Cloning, are you for it, or not? Options

[*NatiMarie*]

Hopefully, this thread hasn't been made yet, sorry if it has...

Anywhoo:

Are you for or against cloning? Why or why not?

[dani41790]

well i kinda dont noe cuz im kinda for it for like tha cloning of organs to save pplz lives but yet im against it cuz umm its kinda against mai religion so yea i dunno

[toyie boxx]

cloning is bad.. we'd all be the same ;[

[whomps]

I'm against cloning.
If there was cloning.. then what would be the point for the word "unique" ?



Edit//

[tkproduce]

I don't know about you guys but there's one misconception about cloning that some people make - if you clone a person, then you don't immediately get a clone of yourself at the current moment. You'll get a baby - more appropriately an embryo - that has the same DNA as you. By the time he/she/it is your age, you'll be twice that, unless of course it's a Hollywood movie.

Personally, although it may have a lot of biological and medical benefits, I feel I'm against it because of the moral issues surrounding it. It's similar to the debate over abortion... hey, that can be a new topic

[Jiggapin0]

I'm against it. Cloning is playing God which isn't cool.

[Winter]

I think I'm against it even though like tkproduce said, medically it benefits. But like Jiggapin0 said, playing God is not cool. If something goes wrong, these human clones might grow by the numbers and turn against the normal human beings. Lolx sorry, too much science fiction movies...

[rivendell]

Cloning a whole person is virtually impossible. Our eggs aren't able to be fooled and accept the body cell that is needed to make the cloning work. Instead of an egg and a sperm, what they do is remove the nucleus from the egg and implant a regular body cell into it. Sheep and Cow embryos have been able to be fooled like this, and this is why you had Dolly the Sheep.

I think cloning an entire human is wrong. There are too many variables involved with the way you are brought up and the world around you - you can never give birth to the same person twice.

BUT I have no problem with people using their own cells to clone parts of them ... if a person is burned on over 75% of their body, I think they should be able to take their own skin cells and clone grafts of their own skin. If someone's kidneys are failing, I think they should be able with their own kidney cells clone new healthy ones. I don't find anything at all wrong with something like that. It's just when you try it with the entire human being does it get kinda tricky...

[tkproduce]

well it may be tricky now, but I can bet you they'll manage it in a few years time. So I think scientific limitations isn't really an issue here - it's the moral issues that stop it from happening

[*Kathleen*]

Yes, I'm sure we'll be able to find new ways for medical benefits in the future. I'm against this, even though I am anti-abortion. There's a lot of chances this won't work, as Jess (Rivendell) said. Look at Dolly - she died, and scientists still don't know why she did. Although, as Jess did say, you can't create the same person unless they're brought up the same exact way (which I highly doubt will occur). Still, think about how those people would feel when they grow up - people won't think of them as a human, and more of a machine or lab animal. I don't think that's fair to them. Why make them suffer like that?

[Spirited Away]

I'm against it, for the same reasons that others have said on previous posts.

But curious minds will experiment with it anyway. How are we to stop it from happening?

[LQ_Darksoul]

If and when they are able to create successful clones of human, I think it will be an atrocity to humanity. The worse part comes down to who owns the cloned child and how he/she would be raised. A multimillion company is not going to spend millions to create a clone of anyone and give it to a family to be raised willingly. But then the family wouldn't allow years upon years of tests being done to there child potentially causing mental or physical damage. When the child turns 18, would the child be able to live out in the free-world without the nuisance of being controlled by the multi-million company. It's a lot to think about, and sure, cloning organs would help humanity in many ways, but cloning human beings could be a very bad thing.

[tkproduce]

Still, think about how those people would feel when they grow up - people won't think of them as a human, and more of a machine or lab animal. I don't think that's fair to them. Why make them suffer like that?

umm... I think the basic idea behind cloning is that once the clone cells are made, they have to be placed in a female womb to develop, so they aren't that different from "normal" humans. Identical twins are a product of cloning occuring naturally.

[*Kathleen*]

Yes, but they'll know they're a clone anyways, and so will the people around them...

[waccoon]

umm... I think the basic idea behind cloning is that once the clone cells are made, they have to be placed in a female womb to develop, so they aren't that different from "normal" humans. Identical twins are a product of cloning occuring naturally.

zygotes, blastulas? twins are just cell reproduction.

[lilb]

Ok, honestly I have always wanted a twin...yeah...sum ppl want a little brother, an older sister..wtvr...I want a twin....but I strongly disagree with clones..they have no souls..which mean they have no consiounce....which means they could kill without feeling pain or caring, not to mention, obvioulsy, I am a christian and its unbiblical.

[tkproduce]

Ok, honestly I have always wanted a twin...yeah...sum ppl want a little brother, an older sister..wtvr...I want a twin....but I strongly disagree with clones..they have no souls..which mean they have no consiounce....which means they could kill without feeling pain or caring, not to mention, obvioulsy, I am a christian and its unbiblical.

That's wrong. A clone is just another human being that happens to have the same DNA as another person. Depending on the environment he or she is brought up in, he or she may or may not be anything like the person they were "cloned" from. Identical twins have identical DNA. A clone would just be like a twin who developed in someone else's womb (and some couples have had their babies develop in other people's wombs). Of course they're going to have a soul and conscience - I don't know what you're on about. Anyway, between us humans, less than 99% of our DNA differ from other humans. We're all slight mutations of each other. If we keep on calling clones "clones", then the appropriate name for us would be "mutants".

[*CJ1*]

I'm against cloning. There are already many people in the world and its being overpopulated. Can't we be happy with the people already here? but if it's for rare animals, sure. People are killing animals and making more humans. There's just too much in the world these days.

[tofumonzter]

I'm against cloning. There will be a big problem if we start cloning, robbery, education, love and more. If we start cloning this world will be a big mess.

[onenonly101]

I'm against clonign flat out. I would never believe them to be a real human being no matter how "normal" they are

[AmesBond]

I'm not against cloning! (*don't kill me!*)

When you clone, don't you just clone the genetic material? So, won't that mean that even if the genetic make up is the same, the personality and behavior will be different depending on the surroundings in the environment. So even if it has the same genetic make up, the being is still different.

As for who "owns" what, I don't think that's a wrong use of term. The person whose genes they used to create the clone will act as the parent specie, right? So, won't he or she treat the clone as if that were his/her child? There will be no "owning" of anyone I suppose, they are still human beings afterall.

And the way the clone is treated as he/she grows older, that's just society's fault for discriminating.

[*AngelicEyz00*]

Ok, honestly I have always wanted a twin...yeah...sum ppl want a little brother, an older sister..wtvr...I want a twin....but I strongly disagree with clones..they have no souls..which mean they have no consiounce....which means they could kill without feeling pain or caring, not to mention, obvioulsy, I am a christian and its unbiblical.

Wha in the world did you just say???

ok, clones have no souls?? no conscience? ok... a clone, is a clone... A clone would be made up of cells and organs and all that, just like a human... A human clone would be human.

Personally, I'm against cloning a human, beacause well, first of all, there's already a lot of people on this earth, secondly... it's just kinda weird, no? And this clone will physically be born and grow up as almost a replica of the original, but psychologically, it'll be a totally different person...

What I am for is cloning cells, like maybe brain cells for someone who's suffered brain damage or something? I dunno, but yeah...

[*Kathleen*]

I'm not against cloning! (*don't kill me!*)

When you clone, don't you just clone the genetic material? So, won't that mean that even if the genetic make up is the same, the personality and behavior will be different depending on the surroundings in the environment. So even if it has the same genetic make up, the being is still different.

As for who "owns" what, I don't think that's a wrong use of term. The person whose genes they used to create the clone will act as the parent specie, right? So, won't he or she treat the clone as if that were his/her child? There will be no "owning" of anyone I suppose, they are still human beings afterall.

And the way the clone is treated as he/she grows older, that's just society's fault for discriminating.

Yes, I completely agree with you, but they will be treated differently. It's bad enough when people are bullied...think about how "different" this being is going to be.

Also, tk, how can it be natural cloning? Identical twins aren't even on purpose...they occur because the cell has been split...that doesn't mean it intentionally wanted another copy of the organism...

Back to you, Michelle, if they're going to be cloned, they'd probably be in and out of a labratory their whole lives...how aggravating would that be? Just think about how they would feel.

Granted, as Elba said, sometimes I think cloning is good because we'd be able to discover new things...still, we'd be treating that being like a lab animal...I can't see that as being moral. Heh. Furthermore, as I think I stated before, there will be other ways to test things.

[Mireh]

There are many pros and cons against cloning. However, I am deeply against cloning.

Why? Because I believe it is imoral. How would it feel living knowing that you were some type of lab expierement? Just a project? How would you feel being pointed at and examined?

Are we as human beings trying to defy god?

[iloveyou07]

There are many pros and cons against cloning. However, I am deeply against cloning.

Why? Because I believe it is imoral. How would it feel living knowing that you were some type of lab expierement? Just a project? How would you feel being pointed at and examined?

Are we as human beings trying to defy god?

exactly!!!

ok im totally against it!!! they have no souls and so where would they go when they died??? not to heaven, not to hell, THEY ARENT REALL HUMAN BEINGS!! THEY DONT HAVE A SOUL OR A SPIRT!!! Thats how God created us, and who are we to say that we can "create" people!

[*AngelicEyz00*]

exactly!!!

ok im totally against it!!! they have no souls and so where would they go when they died??? not to heaven, not to hell, THEY ARENT REALL HUMAN BEINGS!! THEY DONT HAVE A SOUL OR A SPIRT!!! Thats how God created us, and who are we to say that we can "create" people!

wtf is up with you people saying they have no souls or spirits??

[*Kathleen*]

Yeah...they'll still have a soul... Besides, we can't base everything off of what God thinks is right or not, you know. I'm against this simply because I'm considering how that person would feel when they grow up.

[tkproduce]

They do have souls, damn it! I'm totally happy with some people's views on why they are against cloning, but other people's views are just so damn ignorant.

Plants have been cloned for hundreds of years. Farmers and gardeners have perfected different methods of doing so. Are the cloned plants any different from the original plant? Of course not, they're clones! If there was a plant producing nice big beautiful flowers, then what stops humans from cloning it so everyone can have big beautiful flowers? "Humans shouldn't play God"?, well if you ask me, we've been playing God for a hell of a long time.

Also, tk, how can it be natural cloning?  Identical twins aren't even on purpose...they occur because the cell has been split...that doesn't mean it intentionally wanted another copy of the organism...

Yea, I meant the formation of twins is a totally natural and random process, while cloning is just forcing the split.

[*Kathleen*]

Oh okay...gotcha...

Anywho - how is it not a soul? They'll still be human...I'm just not understanding where people are getting their ideas of them not having a soul.

So, what ideas do you agree on against cloning, tk?

[tkproduce]

Oh okay...gotcha...

Anywho - how is it not a soul? They'll still be human...I'm just not understanding where people are getting their ideas of them not having a soul.

So, what ideas do you agree on against cloning, tk?

I'm against cloning - believe me, that's the truth. Similarly I'm against gay couples raising a kid. It will just be unfair on the clone/kid.

However, people involved in this topic and the "abortion" topic seem to slightly contradict themselves. They argue that any life has potential and therefore should be kept alive no matter what in the abortion topic but argue that the clone with a perfectly legitimate life shouldn't be given a life because it'll be hell for them under this topic.

I'll rather be a clone living in a loving family than an orphan without any family.

[LiNHy POO]

never really thought of it... in a fun way... it will be pretty cool... but i dont think the world needs more britney spears walking around...

but my point is that im agasint it! it be boring with everyone exctely alike...

[Spirited Away]

However, people involved in this topic and the "abortion" topic seem to slightly contradict themselves. They argue that any life has potential and therefore should be kept alive no matter what in the abortion topic but argue that the clone with a perfectly legitimate life shouldn't be given a life because it'll be hell for them under this topic.

I'll rather be a clone living in a loving family than an orphan without any family.

I see what you mean about 'filtering' now... I was reading and noticed the same thing.

And I don't understand how clones wouldn't have feelings either... If they don't, they'd be a walking talking machine with... blood?

[*Kathleen*]

However, people involved in this topic and the "abortion" topic seem to slightly contradict themselves. They argue that any life has potential and therefore should be kept alive no matter what in the abortion topic but argue that the clone with a perfectly legitimate life shouldn't be given a life because it'll be hell for them under this topic.

Hmm...I think they're saying that a true life shouldn't be taken away, and on the opposite end, artificial life shouldn't exist. That's what I'm getting from it. The religious people will say you can't play God, and in these two instances, you are to them, I suppose, if you create life like that or take it away without giving it a chance to walk Earth.

[*NatiMarie*]

I don't know, I'm not really sure if there should be cloning. I don't know, maybe there are risks which can be dangerous, but I don't know. I'm confusing myself right now...I'll just stop

[tkproduce]

Let me clear things out a little. Most people under this topic are arguing against cloning because either "they have no soul" (which is a totally incorrect assumption) or "it will be tough on the clone because he won't be treated normally". The latter argument is an alright one - though I think it's still a bit off the point.

The main reason millions of dollars are pumped into the research of cloning is for medical benefits. Clones can provide missing organs or missing tissue that hostpitals are in despaerate need for. You cannot just clone an organ - you must clone the whole human, then take out the bits you want. The issues come in there. Does the clone who you've just "built" count as a human being? Is it right to develop and kill clones for the benefit of other people? I have argued that they are just the same as any other human being and the reason I have done is not to support clones, but to argue against cloning because humans should not be sacrificed for the benefit of others.

[likeachild]

i'm against cloning
but aren't there like different types of cloning.
lie therapetic, etc..?

[casssy]

cloning can be bad when it gets into the wrong peoples hands.. i mean... say ... someone starts cloning themselves then training them to start killing people.. and more clones to kill more people.. its weird.. but its something to think about

[triipinfserious]

even though cloning could "bring back the dead," i think it`s sick `nd wrong ... the original is always better (= that`s my stand

[tkproduce]

cloning can be bad when it gets into the wrong peoples hands.. i mean... say ... someone starts cloning themselves then training them to start killing people.. and more clones to kill more people.. its weird.. but its something to think about

another misconception... clones are nothing like robots - they're "normal" human beings - it's just that have the same DNA as someone else's. Training a clone to kill is exactly the same concept as training your own kid to kill. If anyone's going to do that, having a child normally (i.e. impregnating a woman) is going to be a much cheaper way of doing so.

[*Kathleen*]

on the other hand, you are playing the role of God. Humans are not perfect, and attempting to create one by hand... would probably result in more imperfect humans. also, will the child have a soul? no one knows. only theories. I'll ask God when I see him.

But it's not like they're Frankenstein's monster - they're normal humans. They're not trying to make the perfect one. They're main focus on this is to do as tk said, help for future medical studies, or if someone needs a certain organ they can't get from someone's genes other than themselves. I hope that made sense.

[casssy]

another misconception... clones are nothing like robots - they're "normal" human beings - it's just that have the same DNA as someone else's. Training a clone to kill is exactly the same concept as training your own kid to kill. If anyone's going to do that, having a child normally (i.e. impregnating a woman) is going to be a much cheaper way of doing so.

true but what if u have someone whose really powerful n strong.. so they decide to clone them to get their traits or whatever.... i dunno.. its odd

[WildGriffin]

Ya know, a clone isnt the same person. They just look the same. Nothing more.

It's like someone getting plastic surgery to look like someone else, it won't exactly change them and won't make them goto hell. I dunno what arguments you guys have against cloneing, but they're most likely for the wrong reasons.

A clone is like a twin.

A clone is no less "holy" then a test tube baby or artifical insemination.

A clone has a soul, they just look like someone else.

*Still not getting how a clone wouldn't have a soul. It's one of God's "vessals" with the same genes as someone else.

[initial-seven]

I really dont see whats wrong with cloning..

[shawty_redd]

i dunno how i feel about..i kinda need to find out more about it first...

[tkproduce]

true but what if u have someone whose really powerful n strong.. so they decide to clone them to get their traits or whatever.... i dunno.. its odd

Is someone is powerful and strong, it is more likely that he/she picked up those traits during their lifetime, rather than those traits being natural-born ones. If we clone Saddam Hussein (not that anyone would want to) and bring him up in a loving American family, it's very unlikely that he will grow into an evil dictator. Sure, he might look like him, but I think most human traits are a product of events that happen during life.

[dasturbd]

The world is so over populated now, what the heck do we need to clone for. I could see cloning for parts so to speak...like if you lose a limb you could clone an identical one so that the person wouldn't be handicapped, or internal organs as was mentioned before...but to clone people for the hell of it is something we don't need. I also wouldn't have a probelm with livestock being cloned so to keep the food cycle going...if ever the case arose that we had shortages.

Cloning may provide a physical shell, but that shell does not have a personality so to speak, so it would not be an exact replica except for the physical. You would have to learn the personality, just as we did from the time of our births

I think when people are mentioning no souls...they're trying to get across that you can clone the body, but you can't clone their mind so to speak, or what's inside(mentally).

[tkproduce]

The world is so over populated now, what the heck do we need to clone for. I could see cloning for parts so to speak...like if you lose a limb you could clone an identical one so that the person wouldn't be handicapped, or internal organs as was mentioned before...but to clone people for the hell of it is something we don't need. I also wouldn't have a probelm with livestock being cloned so to keep the food cycle going...if ever the case arose that we had shortages.

Cloning may provide a physical shell, but that shell does not have a personality so to speak, so it would not be an exact replica except for the physical. You would have to learn the personality, just as we did from the time of our births

I think when people are mentioning no souls...they're trying to get across that you can clone the body, but you can't clone their mind so to speak, or what's inside(mentally).

You can't really clone just parts of the body, I don't think - maybe you can with simple things like a limb, but not with internal organs like kidneys and hearts. So you'll have to clone the whole body and then cut off the bits you want and throw away the rest. This shouldn't be a problem if clones don't have a soul.

As a matter of fact, if one could justify that clones have no souls, then it will makes things a lot easier. If they're just a physical shell with no personality, then I doubt an argument will arise. Companies will be allowed to manufacture clones and provide hospitals with human "parts" and make lots of money as well as saving a lot of lives.

However, because clones are "created" in almost the same way as any other human being, they have potential to lead a life. They will have personalities. Is it fair to use these clones the same way we use animals for experiments? Do clones have a "right" like other humans have? Some people think it is, others don't. That's where the argument lies.

[WildGriffin]

You can't really clone just parts of the body, I don't think

You can if done properly. No need to harvest organs from an otherwise normal cloned human being.

And clones would have souls. I'm tellin ya, they're the still a human but share some genes with someone that is already alive. Still one of God's vessals, with a predetermined look.

[immersion31]

not really, cuz ur playing wit life

[WildGriffin]

not really, cuz ur playing wit life

we already play with life all the time. face lifts and "test tube babies" paved the way. can you elaborate what "playing with life" is?

[FlyingFries]

err......notsure , itz good 4 clonin organs buh u need to kill a baby fetus i think

[WildGriffin]

u need to kill a baby fetus i think

go research it and report back with your findings, god knows im too lazy too. i'm thinking that they only need a tissue sample and the right genes to clone an organ...but i have no evidence what-so-ever to back it up.

[Mireh]

go research it and report back with your findings, god knows im too lazy too. i'm thinking that they only need a tissue sample and the right genes to clone an organ...but i have no evidence what-so-ever to back it up.

No, they need stem cells.

Well, I think that if your cloning, and the cloning fails, your killing 2 lives that could have been lived. Kinda like abortion.

[*Kathleen*]

I don't think cloning is the solution to medical needs...we can find them in other ways.

[IIO__oII]

I'm against it. Cloning is playing God which isn't cool.

took the words out of my mouth. =]

[ComradeRed]

Alot of you seem to not know how cloning works:

You take the DNA in the nucleus of your cell, hollow out the nucleus of an egg, and put your nucleus into the egg.

The egg is fertilized just like a normal egg, and a baby is born just like the normal baby, the only difference is it has your DNA.

There is nothing wrong with cloning. Cloning is the whole reason we exist. Nature reproduces by cloning. Without cloning, we would all be a single fertilized egg.

[EmeraldKnight]

Alot of you seem to not know how cloning works:

You take the DNA in the nucleus of your cell, hollow out the nucleus of an egg, and put your nucleus into the egg.

The egg is fertilized just like a normal egg, and a baby is born just like the normal baby, the only difference is it has your DNA.

There is nothing wrong with cloning. Cloning is the whole reason we exist. Nature reproduces by cloning. Without cloning, we would all be a single fertilized egg.

But what about cloning extinct animals? now THAT would be basically playing God, bringing something that nature deemed unfit to survive via natural selection back to life

[ComradeRed]

But what about cloning extinct animals? now THAT would be basically playing God, bringing something that nature deemed unfit to survive via natural selection back to life

First, it's almost scientifically impossible to extract viable DNA from a fossil.

SEcond, what's wrong with playing God?

[IIO__oII]

First, it's almost scientifically impossible to extract viable DNA from a fossil.

SEcond, what's wrong with playing God?

umm... u dont want to be playing with God.... cuase noone can be or even be a fraction of God...

[*CEP*]

Nah.
We really don't want anymore people. I mean, it'll be too crowded.
Plus, some people just deserve to stay dead.

Then again, it'll be kinda cool to bring back Jesus or someone more important. Like Elvis.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[EmeraldKnight]

Then again, it'll be kinda cool to bring back Jesus or someone more important. Like Elvis.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi 

haha, but there's no evidence that the ppl will be exactly the same.. i mean.. it goes back to the whole nature vs. nurture thing, what ppl come to be and what they do with the gift of life largely depends on their environment and opportunities presented

So realli... whats the whole point of cloning ppl if they wont be the same as the previous ones because the exactly environment and how they react to it CANNOT be reproduced

[craziplaya21]

im all 4 it especially if i can clone da hottest girl out there and hav her all 2 myself

[*Kathleen*]

im all 4 it especially if i can clone da hottest girl out there and hav her all 2 myself

Hah. *Cough selfish cough*

Hmm...yeah, Minda, it's okay to play God, but as I said - *Realizes she shouldn't be asking Minda of all people* - how will the person feel when they're treated like a lab rat, or more importantly, how society will look at them?

[tkproduce]

how society will look at them?

The problem is that most people are so damn ignorant and stupid. They hear the word "clone" and imagine some sort of zombie aimlessly walking around. I mean, just look at half the people in this forum. They don't have a clue what cloning is - they seem to be against it for all the wrong reasons. Society will look at "clones" as non-human machines with no souls as long as these ignorant people exist and the majority of people always will be ignorant.

[angel-roh]

im against it... someday they gona get picked on... "hey that girl/boy got cloned...hes fake...hes not real." plus... cloning is not a good thing to do...cus some crazy mad scientist can get paid from weird ppls... "weird" meaning... strange ppls...who do bad stuff... like they can clone president bush...and replace him... man not a good thing to do...if they start that cloning business. imma kick their @ss

[EmeraldKnight]

im against it... someday they gona get picked on... "hey that girl/boy got cloned...hes fake...hes not real." plus... cloning is not a good thing to do...cus some crazy mad scientist can get paid from weird ppls... "weird" meaning... strange ppls...who do bad stuff... like they can clone president bush...and replace him... man not a good thing to do...if they start that cloning business. imma kick their @ss

They cant replace Bush, I'm not sure if you know how cloning works.. they dont just make an exact replica of someone.. sure, they may be simlar in physical aspects, but the environment in which they grow up in plays a huge part.. its that nature vs. nurture argument..

The problem is that most people are so damn ignorant and stupid. They hear the word "clone" and imagine some sort of zombie aimlessly walking around. I mean, just look at half the people in this forum. They don't have a clue what cloning is - they seem to be against it for all the wrong reasons. Society will look at "clones" as non-human machines with no souls as long as these ignorant people exist and the majority of people always will be ignorant.

That I agree with.. in concept I dont think its that bad, but realistically, I'd hate to be a clone

[onenonly101]

I would hate to be a clone also because people like to find things about you and expose you to degrade you. Cloning is playing God osmething that I don't agree iwth because we were all made in His image, a clone would not be made in His image because He didn't make it. Aside form that the world is already getting over populated we don't need any extra people

[EmeraldKnight]

Cloning is playing God osmething that I don't agree iwth because we were all made in His image, a clone would not be made in His image because He didn't make it.

Can we PLEASE keep religion out of this, there are several religious debates going on already, keep religious views out please as they may contradict with others

Aside form that the world is already getting over populated we don't need any extra people

And yes, this I completely agree with

The ppl that advocate cloning some famous celebrity or their pet or something dont realize that it WILL NOT BE THE SAME because it doesnt matter if they're the same genetically, genetics account for the entirety of a person, the environment and its influences matter a lot as well

[*Kathleen*]

The problem is that most people are so damn ignorant and stupid. They hear the word "clone" and imagine some sort of zombie aimlessly walking around. I mean, just look at half the people in this forum. They don't have a clue what cloning is - they seem to be against it for all the wrong reasons. Society will look at "clones" as non-human machines with no souls as long as these ignorant people exist and the majority of people always will be ignorant.

I'm not saying that I'm going to look at them different; it's just that you know how publicized this is going to be once they actually clone the first human - that is if they do. People will know who he/she is. Also, as I said - they're just going to use him like a lab rat. I can't possibly see that as a moral thing to do. Of course, it's in the eye of the beholder, is it not?

This is my 4,000th post!

[EmeraldKnight]

This is my 4,000th post! 

Just had to brag there, didnt you..? haha kidding, many congrats!

I'm not saying that I'm going to look at them different; it's just that you know how publicized this is going to be once they actually clone the first human - that is if they do. People will know who he/she is. Also, as I said - they're just going to use him like a lab rat. I can't possibly see that as a moral thing to do. Of course, it's in the eye of the beholder, is it not?

Yes, the lab rat part I agree with, but society as a whole will treat them, not as a human, but as an experiment, cloning, in a way, takes away a person's humanity

[onenonly101]

Can we PLEASE keep religion out of this, there are several religious debates going on already, keep religious views out please as they may contradict with others


And yes, this I completely agree with

The ppl that advocate cloning some famous celebrity or their pet or something dont realize that it WILL NOT BE THE SAME because it doesnt matter if they're the same genetically, genetics account for the entirety of a person, the environment and its influences matter a lot as well

ok sorry, it is just that religion plays a major part in my life that is what i base alot of things off of and to debate you have to have reasons for your stance and that is one of my reasons.

Yeah people don't understand that they will not be the same. They will just look the same and have the same DNA. We had a debate like this st school and one thing that arose was that what if someone committed a crime and all they had to go on is DNA evidence and they had a clone how would they know who was guilty

[EmeraldKnight]

one thing that arose was that what if someone committed a crime and all they had to go on is DNA evidence and they had a clone how would they know who was guilty

Now THAT is an excellent point there, which kinda makes me wonder (off topic but if someone could answer it), what happens if a twin commits a crime?

And additionally, with cloning, the next step will be to genetically modify ppl and select the onli the desirable traits.. we'd have a Gatacca-like scenario

[onenonly101]

Twin thing I'm not sure and that is what i want to know.

Humans also go too far with something as you said making people with specific traits. Or making a specfic breed of clone made for fighting and things like that

[EmeraldKnight]

Or making a specfic breed of clone made for fighting and things like that

made for fighting? what do you mean by that?

oh haha nvrm.. i see what you mean, like in Star Wars.. haha well, yes, that would be something a mad scientist could do, create a clone army with which to attack ppl, although thats hardly unrealistic (was that what you meant?)

[onenonly101]

yeah that is what i meant. Also it starts to get confusing because I don't know if i were going to recognize them as human or not. And if i didn't then why not have them be the only ones sent to die for our country, but if they were human that idea would be completely inhumane. I don't think even if they really werent human that I would say that their life didn't matter

That probably didn;t make any sense, so i'd understand if you were thinking after you read that

[EmeraldKnight]

Also it starts to get confusing because I don't know if i were going to recognize them as human or not. And if i didn't then why not have them be the only ones sent to die for our country, but if they were human that idea would be completely inhumane. I don't think even if they really werent human that I would say that their life didn't matter

What? I'm very confused at what you said.. but that does bring up a very good point (that you might've just said but i didnt understand)

By cloning say multiple copies of one person, we reduce the value of the individual, and of life itself, and we cannot do that, life is precious, cloning onli undermines that idea

[onenonly101]

Yeah that was one of the things i was saying(i confused myself) because after cloning it does present the question how vaulable is one person if that person was cloned multiple times. Life then becomes one of those unimportant things that we throw to the waste lines

[*Kathleen*]

Haha cloning for military?! That's crazy, and that wouldn't be moral in my opinion - I mean, you're born as a clone, and your sole purpose in life is to fight for a country whose society will treat you differently? It's kind of...mean.

Oh, I did have to brag.

[EmeraldKnight]

Haha cloning for military?! That's crazy, and that wouldn't be moral in my opinion - I mean, you're born as a clone, and your sole purpose in life is to fight for a country whose society will treat you differently? It's kind of...mean.

I know.. and it doesnt seem like they're any arguments for the cloning side.. is this topic dead?

[onenonly101]

what happens if a twin commits a crime?

i don't know what happens in all cases but here are two cases http://www.polkonline.com/stories/042001/sta_twin.shtml
and
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/14/twins.rape.case.ap/

[EmeraldKnight]

Haha wow.. thanks!

[*NatiMarie*]

Hmm...cloning let's see. I don't know, it can be dangerous right because it's not really fool proof, or is it. If it's dangerous, then I oppose it but if it's not, I don't see what's so wrong with it. I mean, maybe the person who wants to clone somebody can have a remembrance of their lost one (or whatever) as the clone baby grows up. I don't know. Hmm...I'm probably not even making sense. I seriously not to knowledgeable of the whole cloning issue, I'm going back reading some of the past posts of the people. I'll get back on this (knowledge is power...*runs to gain more knowledge*)

[tkproduce]

I know.. and it doesnt seem like they're any arguments for the cloning side.. is this topic dead?

I think people are contradicting themselves all over the place in the debate forum. One place they're arguing that war is a good thing because the "peace" it will bring and the money it generates completely outweighs the sacrifice of human lives. Another place, like here, they argue that using clones for medical experiments is cruel and wrong. Surely if one argues about the economical benefits of the war, then they should be arguing similarly for the economical benefits of cloning.

[darkcoldplace]

sure im for cloning if it helps not hurts!

[EmeraldKnight]

sure im for cloning if it helps not hurts! 

How does it help? You cant just throw out a random statement without any basis behind it; it hurts because
a. we have too much population as it is
b. it devalues the individual
c. it lends itself to abuse

[ComradeRed]

a) We do not have too much population as it is. If the entire world lived at the population density of Hong Kong, we could all fit into the state of New Jersey. If we lived at the population density of New York City, we could all fit into Yugoslavia.

Besides, cloning does not increase population any faster than sex does. A baby still has to be fertilized and developed.

b) If you really valued the individual, then you would respect the right of the individual to OWN his own genetic code--and to duplicate or alter it as he so wishes. To abolish cloning is saying that the individuals' genome belongs to the government--this devaluse people.

c) How could cloning be "abused"? As opposed to the airplane? You think the Wright Brothers should have not invented teh airplane cause Sept 11th MIGHT have happeend down the road?

"If we had a reliable way of labelling our toys good and bad, then it would be easy to regulate technology. But we don't. Anyone who concerns himself with big technology: to push it forward OR TO STOP IT-- is gambling in human lives."
--Freeman Dyson

When a government gambles in human lives, it loses more often than it wins.

[EmeraldKnight]

a) We do not have too much population as it is. If the entire world lived at the population density of Hong Kong, we could all fit into the state of New Jersey. If we lived at the population density of New York City, we could all fit into Yugoslavia.

Well with the current population growth we should be thinking of ways to slow down growth, cloning would onli speed it up

Besides, cloning does not increase population any faster than sex does. A baby still has to be fertilized and developed.

But this would allow for rapid, selective, fertilization

b) If you really valued the individual, then you would respect the right of the individual to OWN his own genetic code--and to duplicate or alter it as he so wishes. To abolish cloning is saying that the individuals' genome belongs to the government--this devaluse people

??? I suppose it could be one's own choice to clone oneself.. but that's not such a likely possibility.. but it would still devalue the individual and when society realizes that genetics can be so easily manipulated.. i mean.. what's next? selective breeding?

c) How could cloning be "abused"? As opposed to the airplane? You think the Wright Brothers should have not invented teh airplane cause Sept 11th MIGHT have happeend down the road?

Well by your analogy.. anything can be abused.. so thus nothing should be utilized for fear of abuse

When a government gambles in human lives, it loses more often than it wins.

Doesnt that support my case?

[ComradeRed]

I wrote a rebuttal to that but it was lost due to server. Anyways my main points were:

Cloning owuld probably only exist in first world countries where overpopulation is not a big deal.

VOLUNTARY selective breeding is NOT bad. It happens every day. When you're like "I think that guy/girl is cute/hot/sexy/smart/charming/makes alot of money/cool/whatever" and then breed, that IS selective breeding... you are selecting based on certain criteria.

[EmeraldKnight]

Cloning owuld probably only exist in first world countries where overpopulation is not a big deal.

Uhuh... so we should make more copies of the rich and wealthy?

VOLUNTARY selective breeding is NOT bad. It happens every day. When you're like "I think that guy/girl is cute/hot/sexy/smart/charming/makes alot of money/cool/whatever" and then breed, that IS selective breeding... you are selecting based on certain criteria

Sure you're selecting, but there's still a fair amount of chance involved.. this is entire selective and manipulative.. i mean.. the ppl that were born genetically superior to others.. one could clone them and create a genetic elite, like in GATACCA, ever watch that movie?

[ComradeRed]

Uhuh... so we should make more copies of the rich and wealthy?


Sure you're selecting, but there's still a fair amount of chance involved.. this is entire selective and manipulative.. i mean.. the ppl that were born genetically superior to others.. one could clone them and create a genetic elite, like in GATACCA, ever watch that movie?

I've seen Gatacca. Gatacca, Brave New World, etc. are misrepresentations.

In those situations, the GOVERNMENT FORCES YOU TO BE ENGINEERED, ETC AND DISCRIMINATES BASED ON THAT.

That is wrong.

But FORCING people to be engineered is wrong, so is ABOLISHING it. The individual owns his own genome. He should be allowed to alter it.

I think life would be more fun as an Ubermensch.

[EmeraldKnight]

In those situations, the GOVERNMENT FORCES YOU TO BE ENGINEERED, ETC AND DISCRIMINATES BASED ON THAT.

No, not in Gatacca they dont, the parents choose; but anyways... alright, so you say this would be available to mainly the first world countries.. so the ppl there could chose to clone and create a race genetically superior to the rest of the world, are you in favor of that?

[ComradeRed]

No, not in Gatacca they dont, the parents choose; but anyways... alright, so you say this would be available to mainly the first world countries.. so the ppl there could chose to clone and create a race genetically superior to the rest of the world, are you in favor of that?

Thye more the technology develops, the cheaper it becomes.

At first it will only be available to the rich, but that will change as it becomes more commonplace.

Cell phones were only available to the rich when they first came out. Now most people have one.

[EmeraldKnight]

But if it becomes more commonplace.. that'd be more population growth, AND it'd reduce uniqueness in the human species

[ComradeRed]

But if it becomes more commonplace.. that'd be more population growth, AND it'd reduce uniqueness in the human species

Well if population grows, technology would grow too... The technology would help prevent the problems associated with population growth.

As I said, there is no lack of living space on Earth.

Besides, cloning IS NOT FASTER THAN SEX. They take basically the same amount of time to produce a baby.

[EmeraldKnight]

1. you ignored my uniqueness argument.. with the variation of the human species decreasing, a disease could potentially wipe out a significant portion of the population
2. it IS faster because though it takes the same time TO produce.. more can be conceived at the same time

[ComradeRed]

1. you ignored my uniqueness argument.. with the variation of the human species decreasing, a disease could potentially wipe out a significant portion of the population
2. it IS faster because though it takes the same time TO produce.. more can be conceived at the same time

Uniqueness: That's where genetic engineering comes into play. Moreover, even if from now on we all reproduced ONLY by cloning uniqueness would NOT go down, it just wouldn't go up either. So worst case scenario it stays the same.

NO!!!! You still need a surrogate mother! One woman can still only hold one baby every nine months!

[EmeraldKnight]

NO!!!! You still need a surrogate mother! One woman can still only hold one baby every nine months!

Well... as technology progresses.. perhaps we wont need them as cloning becomes more widely spread but what i meant was that a lot mre could be fertilized at once and at a more rapid rate

Uniqueness: That's where genetic engineering comes into play. Moreover, even if from now on we all reproduced ONLY by cloning uniqueness would NOT go down, it just wouldn't go up either. So worst case scenario it stays the same

But would you not consider it a boring world if everyone looked and were genetically the same?

[ComradeRed]

Well... as technology progresses.. perhaps we wont need them as cloning becomes more widely spread but what i meant was that a lot mre could be fertilized at once and at a more rapid rate

But would you not consider it a boring world if everyone looked and were genetically the same?

1) You need a surrogate mother who's introns match those of the person to be cloned. It takes just as much time as sex.

2) Not everyone would look teh same. People would want to be different.

[EmeraldKnight]

2) Not everyone would look teh same. People would want to be different.

Then how is that relevent to cloning?

[ComradeRed]

Then how is that relevent to cloning?

We're not cloning all from ONE prototype person... We would be cloning from many different people... and besides there would still be people who would engage in traditiaonal reproduction for the hell of it.