuation)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Is it really easy to not listen to conscience? If my conscience exists to tell me the right things, and I know they are right, why would it be hard to listen? Because of weakness. What else? Weakness that comes from our imperfection. To overcome imperfection, to be perfect? No one can be perfect except God.

How many times have you heard someone say that they believe they're going to make it Heaven because they "did the best they could" ? Your understanding of "weakness" here is the exact reason that people don't do the "best they could" because they could ALWAYS have done a little better. They could always have turned away from something their conscience told them to. Instead, they reject their conscience by giving an excuse that they're weak and that they're not perfect. They succumb to that which their conscience tells them to reject.

You're right that there none perfect except God. But unless you understand the due judgement coming to each person who's broken His Commandments, then you cannot understand His boundless Mercy and Grace in paying the fine for those transgressions that we've all committed.

The only Book to show itself to be archeologically, historically, and prophetically accurate gives details about the One, True God and His requirement for perfection. If anyone thinks that the good works they perform are "good enough" to warrant His approval, then they're looking to self-righteousness and not His righteousness.

Actually, I did regret doing the right thing once. My conscience agreed with me at the time, that I should tell the truth about my Aunts' feud to my niece so that she can be prepared to face their rivalry. Keeping quiet when she asked would have been 1) lying, 2) putting her in a situation where she doesn't know where she stands, and 3) confusing the shit out of her. Now she's pulled into this crazy game of tug-o-war, and what's worse, she's taking sides. I thought that was the right thing at the time, but I guess what's "right", even by our conscience standards, is questionable at times. "Right" and "conscience", is rather subjective, and can be fickles things.

That is unfortunate that it didn't work out the way you wanted. Even though the outcome wasn't as you'd have liked, though, would you have appreciated someone preparing you for a confrontation that they knew was coming and you didn't ? You showed that you cared for someone.

I actually read this from a Harvard Case Study about an Ophthalmologist in India who devoted his life to helping as many blind people in India as he can. I did not have time to go back and read the title nor look for the author as it was a case study we had to read before answering a series of service related questions for my Service Operations final.

The Ophthalmologist said "You do not have to be religious to serve God, you can serve humanity and serve God." He is a devoted Christian who believes that God gave him the purpose and the means to help people, yet he can say that we do not need to be religious to be useful to God. He summed up my beliefs in one sentence, that man.

Interesting. I hadn't heard about this guy.

The word "religious", though, is so relative. What does it mean to you ? We can all check the dictionary for what Mr. Webster thinks, but I would agree with this guy ("You do not have to be religious to serve God...") since I don't see myself as religious based on my definition based on how I've seen the word used. To me, religion is defined by the outward tradition made by man in order for him to make himself pleasing to God. I don't believe there's anything I can do to make myself pleasing to God. I've broken His Commandments and am a transgressor of His Laws. The only way I'm pleasing to Him is because of the fact that He did something to allow me to approach Him.

"[Y]ou can serve humanity and serve God." What good would it do for me to build Habitat for Humanity homes during every work day and at night burn down the homes of neighboring communities so that there's more room for Habitat homes ? Of course, it wouldn't do any good. My evil deeds would immediately put a black spot on my "good deeds". In the same way, doing nice things for others is great for those it helps, but it means nothing to God as I continue to break His Commandments which He gave along with the knowledge not to break them.

The love letters may be left unopened. True unconditional love for a person need not to be returned in kind. If I am a mother and my children hates me for whatever reason and I love them even in their hate and with their flaws, wouldn't you call that unconditional love? Yes, it would be nice if they reciprocate my feelings, but my love for them shouldn't change if I can say I love them unconditionally.

If there are conditions to by loved by Him, then who is the one not being fair here?

First, who ever said that God gave unconditional love ? Even when He gave the Commandments to Moses, there were conditions. He specifically said that IF you keep these Commandments, you'll be blessed. He also said that if you do not keep them, you'll receive His judgment.

Unconditional love is a wonderful and beautiful concept, but it doesn't apply to a Holy and Righteous God.

Second, any parent who wants to bless their child with gifts would find themselves creating a monster if they continually give those gifts without expecting the child to be pleasing to them. How can a parent expect the child to come back to a right relationship if wrong behavior supplies the child's desires ? There's no incentive for the child to end that which is displeasing the parent. The logical conclusion is that the gifts must stop until the child turns away from that which is not pleasing to the parent.

Please don't forget that the parent's job is to protect and raise the child. When I say that the child must do that which pleases the parent, I mean that the fundamental and foundational desire of the parent is to do what's best for the child. I tell my children not to run in a parking lot NOT because I don't want them to enjoy the gift of being able to run, jump, and play. I tell them not to run in the parking lot because I know there's danger. In the same way, God's Commandments tell us not to do things that He knows are hurtful and dangerous.

Remember, also, that the parent that has the child that "hates them for whatever reason" has got to be broken-hearted that they don't have a loving relationship with their child. That parent's greatest desire is to bless their child with awesome gifts, but (again) how can disobedience be rewarded ?? This is more like how God looks to those who have rejected His Son and do not repent of the transgressions they've committed.

[kimmytree]

If you can hold off responding to me until the next time I post in here, I'd appreciate it. I'm not done with my thoughts on your latest response yet, but I am pressed to study for three impending finals this week. I always like to be thorough with debates.

Same here.

[NoSex]

Acid Bath Slayer, you had mentioned earlier that there other locations on this website that deal specifically with Creation vs. evolution. Could I trouble you to give me the link to it, please ?

Here are a few threads you might be interested in (Sorry to be slow on this.):

The Problem of Free Will
Did Jesus Exist?
Creation or Evolution?
Does God Exist?

Have at it.

[Spirited Away]

I edited my post to keep it all in one place for easy reading. I thought I would have finished in a couple of days time, but school is a scary place. =] I apologize for the wait and the intermission to this thread.

happykmd, if you meant you had finals, too, how did you do?!? I'm still waiting on my grades.

[kimmytree]

^ Eeeeep. All but two kids out of 23 failed the Eng/Lit, so I definately have a F in the class now. I'm not sure about math yet, but I think everything else is okay.

Hopefully you did ok on yours!

[AngelinaTaylor]

As for Creation: note that both Creation and evolution have the same fossils, same data, same overall evidence.

Please, PLEASE tell me you're kidding. You think the Bible's actually a reliable source for "facts" and "proof"? HAHAHA, okay. Wow.

Wow. Just tell me you're kidding. Otherwise, I might come back and explain.

[kimmytree]

^ I agree. People try to throw bible verses and other crap out at non believers, but they have no way to back up the whole thing.

[sdingfelder]

Spirited Away,

I hope I haven't broken any rules of on-line debate here by editing a previous post in order to address your additions. Unfortunately, the blog has gone onto a new page so you'll have to go back to page 3 for the Dec 11 2006, 6:55 PM post for the edits.

Sorry for the inconvenience and for the long delay.

[sdingfelder]

Angelina Taylor,

As strongly as you clearly do not believe, I very strongly believe that "the Bible's actually a reliable source for 'facts' and 'proof'".

Acid Bath Slayer has been kind enough to point out some links to discuss Creation vs. the theory of evolution (since this is quote you included).

I look forward to getting to discuss this with you on that blog...

[AngelinaTaylor]

Angelina Taylor,

As strongly as you clearly do not believe, I very strongly believe that "the Bible's actually a reliable source for 'facts' and 'proof'".

Acid Bath Slayer has been kind enough to point out some links to discuss Creation vs. the theory of evolution (since this is quote you included).

I look forward to getting to discuss this with you on that blog...

Seriously? You're actually serious?

The bible was a work, written thousands of years ago by men and women who thought the earth was flat, and for whom a wheelbarrow for instance would've been a great example of emerging technology. To rely on such documents for "evidence and facts", as well as our worldview, is simply ridiculous.

There's a distinction which you fail to note. Belief is not knowledge. Facts don't go hand in hand with belief. Proof doesn't either. So your argument fails.

The bible is a source of belief, and facts don't emerge from belief. I mean, come on. EVERY religion preaches "truth" of propositions for which no evidence is even attainable.

How do you know which religion is true? You can't. That's a tiny problem with using the bible as a valid, historical source, isn't it?

[sdingfelder]

Seriously? You're actually serious?

With a big smile, yes.

I used to have the same attitude as you, though.

The bible was a work, written thousands of years ago by men and women who thought the earth was flat,

Funny that this same "flat Earth" discussion is going on on another blog here.

Question for you: Where did you get your information that women wrote the Bible ? None of the Books of the Bible were written by women. None.

Just to round out your description of the Bible, please remember that not only was it written thousands of years ago but it was also written over a period of thousands of years (from about 1500-1900 B.C to prior to 70 A.D). It was also written by 40 different authors. Those authors ranged from royalty to rags -- from kings to tent makers. Further, it is not a single book. It's a compilation of 66 Books. Finally, the Bible is the ONLY Book to have exact prophecy fulfilled. Can you describe to me exactly what's going to happen next year ? How about next week ? How about tomorrow ? Of course not. Yet the Bible has prophecy written hundreds to thousands of years before the exact fulfillment. God says that He gives prophecy to show that only He could have written it since He's outside of time. He is the God who was, is, and always will be. He has no beginning and He has no end.

and for whom a wheelbarrow for instance would've been a great example of emerging technology.

What a funny thing to say !! Do you think that because we have computers today (and modern technology, in general) that we're so far advanced ?

Did you know that the Great Pyramid could NEVER be rebuilt today ? Yet, somehow, those guys from way-back-when did something that couldn't be reproduced today. Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that there were springs at the bottom of the sea ? Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that the Earth was held up by nothing -- somehow ? This was written WAY before modern technology made it down to the bottom of the sea to have this verified and before modern technology admitted that the Earth suspended in space.

To rely on such documents for "evidence and facts", as well as our worldview, is simply ridiculous.

Recognize that it's only ridiculous because you don't agree. My evidence is proven through fulfilled prophecy. My facts are shown through Biblical account as well as secular observation. My worldview is based on understanding that those prophecies that haven't been fulfilled are going to be fulfilled since He has shown Himself to be truthful and faithful in all things.

There's a distinction which you fail to note. Belief is not knowledge. Facts don't go hand in hand with belief. Proof doesn't either. So your argument fails.

So, based on your personal beliefs, you BELIEVE my "argument" fails ?

My belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God gives me knowledge -- prior knowledge. I take the Word of God as hard fact and after the event occurs, my proof is in the fact that it happened as God said it would.

If we were having this discussion in 1947, I would tell you that the nation of Israel would be reborn on a single day. Further, with study of the Book of Daniel, I would tell you that that day would be May 15, 1948. In 1947, you'd tell me that I have no facts to back that up (and based on your statement above, you'd say that my "argument" fails) -- esp. since there'd been no Israel for almost 2000 years. Further, you'd tell me that my belief gives me no knowledge of what's going to happen. And, as of May 14, 1948, I would have no physical proof other than the Holy Scriptures to back up my belief that He is faithful to His promises. Still, as of May 16, 1948, I could come back to you and tell you that my belief prior to the facts act as proof of the event as well as further proof substantiating the document that I believe in.

The bible is a source of belief, and facts don't emerge from belief.

You're right -- facts don't emerge from belief. There's no way you can believe something to make it true. If anyone does that, it's called "self-denial". But, if your belief is based on truth, it is reality.

Take, for example, the belief that everyone gets to Heaven. How impotent would God be to allow everyone to get there ? He would not be the God described in the Bible who judges in righteousness and truth. He would not be just nor would He be good. But the One, True God of the Bible is just, good, and judges in His Righteousness and Truth. So, just because there are people out there who truly believe that they get to Heaven based on their good works doesn't make it true.

Sounds like your talking about the difference between faith and blind faith.

I mean, come on. EVERY religion preaches "truth" of propositions for which no evidence is even attainable.

Unfortunately, you're right. Every religion does put exclusivity on their flavor of beliefs. That doesn't mean, though, that they're all wrong.

There is one and only one faith that looks to the Book that has countless prophecies to know that it was not written by men. Other "holy books" either never claim to be written by God or they claim it and cannot back it up. It is that Book alone that shows itself true. It is that Book alone that you should be studying to find the only way to ensure you're right with Him.

How do you know which religion is true? You can't. That's a tiny problem with using the bible as a valid, historical source, isn't it?

Again, the Book that proves itself to do that which only God can do should get your vote. No other Book tells what's going to happen before it happens. Don't you see that only One outside of time can do this ?

*********************

Please be honest with yourself and realize that, even though you may be young, you have no guarantee of tomorrow. Just like we agreed above, your beliefs do not make something true. In the same way, NOT believing something doesn't make it NOT true. Just because you DON'T believe you'll stand in front of God and be judged, doesn't make it NOT true.

Your eternal destination hangs in the balance. You've broken the Law of God as we all have and you deserve His Righteous Judgment and His Righteous sentence of "guilty" as well do. Yet, in His Mercy and His Grace, He sent Jesus to suffer in your place and to pay the fine for your sentence of guilt. Please don't be so prideful that you reject a payment that you could never make for yourself. Again, your eternal destination hangs in the balance.

[elaboratedream]

If we were having this discussion in 1947, I would tell you that the nation of Israel would be reborn on a single day. Further, with study of the Book of Daniel, I would tell you that that day would be May 15, 1948.

could you give me the verse that says this? I can't seem to find it.

You say the bible must be accurate because prophecies have been fulfilled within it. The bible is so vague that you can hardly call anything within it prophecy.

name one specific prophecy (and cite the verse) that has been fulfilled. something specific.

I could say right now "in one thousand years, a boy will be born with blue eyes."
I just made a prophecy! GO ME! I bet that on december 29, 3006, somewhere in the world, a baby boy will be born with blue eyes.
A real prophecy would be something like "on december 29, 3006 at 2:23 PM a baby will be born with blue eyes. His name will be Aaron, and his mother's name will be Margaret. His father will be unknown, but the mother narrows it down to either Cortland or Coleton. on january 13, 3013, they find out that it was neither Cortland nor Coleton. It was the random guy she hooked up with when she was drunk, whose name happens to be Jeremy. Now Jeremy was an electrician who liked to......"

but the bible doesnt have that kind of prediction. Everything is vague.

The bible is a great story, but when you try to pass it off as fact, its as ridiculous as someone reading Harry Potter, and then living their life in fear of Voldemort coming to get them.

Please be honest with yourself and realize that, even though you may be young, you have no guarantee of tomorrow. Just like we agreed above, your beliefs do not make something true. In the same way, NOT believing something doesn't make it NOT true. Just because you DON'T believe you'll stand in front of God and be judged, doesn't make it NOT true.

Your eternal destination hangs in the balance. You've broken the Law of God as we all have and you deserve His Righteous Judgment and His Righteous sentence of "guilty" as well do. Yet, in His Mercy and His Grace, He sent Jesus to suffer in your place and to pay the fine for your sentence of guilt. Please don't be so prideful that you reject a payment that you could never make for yourself. Again, your eternal destination hangs in the balance.

This isnt in any way related to the debate, and it can almost be considered a personal attack, in addition to being complete and total bullshit.


we're getting off topic in this debate. The point of it isn't to give you an opportunity to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat, its to discuss whether or not its right to do so.

In case you haven't figured it out, I hate evangelists.

I dont care what your religion is, so long as you dont try to force it on other people. I think that's completely out of line and unnecissary.

From the viewpoint of a Satanist, evangalism is pointless. We have no interest in "saving souls" or any bullshit like that. If someone wants to be an idiot and waste their life, let them.

[AngelinaTaylor]

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 29 2006, 3:47 PM' post='2391190']
Question for you: Where did you get your information that women wrote the Bible ? None of the Books of the Bible were written by women. None. [/quote]

Counter question for you - How do you know who wrote the bible? As far as I'm informed, I'm pretty certain Hebrews wrote it. Don't you think it's kind of discriminating to say only men wrote the bible when you have no evidence?

[quote] Finally, the Bible is the ONLY Book to have exact prophecy fulfilled. Can you describe to me exactly what's going to happen next year ? How about next week ? How about tomorrow ? Of course not. Yet the Bible has prophecy written hundreds to thousands of years before the exact fulfillment. God says that He gives prophecy to show that only He could have written it since He's outside of time. He is the God who was, is, and always will be. He has no beginning and He has no end. [/quote]

Pardon my infinite ignorance, but could you explain what prophecy exactly you're talking about? And, furthermore, if what you're saying is indeed true, does that prove the existance of god? Why does it prove it?

Faith is nothing more than a willingness to await the "evidence". The Day of Judgement and all that. "Believe now and you will discover you were right". Right?

There is certainly no doubt that we want justification for our beliefs and we believe them because we think such justification is in the offing.

[quote]Did you know that the Great Pyramid could NEVER be rebuilt today ? Yet, somehow, those guys from way-back-when did something that couldn't be reproduced today. Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that there were springs at the bottom of the sea ? Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that the Earth was held up by nothing -- somehow ? This was written WAY before modern technology made it down to the bottom of the sea to have this verified and before modern technology admitted that the Earth suspended in space. [/quote]

What does that have to do with god and the accuracy of the bible?

[quote]Recognize that it's only ridiculous because you don't agree. My evidence is proven through fulfilled prophecy. My facts are shown through Biblical account as well as secular observation. My worldview is based on understanding that those prophecies that haven't been fulfilled are going to be fulfilled since He has shown Himself to be truthful and faithful in all things. [/quote]

Again, I'm waiting to see what prophecy you're talking about. What facts precisely? Do you know how many flaws the bible contains? Furthermore, do you know how many stories from the bible are found in other "holy" texts?

[quote]So, based on your personal beliefs, you BELIEVE my "argument" fails ? [/quote]

Based on basic logic, yes.

[quote]My belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God gives me knowledge -- prior knowledge. I take the Word of God as hard fact and after the event occurs, my proof is in the fact that it happened as God said it would. [/quote]

The "word of god"... how do you know it's the word of god? If you have no way to prove it, why should I have any reason to believe it?

If me and ten of my friends told you that we had a spiritual experience and actually saw Jesus in his flesh standing in my room, would you believe me? How can you base your entire life views on a book, containing such incredible writings as all the miracles it describes? I'm interested.

[quote]If we were having this discussion in 1947, I would tell you that the nation of Israel would be reborn on a single day. Further, with study of the Book of Daniel, I would tell you that that day would be May 15, 1948. In 1947, you'd tell me that I have no facts to back that up (and based on your statement above, you'd say that my "argument" fails) -- esp. since there'd been no Israel for almost 2000 years. Further, you'd tell me that my belief gives me no knowledge of what's going to happen. And, as of May 14, 1948, I would have no physical proof other than the Holy Scriptures to back up my belief that He is faithful to His promises. Still, as of May 16, 1948, I could come back to you and tell you that my belief prior to the facts act as proof of the event as well as further proof substantiating the document that I believe in. [/quote]


Can you quote the book of daniel? I'm intrigued to read it. I tried searching on the net, but nothing came up.

[quote]You're right -- facts don't emerge from belief. There's no way you can believe something to make it true. If anyone does that, it's called "self-denial". But, if your belief is based on truth, it is reality. [/quote]

Again, how do you know that it is certainly the truth?

[quote]Take, for example, the belief that everyone gets to Heaven. How impotent would God be to allow everyone to get there ? He would not be the God described in the Bible who judges in righteousness and truth. He would not be just nor would He be good. But the One, True God of the Bible is just, good, and judges in His Righteousness and Truth. So, just because there are people out there who truly believe that they get to Heaven based on their good works doesn't make it true. [/quote]

How is this relevant? My point was that facts don't emerge from pure belief. I may "believe" that I'm the greatest pianist alive, but would that make it a fact? As much as I'd love it to do so, no.

[quote]Unfortunately, you're right. Every religion does put exclusivity on their flavor of beliefs. That doesn't mean, though, that they're all wrong. [/quote]

Maybe. But they cannot all be right. And because of that, you can't ever really know which one is the "right" one.

By the way. Have you read the Koran?

[quote]There is one and only one faith that looks to the Book that has countless prophecies to know that it was not written by men. Other "holy books" either never claim to be written by God or they claim it and cannot back it up. It is that Book alone that shows itself true. It is that Book alone that you should be studying to find the only way to ensure you're right with Him. [/quote]

Really? Earlier you stated that the bible was written by 40 different men, kings, and whatnot. Now you say that book was not written by men. I might be way out of line here, but which one is it?

[quote]Again, the Book that proves itself to do that which only God can do should get your vote. No other Book tells what's going to happen before it happens. Don't you see that only One outside of time can do this ? [/quote]

Again, I'd like to hear about those prophecies. And unless you have such knowledge about other religions and other sacred texts, I don't think you should make that statement.

P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this.

[cori-catastrophe]

I think evangelism is fine, in a sence that you invite someone to church, missionaries, ect. but when it gets to the point where you are shoving your beiliefs down someone's t doesn't throat who already has different beiliefs, I do not agree. There is a certain point where it gets ridiculous.

[sdingfelder]

I apologize for my long response here. ursedonah & Angelina Taylor bring up some really good points and I'm doing my best to keep up with all these...

[quote]From ursedonah:
could you give me the verse that says this? I can't seem to find it.
[/quote]
My bad. Daniel is the prophecy of the coming of Jesus. The rebirth of Israel is mainly given in Ezekiel, but please feel free to review the following:
http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html & http://home.flash.net/~venzor/chapter1israel.htm. Please note that I don't know the guys that made these websites, but they did what looks like a good job on explaining this.
[quote]From ursedonah:
You say the bible must be accurate because prophecies have been fulfilled within it. The bible is so vague that you can hardly call anything within it prophecy.

name one specific prophecy (and cite the verse) that has been fulfilled. something specific.[/quote]
Below are just a small handful of prophecies in the Bible concerning the coming of Messiah. After reading them, I'd honestly be very interested to know how you consider them vague. For others with which I've had the pleasure of discussing issues, I've tried not to quote verses mainly because I know that most here do not believe in the integrity of the Bible. I'm doing it now because of ursedonah's specific request.

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 49:6
"Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Micah 5:2
"'But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.'"
Zechariah 9:9
""Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey."
Zehcariah 11:12
"Then I said to them, 'If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.' So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver."
Zechariah 11:13
" And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter' -that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter."
Isaiah 53:3
"He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him."
Isaiah 53:9
"And they made His grave with the wicked-But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth."
Isaiah 50:6
"I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting."
Psalm 22 (look at the whole chapter, but for this we'll look specifically at verse 18)
"They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots."

I have no idea if you know how to calculate probabilities. For anyone who doesn't, it goes like this: The chance of flipping a coin once and getting a heads up is 1 out of 2 (or one-half). The chance of flipping a coin two times in a row and getting two heads up is 1 out of 2 (for the first flip) and 1 out of 2 (for the second flip). These two probabilities are multiplied (one-half times one-half) to come to 1 out of 4 (one-quarter).

Consider the probability of one person satisfying just the prophecies above !! A child born who would be called "Mighty God" ? A Jew who would be considered a "light to the Gentiles" ? One "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting" who was born in Bethlehem ? A King who would enter Jerusalem on a specific day riding a donkey (this is the Daniel reference that I confused with Ezekiel above) ? A man who was sold for 30 pieces of silver and that money thrown to the floor of the Temple and then used to buy a plot of land ? A man who's despised and rejected ? A man who was killed with the guilty but was laid in a rich man's tomb ? A man who went through the torture of getting struck and having his beard pulled out ? A man whose clothing was taken, split, and others gambled over them ?

The chance of one person satisfying just the above prophecies is enormous !! In fact, the chance of one person fulfilling less than the above has been conservatively estimated as 1 * 10^17. That's 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 !! That estimate describes (approximately) the state of Texas covered in 2 feet of quarters. One of those quarters has a mark on it. You reach into this mass of quarters and pick out the correct quarter. That's 1 in 10^17.

And there are many, many more prophecies.
[quote]From ursedonah:
I could say right now "in one thousand years, a boy will be born with blue eyes."
I just made a prophecy! GO ME! I bet that on december 29, 3006, somewhere in the world, a baby boy will be born with blue eyes.
A real prophecy would be something like "on december 29, 3006 at 2:23 PM a baby will be born with blue eyes. His name will be Aaron, and his mother's name will be Margaret. His father will be unknown, but the mother narrows it down to either Cortland or Coleton. on january 13, 3013, they find out that it was neither Cortland nor Coleton. It was the random guy she hooked up with when she was drunk, whose name happens to be Jeremy. Now Jeremy was an electrician who liked to......"[/quote]
Your example actually does a good job of supporting my statements above. All the qualifications that you give in your example are the requirements of your baby born in 3006. The Bible's done exactly that in letting us know who the Messiah of Israel would be. His Hebrew name is Y'shua.
[quote]From ursedonah:
but the bible doesnt have that kind of prediction. Everything is vague.[/quote]
Again, please tell me how the above verses are vague.
[quote]From ursedonah:
This isnt in any way related to the debate, and it can almost be considered a personal attack, in addition to being complete and total --.

we're getting off topic in this debate. The point of it isn't to give you an opportunity to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat, its to discuss whether or not its right to do so

In case you haven't figured it out, I hate evangelists. [/quote]
Of course, this is your personal opinion, so feel free to stand firm in it. This is a blog on evangelism, so as I discuss my thoughts on evangelism and how it's done out of a concern for the eternal welfare of others, I make sure to share the fact that we're all determined a day to be judged by the very God you reject. Just as you can stand firm on your personal opinion on all subjects, you have the choice to stand firm on this rejection.

Your opinion is that we're "off topic". Again, the topic is evangelism. If you truly feel that my words are off topic, then you might do best to not address them since it simply brings more attention (and discussion).

As for your hate of evangelists, that's a shame. The Bible's very clear about the eternal destiny of those who reject His Sacrifice -- read Revelation 21:8.
[quote]From ursedonah:
I dont care what your religion is, so long as you dont try to force it on other people. I think that's completely out of line and unnecissary. [/quote]
I have to assume, then, that you don't "force" your beliefs on others, then. If that's true, which is also true ? You either (a) don't threaten others to accept your beliefs or (b) you don't believe so strongly in your "faith" that you think everyone needs to know about it.

In terms of your implication that I'm forcing what I believe on others, please explain how my words written remotely and distributed electronically and with no face-to-face encounter can "force" anything on anyone ? Honestly. My words can easily be skimmed over and disregarded. You can immediately tell where I stand in terms of my theology, my worldview, etc. You have the option to see my name listed and not even read anything I've written. I will not consider it rude for you to do that.
[quote]From ursedonah:
From the viewpoint of a Satanist, evangalism is pointless. We have no interest in "saving souls" or any -- like that. If someone wants to be an idiot and waste their life, let them.[/quote]
I'm actually very, very interested in the fact that you're a professed Satanist. Where do you get your information on the one you worship ? Do you read the Bible in order to learn more about him ? Seeing as Satan's "resume" is given so clearly in Scripture, I can't help but wonder if you see him as the prince of lies -- the great deceiver -- the accuser. What promises does the one you worship give to you for eternity ? How can you believe those promises knowing that he's described as a liar from the beginning ?

In terms of your lack of interest in "saving souls": What do you believe happens to your soul when your body takes its last breath ? Do you believe your soul is saved ?

Since you made the statement about someone wasting their life: What do your beliefs prescribe in order to NOT be an idiot and waste your life ?

I'm truly interested in your answers since I've never had the opportunity to speak to someone who's been honest enough to claim to follow Satan.

[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Counter question for you - How do you know who wrote the bible? As far as I'm informed, I'm pretty certain Hebrews wrote it. Don't you think it's kind of discriminating to say only men wrote the bible when you have no evidence? [/quote]
The Bible says who wrote it and you're exactly correct -- Jews wrote it (except for the Book of Luke -- a Gentile -- in the New Covenant). As far as whether or not it's discriminating that only men wrote the Bible: No, I don't.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Pardon my infinite ignorance, but could you explain what prophecy exactly you're talking about? And, furthermore, if what you're saying is indeed true, does that prove the existance of god? Why does it prove it? [/quote]
I hope that my previous response didn't offend you. Your choice of words "my infinite ignorance" sounds like I used poor judgment in the words I chose. If so, please forgive me. I am ignorant in many, many things and will be the first to admit it. There's no way I know as much as you do about playing the piano and if I were interested in learning, I would have to go someone I could trust whom I know has greater knowledge on the subject than I.

Please look above in my response to ursedonah for the prophecies (don't miss the fact that I got Daniel and Ezekiel mixed up). As for whether or not what I'm saying is true proving the existence of God, it most definitely does. If there's a Book that shows itself to have documented things that haven't happened yet, then it must've been written by One who knows exactly what's going to happen. There is no man that can do that, so this immediately implies that there's something greater than man. This could, though, be multiple gods. So, you gain a little trust for this document and read a little more. Trusting that this Book is not authored by man, you read it and see that it says in there that there's only One God. You find, further, that it says that throughout the Book. In fact, it says that anything else that is worshipped is a false god.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
What does that have to do with god and the accuracy of the bible?[/quote]
You had previously implied that the people back in Biblical times were a "backward people" in saying that the wheelbarrow was major technology (I'm paraphrasing, of course). I mentioned what I did about the Great Pyramid to say that they were advanced in things that we're not. Further, the other comments about science finally catching up to the teachings in the Bible shows that the Bible is accurate -- beyond what men know or believe.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Again, I'm waiting to see what prophecy you're talking about. What facts precisely? Do you know how many flaws the bible contains? Furthermore, do you know how many stories from the bible are found in other "holy" texts? [/quote]
Please see the above prophecies specifically answering ursedonah.

Please give me some flaws in the Bible that you're talking about. I'm very interested to see some.

Yes, there are many stories from the Bible that are found in other documents -- religious as well as secular. How does that mean that it's not true ?
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
The "word of god"... how do you know it's the word of god? If you have no way to prove it, why should I have any reason to believe it?[/quote]
Refer to the above discussion starting with "If there's a Book that shows itself"
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
If me and ten of my friends told you that we had a spiritual experience and actually saw Jesus in his flesh standing in my room, would you believe me?[/quote]
Actually, I wouldn't believe you because your experience would contradict the Word of God. It is not the Word that needs to change based on my experiences, opinions, or thoughts. It is me, my thoughts, my intentions, and my desires that need to change based on His Word. My desire is to know that I represent well the One who gave His life for me. In trying to represent Him, I want to make sure that others know what their eternal destiny is if they don't His Gift of Salvation -- in an attempt to show them their need for that Gift.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
How can you base your entire life views on a book, containing such incredible writings as all the miracles it describes? I'm interested.[/quote]
That Book (with incredible writing of the miracles He's performed) is the most precious thing I own since I know (not just believe) that it was authored by One outside of time. Have you ever heard what "BIBLE" stands for ? "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" -- this is clearly not based on any Hebrew or Greek translation, though...
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Can you quote the book of daniel? I'm intrigued to read it. I tried searching on the net, but nothing came up.[/quote]
Quote it ? I really wish I could. Here's a link to an on-line Bible if you're actually interested: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan001.html#top

Please do note, though, my mistake that I mentioned above: that I had mistaken Daniel for Ezekiel. You can get to the Book of Ezekiel from Blue Letter Bible's main page.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Maybe. But they cannot all be right. And because of that, you can't ever really know which one is the "right" one.

By the way. Have you read the Koran?[/quote]
Again, just because they're not all right, doesn't mean that one is not correct. Again, you base this conclusion on the "holy" documents they look to.

I have studied the Koran -- not as in-depth as the Bible, though. For me, once I find something that I know is a false document, I put it down.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Really? Earlier you stated that the bible was written by 40 different men, kings, and whatnot. Now you say that book was not written by men. I might be way out of line here, but which one is it?[/quote]
You're not out of line at all. You actually point out something in my terminology that I've been trying to correct for the exact reason that you bring up. So, thank you for reinforcing this for me.

Who writes a hand-written letter -- the author or the pen ? The author uses the pen to put the message on paper. In the same way, God is the author and He used men to write down that which He prescribed. Again, there's no way that a man can author something that's exactly fulfilled in the future.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
Again, I'd like to hear about those prophecies. And unless you have such knowledge about other religions and other sacred texts, I don't think you should make that statement.
---
Again, there are a handful of prophecies above that I'd be interested to know if you see them as vague (I'd asked ursedonah, but I'd like to get your comments as well).

While in college and before trying to prove my wife wrong about her belief in Jesus, I studied all kinds of religions (Nation of Islam, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hare Krishna-ism, etc.) Of course, since I grew up with Judaism I already knew about what it was like to be part of a religion that was steeped in empty tradition. So, having looked into the world of these other religions, I can say without question that true faith in the Messiah of Israel is unlike every other "religion". All other religions are "works-based" (the things I do earn my way into Heaven) as opposed to "faith-based" (only what God's done will get me to Heaven).
***
From Angelina Taylor:
P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this.
---
I'd very much like to see this. Please do expand...
***
From Obscure Enigma:
I think evangelism is fine, in a sence that you invite someone to church, missionaries, ect. but when it gets to the point where you are shoving your beiliefs down someone's t doesn't throat who already has different beiliefs, I do not agree. There is a certain point where it gets ridiculous.
---
I agree. If I were ever to see a handful of "Christians" holding down someone and making them eat pages from the Bible, I'd get them to stop immediately.

Consider this: What does it mean to shove your beliefs down someone's throat ? Are you talking about the modern-day "inquisition" of "Accept my religion or die ?" Don't get Islam & medieval Catholicism confused with Christianity.

How would you get a sleeping family out of their burning home ? Would you quietly knock on their door and hope not to abruptly disturb any good dreams they may be experiencing ? Or would you bang on that door to get them up and out since you're honestly concerned for their safety ?

How would you get the guy sitting next to you on a plane to put on his parachute on as the flight's going down ? Would you tell him that the parachute will make the movie he's watching more enjoyable ? Or would you take off his headphones and tell him that everyone's about to jump out of an airplane at 25,000 feet and if he doesn't have a parachute on, he's going to experience the law of gravity and go splat ?

True evangelism is an expression of concern for others.

Where do you believe all those who aren't born again (John 3:3) are going to spend eternity ?

[AngelinaTaylor]

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

You mean Jesus? He was a historical figure rather than a religious one. I don't know if I mentioned this, but he was killed for crimes against the state.. not religious crimes. The church twisted all that.

Consider the probability of one person satisfying just the prophecies above !! A child born who would be called "Mighty God" ? A Jew who would be considered a "light to the Gentiles" ? One "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting" who was born in Bethlehem ? A King who would enter Jerusalem on a specific day riding a donkey (this is the Daniel reference that I confused with Ezekiel above) ? A man who was sold for 30 pieces of silver and that money thrown to the floor of the Temple and then used to buy a plot of land ? A man who's despised and rejected ? A man who was killed with the guilty but was laid in a rich man's tomb ? A man who went through the torture of getting struck and having his beard pulled out ? A man whose clothing was taken, split, and others gambled over them ?

And how do we know about these events? From the bible. Unless I'm wrong, it's probably the one source where you can read about them. See my point?

Please look above in my response to ursedonah for the prophecies (don't miss the fact that I got Daniel and Ezekiel mixed up). As for whether or not what I'm saying is true proving the existence of God, it most definitely does. If there's a Book that shows itself to have documented things that haven't happened yet, then it must've been written by One who knows exactly what's going to happen. There is no man that can do that, so this immediately implies that there's something greater than man. This could, though, be multiple gods. So, you gain a little trust for this document and read a little more. Trusting that this Book is not authored by man, you read it and see that it says in there that there's only One God. You find, further, that it says that throughout the Book. In fact, it says that anything else that is worshipped is a false god.

Please refer to my response earlier. How are those prophecies? First, they are too vague. And they don't prove anything really. Either that or I'm really thick-minded. Oh yeah, and I could not find the one where May 15th is mentioned.

Further, the other comments about science finally catching up to the teachings in the Bible shows that the Bible is accurate -- beyond what men know or believe.

How is science proving that the bible is accurate? Interestingly, archeologists have done research and come to quite a few conclusions. Here:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells."

If you would like to read more, this is the site:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/jerques.htm

I would not doubt that, since I've studied about Israel Finkelstein for a while now.

Please give me some flaws in the Bible that you're talking about. I'm very interested to see some.

Here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...sistencies.html

There are so many of them that you probably won't have time to read through them all. It's very intriguing though.

Yes, there are many stories from the Bible that are found in other documents -- religious as well as secular. How does that mean that it's not true ?

If the bible is proposing itself as the "only truth", how could that be logical then?

I've read both the koran and the bible (although I read the bible a good while ago, so I've started reading it again). The beginnings are oh so similar - Adam learning the names of all animals, Adam and his wife being in "heaven" (eden) and being forbidden to eat from a particular tree but then, of course, being sent out because they didn't obey that order; people being rescued from a Pharaoh, a see being divided in two... There are more, but I can't remember right now. Thought it'd be interesting.

My desire is to know that I represent well the One who gave His life for me. In trying to represent Him, I want to make sure that others know what their eternal destiny is if they don't His Gift of Salvation -- in an attempt to show them their need for that Gift.

I feel bad for people who still believe Jesus died for their sins. But, you know - sanity comes in numbers.

That Book (with incredible writing of the miracles He's performed) is the most precious thing I own since I know (not just believe) that it was authored by One outside of time.

No, you don't "know". You believe. Religion is based on faith, not facts. Hence it's a religion. Pure, blind faith. That's why it's not good enough for me.

Who writes a hand-written letter -- the author or the pen ? The author uses the pen to put the message on paper. In the same way, God is the author and He used men to write down that which He prescribed. Again, there's no way that a man can author something that's exactly fulfilled in the future.

Yeah, I don't buy this. I can't base my entire life beliefs on something like that. The prophecies which you claim prove the bible right are not good enough. I didn't find anything particularly intriguing about them.

While in college and before trying to prove my wife wrong about her belief in Jesus, I studied all kinds of religions (Nation of Islam, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hare Krishna-ism, etc.) Of course, since I grew up with Judaism I already knew about what it was like to be part of a religion that was steeped in empty tradition. So, having looked into the world of these other religions, I can say without question that true faith in the Messiah of Israel is unlike every other "religion". All other religions are "works-based" (the things I do earn my way into Heaven) as opposed to "faith-based" (only what God's done will get me to Heaven).

My philosophy/religions professor has three of four Ph.Ds in theology, and he's a prof at a major university here. He has mentioned that when it comes down to it, all religions are technically the same - they preach similar things, have very similar elements. If you think Christianity is unique, you're wrong. It's flawed, as are all other religions.


"P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this."
---

I said that earlier. I'd like to quote a book I'm reading (The End of Faith by Sam Harris - an excellent read, and I suggest you pick it up. You won't regret it).

"[...] Evidence . . . is the only thing that suggest that a given belief is really about the world in the first place. We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them "religious"; otherwise, they are likely to be called "mad," "psychotic," or "delusional." Most people of faith are perfectly sane, of course, even those who commit atrocities on account of their beliefs. But what is the difference between a man who believes that God will reward him with seventy-two virgins if he kills a score of Jewish teenagers, and one who believes that creatures from Alpha Centauri are beaming him messages of world peace through his hair dryer? There is a difference, to be sure, but it is not one that places religious faith in a flattering light.

It takes certain kind of person to believe what no one else believes. To be ruled by ideas for which you have no evidence . . . is generally a sign that something is seriously wrong with your mind. Clearly, there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are. This is not surprising, since most religions have merely canonized a few products of ancient ignorance and derangement and passed them down to us as though they were primordial truths. This leaves billions of us to believe what no sane person could believe on his own....

The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.... We are, even know, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who would have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible?"

[elaboratedream]

I apologize for my long response here. ursedonah & Angelina Taylor bring up some really good points and I'm doing my best to keep up with all these...
My bad. Daniel is the prophecy of the coming of Jesus. The rebirth of Israel is mainly given in Ezekiel, but please feel free to review the following:
http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html & http://home.flash.net/~venzor/chapter1israel.htm.

I still can't seem to find that verse that says it would be May 15, 1948.

As for those verses...
First, everyone had access to these "prophecies". Anyone could study them and create a story from them.
Second, you have no way of proving that ANY of them came true. Sure, the bible says it. But there is no other source that proves any of that.

And you delude yourself to think that just because someone predicted something, that means they were inspired by god.
What about when meteorologists predict a hurricane? Or when someone predicts when the next solar eclipse will be? Or when they predict how long it will be until the planets align a certain way? Are all those predictions inspired by god?
And throughout history, there have been oracles and soothesayers who have predicted things very accurately. Many, if not all, of these were pagans.

The bible isnt the only source of prophecies and predictions.

As for your hate of evangelists, that's a shame. The Bible's very clear about the eternal destiny of those who reject His Sacrifice -- read Revelation 21:8.

once again, trying to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat.

I have to assume, then, that you don't "force" your beliefs on others, then. If that's true, which is also true ? You either (a) don't threaten others to accept your beliefs or (b) you don't believe so strongly in your "faith" that you think everyone needs to know about it.

No, I dont threaten others in an attempt for them to accept my beliefs. Really, I could care less. Ignorance annoys me. Therefore, if someone presents him/herself as someone who would be open to what I have to say, I will explain things to them.
I dont, however, threaten anyone or really expect them to accept my beliefs.

In terms of your implication that I'm forcing what I believe on others, please explain how my words written remotely and distributed electronically and with no face-to-face encounter can "force" anything on anyone ? Honestly. My words can easily be skimmed over and disregarded. You can immediately tell where I stand in terms of my theology, my worldview, etc. You have the option to see my name listed and not even read anything I've written. I will not consider it rude for you to do that.

By threatening someone in the way you did, you are trying to shove your beliefs down their throat.
And dont even bother trying to argue that you weren't threatening. Christians love to threaten people. "You believe what I believe or you're going to burn for the rest of eternity"

This is a debate; therefore, one is expected to read everything their opponent says so that they can thoroughly refute it.

I'm actually very, very interested in the fact that you're a professed Satanist. Where do you get your information on the one you worship ? Do you read the Bible in order to learn more about him ? Seeing as Satan's "resume" is given so clearly in Scripture, I can't help but wonder if you see him as the prince of lies -- the great deceiver -- the accuser. What promises does the one you worship give to you for eternity ? How can you believe those promises knowing that he's described as a liar from the beginning ?

Obviously, you know absolutely nothing about Satanism.
I'd be happy to tell you anything you want to know about my religion, but first we have to clear one thing up.
Satanism is not the worship of Satan
In fact, I dont believe in god or satan. at least not in the way Christians do.
In Satanism, Satan is a metaphor and often the subject of satire.
Read the nine satanic statements if you would like to know what we believe about "satan"

In terms of your lack of interest in "saving souls": What do you believe happens to your soul when your body takes its last breath ? Do you believe your soul is saved ?

I don't believe in life after death in any form.

Since you made the statement about someone wasting their life: What do your beliefs prescribe in order to NOT be an idiot and waste your life ?

Do whatever gives you pleasure, experience everything you can, because you only get one chance. Live with no regrets. Dont live your life in fear (including the fear of god)
But there are a few guidelines in that.
look up the nine satanic sins and the eleven satanic rules of the earth for more information on said guidlines

but if you want to know more about satanism, feel free to PM me, or go to the Satanism Debate

[sdingfelder]

Quick question on replying: Are there a limited number of quote delimiters that go into a post ?

From Angelina Taylor:
You mean Jesus? He was a historical figure rather than a religious one. I don't know if I mentioned this, but he was killed for crimes against the state.. not religious crimes. The church twisted all that.

First, I don't understand how you could say that Jesus was an historic vs. religious figure. Christianity is a religion that, at its core, is based on The Christ -- Jesus. He's only a historic figure to those who are not Christians and choose not to follow His teachings.

As for Him being killed for non-religious crimes, please point me to where you got that piece of information. John 5:18 and Luke 22:70-71 very clearly state the reason why the Jews sought to have Him killed. His own teachings describe what he brought to the nation of Israel as being the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and as something sufficient to tear apart Judaism.

From Angelina Taylor:
And how do we know about these events? From the bible. Unless I'm wrong, it's probably the one source where you can read about them. See my point?

Actually, we have secular documents (such as the writings of Josephus -- even if you do remove the disputed portions regarding Jesus) that corroborate the Bible.

From Angelina Taylor:
Please refer to my response earlier. How are those prophecies? First, they are too vague. And they don't prove anything really. Either that or I'm really thick-minded. Oh yeah, and I could not find the one where May 15th is mentioned.

I've got to tell you that I'm very surprised that you'd say that those handful of prophecies on Messiah are vague. Honestly, how is it vague that a child would be born in Bethlehem ? How is it vague that One would be given as a light to the Gentiles ? How is it vague that there would be One that made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death ? How is it vague that they plucked His beard out and that His clothing were gambled for ? How are they vague ?

How about this for a vague prophecy ? It isn't prophetic of Messiah, but it is prophetic nonetheless. Read Isaiah 44:28 & Isaiah 45:1. Then look at 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 & Ezra 1:1-2. Finally, look at the archaeology and history:
http://lordibelieve.org/arch/arch3/sld004.htm
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...blical_prophecy

As I mentioned above, for the May 15th prophecy, please refer to http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html.

From Angelina Taylor:
I would not doubt that, since I've studied about Israel Finkelstein for a while now.

I'm not surprised that there's someone in Finkelstein's position that doesn't believe the Hebrew Scriptures. When I was in Israel, I met tons of Jews who don't even believe in God at all. How they could live in Israel and be so blind is beyond me. Never before has a separate people had no homeland for 2000 years and kept their culture and "separate-ness". Never before has a language been resurrected after over 1000 years as Hebrew has.

Please realize that the same evidence that Finkelstein reviews is seen by both sides and all that each expert says is prefaced with "I believe...", "I don't believe...", or "...as far as I can judge." Refer to http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week723/cover.html

I think one thing that is really funny about what Finkelstein has said ("evidence indicates that this part of Genesis was a national epic created in the seventh century BCE which successfully joined many regional legendary ancestors into one unified tradition"). Consider that if this is true, then Genesis was written during the time of Isaiah the Prophet. Why would there be a nation of Israel about to be brought captive to Babylon (which is definitely a point in secular fact as well as history) if the very Book that defines who a Jew is was just recently written ?

***
From Angelina Taylor:
There are so many of them that you probably won't have time to read through them all. It's very intriguing though.
---
I read through the first dozen or so and see why you say that I won't have time to read through them all. Do you have your top three or so favorites from this list ? As opposed to describing the Believer's side starting with #1, I was hoping to look at the ones that mean the most to you in order to correct what Mr. Morgan has compiled on this page.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
I've read both the koran and the bible (although I read the bible a good while ago, so I've started reading it again). The beginnings are oh so similar - Adam learning the names of all animals, Adam and his wife being in "heaven" (eden) and being forbidden to eat from a particular tree but then, of course, being sent out because they didn't obey that order; people being rescued from a Pharaoh, a see being divided in two... There are more, but I can't remember right now. Thought it'd be interesting.
---
Realize just a few of the main differences between the Quran and the Bible:
Quran: Written in less than one man's lifetime based on the words given by one man in one language
Bible: Written over a period of over 1600 years by 40 authors (ranging from priests to kings to prophets to tent makers) in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek

Quran: Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael -- Ishmael is the son of promise
Bible: Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Isaac -- Isaac is the son of promise

Quran: The Jews are to be destroyed
Bible: The Jews are the chosen people and called "the apple of His eye" (Zechariah 2:8)

Quran: Teaches that your works will determine whether or not you make it to the Muslim Heaven (but only one way to know if you'll make it or not)
Bible: Teaches that your works are as filthy rags to the Righteous and Holy God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Quran: The only way to know for sure that you can make it to the Muslim Heaven -- die in jihad
Bible: The only way to know for sure that you can make it to Heaven -- faith

Quran: The god of Islam can change his mind any time he wants. This even includes those who make it to the Muslim Heaven.
Bible: The God of Israel is unchanging. His unconditional promises can never be broken.

Since they can't both be right, it must be that only one of them or neither of them are.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
I feel bad for people who still believe Jesus died for their sins. But, you know - sanity comes in numbers.
---
The feeling is mutual. Those who truly believe Messiah died for their sins truly grieve for those who don't believe. If you were to receive the cure to a deadly disease and then be handed a gym bag full of of the cure, would you simply take that gym bag and store it away ? I hope not !! Instead, wouldn't you rush to give it to others since you've just been cured ? Even if someone you tried to hand it to said that they didn't have any disease, wouldn't you look at them and show them the evident signs that they're diseased and they NEED TO APPROPRIATE this cure ??

This is the purpose of God's Law. As nice a person as you may be, you've lied at some point in your life. You've taken something at some point in your life -- it doesn't matter the value. You, as we all are, are guilty and justice will be served. If you have no way to pay the price for your freedom, your eternal destiny is guaranteed.

I feel bad for people who still don't believe Jesus dies for their sins. But, you know -- truth doesn't necessarily come in numbers.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
No, you don't "know". You believe. Religion is based on faith, not facts. Hence it's a religion. Pure, blind faith. That's why it's not good enough for me.
---
Consider a little boy who is looking at a heater. His father warns him that it's hot. The child say, "OK. I believe it's hot." At that point, he has an intellectual belief that the heater is hot. When his dad leaves the room, he says, "I wonder if it really is hot ?" He then reaches out his hand and grabs the heater bar with his fingers. The second his flesh burns he stops believing the heater is hot. He now knows it's hot ! He has moved out of the realm of "gaith" and into the realm of "experience".

Two minutes later, a heater expert come in and says, "Son, I have a degree in the study of heat, heat exchange, and heaters. That heater is definitely not hot. I can prove it to you." That child would probably say, "Mr. Expert, I don't care how many degrees you have. I know that that heater is hot -- I touched it !! I'm not in the realm of belief, I'm in the realm of experience. The door's that way. Goodbye."
***
From Angelina Taylor:
Yeah, I don't buy this. I can't base my entire life beliefs on something like that. The prophecies which you claim prove the bible right are not good enough. I didn't find anything particularly intriguing about them.
---
I understand. I couldn't either when I looked at the Bible as an old book written by a bunch of guys who died a long time ago.

So instead of basing your entire life's beliefs on something like the Bible, you're choosing to base your entire life's beliefs on what makes sense to you based on what people have written. One Book claims to be from God. The others make no such claim and you choose them. Men are wrong every single day. Please don't make mistakes based on the teachings of men.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
He has mentioned that when it comes down to it, all religions are technically the same - they preach similar things, have very similar elements. If you think Christianity is unique, you're wrong.
---
The problem with your logic is that you're basing your opinion solely on the thoughts and opinions of the guy who said that -- no matter how many degrees he has. You've elevated his words because of the letters after his name and the fact that he stands in front of a number of people willing to listen. As anyone, he can be deceived.

As for your statement that there's nothing unique about Christianity: please admit that just because your teacher says it doesn't make it correct. I mentioned above a few differences between the Quran and the Bible, but realize that EVERY RELIGION other than Biblical Christianity looks to the works you perform as being the means by which to make it to Heaven. Biblical Christianity is defined by justification through faith alone. I say "Biblical Christianity" because there are many misled "Christian" sects that have gone back to a works-based theology that contradicts the plain reading of the Bible.

The works we do mean nothing to a Righteous and Holy God.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
The End of Faith by Sam Harris
---
I'm glad you enjoyed the book by Mr. Harris. Honestly, I will not read it knowing that it's merely the thoughts and opinions of a man when his writings do not line up with the Bible.

If you do actually like to read, my wife and I would gladly send you a book that you might like -- I'll pay for the book as well as the shipping. Simply PM me with where to send it if you're interested in a free book.

From ursedonah:
First, everyone had access to these "prophecies". Anyone could study them and create a story from them.

What's the largest book you've ever read ? Let's say you've read "War and Peace". Do you think you could create another story from portions of that book that not only made sense (in terms of chronology and theme) but also that didn't contradict the original ?? That's what your hypothesizing (if that's a word). You're saying that all the prophecies of Messiah were simply taken out (keeping the original context as well) in order to create a second Book (the New Testament). The New does not contradict the Old. The New actually exposes those things that were hidden in the Old.

Have you ever heard of Bible Codes ? Please read up on them and see how there's no way the original Hebrew Scriptures were written by man. As a software professional, I can honestly say that there's no way to do what the Bible Codes do and they were penned by hand starting in about 1900 BC !!!

From ursedonah:
Second, you have no way of proving that ANY of them came true. Sure, the bible says it. But there is no other source that proves any of that.

Please see my comment above (search for "Josephus")

From ursedonah:
And you delude yourself to think that just because someone predicted something, that means they were inspired by god.
What about when meteorologists predict a hurricane? Or when someone predicts when the next solar eclipse will be? Or when they predict how long it will be until the planets align a certain way? Are all those predictions inspired by god?
And throughout history, there have been oracles and soothesayers who have predicted things very accurately. Many, if not all, of these were pagans.

First, let's compare apples with apples instead of reaching for straws. A meteorologist does not prophecy. He studies what's going on and makes an educated conclusion. The "prediction" of a solar eclipse fits into this same model. You're not addressing a statement made hundreds to thousands of years prior to the event with no indications identifying the event. They, in no way, compare.

As for the oracles and soothesayers you mention, I do agree that there have been those that have predicted things to happen and they've happened -- hit & miss. In today's world, they call them sports commentators. They're about as "dead on" as they were when they were called oracles and soothesayers. You're also right about most of them being pagans.

From ursedonah:
I dont, however, threaten anyone or really expect them to accept my beliefs.

Of course you don't. You don't have anything to offer except a belief system that says your life will end and that's it.

I don't expect anyone to accept what I have to say. It is my responsibility, though, to let people know of something that they may not know. It is my responsibility to remind people that they will not live forever and that they can't guarantee that they'll have tomorrow.

Tell me, what year will you die ? What month ? What day of the week ? What day ? You can't tell -- no one can. I'm simply bringing something to the forefront of your thoughts because it's extremely important.

From what you've said about your beliefs, you should actually be thanking me. You said that you're belief is to live life to the fullest -- while you can. What I've done is remind you that today could be your last. It's your choice what you do with that knowledge -- go have some fun or get right with God.

From ursedonah:
Obviously, you know absolutely nothing about Satanism.

That's exactly why I told you that I knew nothing about it. That's why I said, "I'm truly interested in your answers since I've never had the opportunity to speak to someone who's been honest enough to claim to follow Satan." and asked you questions about it.

From ursedonah:
look up the nine satanic sins and the eleven satanic rules of the earth for more information on said guidlines

Thanks for the references and for sharing some of what you believe.

[AngelinaTaylor]

I will just say one thing and I'll rest my case because (no offence) you're actually ridiculous in my eyes. Except for those "prophecies" (which for me are just not good enough), you have nothing else to back up Christianity. The bible is not a reliable source, especially since most of it is plagiarized from many ancient texts (Egyptian/Mesopotamian). Christianity is flawed. I do not understand why people take it literally, when, frankly, it does not make sense.

Please realize that the same evidence that Finkelstein reviews is seen by both sides and all that each expert says is prefaced with "I believe...", "I don't believe...", or "...as far as I can judge

So do evangelists. "I believe". Right? That's what faith is.

You even refuse to read "The End of Faith". I bet when you read my response you didn't even know what it was about. Mr. Harris presents his arguments with extensive back-up and over 60 pages of JUST footnotes, with many, many explanations. If that's not good enough for you.. sorry. There are many books you should consider. Especially "A letter to a christian nation" by the same author. But, I'm not expecting you to read that either. My friend refused to read it because it's "too dangerous" to her faith.

Come on. Most people know that taking biblical stories literally and treating them as the "word of god" (even though there are SO many similarities between religions) is deeply illogical.

Oh. And you say that the evidence of these prophecies are found in religious texts. That's not evidence.

Tell me what book you want me to read and I'll get it. I'm not fond of giving out my address to people online.

I'll try not to bother responding here anymore. No point. I don't understand how one can possibly be a fundamentalist.

P.S. Crucifiction in Rome meant that the person is killed for crimes against the state. If Jesus was really killed for religious crimes, they would've killed him with stones, as that was their custom. They did not.

[*I Shot JFK*]

Consider a little boy who is looking at a heater. His father warns him that it's hot. The child say, "OK. I believe it's hot." At that point, he has an intellectual belief that the heater is hot. When his dad leaves the room, he says, "I wonder if it really is hot ?" He then reaches out his hand and grabs the heater bar with his fingers. The second his flesh burns he stops believing the heater is hot. He now knows it's hot ! He has moved out of the realm of "gaith" and into the realm of "experience".

Two minutes later, a heater expert come in and says, "Son, I have a degree in the study of heat, heat exchange, and heaters. That heater is definitely not hot. I can prove it to you." That child would probably say, "Mr. Expert, I don't care how many degrees you have. I know that that heater is hot -- I touched it !! I'm not in the realm of belief, I'm in the realm of experience. The door's that way. Goodbye."

Yes... fine.

And the last time you reached out and fingered God, and he said 'hey, stop stroking my robe! and by the way i wrote the Bible!' was... when?

[sadolakced acid]

ScottD, i don't have time to read through all your posts, so forgive me if you have already addressed this.

First, we must accept the following as fact, which i don't think you'll have a problem with:

• The bible was written by men. Even if it is the word of god, it was physically written by men.
• The bible was translated by men.
• A core concept of Christianity is having faith.
• Men are imperfect.

from these i believe we can draw the following conclusions:

• Christianity is based upon faith, not fact.
• The Bible may have some errors in it, since it was transcribed and translated by men, and men are imperfect and occasionally make errors.

therefore, from these, we can draw that, while i do reserve that it is possible that the bible is wholly correct, the bible could be wrong, and this must be taken into account.

that being said, this isn't the bible thread. It's the evangelism thread.

[sdingfelder]

From Angelina Taylor:
I will just say one thing and I'll rest my case because (no offence) you're actually ridiculous in my eyes.

None taken. I appreciate the opportunity to have gotten to talk with you.

No offence as well, but I'll continue praying for you - that might not mean anything to you, though. I'm praying for the Lord to send someone else to talk with you since the words I've spoken have had no effect on your view of eternal truth and the eventuality of your time to stand in front of Him.

From Angelina Taylor:
Tell me what book you want me to read and I'll get it. I'm not fond of giving out my address to people online.

I understand completely.

http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Code=104
or
http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merc...;Category_Code=

From Angelina Taylor:
P.S. Crucifiction in Rome meant that the person is killed for crimes against the state. If Jesus was really killed for religious crimes, they would've killed him with stones, as that was their custom. They did not.

As a nation that was under occupation, Israel was not allowed to carry out the death penalty the way the Old Covenant prescribed. The Jewish leaders were bound to go to the Roman rule in order to act upon their desire to carry out sentence.

From sadolakced acid:
while i do reserve that it is possible that the bible is wholly correct, the bible could be wrong, and this must be taken into account.

So, how do you determine which parts you believe is from God ? Is it just those portiosn of Scripture that make sense to you -- that you agree with ? What about 2 Timothy 3:16 ? That verse must be wrong, then.

Consider your own belief in Creation vs. the theory of evolution. If you believe that He created all things, how hard would it be for Him to preserve His Word -- especially since the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek are unchanging.

From sadolakced acid:
that being said, this isn't the bible thread. It's the evangelism thread.

Excellent point. Thank you. This isn't the Creation vs. theory of evolution thread either, so please forgive me for raising that.

So, in the vein of evangelism, would you agree that it is out of a concern for others that people share their faith with friends and strangers ? Would you agree that it is out of a concern for the promises they see in the Bible for those who do not come to God in the way He prescribes ? Would you agree that it is out of a need to tell people of the judgment and wrath to come ?

Out of curiosity, do you believe what Jesus said in John 3:3 and John 14:6 ? Do you believe what is said in Revelation 21:8 ?

[AngelinaTaylor]

Intelligent Design vs. Evolution? HAHAHAHA, okay. I'll have fun with that. I've heard of the other book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists", so I'll enjoy that as well. My philosophy prof said it's bullshit, so.. I'm looking forward to it.

Please, don't pray for me. I really, really hate it when people say that to me. Don't waste your time - there's nobody in the clouds.

Take care!

[sadolakced acid]

Well, do you agree that an athiest such as myself may edit and create his own version of the bible, twisting the phrases?

and because we don't know which one is wrong, we must suspect it all, and cannot accept any of the bible as 100% true.

therefore, no, i wouldn't agree that evangalism is a good thing.

the things you never talk about with friends are religion and politics, and there's a reason for it.

we agree that there are multiple religions, and we agree that until we die, we cannot know for sure which one is correct (and don't say you know, i'm talking about humanity as a whole).

Therefore, until we know which one is correct we should abstain from attempting tp introduce religion to people.

You can believe in evangalism all you want, but i fyou try to convert me, i won't talk to you. It's simple as that.

[sdingfelder]

From Angelina Taylor:
Please, don't pray for me. I really, really hate it when people say that to me. Don't waste your time - there's nobody in the clouds.

I guess I should thank you for giving me a clear conscience. I will not pray for you, then. I will grieve, though.

From sadolakced acid:
Well, do you agree that an athiest such as myself may edit and create his own version of the bible, twisting the phrases?

You most definitely can. Why bother, though ? There are plenty of people who call themselves "Christians" who do basically the same thing. Instead of editing and creating their own versions, they simply take verses out of context, ignore other verses, and then twist them completely. Might as well not reinvent the wheel and just use some of their material.

From sadolakced acid:
and because we don't know which one is wrong, we must suspect it all, and cannot accept any of the bible as 100% true.

No, not at all. The Bible is an integrated message. First, if you contort a verse, other verses will show that something's wrong. Second, we still have the original Hebrew and Greek that we can go back to in order to see if the translation/version is correct.

From sadolakced acid:
therefore, no, i wouldn't agree that evangalism is a good thing.

I can completely understand. If you don't believe in a thing called "absolute truth", then why would you ever believe someone coming to you and saying, "This is THE truth."

The truth is that one day, we'll all step off this Earth and into eternity. That's truth. Even Benjamin Franklin recognized that: "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." He was right. He died. Actually, he lived until the age of 84 in 1790. He's been dead for over 210 years -- a LOT longer than he was alive. This is reality. You'll be dead a LOT longer than you'll ever be alive. Please put serious thought into where you're going to spend eternity.

From sadolakced acid:
the things you never talk about with friends are religion and politics, and there's a reason for it.

Actually, those are the things YOU, specifically, never talk about with friends. But, consider this: Your friend has a blindfold and headphones on such that they can neither see nor hear anything. They're walking straight toward a 150 foot cliff. Wouldn't you run as fast as you could to hold them back if not tackle them in order to save them from the fall to come ? In fact, if you don't do that, you're not really a friend at all -- are you ?

If you actually knew something was true, you'd do everything you could to try to inform people of the truth you know. On the other hand though, if your convictions are so weak about something, why bother sharing with people the fact that you really don't have a strong stance on something ?

Remember the old saying: "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

From sadolakced acid:
we agree that there are multiple religions, and we agree that until we die, we cannot know for sure which one is correct (and don't say you know, i'm talking about humanity as a whole).

I agree completely. There are many, many religions. Unfortunately, after you die it's too late.

This is why a Biblical evangelist makes every effort to share the message of how to be sure of your eternal destiny. It is out of a concern for your eternity. You can despise this person for caring enough to share -- that's certainly your choice.

Think about this: If some one came up to you and gave you 1000 invitations to a party, everyone who attends the party gets a million dollars, a car of their choice & a trip around the world. Wouldn't you give that invitation to every friend & family member you have ? If you didn't have 1000 friends or family members, you'd even give the invitation to complete strangers in order to share with them something that was given freely to you !

This is how a Biblical evangelist looks at it. We've been freely given something that we don't deserve and we're given an endless supply of tickets that we get to pass out.

Bottom line is that you've got to ask yourself something: Why would the God that gives you breath and a beating heart each day accept you when you reject Him each one of those days He provides ?

From sadolakced acid:
Therefore, until we know which one is correct we should abstain from attempting tp introduce religion to people.

You can believe in evangalism all you want, but if you try to convert me, i won't talk to you. It's simple as that.

Again, I can understand that. I wasn't raised in the way that I think today. In no way did my Jewish background have room for any concept that the Jewish Messiah had already come. I never shared Judaism with anyone because I figured it was a personal choice. Truly, it was because there was nothing redeeming about Judaism that compelled me to share it with me -- simply put because it offered to answers. Why would I share with anyone the fact that what I believe provides no answers ?

Please put serious thought into the fact that (no matter how old you are) you can do nothing at all to guarantee tomorrow. You have no power at all to control that. You can't even control your next heartbeat. Life is fragile. Eternity is a very long time.

[sadolakced acid]

well, i'll tell you what i believe.

i believe the core message of Christianity has been tainted, that tele-evangelists, Christian conservatives, etc. are as much about jesus as i am.

I believe that there is no cliff. I am not blind, and i am not walking off of it. i believe that you- and all Christians- have bought into the greatest lie in the world.


I believe god is a concept integrated into humanity and exploited by some to control others. I believe that christianity- evanglism in specific- is a sure path to destruction.

sure, you can't see it. but that is because you're blinded by the lie. I believe your misdirected love for jesus will lead to a wasted life.

That is what i believe. But you sure as hell don't see me telling you that you've got it all wrong. And why? it's called respect.

Love thy neighbor is a commandment. Convert him to Christianity is not.

[silly ol' man]

^ Respect? Yeah, you're a model of respect -- dubbing all Christians as the greatest liars in the world is about the most respectful thing I've ever read in my life.

[sadolakced acid]

of course, and if you'd paid a shit of attention you'd understand that.

[sweetangel2128]

A good friend of mine and I recently got into a heated debate about evangelism. We're both Christians, but we have very different ideas about evangelism. When my friend started getting really involved in church a few years ago, he also became a rampant evangelist. He believes that by bringing more people into the church he is not only saving them from eternal damnation, but also doing his duty as a Christian. He has often quoted Charles Spurgeon, saying "Every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter," essentially stating that you can't truly be Christian without evangelizing non believers.

I, however, don't like the idea of evangelism at all. Although I'm a devout Catholic, I dislike the idea of evangelism because I don't believe that anybody, myself included, has the right to force his or her beliefs on someone else. I think that everybody has a right to be whatever the religion they choose. Perhaps it's because I have a different idea about God than other people. I don't think that God sends honestly good people to Hell just because they don't believe in him. There are such things as Christian people who are hypocritical, paying lip service to God at church on Sundays, and still go about causing harm to other people. In my opinion, these people are less deserving of heaven than the good-hearted people whose only "fault" is that they don't believe in God. I think that my duty as a Christian is to be a good person and have a positive impact on the world, which doesn't necessarily mean that I HAVE to be an evangelist.

I'd just like to know what everyone else's opinion is on this, not merely from a Christian standpoint, but from another religion's or atheist's perspective as well. Do you approve of evangelism? Are you an evangelist? Do you think that evangelism is a necessary requirement for all good Christians?

You actually pretty much share the same beliefs as me. However, right now I am wondering if I am a Christian because well I don't follow the Bible but I do read it a lot and love the education of it but I also live my life my way while I'm on earth. I mean I see myself as being a Christian because well, I believe there is a HUGE possiblity that God/Jesus exist. Your situation with your friend actually reminds me of my situation with my friend, only difference now is that were no longer friends. She pushed religion on me, told me I was sinning by having sex out of marriage, not going to church, being with a non-Christian guy ect..she is a big part of the evanglising area and will do anything in her power to try and push religion on people and get them saved because she believes if you don't believe in God, you will surely go to Hell. Me on the other hand believe that the same thing as you, I don't believe you should push religion on people or convert them and that I don't believe God will send good people to Hell just because they decide not to follow him. That's just something I believe. I also believe that you don't need church to love or worship God and you DO NOT need to follow the Bible either...afterall, we are NOT perfect, we are human beings.

Seriously? You're actually serious?

The bible was a work, written thousands of years ago by men and women who thought the earth was flat, and for whom a wheelbarrow for instance would've been a great example of emerging technology. To rely on such documents for "evidence and facts", as well as our worldview, is simply ridiculous.

There's a distinction which you fail to note. Belief is not knowledge. Facts don't go hand in hand with belief. Proof doesn't either. So your argument fails.

The bible is a source of belief, and facts don't emerge from belief. I mean, come on. EVERY religion preaches "truth" of propositions for which no evidence is even attainable.

How do you know which religion is true? You can't. That's a tiny problem with using the bible as a valid, historical source, isn't it?

You don't know which religion is real and whats not, that's where Faith comes into play which is believing in something you think COULD exist but I do agree with you there

Another thing I'd like to add, is that I believe I am a Christian, a Christian is someone who believes that God exists, a Christian doesn't mean you have to abide by all the rules or that if you do this you'll go to Heaven.

[silly ol' man]

of course, and if you'd paid a shit of attention you'd understand that.

The sardonic comment still doesn't reverse the fact that you dropped the whole "I'm being dignified and respecting your opinion" crock at the point you dubbed the entire Christian religion a lie. I'm not condoning or saying I enjoy the misplaced zeal of Christians in their missionary/conversion efforts, because frankly, I don't. But don't outright commit the same foul as the Christians and then backtrack like you're just "making a point."

And don't patronize me with your tweenage, message board angst, tool. No amount of your smug, holier-than-thou garbage gives you such leeway.