Draft or Prison? Options

[strice]

If i'm drafted i'm going to prison. f*ck the war, i'm not going to kill anybody for oil.

"war is old men talking and young men dying."

[EmeraldKnight]

Whats the prison sentence for refusing a draft?

[strice]

2-3 years, normally.

[EmeraldKnight]

Hm.. maybe I'd go and study abroad.. like at Oxford, or Cambridge, hehe

[strice]

vote you bastards!


unfortunately we can't escape to canada anymore. i'll try asia, hopefully i'll get away.

[EmeraldKnight]

vote you bastards! 

that kind of language wont get ppl to vote... alright i just voted, now can you vote on my post in "humor" lol (spam i know, sorrie)

hm.. why not canada anymore?

[strice]

according to my friend whose father is a lawyer say sthat they made a deal that they could draft americans in canada. they obviously learned after vietnam.

[EmeraldKnight]

blech

i'm not caught up on politics at all.. how realistic is this draft? can you fill me in on the details?

[*kryogenix*]

If i'm drafted i'm going to prison. f*ck the war, i'm not going to kill anybody for oil.

"war is old men talking and young men dying."

umm, are you talking about a draft for the Iraq war or draft in general? and we're not killing people for oil.

if i was drafted, i would go.

[stryker76]

IF i was drafted i would go...but after Nam..the draft was outlawed unless it is in the case of another major world war.... but either way....if i was i would fight...not only because i will defend my country...but also because my grandfather was in WW2 and the Korean war....i will also fight if need be... and then there is the fun part of being given guns and explosives and told to go have fun...that is the great part.....

[tkproduce]

No way am I going to war.

[T00000]

if my boyfriend got drafted i'd cry and i would rather have him in prison where his safety is guarunteed than at a war, where he'd be murdering people and risking his life.



evanio dying would be a sad, sad story and that won't happen!


or i'll commit suicide

[WildGriffin]

I'm against war and all that, but if you live in a country....and get drafted..take a wild guess what the right thing to do would be.

Getting drafted doesn't mean you have to kill, I'd prolly become a medic or something.

People died for your "freedom" and such, time to repay the debt.

[immersion31]

i would go to war

[cornflakes]

Since the 80s they have not sent a person to prison. Don't worry about it.

[*Kathleen*]

I would definitely fight for my country...I've lived all these years already in a great country, and I've never been able to pay them back - why not do that with this?

Also, it is quite unrealistic, as everyone has said previously.

[onenonly101]

You sure would NOT see me fighting. I would be in Nigeria if they were drafting me but that would only happen if ALL the men were gone and then the older women before me and then i was born in July so i'd have a long time to wait to be drafted

[stryker76]

I find it interestin that although many people are very patriotic and say that they would do nething for they country but when it comes time to prove that you will many would rather run from it.....

"Speak Softly..Carry a big stick" ~ Teddy Roosevelt

Prove what u say or dont say it...and defend what u say cuz if you arent goin to y should our army defend it for you....

"I may not agree with what you have to say.....but i will die defending your right to say it"

[strice]

heres the article. and if i really had to join the military i'd be a medic. it sa gruesome job, but it has to be done.

i dunno who said this quote but its good.
"People always talk about fighting for their country but never dying for it."

[angel-roh]

I would definitely fight for my country...I've lived all these years already in a great country, and I've never been able to pay them back - why not do that with this?

Also, it is quite unrealistic, as everyone has said previously.

nooo kathleen !! i dont want u to get killed in the war !! well thats good that u got the pride to ur side. n_n hmm... im afraid to go to a war...oh btw they kill ppls to get oil? hahaha nuh uh

[craziplaya21]

neither, ill go 2 canada

[ComradeRed]

If i'm drafted i'm going to prison. f*ck the war, i'm not going to kill anybody for oil.

"war is old men talking and young men dying."

Okay, let's see:

Most Democrats oppose the draft because they see it as war-mongering.
Most Republicans oppose the draft because they see it as leftist social-engineering and big government meddling.

That doesn't leave a whole lot of a base for political support.

There's only two "mainstream" groups of draft supporters:
Communists, who think that if we draft everyone there will somehow be less war, because the rich will have to fight too.
Radical Neo-Cons, who think that people are property of the state.

If I were dictator, I would expel both of the aforementioned group to Canada.

If the draft does pass in Congress, it will be murdered in the Supreme Court on 5th and 13th Amendment Basises. The Draft hasn't been upheld in a court of law since 1917. In 80 years, alot of our attitudes towards things like the draft have changed.

EDIT: So to answer the question:

If I were drafted, I would get a bunch of my ridiculously rich friends and their well-connected families together, hire a team of fat-ass Harvard lawyers, take the case to the Supreme Court, argue that it is Involuntary Servitude (which, by the way, it is), create a huge lobby among young Americans, get Congressman Ron Paul (TX-R) to do a massive filibuster in Congress, have massive public demonstrations partially funded by the US Libertarian Party and their strongly anti-war Aaron Russo, win the case on a 6-3 vote (All judges voting in favor of abolishing except Sandra Day O'Connor, Clarence Thomas, and Anthony Scalia), and then get teh draft abolished forever.

It would be the most patriotic thing to do. We would be ridding America of the last vestige of the Specter of Slavery, and creating a more free society on line with what our Founders were thinking of.

It is NOT patriotic to go to a war and by doing so submit to a slave system. If you are a real patriot, you would want to uphold the law of the land, and that is the Constitution. IT says clearly: "NO INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE". And also: "NO MAN SHALL BE DEPRIVED OF LIFE LIBERTY OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW." When you're a soldier, you take an oath to defend the Constitution. We patriotic civlians should do the same. Fight the Draft!

[EmeraldKnight]

Thank you Minda

[ComradeRed]

I read an article in the Congress Digest on the Draft... it was their focus this time.

Four Congressmen and other people wrote on both sides... It was really sad seeing the draft supported by democrats, and opposed by Republicans (most famously Ron Paul, probably the biggest Reaganite in Congress).

That's one more reason the Democratic Party's message has moved away from liberty, and towards communism.

[EmeraldKnight]

I read an article in the Congress Digest on the Draft... it was their focus this time.

Four Congressmen and other people wrote on both sides... It was really sad seeing the draft supported by democrats, and opposed by Republicans (most famously Ron Paul, probably the biggest Reaganite in Congress).

That's one more reason the Democratic Party's message has moved away from liberty, and towards communism. 

Dang.. that makes the election a lot more difficult... on one hand, you have Bush.. and on the other hand, you have the slightly communistic democrats..

[ComradeRed]

Dang.. that makes the election a lot more difficult... on one hand, you have Bush.. and on the other hand, you have the slightly communistic democrats..

I support Kerry in 2004, JUST BECAUSE The Republicans will control Congress. That way, we are preventing one-party rule. The Republican Congress and the Democratic White House will hog-tie each other and we will be able to preserve our civil liberties through this mess we've gotten ourselves in to.

Though I disagree with their affirmative action decisions, the Supreme Court has otherwise proven to be fairly legitimate. I have the fullest faith that the draft, if passed in Congress (which is very unliekly to begin with), will be shot down by public opposition and the Supreme Court.

Amendment XIII: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist in the United States, or any territory subject to their jursidiction, except as a punishment for a crimer whereof the guilty party shall have been duly convicted."

The draft is servitude. YOu have to follow all of your orders. For a period of time, you are a servant of the government.

The draft is involuntary. If it were voluntary, it wouldn't be a draft.

Don't know what bizarre definition you're using, but in my book involuntary + servitude = involuntary servitude. And it wasn't a crime to be an 18-year-old male last time I checked either.

[EmeraldKnight]

Wow.. you're like a political encyclopedia well thank you for clearing that up

[ComradeRed]

Wow.. you're like a political encyclopedia well thank you for clearing that up

Danke.

[WildGriffin]

Danke.

What is it with you and german?

[EmeraldKnight]

German's funny Mark Twain convinced me

[machinoman]

i would go to the draft. i wouldnt like it though. also, communism ain't so bad, just look at cuba. errr... nevermind.

[ryfitaDF]

i'm not dying for the government. this war is bull. i'll move to ireland.

down with bush!

[flyin_HAWAiiAN]

do girls get drafted too?
if so i would go to war.
if not, well thats sexist but i guess its better for us.

[strice]

yes, the girls can get drafted too.

[machinoman]

no

[strice]

to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."

yes.

[stryker76]

"War is Old Men Lyin and Young Men Dyin"

[ComradeRed]

In draft news, recently has been the first time a REPUBLICAN Congressman has supported the draft. You can read the article on teh Aaron Russo campaign website: http://www.russoforpresident.com/

Bush and Kerry BOTH favor the draft, though support for the draft in Congress is more limited. And if it comes to it, I bet it will be struck down in the Supreme Court

Worst-case scenario will be public protest leading to a serious third-party/conservative movement in 2006's Congress elections, that will temporarily threaten both major parties and force the end of hte draft. The draft was never popular in America. I doubt it will be in this day and age.

[*Kathleen*]

That's too bad I'm not eighteen yet.

[PinoyOtaku]

Draft, would straighten things up while knowing that you can die during the process. I'm sure it would do some good on the values of life...

[ComradeRed]

Draft, would straighten things up while knowing that you can die during the process. I'm sure it would do some good on the values of life...

Explain how spending two years of your life as a government slave and possibly getting killed would "do some good on the values of life" again?

Values of life or no life, it's illegal.

NEITHER SLAVERY NOR INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE SHALL EXIST WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OR ANY PLACE SUBJECT TO THEIR JURISDICTION, EXCEPT AS A PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME WHEREOF THE GUILTY PARTY SHALL HAVE BEEN DULY CONVICTED.
-- The United States Constitution, Amendment Thirteen. It's not THAT hard to read.

Conscript is unquestionably bad for the war effort, because of morale and logistic problems. Even the Department of Defense agrees.

Almost every effort at conscription by a government since 1975 had led to the said government being overthrown. The only two exceptions are Israel and Greece. Greece was saved from being overthrown only by massive American intervention (attempted Communist uprising damn nearly succeeded in the late 70s) and Israel is in a state of permanent warfare.

Some famous examples of conscription:

France: Invoking a feudal law, the King of France tries to draft citizens of Calais in the 1300s. The citizens appeal to the King of England, who invades France. War ravages France for the next 114 years.

United States: Conscription declares in 1863 to fight the civil war. Hundreds die in the riots that ensue. Lincoln is forced to cut conscription quotas by 50%.

Russia: Conscritpion begins in 1914. Three years later, conscripts organize several simultaenous uprisings. The conscript-manned Russian navy defects, the government is overthrown, and the Czar Nicholas II is executed by his own people.

China: Mao declares conscription "in case of emergency" (possible American invasion of China after winning Vietnam): 1969. Government overthrown in a bloody two-year coup: 1977-78.

[*Kathleen*]

Eh you're quite resistant, aren't you, Minda?

[EmeraldKnight]

Eh you're quite resistant, aren't you, Minda? 

But see.. the diff betwen him and the theologians is that his stuff actually has real basis and is credible, and instead of being stubbornly annoying with resistence, he freaks you out and overloads you with into

[ComradeRed]

But see.. the diff betwen him and the theologians is that his stuff actually has real basis and is credible, and instead of being stubbornly annoying with resistence, he freaks you out and overloads you with into

Shock and awe, haha.

Speaking of which:

CHINA: Manchu government (never popular to begin with) declares conscription in the late 1840s to fight off foreign countries. The rich manipulate the system into getting the more comfortable jobs in the military. Infuriated, landless peasants rise up in the bloody Taiping (ironically, Taiping means 'serenity') Rebellion. TEN MILLION -- that's a one with seven zeroes behind it -- people die in the bloodiest civil war in history. The war finally ends when foreign countries send troops into China to restore the government. The government becomes a puppet to foreign countries, and is finally overthrown in 1906.

[Mr. Psychotic]

i would go fight for this country even though some of the things we did were wrong but yeah i would go to war

[ComradeRed]

I would bury you.

[Mr. Psychotic]

I would bury you.

what do u mean by that...?? and were u talking to me??

[ComradeRed]

Haha, it's a reference to:

"We will bury you."
--Nikita Khrushchev

My favorite communist quote ever.

[Yemmerz]

I'd go into draft, to protect the ones I love in my country...but I wouldnt kill. I'll be like a nurse or anything except a soldier. I wouldnt be able to live with the thought that i killed someone. =\

[ComradeRed]

If you get drafted, you don't have teh choice of what job you get. All the volunteers are allowed to fill up the jobs they want first.

[Viggen]

Forgot one more option: Relocate to Canada.

[Yemmerz]

you cant do that anymore. it's illegal.

[ComradeRed]

It was always illegal...

But if you're in another country, it's kind of hard to catch you.

[sadolakced acid]

if draft everyone, i will go. it they leave out the girls, i will not.

and you say sexism is gone. when i turn 18, i have to go to the post office for my draft number. girls don't.

and don't ive me that about girls not being able to fight.
not all in the army is fighting.

[juliar]

I'm a woman. I wouldnt be drafted.
But if I were male, I'd choose prison. Call me a coward, I'm not going to die for my country, I'm going to ride it out in jail.

[CrimsonArchangel]

Being a girl, I really don't think I have a say here, and also given the fact that I most likely will go to the military after college so....
But guys... why prison? How about trying to be a little civil and talk it out, find other ways you can help the war effort or what not. If none of that works then go for the jail idea .

[DavidxN]

lol you'd actually choose prison over the draft? thats messed up, you live on US soil and u cant even protect it? i'd choose the draft, one of my plans is to become a navy seal but it sucks how they don't let girls become navy seals

[strice]

i refuse the draft because i want nothing to do with an unjust war for oil.

[CrimsonArchangel]

it sucks how they don't let girls become navy seals

HaHa. Yeah, I would like that. We would get to blow things up, haha. J/K. It would be interesting.
(GI Jane anyone?)

[Yemmerz]

and you say sexism is gone. when i turn 18, i have to go to the post office for my draft number. girls don't.

Of course sexism is still here. I think they should send convicts into drafts. Don't take innocent people, the ones who follow the law [most of the time..], pay our taxes. It should be the criminals who have disobeyed the law. They get to chill at jail while good men are dying at war...

[*kryogenix*]

Of course sexism is still here. I think they should send convicts into drafts. Don't take innocent people, the ones who follow the law [most of the time..], pay our taxes. It should be the criminals who have disobeyed the law. They get to chill at jail while good men are dying at war...

then again, prisoners aren't obeying laws, so they wouldn't be the most reliable soldiers.

[hybrid]

then again, prisoners aren't obeying laws, so they wouldn't be the most reliable soldiers.

That point is true.

Prison seems to be a better choice for me. I'm not much of a gun person or anything.. but hey at least in Prison you have a toilet.

[sadolakced acid]

why prision?

i like in the US. there is very little likelyhood that saddam would have attacked us. i'm more worried about north korea. but, Mr. Bush is withdrawing troops from the border guard there.

talk about priorities.

i will not fight, unless the enemy is on US soil. i will not fight, unless the enemy is attacking americans in america. i will not fight for faulty reasons, faked clames of WMDs, or just because.

i will fight if it is to save american lives.

there is no reason americans should be dieing everyday in iraq. 6 or 7 a day. every day. and why were we there? our el presidente can't tell us. i will not fight for that.

[JlIaTMK]

yea id definetly go to prison.... i wouldnt be able to take ppls lives into my hands.... and if i have to take my own life for it then i would.... and if i get drafted to ever fight against my own home country then i would go insane and kill all the ppl that tried to draft me

and i feel sorry for any american person thats drafted that has family in that country that they're fighting against.... that would be just brutal

[bigpoppaproppy]

drafted for iraq? id tell the president where he could stick his draft notice and id move to Scotland

a REAL cause: id go, prolly as a medic sinec im already a certified EMT

[ComradeRed]

I'd go, organize a revolt, and overthrow the government, and kill Bush and his family. Just like the Russians did to Czar Nicholas II.

Every major wartime incident of drafting in a Western Nation during the 20th century, the only exceptions being Britain and America in the world wars, has led to either (a) Losing the war miserably, or (b) the Government being overthrown.

[EmeraldKnight]

I'd go, organize a revolt, and overthrow the government, and kill Bush and his family. Just like the Russians did to Czar Nicholas II.

You go do that....

Every major wartime incident of drafting in a Western Nation during the 20th century, the only exceptions being Britain and America in the world wars, has led to either (a) Losing the war miserably, or (b) the Government being overthrown.

Yes, except the US.. it didnt happen during the last draft, you believe it'll happen if another occurs?

[ComradeRed]

1) During Vietnam, most soldiers were volunteers. Even so, the draft severly weakened the war effort. It turned college students as well as many Republicans, normally pro-war, into strongly anti-war. The draft weakened the Democratic Party (Johnson started the draft) politically so much that Nixon was able to win in a landslide in 1972, winning every state but Massachusetts. Nixon's first action was to end the draft.

Our government wasn't overthrown, but the ruling party at the time (The Democrats) sure were.

If Bush were stupid enough to reinstate the draft between now and November, Kerry would win pretty much every state in the country, just like Nixon did in 1972.

Moreover, it is a military fact that the draft will harm a modern army, not help it. This is why Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense STRONGLY oppose the draft. A draft would cause serious morale and logistical problems, and would create simply a mass of unmotivated soldiers. A drafted army would stand no chance against even a weak volunteer force in this day and age. America lost the Vietnam War in large part due to the fact that drafted soldiers did not want to be there. There were incidences of drafted soldiers shooting their own officers, faking injuries, etc. The massive discipline and morale problems, coupled with the sheer logistical difficulty of maintaining a large army in foreign territory with gurellias, meant that the Vietnam War was totally unwinnable.

Modern war means small battles using high-tech forces. It is the wrong strategy altogether to rush in a bunch of conscripts. We would quickly lose military supremacy, and with it, political infleunce.

Furthermore, remember that a draft will only cause more violence: EVERY time the United States has drafted people during a war, there have been riots and hundreds of civilians have died.

[EmeraldKnight]

If Bush were stupid enough to reinstate the draft between now and November, Kerry would win pretty much every state in the country, just like Nixon did in 1972.

But what if he does so after the election if he is (and I realli hope not..) reelected?

Moreover, it is a military fact that the draft will harm a modern army, not help it. This is why Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense STRONGLY oppose the draft. A draft would cause serious morale and logistical problems, and would create simply a mass of unmotivated soldiers. A drafted army would stand no chance against even a weak volunteer force in this day and age. America lost the Vietnam War in large part due to the fact that drafted soldiers did not want to be there. There were incidences of drafted soldiers shooting their own officers, faking injuries, etc. The massive discipline and morale problems, coupled with the sheer logistical difficulty of maintaining a large army in foreign territory with gurellias, meant that the Vietnam War was totally unwinnable.

Modern war means small battles using high-tech forces. It is the wrong strategy altogether to rush in a bunch of conscripts. We would quickly lose military supremacy, and with it, political infleunce.

I totally agree with you on the modern warfare part, hi tech forces would require a lot of training.. training that drafted personnel would either be reluctant to go through, or would have trouble learning

Furthermore, remember that a draft will only cause more violence: EVERY time the United States has drafted people during a war, there have been riots and hundreds of civilians have died.

Exactly.. hm.. so if there were a draft, I would expect you to be at the head of the riot?

[ComradeRed]

But what if he does so after the election if he is (and I realli hope not..) reelected?


I totally agree with you on the modern warfare part, hi tech forces would require a lot of training.. training that drafted personnel would either be reluctant to go through, or would have trouble learning


Exactly.. hm.. so if there were a draft, I would expect you to be at the head of the riot?

a) Bush isn't going to win anyway, for reasons that I will be glad to explain later but not now. Moreover, Kerry supports the draft, even more than Bush does.

b) I would be at the head of the Resistance. Rioting will only get you so far.

[EmeraldKnight]

a) Bush isn't going to win anyway, for reasons that I will be glad to explain later but not now. Moreover, Kerry supports the draft, even more than Bush does.

He does? ... *sigh* no comment..

b) I would be at the head of the Resistance. Rioting will only get you so far.

Haha the Resistance? and what might that be?

[ComradeRed]

Kerry supports "Mandatory National Service" -- basically a draft, only not called a draft.

The Resistance would be a shadowy underground group dedicated to overthrowing the current Communist Occupation Government (COG) and restoring the principles of 1776.

[EmeraldKnight]

Bleh.. neither political candidate seems favorable.. who are you supporting Minda?

The Resistance would be a shadowy underground group dedicated to overthrowing the current Communist Occupation Government (COG) and restoring the principles of 1776.

COG??? where does that come in?

[ComradeRed]

I support John Kerry, BECAUSE the Republicans will control Congress an the Supreme Court. Kerry's hands will be tied. Whereas Bush's hands will not be tied. I perfer a madman with little power to a madman with absolute power.

Besides, even if Bush were better, I would still vote against Bush, because he broke ALL OF HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES THAT HE MADE IN 2000. Let's see. I supported Bush in 2000 because he promised these things:

- A more restrained and humble foreign policy
- A balanced budget
- Less government spending
- A strong line against affirmative action
- Repealing Clinton-era civil rights violations, especially by scaling down the ATF

Instead, Bush has:

- Invaded Iraq
- Created the biggest deficit ever
- Raised social spending more than any other president in US History, including FDR
- Done nothing to eliminate affirmative action, and in fact supported it to get the Hispanic vote
- Passed the PATRIOT ACT

Bush has proven himself to be an untrustworthy sleaze. I supported him in 2000, I am following an "Anyone But Bush" policy in 2004.

But if I could choose among third parties, I would vote Michael Badnarik.

The COG comes in after Roosevelt passed Proclamation 2040 on March 9, 1933, exactly two weeks before Hitler passed his version of Proclamation 2040. This act declared the Constitution suspended and conferred dictatorial powers to the President. This marks the end of the Federal Republic of the United States of America, Federalism, Rule of Law, etc., and the beginning of the Communist Occupation Government.

[EmeraldKnight]

Wow.. a lot of info there...

The COG comes in after Roosevelt passed Proclamation 2040 on March 9, 1933, exactly two weeks before Hitler passed his version of Proclamation 2040. This act declared the Constitution suspended and conferred dictatorial powers to the President. This marks the end of the Federal Republic of the United States of America, Federalism, Rule of Law, etc., and the beginning of the Communist Occupation Government.

What the heck? the COG actually exists?

[ComradeRed]

Yes.

The establishment of the U.S. Constitution in 1789 and its Bill of Rights in 1791 was a fundamental innovation in jurisprudence. It introduced the first constitutional republic, with a written constitution that superseded the Common Law that preceded it, while incorporating that part of the Common Law not in conflict with it, and provided that all subsequent statutory law and official acts must be based on its provisions and not in conflict with it. Any statute or official act not so based, or in such conflict with it, was to be considered unconstitutional, and null and void from inception.

Unfortunately, despite the nominal commitment to compliance with the Constitution, legislators and officials have failed to comply with it in many instances. Most of these instances were justified as necessary to deal with perceived crises, especially war and depression. Some of these instances include the Dick Act of 1903 and the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. But perhaps the most important was the Emergency Banking Act of March 9, 1933, and particularly its amendment to the Trading with the Enemy Act of October 6, 1917, and its ratification of such executive orders as the Proclamation 2040 by President Roosevelt issued on March 6, 1933, sometimes called the Emergency and War Powers order. This act, codified as 12 USC 95(b), effectively declared the Constitution suspended and conferred dictatorial powers on the President, a situation which continues to this day.

Following this there was a long train of unconstitutional legislation and executive orders, made possible by intimidation of the federal courts. Although some reference to provisions of the Constitution was made to justify them, especially an expanded interpretation of "interstate commerce", it is argued that what was really done was suspension of the Constitution as the "Supreme Law of the Land" and the extension of the "Law of the Sea" over the land, making all federal courts admiralty courts, under the executive authority of the President. The "Law of the Sea" is a branch of Common Law under which the President and admiralty courts exercise essentially dictatorial powers, akin to martial law.

Under this assumed authority, the U.S. Congress, the President, and the federal courts have extended their powers and jurisdiction far beyond the limits imposed on them under the Constitution, in violation of the 10th Amendment.

Senate Report 93-549, written in 1973, said "Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency." It goes on to say:

"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years, freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of National emergency. In the United States, actions taken by government in times of great crisis have ... in important ways shaped the present phenomenon of a permanent state of National emergency."...

"These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule this country without reference to normal constitutional process.

"Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

The problem, of course, is that the Constitution does not provide for its own suspension, under some Rule of Necessity, only for temporary suspension of the right of habeas corpus, nor does Congress have such emergency and war powers or the power to delegate them to the President. Such a doctrine of "emergency rule" is a legalistic façade, perhaps providing a defense against summary judgement by a lawful court, but not providing true legal authority. The Constitution is not just the Supreme Law of the Land, but of all operations of the institutions it establishes, as agents of the People, including those at sea and those involving the laws of nations, forbidding them to exercise any powers not specifically delegated to them, in any field of action.

A difficulty for this regime is that the vast majority of people in and out of government are unaware of such emergency rule. As far as they are concerned, the Constitution is still in full force and effect. Many of them continue to take an oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic." Some of them are aware of their role as militiamen, as defenders of the State and its Constitution, with a duty to not only obey the Constitution and constitutional laws, but to do what they can to enforce them as well, singly or in concert with one another.

This is the first third of the article: about the COG: http://www.constitution.org/mil/lawnanti.htm

[EmeraldKnight]

Wow... I'll get around to reading that.. someday..

Haha I didnt think you were actually serious about that.. that's somewhat.. alarming..

[ComradeRed]

Senate Report 93-549, written in 1973, said "Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency." It goes on to say:

"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years, freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the constitution have, in varying degrees, bee]n abridged by laws brought into force by states of National emergency. In the United States, actions taken by government in times of great crisis have ... in important ways shaped the present phenomenon of a permanent state of National emergency."...

"These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule this country without reference to normal constitutional process.

"Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

That's pretty damn scary, actually. And this was 30 years ago. The situation is MUCH worse today. You have much more to fear from this than from terrorists, communists, Arabs, drugs, black people, skinheads, immigrants, space aliens, etc.

[EmeraldKnight]

"Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

Wow.... its not still effect now is it?

[ComradeRed]

Of course it is. And since the War on Drugs and the Patriot Act, it is in even greater effect today than ever before.

Under the 1980 Controlled Substances Act, the President can seize your property without consent of Congress as long as he thinks you are involved in drugs. There is no way to get your property back other than suing the President, which is impossible if you're poor and you can't afford a lawyer since you just had all your money seized.

The War Powers Act allows the President to deploy troops without consent of Congress for 60 days (I think it was raised to 90). Furthermore, he can declare martial law during that period as well, effectively making him absolute dictator for two months.

[EmeraldKnight]

Of course it is. And since the War on Drugs and the Patriot Act, it is in even greater effect today than ever before.

Under the 1980 Controlled Substances Act, the President can seize your property without consent of Congress as long as he thinks you are involved in drugs. There is no way to get your property back other than suing the President, which is impossible if you're poor and you can't afford a lawyer since you just had all your money seized.

The War Powers Act allows the President to deploy troops without consent of Congress for 60 days (I think it was raised to 90). Furthermore, he can declare martial law during that period as well, effectively making him absolute dictator for two months.

Dude... that is just stupid... so he can deploy troops and declare martial law at any given time for 60 (90) days?

[ComradeRed]

Yes... that's why he could invade Iraq first, and then get Congressional sanction later. It's blatantly unconstitutional and should be repealed.

[EmeraldKnight]

Yes... that's why he could invade Iraq first, and then get Congressional sanction later. It's blatantly unconstitutional and should be repealed.

This country's government is realli lame now... what happened to the original ideals envisioned by the founding fathers? (I love how far this topic's diverged..)

[ComradeRed]

They don't exist any more. We can see some of Alexander Hamilton's ideas in place today, but Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine have long since died (ideas: www.cato.org, www.lp.org), and same with Benjamin Franklin and George Washington (ideas: www.constitution.org).

"Every revolution devours its own children."
--Ernst Rohm

[EmeraldKnight]

They don't exist any more. We can see some of Alexander Hamilton's ideas in place today, but Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine have long since died (ideas: www.cato.org, www.lp.org), and same with Benjamin Franklin and George Washington (ideas: www.constitution.org).

"Every revolution devours its own children."
--Ernst Rohm

How the heck do you know these sites?

Kinda ironic that its just been Independence day.. yet we've strayed so far from the original intents and ideology...

EDIT://
Wait.. if the draft is illegal as you've said, shouldnt the right thing to do be going to prison, instead of following an illegal act? or is my logic completely wrong

[ComradeRed]

The right thing to do, in my opinion, would be to commit civil disobedience and go to prison.

[EmeraldKnight]

The right thing to do, in my opinion, would be to commit civil disobedience and go to prison. 

Isnt that what i said? but in less technically precise terms?

[aud_chua]

i'd rather go to prison.. at least they feed you and you don't hafta kill anyone... that's my 2 cents on it... (or penny since it's such a short response... ^^; )

[ComradeRed]

Uh... they feed you in the army too... And yes, you do have to kill people in prison.

[Dar|<]

I would kill for free....There is never any real cause for death.

[sadolakced acid]

killing innocents?

that's what you'd be doing if you obeyed the draft then.

[EmeraldKnight]

killing innocents?

that's what you'd be doing if you obeyed the draft then.

You do that as a soldier.. what's your point?

I would kill for free....There is never any real cause for death.

WTF???

Uh... they feed you in the army too... And yes, you do have to kill people in prison.

When do you have to kill people in prison? How often?

[ComradeRed]

When do you have to kill people in prison? How often?

Killing that 300-lb serial killer named Bubba right next to you is in just as much self-defense as shooting an Iraqi partisan...

[sadolakced acid]

unless that serial killer looked at you wrong. then it's much more justified.