8 Reasons NOT To Join The Military, Tiem to argue Rating Options

[fameONE]

Military recruiters tour the country selling a dangerous product with glamorous ads, just like tobacco companies or drug pushers. The ads promise opportunity and adventure -- but don't believe the hype.

1. Joining the military is hazardous to your education.

The military isn't a generous financial aid institution, and it isn't concerned with helping you pay for school. Two-thirds of all recruits never get any college funding from the military. Only 15% graduated with a four-year degree.

What about going to school while you're in? Many GIs report that military life leaves them too busy and exhausted -- and doesn't really make time for them to go to class.

2. Joining the military is hazardous to your future.

Joining the military is a dead end. After you've spent a few years in the military, you're 2 to 5 times more likely to be homeless than your friends who never joined. And, according to the VA, you'll probably earn less too. The skills you learn in the military will be geared to military jobs, not civilian careers; when you come out, many employers will tell you to go back to school and get some real training. As former Secretary of Defense Cheney declared, "The reason to have a military is to be prepared to fight and win wars...it's not a jobs program."

3. Joining the military is hazardous to people of color.

During the Gulf War, over 50 percent of front-line troops were people of color. Overall, over 30 percent of enlisted personnel but only 12 percent of officers are people of color, who are then disciplined and discharged under other than honorable conditions at a much higher rate than whites. When recent studies showed a slight dip in young African-Americans' (disproportionately high) interest in the military, the Pentagon reacted with a new ad campaign. They're targeting Latino youth with special Spanish-language ads. The recruiters' lethal result: tracking high achieving young people in communities of color into a dead-end, deadly occupation.

4. Joining the military is hazardous to women.

Sexual harassment and assault are a daily reality for the overwhelming majority of women in the armed forces. The VA's own figures show 90 percent of recent women veterans reporting harassment - a third of whom were raped. Despite the glossy brochures that advertise "opportunities for women," the military's inherent sexism is evident from sergeants shouting "girl!" at trainees who don't "measure up," to the intimidation of women who speak out about harassment and discrimination - not to mention military men's sexual abuse of civilian women in base communities.

5. Joining the military is hazardous to your civil rights.

If you aren't willing to give up your rights, the military isn't for you. Once you enlist, you become military property: you lose your right to come and go freely, you're ordered around 24 hours a day, and you can be punished by your command without trial or jury. Free speech rights are severely limited in the military. You can be punished for being honest about being lesbian, gay or bisexual. Worst of all even if you hate your job, you can't quit.

6. Joining the military is hazardous to your health.

The military can't guarantee you'll be alive at the end of your eight-year commitment: they can't even promise you won't be desperately ill from "mystery illnesses" like those of the Vietnam and Persian Gulf wars. Whether it's atomic testing in the 1950s, Agent Orange during the war against Vietnam, or experimental vaccines and toxic weapons in the Persian Gulf, the military shamelessly destroys the health of its personnel -- and then does its best to downplay and ignore their suffering.

7. Joining the military is hazardous to the environment.

The US military is the single largest and worst polluter in the world, from toxins at bases to nuclear-tipped missiles to the destruction of ecosystems from South Vietnam to the Persian Gulf. And in today's military, the tanks and weapons are coated with depleted uranium from toxic nuclear waste!

8. Joining the military is hazardous to our lives.

The "adventure" in the commercials is code for war, the "discipline" code for violence. The military trains recruits to employ deadly force, yet recruiters rarely discuss the dehumanizing process of basic training, the psychological costs of killing, or the horrors of war.

The ads lie because the product is lethal -- not just to you, but to all of us.

For more information contact or write:

Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors:

630 20th Street #302,
Oakland, CA 94612
510-465-1617
Fax 510 465-2459

or

1515 Cherry Street,
Philadelphia, PA 19102
215-563-8787
Fax 215-567-2096

Argue.... I mean, debate.

[illumineering]

The elite of the socioeconomic food chain will never send their sons and daughters to war although they typically are responsible for the decisions that lead to it.

[*not_your_average*]

*bows down to brandon* I AM NOT WORTHY. I AM NOT WORTHY. </end idiocity>

honestly, though. do you really think these facts are going to slow down enlistment (sp?) in the US military? i think not. the only real reason people join is so that they can recieve money for college. but many of those who want that aren't guaranteed that. it seems quite ridiculous to me that people don't realize that when you join the military, your life is automatically at risk. anyone with common sense would know that.

[vash1530]

thanx but i wasn't planning on it anyway

anyways joining the military, to be blunt, is stupid. its a nowhere life that leads yout to the bottom of society. unless ur a west point graduate (or any of the other military acadamies), ur not doing anything after that.

[yukichan]

thanx but i wasn't planning on it anyway

anyways joining the military, to be blunt, is stupid. its a nowhere life that leads yout to the bottom of society. unless ur a west point graduate (or any of the other military acadamies), ur not doing anything after that.

You don't always have to be a graduate from a military school just to get high up or become an officer.. And joining the military doesn't lead you to the bottom of the society. The military provides you with a place to stay, and sometimes even gives you a job. For some people who aren't doing so great in school and have no place to go after high school, other then the streets, its better to join the military they provide you with a job to get through life. Joining the military is hazardous, but there are many other jobs in this world that is hazardous.

[HolyMoly]

My dad joined the military and he is the smartest man I know, and hardest working man I know. My dad says that instead of whining and crying about our country he decided to serve it. My grandpa was in the military too. THey are both fine men.

8. Joining the military is hazardous to our lives.

The "adventure" in the commercials is code for war, the "discipline" code for violence. The military trains recruits to employ deadly force, yet recruiters rarely discuss the dehumanizing process of basic training, the psychological costs of killing, or the horrors of war.

This is because they are trained to go into war.

[fameONE]

My dad joined the military and he is the smartest man I know, and hardest working man I know. My dad says that instead of whining and crying about our country he decided to serve it. My grandpa was in the military too. THey are both fine men.
This is because they are trained to go into war. 

So your conclusion that every man of the armed forces is a fine man? Or that by joining the military yourself, you'd find complete content in what you're doing? Be real here.

[lavadrugs]

I feel that joining the millarty ( sorry i can't spell) Shoul be a last resort

[lavadrugs]

I feel that joining the millarty ( sorry i can't spell) Shoul be a last resort

[HolyMoly]

So your conclusion that every man of the armed forces is a fine man? Or that by joining the military yourself, you'd find complete content in what you're doing? Be real here.

If I did join the military myself, not that I would cuase I want to do something different with my life, it would be because I choose to and I want to serve my country respectably (sp) and joining the military does help you. In a way it does. The military just does their job. Without the military do you suppose this country would be a better country? I think not.

[MFDOOM]

If I did join the military myself, not that I would cuase I want to do something different with my life, it would be because I choose to and I want to serve my country respectably (sp) and joining the military does help you. In a way it does. The military just does their job. Without the military do you suppose this country would be a better country? I think not.

That would be your decision, and your personal feelings. Every individual who joins the military has a different reason for joining. At tiems its a last resort, other times its to get out of a bad situation. But it isn't often that you meet people with a personal agenda making claims like, "I'd like to die while fighting for my country so I'm going to leave my wife and two kids and join the Army." How illogical is that?

Are you a minority? I hate to drop the race joker, but if you were black or hispanic, you'd be able to understand the disadvantages a bit better.

My argument wasn't that the idea of military is "bad," but what has been going on habitually behind the scenes for nearly a century needs to be addressed and until issues are resolved, then joining the military (especially as minority) isn't the wisest choice.

[illumineering]

At tiems its a last resort, other times its to get out of a bad situation.

Absolutely. Many judges have offered enlistement in the military as an alternative to incarceration.

[MFDOOM]

Absolutely.  Many judges have offered enlistement in the military as an alternative to incarceration.

Implying that militaristic servitude is punishment. 9 Reasons Not to Join the Military?

[HolyMoly]

That would be your decision, and your personal feelings. Every individual who joins the military has a different reason for joining. At tiems its a last resort, other times its to get out of a bad situation. But it isn't often that you meet people with a personal agenda making claims like, "I'd like to die while fighting for my country so I'm going to leave my wife and two kids and join the Army." How illogical is that?

Are you a minority? I hate to drop the race joker, but if you were black or hispanic, you'd be able to understand the disadvantages a bit better.

My argument wasn't that the idea of military is "bad," but what has been going on habitually behind the scenes for nearly a century needs to be addressed and until issues are resolved, then joining the military (especially as minority) isn't the wisest choice.

Good point.

[medic]

So your conclusion that every man of the armed forces is a fine man? Or that by joining the military yourself, you'd find complete content in what you're doing? Be real here.

Half of those are only if you do reserve. I mean, if you go active, you not only have everything payed for, you also get retirement. My grandpa racked in about $10,000 a month when he retired. He was at Pay Grade: O10 (He was a General) though.

I especially like number #8, that applies to people in combat, someone that works at say the NOC, or on satellites during war time, I don’t think any bullets will be coming there way. “recruiters rarely discuss the dehumanizing process of basic training” what’s so dehumanizing about Basic, being called a maggot, or getting paid to get in shape? Basic Training only enhances your instinct of survival of the fittest.

I leave this summer anyway, so I have a good idea of what to expect. Some people use it as a last resort, I am doing it because I have wanted to for a while, I don’t need the money.

[*kryogenix*]

Half of those are only if you do reserve. I mean, if you go active, you not only have everything payed for, you also get retirement. My grandpa racked in about $10,000 a month when he retired. He was at Pay Grade: O10 (He was a General) though.

I especially like number #8, that applies to people in combat, someone that works at say the NOC, or on satellites during war time, I don’t think any bullets will be coming there way. “recruiters rarely discuss the dehumanizing process of basic training” what’s so dehumanizing about Basic, being called a maggot, or getting paid to get in shape? Basic Training only enhances your instinct of survival of the fittest.

I leave this summer anyway, so I have a good idea of what to expect. Some people use it as a last resort, I am doing it because I have wanted to for a while, I don’t need the money.

Out of curiousity, are you going to be a medic?

[medic]

Out of curiousity, are you going to be a medic?

No, SAT Com.

Then after that, Warrent Officer school, then Aviation to fly the good-ole Black Hawk....

[fameONE]

No, SAT Com.

Then after that, Warrent Officer school, then Aviation to fly the good-ole Black Hawk....

Best of luck to you. I'm not downing the military at all. I'm 50/50 on the matter. I grew up wanting to be a Marine and then I opened my mind to politics and current events.

HOWEVER...

to believe that joining the military is as wonderful as the propoganda makes it out to be (videogames, commercials, movies) is pretty naive.

[vash1530]

i always thought it would be interesting to join and become a soldier. deep thought and research, however, have since moved me in the oppisite direction as the chances at a good quality of life (in my opinion) become slimmer.

[uLoVeMikeRoch]

Are you a minority? I hate to drop the race joker, but if you were black or hispanic, you'd be able to understand the disadvantages a bit better.

What if the person was Asian?
Or Native American?
Or an Elf?

[xmkaex]

^elf?..hahah

im afraid to get shot

[Levy2k6]

ima argue each single one.... just because ima tell the truth and im bored.

#1... How is joining the military hazardous to your education? okay.. maybe you haven't gotten all the stats.. after you go to training, and learn life skills and something they like to call ATTENTION to Order which means.. if you don't know how to fix your bed or locker, how does someone expect you to work on an airplane, or even make a sandwhich.. you can't move on from week 1 if you can't do this and if u mess up in the later weeks.. you get pulled a week or two... Some trainees can spend over 10 weeks on a 6 week boot camp.... okay the GI Bill? ever heard of it? after boot camp, you can put in, lets say.. $1000... after your 4 years.. you come out with $10,000 or something like that.. idk but ask anyone enlisted that knows the facts, it's a good deal and i'd do it but i'm too stupid to enlist.


#2... getting a job?... okay let's say.. who are u gonna hire.. a high school diploma or drop out or a retired US Marine? idk.. even if i were to apply at Mcdonalds.. the Marine will get the job. idk how you get this low skill idea.. BECAUSE when you enlist, you get to choose a job, you could be a mechanic, fighter, logistics or something, and after your contract ends, you could leave the job you have choosen to learn or leave. You also leave the military with certifications and degrees... they do go to school there.

#3... There ain't nothing with the military and color... they just want diversity... did you know in the next 20 years, Hispanics are gonna be the majority in the U.S? The reason most colored people are in the front lines is because they choose to do those jobs. Some jobs are most suitable for others. BEFORE YOU EVEN ENLIST, you take the ASVAB and that's a aptitute test that tells you of the possible jobs your suited for.. you can't alwyas be a jet fighter but u could be a technian instead.. that's how jobs work...


#4...hazardous to women? i think its dangerous to live outside of a base.. this fact is just bogus.

#5... Civil Rights? you joined the military and you know what you get yourself into, its a contract.. The US military has its own court system outside the US system... you learn this in US Goverment. Once you enlist and say the oath, it's over. it's true, but it's not like they hide it from you.

#6... Health... anywhere you are, your always in danger.. you could enlist and become a firefighter (yes, they are firefighters in the military bases), doesnt mean your gonna be as safe as a firefighter outside of a US Base... you pick the job and you learn the risks, thats how it works.

#7... Enviroment? what isn't safe these days?

#8... this last one is just stupid... do u really know what goes on at Boot Camp? yes, they do get burned and what not BUT they go to school, the eat, they PT, they train, they get ready for the lives ahead of them, not everyone is gonna be a soldier, i might become a P.A. and give tours around the base to kids from a school.. i might be a MP and be a security guard at the entrance of a base in the middle of San Antonio texas.. they ain't brainwashed..



thisarticle sounds like alot of crap tho...

the best thing to do in life if you have nowhere to go is, join the military.. you have a better opportunities to do anything you want in life.. any job, the military has it... you could be mowing lawns in the military if you really wanted too.. the military pays u the 1st and 15th of every month and it's gonna be there.. you aren't gonna get screwed over by some job or layed off. the more commited you are, the higher rank you become, the more money you get.

The military isnt for everyone, it's for those who want to go out and make something of themselves.

I'm only a HS senior and i'm in AFJROTC.. i've been to AF bases, i've talked to recruiters (they never convince me tho), i know the facts, i have enlisted friends, i know what goes on... this article is alot of BS tho.

I got a friend who joined the National Guard.... he joined his junior year in HS.. went to boot camp that summer and came back the next school year.. he applyed to THE CITADEL and now the military is paying him through college. He's not the brightest guy i know too.

i got another friend who graduated two years ago.. he's guarding US weapons somewhere in wyoming or something. wild stuff. he's not in any danger.. okay, he is but atleast he's enjoying what he's doing, has a job, getting paid, and made alot friends in the way too.

another girl just enlisted, she's in school at Lackland AFB. she graduated last year, awesome friend still. no problems heard from her.

and thats all i want to mention...

[*Statistik*]

I don't want to get shot. That's my only reason not wanting to join the military.

[fameONE]

I don't want to get shot. That's my only reason not wanting to join the military.

You shouldn't be allowed in the debate forum.

[snak3y3z1001]

1. Mongomery GI Bill. Invest $100 a month for a year, you will get $36k towards college. Invest for a extra 4 months and get $48k towards college. Once you step foot in bootcamp, your earnin colleg credits. Anytime they train you yur gettin college credits.

2. Geared towards military job? Do you mean government job? This is false. Right now my job is a eletronic technician. I'm pretty sure I can easily find a cilivian job once i leave the service. I know a guy who lefted the service after he did his 5 years. Got a job in less then a week and is gettin paid $150k/yr. Doubt anyone can earn that much straight out of college without no type of experience what soever. You can go Nuke, leave after your 6 years and EASILY make $200k a year.

3. Recruiters does not target a specific race. You either walk into their office and request some info or request them online.

4. There are more sexual assualt and harrassment on women outside the service.

5. They tell you what you are giving up before you sign on the dotted line and say yur oath. If your scared to lose your rights, dont join at all. Simple as that.

6. Last time i check its dangerous to work at construction sites, hospitals, work in law enforcement. Its a dangerous world we live in. Get use to it.

7. Too late to save our planet now. Getting rid of the military wont accomplish squat.

8. Heh. Dehumanizing? Its more like a mental game they play. A mental game where they weed out the weak and strong. If you cant keep your area clean or follow directions, who would trust you in handling missles or drivin the boat? Sure they chew you out. Its like your parents yellin at you only 10x worse. Yes soldiers are trained to kill but that doesnt mean they run around shooting everything that moves. They only shoot when they are endangered. Its either kill or get killed.

Right now im stationed in Groton, CT. Im still in school and still will be for the next year. Im getting paid just to learn.

[illumineering]

snaak3yz1001 your recruiter did a marvelous job! Unfortunately, there are a few realities he/she forgot to mention...

1. The GI Bill, while an effective recruiting tool, does nothing to enhance the ability of a soldier to gain admission into a university. While there are exceptions to the norm, the majority of soldiers leaving the military do not use the GI Bill. As for your notion of earning college credits, you are only partially correct. Each individual university will evaluate the content of your training against course requirements to determine whether you are able to receive course credit.

2. Can you offer any proof of this 150K? Even if it is true, it is definately the exception to the rule as the majority of military jobs do not have a civilian equivalent. Your "certainty" is going to depend on more than an arbitrary statement.

3. Recruiters target lower socio-economic groups. The trend is that the greater the education one receives, the less likely a person is to consider the military. Today, the military is lowering recruiting standards to meet goals. Read an article.

4. Per capita figures show higher percentages occurring in the military. That's what he was citing.

5. You are given enough information to make the military look like an attractive option that is equivalent or superior to opportunities available in the civilian sector.

6. You're lying to yourself if you think the danger associated with a construction site is equivalent to the dangers associated with a combat zone.

7. It's a critical component of every institution to examine its mission, effectiveness, training, etc. Reducing the role of the military has the capacity to free large amounts of money and resources that could be utilize to fund other programs.

8. The military does dehumanize recruits as the primary mission of soldiers is to obey orders without question. Thinking and questioning are outside the scope of acceptable practices.

I'm glad you're enjoying your military experience, but you're sounding like a clone of the recruiting mantra. How do I know this? I was in the service as well. The "real world" of civilian education and jobs has entrance criteria and performance expectations that do not universally match the qualifications for a good soldier. Although, for your sake, I hope you are the exception to the norm. Good luck.

[EddieV]

Look on the bright side. You get a gun!

[*kryogenix*]

What website did you get this from? I'd really like to see the raw data they get this from.

[Mr. Slowjamz]

^

I second that ...im getting like 4214141 from the navy and the national guard soo.

[cjphelangood]

1. Mongomery GI Bill. Invest $100 a month for a year, you will get $36k towards college. Invest for a extra 4 months and get $48k towards college. Once you step foot in bootcamp, your earnin colleg credits. Anytime they train you yur gettin college credits.

2. Geared towards military job? Do you mean government job? This is false. Right now my job is a eletronic technician. I'm pretty sure I can easily find a cilivian job once i leave the service. I know a guy who lefted the service after he did his 5 years. Got a job in less then a week and is gettin paid $150k/yr. Doubt anyone can earn that much straight out of college without no type of experience what soever. You can go Nuke, leave after your 6 years and EASILY make $200k a year.

3. Recruiters does not target a specific race. You either walk into their office and request some info or request them online.

4. There are more sexual assualt and harrassment on women outside the service.

5. They tell you what you are giving up before you sign on the dotted line and say yur oath. If your scared to lose your rights, dont join at all. Simple as that.

6. Last time i check its dangerous to work at construction sites, hospitals, work in law enforcement. Its a dangerous world we live in. Get use to it.

7. Too late to save our planet now. Getting rid of the military wont accomplish squat.

8. Heh. Dehumanizing? Its more like a mental game they play. A mental game where they weed out the weak and strong. If you cant keep your area clean or follow directions, who would trust you in handling missles or drivin the boat? Sure they chew you out. Its like your parents yellin at you only 10x worse. Yes soldiers are trained to kill but that doesnt mean they run around shooting everything that moves. They only shoot when they are endangered. Its either kill or get killed.

Right now im stationed in Groton, CT. Im still in school and still will be for the next year. Im getting paid just to learn.

[MissFits]

^ You are wrong about the recruiters.
We had recruiters at my high school at least twice a week. They target everyone. And, if you register to vote the military will mail you information on your states national guard.

A friend of a very close friend of mine just got back from quite a long stay in Iraq. He was 23 when he left and he is 26 now. If you remember hearing about a Pepsi factory being blown up, he was there doing it. He was nearly killed almost every day. He was very much dehumanized before he went. One day he tripped over the dead body of his best friend there, and just had to keep going. He had no time to stop or try and save his body because he would have been killed. Terrible things happen to some people in Iraq, but my future sister in law was sent to Quatar (sp?) to watch a sleeper cell type thing and she never battled anyone.
It depends on what branch you are in and what job you have, really.

[cjphelangood]

I am an Army Wife and couldn't have said it better myself. Enlisting is giving our family a better life than we had before. My husband worked for a major industrial company(Dupont) and even though he didn't go to war he was still at risk because of the chemicals he had to work around. I hear people complain about the military, but its usually the people who either just know gossip or people who know someone that was in the military and was a shit bag. Lets face it to have a military life as bad as some of these blogs I have read you have to be a total "shit bag". My husband is going to school and so am I, and the Army is helping us do it. We are stationed in Europe and live in a nice home that is secure, rent and utility free, totally free medical and dental for the entire family, and most importantly JOB SECURITY!!, For all the people out there that have something negative to say about the military...DO MORE RESEARCH AND REMEMBER IF IT WEREN'T FOR THOSE WHO SERVED IN THE PAST, AND ARE SERVING NOW OR WILL SERVE IN THE FUTURE...YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DOG ON THE MILITARY LIKE YOU DO!! TO THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE MESSAGE I'M REPLYING TO...DRIVE ON!!HOOAH!!

[MissFits]

^My god, I hate Hoo-ah. Dumbest saying ever invented.

It is a very stable job. I won't say you get paid what you deserve, but you get paid well.
I don't remember exactly how much Dave (the man in my previous post) got paid, but I do remember thinking it was GROSSLY under what he deserved for what he saw.

[fameONE]

Oh, Army Wife, I get it; if you're not pumping up the military, then you're against it, right? Ok, gotcha.

I had to be stubborn. I made this post, and I joined the Marine Corps.

The irony.

[*Steven*]

Oh, Army Wife, I get it; if you're not pumping up the military, then you're against it, right? Ok, gotcha.

I had to be stubborn. I made this post, and I joined the Marine Corps.

The irony.

So would you still say those are 8 valid reasons not to join the military?

[Joss-eh-lime]

sure, that may all be true...im not saying it is, but we still need brave men and women to join, b/c we need a military!


it sucks though and i wouldnt want my son or daughter joining.

[fameONE]

So would you still say those are 8 valid reasons not to join the military?

Its extremely exaggerated. Much of that took an inch and stretched it into a mile. If anything, your individual treatment as a servicemen relies on your current unit, and direct chain of command. It has nothing to do with the military or specific branch of service.

Being in the military is not hazardous to your education. You'd be surprised at the amount of free time a Marine could have. Lets be real, any substantial can be done in a couple hours, which leaves the rest of the day. Most senior enlisted and commissioned officers understand the value of education.

Hazardous to people of color, huh? The reason why the Gulf War stats reflected so many Blacks and Hispanics on the front line is because there are disgusting bonuses available in the Army. 40 grand just be an infantryman? Hell yea, I'd take that shit. Individuals from all across the country, and various parts of the world, are forced to work, interact, live and fight together; any pre-existing racism generally goes out the window. The idea of putting people of color on the frontline died with Vietnam.

There are so many employment possibilities for young veterans its ridiculous. I could do anything from go back to school on a full ride, be a contract killer for Blackwater, or work for the alphabet boys (FBI, CIA, DEA, ..PD, etc). Not to mention the jobs available for your specific MOS. The more I think about this post, the more I laugh at myself and how much of a yuppie college kid I was 2 years ago.

[kryogenix]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBflQLa75C8

She called...

Blacks, Whites...wait
African Americans and Caucasians, Asians, excuse me.
Vietnamese, Philipenes, Koreans and Jamaicans or
Haitans, waitin' Hispanics y'all.

Please be paitent
Mexican, Puerto Ricans, Venezualean, Cuban, Dominican, Panamanian Democrats
I beg your pardon, you partied with the late, great Reagan?
Republican, Independent, Christian, Catholic,
Methodist, Baptist, 7th Day Adventist, 5 Percenters,
Hindu, Sunii Muslim, Brothers and Sisters who never seen the New York city skyline when the twin towers still existed.

But still She called.

From the bowels of Ground Zero she sent this 911 distress signal.
Because She was in desperate need of a hero,
and didn't have time to decipher what to call 'em,
so she called 'em all Her children.

The children of the stars and bars who needed to know nothing more than the fact that she called.
The fact that someone attempted to harm us
this daughter who covered us all with her loving arms.
And now these arms are sprawled across New York City streets.

A smoke filled lung, a silt covered faced,
and a solitary tear poured out of her cheek.
Her singed garments carpets Pennsylvania Avenue and the Pentagon was under her feet.
As she began to talk, she began to cough up small particles of debris
and said, "I am America, and I'm calling on the land of the free."

So they answered.

All personal differences set to the side
because right now there was no time to decide which state building the Confederate flag should fly over,
and which trimester the embryo is considered alive,
or on our monetary units, and which God we should confide.
You see, someone attempted to choke the voice
of the one who gave us the right for choice,
and now she was callin.
And somebody had to answer.
Who was going to answer?

So they did.
Stern faces and chisled chins.
Devoted women and disciplined men,
who rose from the ashes like a phoenix
and said "don't worry, we'll stand in your defense."
They tightened up their bootlaces
and said goodbye to loved ones, family and friends.
They tried to bombard them with the "hold on", "wait-a-minute's", and "what-if's".
And "Daddy, where you goin?".
And, "Mommy, why you leavin?".
And they merely kissed them on their foreheads and said "Don't worry, I have my reasons.
You see, to this country I pledged my allegience
to defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic.
So as long as I'm breathin, I'll run though hell-fire,
meet the enemy on the front lines,
look him directly in his face,
stare directly in his eyes and scream,
"I AM AMERICA! WE WILL NOT BE TERRORIZED!
WE WILL NOT BE TERRORIZED!
I REFUSE TO BE AFRAID!
I'LL FIGHT YOU ANY COUNTRY, ANY CONTINENT, ANY TERRAIN.
I'LL FIGHT TO MY LAST BREATH!"

And if by chance death is my fate,
pin my medals upon my chest,
and throw Old Glory on my grave.
But, don't y'all cry for me.
You see, my Father's prepared a place.
I'll be a part of his Holy army standing a watch at the Pearly Gates.
Because freedom was never free.
POW's, and fallen soldiers
all paid the ultimate sacrafice
along side veterans who put themselves in harms way.
Risking their lives and limbs just to hold up democracy's weight,
but still standing on them broken appendages anytime the National Anthem was played.
You see, these were the brave warriors that gave me the right
to say that I'm Black. Or white.

Or
African American or Caucasian,
I'm Asian, excuse me.
I'm Vietnamese, Philipene, Korean, or Jamaican.
I'm Haitan, Hispanic

Y'all, Please be paitent.

I'm Mexican, Puerto Rican, Venezualean, Cuban,
Dominican, Panamanian, Democrat
I beg your pardon, you see I partied with the late, great Reagan.
I'm Republican, Independent, Christian, Catholic,
Methodist, Baptist, 7th Day Adventist, 5 Percenters,
Hindu, Sunii Muslim,

Brothers and Sisters We're just Americans.
So with that I say
"Thank You" to the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines,
for preserving my rights
to live and die for this life
and paying the ultimate price for me to be...FREE!

[*Steven*]

Yeah I had read this thread a few days ago and all those reasons seemed a little stretched, but I figured there was so much hidden from the publics' eye that anything could be possible. Also I have a bud that was in the Navy and he hated it. Nuke School.

[Mental-Wanderer]

My son is considering joining the Marines, and this topic has been on my mind a lot lately. This is a thoughtful post, and I think it is an idea that deserves further treatment. My son is an adult now and can decide for himself, but I have strong mixed feelings about his interest. I have never been in the military myself, but my brother was a career officer and my dad served in WWII.

Your first two points are an example of using statistics to lie -- or, more accurately, to over-simplify to support a point that is not directly supported by the numbers. If you enter the military and are careful in your choices, you will get education benefits -- but you have to be smart about it from the start and make the right choices. Also, if you are already of above-average intelligence, you can get training that will be quite valuable outside the military. Once, again, you have to make careful choices right from the start of your military service, and you have to already have "some smarts" to begin with. In truth, a great many of the ex-military folks who end up on the wrong side of your statistics would be there whether or not they'd done time in the military. Frankly, the military is a refuge for people who really have few other options open to them -- and there are a lot more people in this category that we like to admit.

Your third point deserves a huge post of it's own. Recruiters are carefully trained to "make the sale" and they will make any promise, play on any fear, and use any psychological tactic they can to make their quotas. If they can use racial issues to lure in people of color, they will not hesitate to do it.

Your fourth point is real hot-button issue. You shouldn't say this if you can't back it up with cold, hard statistical studies. Unquestionably, the military has been a relatively "bad place" for women in the past, but it certainly doesn't have a corner on the market for chauvinism, harassment, and sexual misconduct. A lot of lip-service has been paid recently to making things better for women in the military, but just how much better it really is should be carefully studied.

Your fifth point should be revisited. Yes, you certainly give up options when entering into the military contract, but only a complete moron would sign on the line without realizing this. The question is: do you give up your Constitutional Rights by signing? That is a much more interesting question.

Your sixth point should also be revisited. Once again, only an idiot would sign on without fully appreciating the dangers of the job. Is it unnecessarily dangerous? That is, could more be done to reduce accidents and risks? Yes, it could. During WWII, accidental (and preventable) deaths were appallingly high; thousands of men were killed in exercises and on military construction projects. Chemical weapons and tools like Agent Orange represent some of the dumbest military thinking in history. But, things are slowly improving. Is it safer than civilian life? That depends on where you are -- in both cases. Of course, the purpose of the military is to make war, and war is the most dangerous thing in human experience. But, is there anyone out there who doesn't know that the job of the military is to make war?

Your seventh reason is just emotional baiting on your part. Yes, the military has a lot of "bad practices" but it is not even close to being the worst threat the environment faces. In some instances, the military is responsible for bringing noteworthy improvements in remote areas of the world and significantly reducing pollution. I work with a guy who was in Afghanistan where a new Army water treatment facility helped clean up a river that the locals had been dumping raw waste into for generations.

Your last reason is a very good one and deserves its own treatment. Yes, the military is all about transforming young men and women into killers -- especially the Marine Corp. The psychological basis for recruitment and basic training is morally and ethically questionable in every way. I think, however, the greater good needs to be considered. Does it contribute to violent crime in the whole of society? Does it contribute to increases in mental illness in the greater world? I don't think you can make a case for that. Many ex-military people hate it and regret ever joining, but many more are happy that they did it. The overwhelming attitude seems to be: "I wouldn't trade the experience for a million dollars, but I wouldn't do it again for a million dollars."

I would now like to suggest a ninth reason: "Serving in the military is NOT necessarily an act of service to your country in the most literal sense of the word." When you join the Army and deploy to Iraq, for example, you are serving George W. Bush. Period. He made the unilateral decision to invade, and he makes the daily decision to remain there. No one can prove that "America is safer" because of this, but no one can make him stop and no one can make him change course. The US military is -- literally -- his giant plaything to do with as he wishes. The congress simply signs the check and looks the other way. The supreme court long ago legitimized this way of doing business.

Like it or not, there has been no life-or-death threat to American sovereignty since WWII. That means that every use of the military since then has been a purely political act that was solely the idea of -- and responsibility of -- the sitting president. There was no declaration of war in Korea, Lebanon, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Kuwait, Bosnia, Mozambique, Afghanistan, Iraq, or anywhere else our soldiers have been deployed. That means that America's soldiers were simply carrying out their commander-in-chief's orders, but whether or not they were actually "protecting American freedom and democracy" was, and is, completely irrelevant.

[Amaranthus]

BOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[icecreamisyummy]

dont feel like readin through all the posts, but i want to join the military.

i want to be a Nursing Officer for the Air Force.

why do i want to join?

for my country. to protect my country to help them. i am willing to risk my life to protect and help others.

thats my view on it.

joining the military for the "money" is the wrong reason.

a lot of ppl join for the wrong reason.

and yes i agree, recruiters are effin liars and do anythig just to get you to sign the papers.

but what ever good luck to everyone

[fameONE]

My son is considering joining the Marines, and this topic has been on my mind a lot lately. This is a thoughtful post, and I think it is an idea that deserves further treatment. My son is an adult now and can decide for himself, but I have strong mixed feelings about his interest. I have never been in the military myself, but my brother was a career officer and my dad served in WWII.

Your first two points are an example of using statistics to lie -- or, more accurately, to over-simplify to support a point that is not directly supported by the numbers. If you enter the military and are careful in your choices, you will get education benefits -- but you have to be smart about it from the start and make the right choices. Also, if you are already of above-average intelligence, you can get training that will be quite valuable outside the military. Once, again, you have to make careful choices right from the start of your military service, and you have to already have "some smarts" to begin with. In truth, a great many of the ex-military folks who end up on the wrong side of your statistics would be there whether or not they'd done time in the military. Frankly, the military is a refuge for people who really have few other options open to them -- and there are a lot more people in this category that we like to admit.

Your third point deserves a huge post of it's own. Recruiters are carefully trained to "make the sale" and they will make any promise, play on any fear, and use any psychological tactic they can to make their quotas. If they can use racial issues to lure in people of color, they will not hesitate to do it.

Your fourth point is real hot-button issue. You shouldn't say this if you can't back it up with cold, hard statistical studies. Unquestionably, the military has been a relatively "bad place" for women in the past, but it certainly doesn't have a corner on the market for chauvinism, harassment, and sexual misconduct. A lot of lip-service has been paid recently to making things better for women in the military, but just how much better it really is should be carefully studied.

Your fifth point should be revisited. Yes, you certainly give up options when entering into the military contract, but only a complete moron would sign on the line without realizing this. The question is: do you give up your Constitutional Rights by signing? That is a much more interesting question.

Your sixth point should also be revisited. Once again, only an idiot would sign on without fully appreciating the dangers of the job. Is it unnecessarily dangerous? That is, could more be done to reduce accidents and risks? Yes, it could. During WWII, accidental (and preventable) deaths were appallingly high; thousands of men were killed in exercises and on military construction projects. Chemical weapons and tools like Agent Orange represent some of the dumbest military thinking in history. But, things are slowly improving. Is it safer than civilian life? That depends on where you are -- in both cases. Of course, the purpose of the military is to make war, and war is the most dangerous thing in human experience. But, is there anyone out there who doesn't know that the job of the military is to make war?

Your seventh reason is just emotional baiting on your part. Yes, the military has a lot of "bad practices" but it is not even close to being the worst threat the environment faces. In some instances, the military is responsible for bringing noteworthy improvements in remote areas of the world and significantly reducing pollution. I work with a guy who was in Afghanistan where a new Army water treatment facility helped clean up a river that the locals had been dumping raw waste into for generations.

Your last reason is a very good one and deserves its own treatment. Yes, the military is all about transforming young men and women into killers -- especially the Marine Corp. The psychological basis for recruitment and basic training is morally and ethically questionable in every way. I think, however, the greater good needs to be considered. Does it contribute to violent crime in the whole of society? Does it contribute to increases in mental illness in the greater world? I don't think you can make a case for that. Many ex-military people hate it and regret ever joining, but many more are happy that they did it. The overwhelming attitude seems to be: "I wouldn't trade the experience for a million dollars, but I wouldn't do it again for a million dollars."

I would now like to suggest a ninth reason: "Serving in the military is NOT necessarily an act of service to your country in the most literal sense of the word." When you join the Army and deploy to Iraq, for example, you are serving George W. Bush. Period. He made the unilateral decision to invade, and he makes the daily decision to remain there. No one can prove that "America is safer" because of this, but no one can make him stop and no one can make him change course. The US military is -- literally -- his giant plaything to do with as he wishes. The congress simply signs the check and looks the other way. The supreme court long ago legitimized this way of doing business.

Like it or not, there has been no life-or-death threat to American sovereignty since WWII. That means that every use of the military since then has been a purely political act that was solely the idea of -- and responsibility of -- the sitting president. There was no declaration of war in Korea, Lebanon, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Kuwait, Bosnia, Mozambique, Afghanistan, Iraq, or anywhere else our soldiers have been deployed. That means that America's soldiers were simply carrying out their commander-in-chief's orders, but whether or not they were actually "protecting American freedom and democracy" was, and is, completely irrelevant.

Damn, bro. Read the entire thread before such a stoic rebuttal. And the italicization is an indication of this not being my own words.

Let him join the Marine Corps, but he needs to be mindful of his MOS if he does.

[Kontroll]

[i]Military recruiters tour the country selling a dangerous product with glamorous ads, just like tobacco companies or drug pushers. The ads promise opportunity and adventure -- but don't believe the hype.

1. Joining the military is hazardous to your education.

The military isn't a generous financial aid institution, and it isn't concerned with helping you pay for school. Two-thirds of all recruits never get any college funding from the military. Only 15% graduated with a four-year degree.

What about going to school while you're in? Many GIs report that military life leaves them too busy and exhausted -- and doesn't really make time for them to go to class.

2. Joining the military is hazardous to your future.

Joining the military is a dead end. After you've spent a few years in the military, you're 2 to 5 times more likely to be homeless than your friends who never joined. And, according to the VA, you'll probably earn less too. The skills you learn in the military will be geared to military jobs, not civilian careers; when you come out, many employers will tell you to go back to school and get some real training. As former Secretary of Defense Cheney declared, "The reason to have a military is to be prepared to fight and win wars...it's not a jobs program."

3. Joining the military is hazardous to people of color.

During the Gulf War, over 50 percent of front-line troops were people of color. Overall, over 30 percent of enlisted personnel but only 12 percent of officers are people of color, who are then disciplined and discharged under other than honorable conditions at a much higher rate than whites. When recent studies showed a slight dip in young African-Americans' (disproportionately high) interest in the military, the Pentagon reacted with a new ad campaign. They're targeting Latino youth with special Spanish-language ads. The recruiters' lethal result: tracking high achieving young people in communities of color into a dead-end, deadly occupation.

4. Joining the military is hazardous to women.

Sexual harassment and assault are a daily reality for the overwhelming majority of women in the armed forces. The VA's own figures show 90 percent of recent women veterans reporting harassment - a third of whom were raped. Despite the glossy brochures that advertise "opportunities for women," the military's inherent sexism is evident from sergeants shouting "girl!" at trainees who don't "measure up," to the intimidation of women who speak out about harassment and discrimination - not to mention military men's sexual abuse of civilian women in base communities.

5. Joining the military is hazardous to your civil rights.

If you aren't willing to give up your rights, the military isn't for you. Once you enlist, you become military property: you lose your right to come and go freely, you're ordered around 24 hours a day, and you can be punished by your command without trial or jury. Free speech rights are severely limited in the military. You can be punished for being honest about being lesbian, gay or bisexual. Worst of all even if you hate your job, you can't quit.

6. Joining the military is hazardous to your health.

The military can't guarantee you'll be alive at the end of your eight-year commitment: they can't even promise you won't be desperately ill from "mystery illnesses" like those of the Vietnam and Persian Gulf wars. Whether it's atomic testing in the 1950s, Agent Orange during the war against Vietnam, or experimental vaccines and toxic weapons in the Persian Gulf, the military shamelessly destroys the health of its personnel -- and then does its best to downplay and ignore their suffering.

7. Joining the military is hazardous to the environment.

The US military is the single largest and worst polluter in the world, from toxins at bases to nuclear-tipped missiles to the destruction of ecosystems from South Vietnam to the Persian Gulf. And in today's military, the tanks and weapons are coated with depleted uranium from toxic nuclear waste!

8. Joining the military is hazardous to our lives.

The "adventure" in the commercials is code for war, the "discipline" code for violence. The military trains recruits to employ deadly force, yet recruiters rarely discuss the dehumanizing process of basic training, the psychological costs of killing, or the horrors of war.

The ads lie because the product is lethal -- not just to you, but to all of us.

Nice way of spreading propaganda about an organization, whether you think so or not, that protects you. One reason we're such a great country is because we have an army to back it up. Obviously you have no understanding of the military life style at all. Sure, it's not right for everyone, but not everyone has the mentality to be a soldier.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. For real.

The thing is that you are a selfish person. I can clearly see that after reading this. People that sign up are no so selfish. That's why it's a voluntary army. I was never forced to join. Were you? I don't think so.

[*Steven*]

Nice way of spreading propaganda about an organization, whether you think so or not, that protects you. One reason we're such a great country is because we have an army to back it up. Obviously you have no understanding of the military life style at all. Sure, it's not right for everyone, but not everyone has the mentality to be a soldier.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. For real.

The thing is that you are a selfish person. I can clearly see that after reading this. People that sign up are no so selfish. That's why it's a voluntary army. I was never forced to join. Were you? I don't think so.

Its extremely exaggerated. Much of that took an inch and stretched it into a mile. If anything, your individual treatment as a servicemen relies on your current unit, and direct chain of command. It has nothing to do with the military or specific branch of service.

Being in the military is not hazardous to your education. You'd be surprised at the amount of free time a Marine could have. Lets be real, any substantial can be done in a couple hours, which leaves the rest of the day. Most senior enlisted and commissioned officers understand the value of education.

Hazardous to people of color, huh? The reason why the Gulf War stats reflected so many Blacks and Hispanics on the front line is because there are disgusting bonuses available in the Army. 40 grand just be an infantryman? Hell yea, I'd take that shit. Individuals from all across the country, and various parts of the world, are forced to work, interact, live and fight together; any pre-existing racism generally goes out the window. The idea of putting people of color on the frontline died with Vietnam.

There are so many employment possibilities for young veterans its ridiculous. I could do anything from go back to school on a full ride, be a contract killer for Blackwater, or work for the alphabet boys (FBI, CIA, DEA, ..PD, etc). Not to mention the jobs available for your specific MOS. The more I think about this post, the more I laugh at myself and how much of a yuppie college kid I was 2 years ago.

[fameONE]

Thanks Steven. Obviously someone reads the entire thread.

Jake, read through the thread. I've explained that the original post didn't come from me at all. I then went onto explain, almost 2 years ago, about how I was still interested in joining.

Blah, blah, blah, I'm selfish and I couldn't handle the military. Whatever, guy. I smile at you.

[Turkish]

WOW, what a load of crap...


I'm sorry have you looked around at the world or the country your living in today? i spent 7 years living in downtown atlanta where car jackings, murder, home invasions, rape, robbery, etc etc etc were nightly occurrences. as a matter of fact i used to get up for work and watch the news in the morning for traffic reports and stopped because it was simply to depressing... every morning it was the same thing. thats just atlanta which really isnt that bad compared to other US cities.

talk about risk of death? visit some of our american highways, how many people die in car crashes everyday?! i mean people die from careless crap everyday... my dad was 6 months from retirement and fell off a golf cart and lost everything due to medical expenses now he is essentially homeless and all those years of paying into social security and taxes have given him nothing! the bottom line is sh!t happens and you cant let fear stand in your way of progression.

Sure the military may not be best suited for everyone or your local Harvard grad or the likes but look around, our economy sucks. people with multiple degrees are unemployed or having to seek employment at places like Wal-Mart but dont get me started on a place like Wal-Mart, i'll go on all night.

Not everyone that joins gets deployed to a war zone and if they do, there is a good chance they signed up for it. the military is like a mini-country, as one of the posters above pointed out you can do everything from being a Nuclear engineer to cutting peoples grass... its all in what YOU choose. Sure a person that joined with an ASVAB score of 35 can't be a doctor but lets face it, you dont have to be a genius to score high on the ASVAB, that person with a 35 would most likely be a drag on society or working a dead end job that he hates, at least the military provides some options for the future -- even that guy can choose to attend college while in the service (MANY PEOPLE DO) and advance his life even further.

the mother pointed out (i like a lot of her points) but one flaw in what she said or more, what she didnt say about the treatment one receives in boot camp. i'm sorry but the general population of the world are weak, both physically and mentally. the job of a drill instructor is to break you down in both respects and rebuild yo uthe way that the military needs you... a mentally tough survivor, somebody that doesn't give up, somebody that doesn't look for every excuse they can find to not succeed and i'm not saying that everyone in the civilian world is like this but look around and you will see it's more people than not and at the very least it keeps you in good shape, something that is becoming more and more rare every day.


the military if nothing else provides people with some very important lessons that will be carried for the rest of their life. as for watching a friend get blown away in a combat zone, is that really any worse than watching your mother decay of bad health because she can't get the medical treatment required due to the policies of insurance companies? i think not but my point is that bad things happen everyday and in most cases, you have no control over it.

Sure, you may get in the military and not be doing the job you want to do, maybe you thought it would be different than it really was, maybe you thought that job in communications was going to stick you in a nice air conditioned office but instead your sitting in a communications truck outside of a war zone with the only air condition being for the equipment and not for your comfort and to make matters worse(?) you dont have the option of quitting. well thats another important lesson for you, sometimes in life we are faced with difficult situations and in a lot of times we choose the easy way out, in this situation are taught and when i say taught, i mean ingrained into your character that just because you don't like a situation means you can quit or give up... instead you "solider" through it and finish the job... i've also heard this referred to as "manning up", something that seems to have been lost in today's society.

my point in all this spam is simple: the military isnt for everyone but those who choose to serve are in most cases a whole lot better off in the end. sure there are casualties but tell that to the mother who just lost her only son or daughter due to a stray bullet from a failed drive-by shooting... that wasn't a war zone, it was a residential area in the united states. or the husband that lost his wife or child in a car accident or car jacking... shit happens! i really hate to sound unsympathetic because my heart goes out to all those people but it does happen and happen everyday.in a lot of ways, civilian life isnt much safer than that of a military life... at the very least in the military your trained to deal with situations like this and your given a rifle and surrounded by people who also are trained to protect and serve (i dont mean the 5-O LOL).

[Turkish]

oh and one more thing... i had a brother that was in the marines and he didnt accomplish a damn thing when it came to his education but that was by his choice. his MOS was infantry and when he got out his first job was being a mover or something. but do you know what he did with his free time while he was in? he didnt have time to go to school, instead he spent his time getting drunk and torn down with his marine buddies. taking into account the time it takes to get drunk, the time spent having meaningless drunk conversations about absolutely nothing of value, the time spent buying the drink, and then the recovery time... well damn, thats a class or two right there especially considering the availability of online classes and in many cases, there are schools right near base or classrooms on ship - sometimes major universities or at the very least a community college.

my point is you cant take one persons word of not having time to go to school or the fact they didnt accomplish anything in their time in the service because they weren't able. just like in the civilian world, you do have free time and it's up to you how you CHOOSE to use that time - attending classes or getting torn down drunk, getting tattoos, and visiting strip clubs... Lol in all hoensty they all have their appeal but everything in moderation =)

the other thing to consider to is that the military is a fast track to saving money, given you arent getting drunk, getting tattos and spending your pay at the local strip club. the time spent in the military you could be investing in assets or saving money... not as though you have much in the way of living expenses, even if you CHOOSE to live off base, the government will jsut give you more money to help cover it.

[fameONE]

Turkish; you're a goddamn idiot.

Read the entire thread before you bump it.

[BamBamBoogie]

I personally feel as though the military has some benefits, but it also is a bit unconstitutional. Now I know if you are reading this you're thinking, "How the heck is the MILITARY unconstitutional?" I know it helps to protect our country and it ensures a certain level of safety. However, the military discriminates against homosexuals. Some argue that there is a "Don't ask, don't tell policy." This is true and there are any who are comfortable with this. However, isn't it unfair for those who wish to protect our country, cannot even openly express themselves. If they do they will be kicked out of the military. So under the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy, they must keep their expressions to themselves, which is in violation of the right which is guaranteed by the 1st amendment of the constitution. By not allowing freedom of speech and expression of their sexuality, then you are violating a right that everyone deserves to have.

Now believe me, I am not against the military. I actually feel as though the military is a great organization which protects citizens. However, I do believe that some of the ideologies should be reconsidered.

[fameONE]

I personally feel as though the military has some benefits, but it also is a bit unconstitutional. Now I know if you are reading this you're thinking, "How the heck is the MILITARY unconstitutional?" I know it helps to protect our country and it ensures a certain level of safety. However, the military discriminates against homosexuals. Some argue that there is a "Don't ask, don't tell policy." This is true and there are any who are comfortable with this. However, isn't it unfair for those who wish to protect our country, cannot even openly express themselves. If they do they will be kicked out of the military. So under the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy, they must keep their expressions to themselves, which is in violation of the right which is guaranteed by the 1st amendment of the constitution. By not allowing freedom of speech and expression of their sexuality, then you are violating a right that everyone deserves to have.

Now believe me, I am not against the military. I actually feel as though the military is a great organization which protects citizens. However, I do believe that some of the ideologies should be reconsidered.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[BamBamBoogie]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Really? I thought for sure I did. Why don't you point out where my points were invalid.

[fameONE]

Your personal rights and freedoms as a human being aren't stripped from you because you're part of a military branch of service. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," is about protecting that individual. It's widely accepted for a woman to be a lesbian in the military, specifically in the comabt oriented branches of service. But for a man to come out of the closet and put his business out there, he puts himself at risk. He then becomes a safety hazard in his own right. People are people no matter where you go. On one hand, you'll have guys who don't give two shits about someone else's sexual orientation, but then you have those who see it as a problem. In order to protect that individual from hate crimes (which have happened in the past), he has the freedom to do what he pleases behind closed doors, outside of a military setting.

[BamBamBoogie]

Your personal rights and freedoms as a human being aren't stripped from you because you're part of a military branch of service. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," is about protecting that individual. It's widely accepted for a woman to be a lesbian in the military, specifically in the comabt oriented branches of service. But for a man to come out of the closet and put his business out there, he puts himself at risk. He then becomes a safety hazard in his own right. People are people no matter where you go. On one hand, you'll have guys who don't give two shits about someone else's sexual orientation, but then you have those who see it as a problem. In order to protect that individual from hate crimes (which have happened in the past), he has the freedom to do what he pleases behind closed doors, outside of a military setting.

You make a great point. It is wise for the military to make efforts to protect Homosexuals and Bisexuals from hate attacks. The act prohibits any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing his or her sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces. This is a violation of the first amendment which clearly gives the freedom of speech. Although it protects them, it also hurts them. Shouldn't the "Don't ask Don't tell" policy be an option for each individual. Certain people may feel as though they cannot openly express themselves and/or feel as though they don't need any protection.

[brooklyneast05]

this is a clash between ideals and reality though i think. ideally...everyone should be able to be whatever sexual orientation they want openly. that's a nice thought, but it's not a reality and until it is then it's a safety hazard. i duno, i just think you're not bridging the gap between what it should be and what it is. no matter how much it should be one way that doesn't change the fact it's not there yet. with that in mind i don't consider it really a "violation". i think it's a violation in theory, but in terms of reality..not so much.

[BamBamBoogie]

this is a clash between ideals and reality though i think. ideally...everyone should be able to be whatever sexual orientation they want openly. that's a nice thought, but it's not a reality and until it is then it's a safety hazard. i duno, i just think you're not bridging the gap between what it should be and what it is. no matter how much it should be one way that doesn't change the fact it's not there yet. with that in mind i don't consider it really a "violation". i think it's a violation in theory, but in terms of reality..not so much.

Im unclear as to how it isn't reality. The "Dadt" policy is currently in effect which is reality. It prohibits open expression of homsexual relations, therefore violating the first amendment, which is reality.

[brooklyneast05]

i don't see what you don't get. everyone running around expressing their sexuality without any consequence or threat isn't reality.

bradon just said that

but for a man to come out of the closet and put his business out there, he puts himself at risk. He then becomes a safety hazard in his own right. People are people no matter where you go. On one hand, you'll have guys who don't give two shits about someone else's sexual orientation, but then you have those who see it as a problem. In order to protect that individual from hate crimes (which have happened in the past), he has the freedom to do what he pleases behind closed doors, outside of a military setting.

[BamBamBoogie]

i don't see what you don't get. everyone running around expressing their sexuality without any consequence or threat isn't reality.

bradon just said that

Of course it isn't. There's always consequence for something. However, we shouldn't take away a right to freely express one's self just because there is a threat. Barack Obama was threatened. Should he have kept it to himself that he wanted to be president? It was a choice that he made to remain to be open about a desire to be president despite threats. He's okay right? Same should go for the military

[brooklyneast05]

i don't think it makes sense to compare the heavily security surrounded obama to a normal solider.

if i was gay and in the military i'd go by a don't ask don't tell policy anyway becuase my sexuality would be an irrelevant piece of information in the first place, just sayin.

[BamBamBoogie]

i don't think it makes sense to compare the heavily security surrounded obama to a normal solider.

if i was gay and in the military i'd go by a don't ask don't tell policy anyway becuase my sexuality would be an irrelevant piece of information in the first place, just sayin.

Im not comparing the security, Im comparing the choice of being open with added security. Obama didn't want extra security after the threats because he knows that the world is a threatful place. Just like a gun, it protects you, but its still an option. You can only help those who want to help themselves. Im not sure if this makes sense because Im really tired. I just like to debate.

[fameONE]

Congress, not the military is solely responsible for the DADT policy. The Uniformed Code of Military Justice reflects that policy. When it comes down to it, you can't be mad at the one enforcing the rules when they didn't come up with it in the first place.

Take it up with Congress.

Personal Opinion:

Open homosexual relationships have no place in a military setting; male or female. Public displays of affection for heterosexual couples, while in a military setting, is frowned upon. Why? It's not professional. If my roommate, or one of my Marines were gay, I'd rather him not let that cat out of the bag. Keep your personal life, personal.

[Detective]

Wow! That sure got me thinking twice before going into the the Army.

[fameONE]

Wow! That sure got me thinking twice before going into the the Army.

What did?

[karmakiller]

Lol, Pedro, I like how you posted that after all the "being openly gay" talk.

[Detective]

Dee, I didn't notice there was any gay talk! Haha. I just simply responded to the topic.

[karmakiller]

Hahaha, that's why I had to point it out.

[Detective]

Well thank you for the heads up then Dee!

[fameONE]

Well thank you for the heads up then Dee!

Disregard the main post, man. It was some shit I found on the internet. Obviously, it had no bearing on my decision because three years later, I'm in the military. Go figure.

[applejaxkz]

You shouldn't be allowed in the debate forum.

Hah

[darkone4481]

I decided to join the Navy this week. I am following in my parents footsteps in taking on greater responibilities for myself and serving my country. I am gaurenteed a job in a field full of people with similar interests as myself, and I get all of my college payed for.

The OP says that people usually don't get a chance to go to school while in the military. Where are you meeting these people? Both of my parents went to the Navy and earned their Masters degree's while serving.

The military is a place where you can meet new people and see the world while getting payed at the same time... what is wrong with that?

[sixfive]

I decided to join the Navy this week. I am following in my parents footsteps in taking on greater responibilities for myself and serving my country. I am gaurenteed a job in a field full of people with similar interests as myself, and I get all of my college payed for.

The OP says that people usually don't get a chance to go to school while in the military. Where are you meeting these people? Both of my parents went to the Navy and earned their Masters degree's while serving.

The military is a place where you can meet new people and see the world while getting payed at the same time... what is wrong with that?

Another one who didn't read the thread. READ BEFORE POSTING DAWG

[espressive]

i'm not too familiar with the military stuff... but i was wondering if being part of the medical staff would be any different? actually, i just want any additional information about the medical stuff. thanks!

[fameONE]

i'm not too familiar with the military stuff... but i was wondering if being part of the medical staff would be any different? actually, i just want any additional information about the medical stuff. thanks!

If you join the Army, expect to be deployed for, at least, a year each time.

Join the Navy, be a Corpsman, work with a Marine unit. Get out after 4 years, and there's no need to go to Nursing School.

[turkishdog]

1. Mongomery GI Bill. Invest $100 a month for a year, you will get $36k towards college. Invest for a extra 4 months and get $48k towards college. Once you step foot in bootcamp, your earnin colleg credits. Anytime they train you yur gettin college credits.

2. Geared towards military job? Do you mean government job? This is false. Right now my job is a eletronic technician. I'm pretty sure I can easily find a cilivian job once i leave the service. I know a guy who lefted the service after he did his 5 years. Got a job in less then a week and is gettin paid $150k/yr. Doubt anyone can earn that much straight out of college without no type of experience what soever. You can go Nuke, leave after your 6 years and EASILY make $200k a year.

3. Recruiters does not target a specific race. You either walk into their office and request some info or request them online.

4. There are more sexual assualt and harrassment on women outside the service.

5. They tell you what you are giving up before you sign on the dotted line and say yur oath. If your scared to lose your rights, dont join at all. Simple as that.

6. Last time i check its dangerous to work at construction sites, hospitals, work in law enforcement. Its a dangerous world we live in. Get use to it.

7. Too late to save our planet now. Getting rid of the military wont accomplish squat.

8. Heh. Dehumanizing? Its more like a mental game they play. A mental game where they weed out the weak and strong. If you cant keep your area clean or follow directions, who would trust you in handling missles or drivin the boat? Sure they chew you out. Its like your parents yellin at you only 10x worse. Yes soldiers are trained to kill but that doesnt mean they run around shooting everything that moves. They only shoot when they are endangered. Its either kill or get killed.

Right now im stationed in Groton, CT. Im still in school and still will be for the next year. Im getting paid just to learn.

You da man. ;D

[Be-Faithful]

Ya'll should stop your humanism. It's more ridiculous than cool you know.

[mipadi]

Ya'll should stop your humanism. It's more ridiculous than cool you know.

What makes you say that?

[Stuckie]

i'm not too familiar with the military stuff... but i was wondering if being part of the medical staff would be any different? actually, i just want any additional information about the medical stuff. thanks!

There are a bunch of Med MOSs in the Army. I never considered the medical field so I only know what my old roomate told me. He said its a pretty laid back field depending on your unit. You can talk to a recruiter and ask about med jobs. But be careful, cause recruiters will push you to join.

[TOOLBAGSIRNUTS]

I joined the Marines and I'm pretty chill with my decision

My unit's pretty laid-back, we're just a bunch of techies sitting around until we start deploying for Afghanistan (which equals hazard pay which equals more money). I get 80 grand for college when I leave so that's not too shabby either

Also, sorry for volunteering

[fameONE]

I joined the Marines and I'm pretty chill with my decision

My unit's pretty laid-back, we're just a bunch of techies sitting around until we start deploying for Afghanistan (which equals hazard pay which equals more money). I get 80 grand for college when I leave so that's not too shabby either

Also, sorry for volunteering

Sup Devil.
I smell yellow paint!

Haha, I kid, I kid.

[Stuckie]

...we're just a bunch of techies sitting around until we start deploying for Afghanistan (which equals hazard pay which equals more money).

Is the Hazard pay the same in Iraq as it is in Afghanistan now? Or do they still get less in Iraq?

Sup Devil.
I smell yellow paint!

Haha, I kid, I kid.

Yuck!!! Marines.
Im just playing. Not really.

[fameONE]

Is the Hazard pay the same in Iraq as it is in Afghanistan now? Or do they still get less in Iraq?

It's not any less. If it is, then it's news to me.

Yuck!!! Marines.
Im just playing. Not really.

We're conditioned to believe that the Marine Corps is superior to other branches of service. I must admit that I agree.

[hypnotique]

Is the Hazard pay the same in Iraq as it is in Afghanistan now? Or do they still get less in Iraq?
Yuck!!! Marines.
Im just playing. Not really.

I have never met a decent marine that was sane or not a complete douche bag alcoholic/ nut


Can someone please prove to be otherwise?!

[brooklyneast05]

^brandon?

[hypnotique]

^brandon?

Oh i thought he was in the Navy...

[TOOLBAGSIRNUTS]

We sure are a department of the Navy

[fameONE]

Oh i thought he was in the Navy...

[Stuckie]

Oh i thought he was in the Navy...

Minus 5

[medic]

Well I am going to answer them via experience now.....

1. Joining the military is hazardous to your education.

It all depends on your motivation, you don't have to give up your education to join the military. I joined for money for my higher education, and I am doing online classes right now while I am serving my time (2 years).

2. Joining the military is hazardous to your future.

Since I am living life day by day, I have no idea how my service is going to impact my future. As of now, I love what I do. I do plan on going to law school after 4ish years in the service. You have to decide if you want to make your service 20 years or 2-4 years. It's your decision.

3. Joining the military is hazardous to people of color.

I am white so I don't know anything about this.

4. Joining the military is hazardous to women.

I have a penis so I also lack knowledge in this department.

5. Joining the military is hazardous to your civil rights.

It all depends on your sergeants/officers. I keep my mouth shut so I can get promoted, but I know sergeants and other NCO's that say what they want whenever they want. You don't all the sudden become a silent person. You just need to know when to say it, who to say it around and the context of what you say.

6. Joining the military is hazardous to your health.

I get free health care, if I need a perscription filled I walk inside the hospital and show the pharmacy my ID, I get brand name medications for free. Most of the people here don't realize what it costs for health care because they still piggy back off mom and dad.

7. Joining the military is hazardous to the environment.

You get in a car everyday, we do some crazy shit, but I can tell you 100% what we do gets cleaned up by privates.

8. Joining the military is hazardous to our lives.

Yea, it is. We understand that and live with that fear everyday. I haven't been to war (I have a desk job) so I can't tell you how it feels to be in a extremely dangerous situation. On that note, I would be willing to give my life for the people around me, once you live with people like yourself (AKA your battles) you would do anything to keep them alive.

[Stuckie]

1. Joining the military is hazardous to your education.

It all depends on your motivation, you don't have to give up your education to join the military. I joined for money for my higher education, and I am doing online classes right now while I am serving my time (2 years).

2 YEARS?!?!?! They got me for 4. Im killing everyone at MEPS.

2. Joining the military is hazardous to your future.

Since I am living life day by day, I have no idea how my service is going to impact my future. As of now, I love what I do. I do plan on going to law school after 4ish years in the service. You have to decide if you want to make your service 20 years or 2-4 years. It's your decision.

The way the economy is sucking, I might do 20. Its like getting paid to play "Simon Says".

3. Joining the military is hazardous to people of color.

I am white so I don't know anything about this.

Im black. The military isnt hazardous to my health. Iron Mikes are.

4. Joining the military is hazardous to women.

I have a penis so I also lack knowledge in this department.

All the females in my unit outrank me. (There is only one female though)

5. Joining the military is hazardous to your civil rights.

It all depends on your sergeants/officers. I keep my mouth shut so I can get promoted, but I know sergeants and other NCO's that say what they want whenever they want. You don't all the sudden become a silent person. You just need to know when to say it, who to say it around and the context of what you say.

Maybe the military is hazardous to my civil rights

6. Joining the military is hazardous to your health.

I get free health care, if I need a perscription filled I walk inside the hospital and show the pharmacy my ID, I get brand name medications for free. Most of the people here don't realize what it costs for health care because they still piggy back off mom and dad.

I dont even remember the last time I paid for a hospital bill. WOO-HOO!!!!!

7. Joining the military is hazardous to the environment.

You get in a car everyday, we do some crazy shit, but I can tell you 100% what we do gets cleaned up by privates.

Yeah. They always got me cleaning sh*t.

8. Joining the military is hazardous to our lives.

Yea, it is. We understand that and live with that fear everyday. I haven't been to war (I have a desk job) so I can't tell you how it feels to be in a extremely dangerous situation. On that note, I would be willing to give my life for the people around me, once you live with people like yourself (AKA your battles) you would do anything to keep them alive.

Breaking News from PFC Rhodes all the way from Iraq: "Iraq is easy. Afghanistan is hard. Either way it goes, I get tax free money. Army Strong. HOOAH!!!"

[fameONE]

You could have been a man and joined the Marine Corps.

I kid, I kid.

Honestly, unless you're willing to become a full fledged, heartless, sociopath; I'm sure you did what's best for you.

[karmakiller]

I have never met a decent marine that was sane or not a complete douche bag alcoholic/ nut
Can someone please prove to be otherwise?!

Eyyyy now, my brother is a Marine.

[Impressive]

government be ripping you a new one... with your pay...so small... i laugh at 's in uniform... they think because they wear a uniform... they are better... when in fact a person who isn't wearing one makes 3 times as much... true the uniform gets you more pussy.. but it also get's you a bullet in your ass killed.... think about it....

[fameONE]

government be ripping you a new one... with your pay...so small... i laugh at 's in uniform... they think because they wear a uniform... they are better... when in fact a person who isn't wearing one makes 3 times as much... true the uniform gets you more pussy.. but it also get's you a bullet in your ass killed.... think about it....

That has to be the dumbest thing I've heard anyone ever say about the military. It shows how little you know.

[Stuckie]

government be ripping you a new one... with your pay...so small... i laugh at 's in uniform... they think because they wear a uniform... they are better... when in fact a person who isn't wearing one makes 3 times as much... true the uniform gets you more pussy.. but it also get's you a bullet in your ass killed.... think about it....

The pay isn't great, but its guaranteed. So if the economy takes a dive, the people without uniforms will be assed out while people like me have a guaranteed pay, a place to live, food to eat, and clothes on our back.

*Looks at ass*
Im in Iraq. No bullet yet.

[fameONE]

*Looks at ass*
Im in Iraq. No bullet yet.

I've been out here since August. What FOB are you on?

Firefights are short-lived and overrated. Getting to a decent vantage point, and catching someone in your scope is what's really good. The only real concern I have out here are IEDs.

[imano]

Murder can never be justified.

[fameONE]

Murder can never be justified.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you implying that a combat kill is the equivalent to murder?

[Stuckie]

I've been out here since August. What FOB are you on?

Firefights are short-lived and overrated. Getting to a decent vantage point, and catching someone in your scope is what's really good. The only real concern I have out here are IEDs.

FOB Hammer. This place sucks. Im not concerned about IEDs anymore. We got those MRAPs, and we haven't lost a single one yet.

Murder can never be justified.

I think you support terrorism.

[Tsukuyomi-No-Mok...]

Well murder can't be justified that is true but how do you explain it in a case where stuck fighting for your life.
as in
either u kill him or he kills you?
is it justified then?

[karmakiller]

You don't even have to begin to think of how killing someone in combat is justifiable. It isn't murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with a state of mind known as "malice aforethought". Don't use words to describe something if you do not know the definition or power of that word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder