know your friends well, but your enemies better, why the united states will fall Options

[sadolakced acid]

The United States of America.

the promise land?
land of milk and honey?
land of the mountain of gold?

maybe.

yet, like all empires, doomed to fail.

why, you ask? mayhaps it's politics. mayhaps it's terrorists. or mayhaps it's cultural.

So says the old joke, that people who only know one language are americans. This may be true for some, but with more and more high schools requiring foriegn languages, this is slowly changing.

yet to what purpose? sure, we might learn the culture of the romans, the french, the spanish (and mexicans), and the germans. but will this help us in the world?

if we consider the world as a whole, what is the greatest threat to the United States of America? Is it russia? they seem to be fading from the stage, their act over, exiting stage left.

is it the middle east? certainly they are the source for terrorists. Yet what do terrorists do? they kill people. They terrorize. yet this is not what kills a nation. Terrorist's actions unify America, they make it stronger.

then what is the threat?

let's look at recent events.

george bush annouces that the united states will return to the moon by 2019.
and china anounces that they will put a man on the moon by 2018.

a brilliant display of one-up-manship if it's pulled off.

this is a nation that has vast potential, and they are begining to tap it. Sure, there are growing pains, but it means they are growing.

so let's consider this for a second. most every nation, china included, teach thier children to speak english.

To do this, they read american books, learn from american teachers, and watch american movies.

American culture is exported to other countries. yet these countries don't completely ignore thier own culture. the two- american culture and local culture- coexist.

jump to america.

a country where youths make jokes based on racial stereotypes from 100 years ago.

a country where most children's knowledge of chinese is how to say a few bad words.

a country where other cultures are not valued, or studied.

let us look to the future. Is the united states going to be able to sell things to china? not anymore, not with our limited understanding of thier culture.

but they, on the other, they have hundreds of thousands of college graduates who know how to operate in a western buisness world, who know what americans want, and can give it to them for much cheaper.

So what, you ask. Why should it matter?

the answer is staring you in the face. America dominates because america innovates. the internet. automobiles. aeroplanes. all created here.

so what happens when america loses it's innovation? then it's military weapons cease to be the worlds best. It's industry ceases to do things others cannot. It's commerce soon depends on someone else. and it's dominence-- it's dominence fades.

and thus the empire falls.

[vash1530]

of course the fall of america will happen but most empires stay around for a couple 1000 yrs so i cant see us going down the pipe anytime soon. btw what does that have to do with the title? im not making the connection.

[sadolakced acid]

americans don't know thier enemies.

but our enemies know us all too well.

therefore, we will fall, in the next 50 years.
at least, from power.

the government will fall not long after that.

[*kryogenix*]

I'm sure the CIA knows plenty about our enemies.

[*mipadi*]

Your portrayal of our limited knowledge of eastern culture is a bit inaccurate. At my university, I know a lot of people--numbering easily into the hundreds--that are either from an East Asian nation, spent much of their lives in an East Asian nation, trace their ancestors back to an East Asian nation and know a lot about their heritage, and/or are actively studying Chinese or Japanese. The number of people I personally know who are actively studying Chinese or Japanese is easily into the dozens. So there are definitely a fair number of people in the US who do study East Asian cultures, especially Japanese and Chinese. Even I, a computer science student, have taken courses in Japanese, and I am also actively involved in numerous Asian culture clubs on campus. In fact, our largest Asian awareness group--whose mission is to promote the study of Asian cultures--is one of the largest clubs at our campus. And China is rapidly growing as a study-abroad option for American students.[1] (A good friend of mine is studying in China next semester, and another friend of mine just got back from China this semester.)

It's true that at the high school level, most studies of culture seems to focus primarily on western cultures, but that's not entirely true of the collegiate level--there are a lot of Chinese studying going on at American universities. Does that mean that America's position is not precipitous? Not at all. To remain "on top", it certainly is important for America and American students to realize the importance of countries such as China in the world community, and it is important for America to emphasize the importance of Chinese studies. Of course, China shouldn't be the only focus; the Middle East, too, is important--terrorism is unfortunately a threat to the balance of power. Russia, too, is still an important player in world politics, as is European nations such as France and Germany. Germany is even more important due to its status as a major trading partner with the US. So there are a lot of countries, certainly China included, that the US could benefit from studying, and American students should be encouraged to study these important cultures.

[ComradeRed]

Also losing primacy isn't the same as collapse--I mean just look at the British, they aren't number one dog any more but they'res till doing fine.

[edit]
removed double post

This post has been edited by kryogenix: Dec 28 2005, 11:47 AM

[sadolakced acid]

james, that's the CIA tho. the populus needs to know the enemy as well.

michael, sure, there may be study on the collegate level. but that's not everyone, and it's not as widespread as thier knowledge of us.

for instance, if you went to china and were supposed to take an important buisnessman to dinner, would you know how to act? they would know how to act if they came to america to convince a buisnessman to invest in them.

and minda, as far as losing dominance- if dominance is lost to eastern nations, then the effects will be much greater than that or britian's losing dominance.

loss of dominance to china will mean a cold war, and we will lose. we will have to take the lower role, which we're not at all prepared to do. Britian thrives, why? becuase thier culture is similar to ours, and we're dominate right now.

if china thrives, then who gains? all the other east asia countries- japan and korea in particular.

[innovation]

Justin? Why were you up so late?

Is it really the best policy for the US to label China an "enemy", considering its rapid growth both economically and politically? Methinks not. Mayhaps the US should begin adapting more to this globalizing world, but it shouldn't motivate its public through "fear of collapse." Actually, I was just talking to a student from China about this at a Christmas Eve party. The Chinese public already hates US policies, mostly because of Bush. Creating this fear among Americans is not the way to go. Bad diplomacy.

Besides, the US has already been adopting somewhat--the College Board is administering its first AP Chinese exam in May 2007. And Tufts University has an entire institute that promotes studying abroad in China. It's happening already; people are realizing the need to learn about China.

Sorry, I just had to get some Justinisms in there, like "mayhaps" and "methinks". :D

edit--

I just realized that I'm from Washington, DC, and you're from Alabama. And we're in high school, while Michael is in college. Perhaps our location and environment offer different perspectives of the US's efforts to globalize?

*TOK MOMENT*

And I also just noticed my signature. It feels very much at home in this thread.

[*mipadi*]

michael, sure, there may be study on the collegate level.  but that's not everyone, and it's not as widespread as thier knowledge of us.

for instance, if you went to china and were supposed to take an important buisnessman to dinner, would you know how to act?  they would know how to act if they came to america to convince a buisnessman to invest in them.

There are two things I believe you may be overestimating. One is the extent of American studies in China, which could be more than the extent of the Chinese studies in the US, but significantly more? There are a lot of scholarly Chinese studying America, but is the typical Chinese person scrutinizing America? Is the typical Chinese peasant in a village far away from any city studying American culture? And more importantly, are they doing so any more than the typical US citizen in a small town in, say, Iowa?

I'd certainly agree that the typical corn farmer in Iowa, or auto worker in Detroit, does not know that much about China or Chinese culture. I'd also be willing to bet that the typical Chinese peasant is not an expert on American culture. And I'd also be willing to bet that, in your illustration, these facts do not really matter. They don't have an active role in any international political game. The corn farmer doesn't directly sell his crops abroad; the auto worker doesn't export the hubcap he riveted to another country; the Chinese peasant doesn't send his crops to America. My point, of course, is not that the study of international culture is not important at all; rather, it's not important that everyone have a good knowledge of Chinese culture, because (relatively speaking) only a few Chinese scholars, politicians, and businessmen have a strong knowledge of American culture. In other words, it's certainly important that we have some of our best and brightest minds in politics, business, and other international sectors studying China, but it's not vital to America's success that everyone does so.

Would I personally know how to interact with a Chinese businessman, should I need to take him to dinner? No, I would not. I don't know a word of Chinese. I'm not an expert in Chinese etiquette. But the key here is that I am unlikely to be in a situation in which I need to greet a Chinese businessman and convince him to invest in a company. I'm not a businessman. I'm not studying business. I don't plan on running that aspect of a business. So there's no need to know Chinese etiquette. Now, it makes more a more well-rounded and knowledgeable person to know a bit about Chinese culture. It might help a lot if I school myself in Chinese politics. It's certainly a good thing to know about the status of China in the world community and how that affects me. Maybe someday I'll have to interact with the Chinese. If and when that day comes, I'll likely be able to pick up enough Chinese etiquette to deal with such a businessman. But it's not my role to study the details of China now, as I have no interest in having political or business interactions with China.

The one thing that a post-secondary education teaches a student is that one can't be an expert in everything. The key to America's success is encouraging the study of China, but leaving it up to those who have a direct interest in it, and letting others focus on what they do best. I'd rather have the Iowa farmer know a lot about growing corn and spend most of his time doing it, than spend most of his time studying China.

Do we need more education, and earlier education, about China? Yes. Should the US encourage students--of all ages--to study China? Yes. But it's not a bad thing if only a relatively small number of bright, ambitious people who interact with China know a lot about China. If some guy in a field or on an assembly line that never interacts with China is not an expert in China, I hardly think that spells doomsday for the US.

[sadolakced acid]

up so late mindy? doesn't seem late at all, comparitively.

and i did notice the justinisms, as you call them, in your post. :-)


the label of china as an enemy is quite reactionary. they are, at most, rivals. yet, rivals do defeat each other.

however- for the sake of better effect, it is more efficient to label china "the enemy".

sure, mayhaps chinese do hate the US and US policies because of bush.

but if it were not part of a joke, would anyone know who the president of china is? or who the PM is? Not many people know that either, even with the joke. And do many people know china's policy?
methinks not.

yet chinese people are ready to hate the US becuase of bush and his policies?

that somewhat proves my point, doesn't it?

mayhaps it is our differing environments that lead to different observations. but all are representative of a part of america.




sure michael, i may be overestimating those things. but that's not the only knowledge i'm talking about.

chinese students are regularily taught english. for american students, chinese is usually an elective, if it's offered at all (on the high school level).

and michael, you may not need to talk to chinese buisnessmen, but what if someone in china created a programming language based on chinese? and what if this became a popular programming language? improbable, sure. but impossible?

[innovation]

I agree that the US government should encourage the American public to globalize itself, Justin. I just don't believe that they should use fear as a motive.

[sadolakced acid]

because in the words of a wise man

fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

mayhaps the use of fear is not ideal. alright. i'm not the government though, and using fear is a nice way of getting a nice debate out of everyone.

[innovation]

Justin.

[sadolakced acid]

mindy.

you know yoda's the cooliest.

[*mipadi*]

sure michael, i may be overestimating those things.  but that's not the only knowledge i'm talking about.

chinese students are regularily taught english.  for american students, chinese is usually an elective, if it's offered at all (on the high school level).

It might be beneficial to offer Chinese to more high school students, although I hardly think it would be warranted to mandate the teaching of Chinese--China is an important nation, but there are other important nations out there, cultures that we might miss if we focus exclusively on China. Furthermore, I would point out that, since college is essentially where people receive training for future careers, and American college students are actively studying Chinese, China, and Chinese culture, we're not completely in dire straits at this point. Interest in China has been growing rapidly as of late. China is an important country to watch, and an important country to learn about, but we can't focus all our attention on China, or we'll miss other important nations and cultures, as well.

and michael, you may not need to talk to chinese buisnessmen, but what if someone in china created a programming language based on chinese?  and what if this became a popular programming language?  improbable, sure.  but impossible?

This specific case is highly unlikely. China's tech industry is mainly predicated on the emulation, replication, or outright piracy of American hardware and software. Of course, Chinese engineers could conceivably come up with a new design in order to reduce their reliance on American goods--this is currently happening with Red Flag Linux, for example. And there are Chinese programming languages, such as Chinse BASIC. There are, in fact, several other non-English programming languages, including Fjölnir, Lexico, Plankalkül, Rapira, and var'aq, as well as numerous esoteric languages not based on any spoken or written language in the world. However, given that English is the most widely spoken language in the tech industry (Mandarin is, of course, the most spoken primary language in the world, but taking into account the number of people who speak English as a second or third language, and the fact that most Chinese are not programmers, English dominates in the industry), it is likely that any language created that was based on Chinese would be ported to an English-based language fairly quickly, or not used widely outside of China.

If that were not the case, then I suppose I'd have to learn such a language. But this brings up my earlier point: why concentrate on an area that might become an issue, and neglect areas that are issues? I'm much better of concentrating on languages that are widely used, and concentrating on technologies that are likely to be used, rather than concentrating on a technology that doesn't exist and isn't likely to exist.

[sadolakced acid]

of course, don't make it manditory.

but consider; more people in china speak english than people in america.

numbers wise.

[vash1530]

^i dont think that matters in the long run. will our lack of knowledge on chinese culture be our downfall? I doubt it. If anything it will be china's fast growing economy.

[sadolakced acid]

you're thinking to loosing economic dominance.

and yet, thier booming economy has something to do with what i'm saying.

but i'm saying it will go further from there because of our lack of knowledge.

[Dragonfly_babe]

With the fall of every great nation a new one is born. This problem does not only apply to America but countries everywhere.

[Spirited Away]

but consider; more people in china speak english than people in america.

For the simple reason that Americans own more variety (and easy access) as to what languages they can learn.

I'm not sure about China, but in comparison to Vietnam language wise, more Vietnamese know English than Americans know Vietnamese, proportionally speaking. This is because, again, English courses are easily accessible and are more popular compared to... oh German or Spanish, thus, more Vietnamese learn English as a second language.

[*kryogenix*]

you're thinking to loosing economic dominance.

and yet, thier booming economy has something to do with what i'm saying.

but i'm saying it will go further from there because of our lack of knowledge.

I believe I read somewhere that Swedish students are better than American students at English.

OMG THE SWEDISH ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER!

[sadolakced acid]

For the simple reason that Americans own more variety (and easy access) as to what languages they can learn.

I'm not sure about China, but in comparison to Vietnam language wise, more Vietnamese know English than Americans know Vietnamese, proportionally speaking. This is because, again, English courses are easily accessible and are more popular compared to... oh German or Spanish, thus, more Vietnamese learn English as a second language.

i'm not talking percentages.

i'm talking sheer numbers.

there are more chinese who speak english than there are people in america.

I believe I read somewhere that Swedish students are better than American students at English.

OMG THE SWEDISH ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER!

but the sweeds have neither the numbers nor the economy to do anything.

[Spirited Away]

i'm not talking percentages.

i'm talking sheer numbers.

there are more chinese who speak english than there are people in america.

But if we don't talk percentages, your observation would be skewed. I mean if all 1.2+ billion Chinese can speak English, then of course they would outnumber Americans even if all Americans can speak Chinese. And yes, there would be more Chinese who can speak English in China than there are Americans who can speak Chinese in America because, as Michael have mentioned, we focus not only on China but other countries that are of import to us. But you know, I'm not so sure about this at all. Is it possible to get some stats involved to see if your observation is true?

[*disco infiltrator*]

More Chinese people speak English than there are Americans because THERE'S WAY MORE PEOPLE IN CHINA THAN THERE ARE IN AMERICA. The fact is not surprising. Most other industrialized countries learn English from childhood, because ya know what? It's a universal language. It's used worldwide.

How in the world do you figure that the fact that at least half the world speaks English will lead to America's downfall? Of course they know more about our culture. Our culture is spread throughout the world. All of our products are sold in most every other country...Duh other countries know about us.

[sadolakced acid]

but that's exactly why empires fall.

take rome. They rose because of thier military technology- thier roads, their weapons. Yet when they became powerful, thier enemies aquired this technology, yet the romans did not aquire knowledge of all thier enemy's technology, it was impossible.

this is why the barbarian tribes were able to sack rome. Sure, the declining leadership of rome, etc. were to blame for not correcting the problem, etc. but the actual blow was because of thier lack of knowledge.

of course, right now, the US guards it's military technology. But consumer products- computers, cars, etc. those, the chinese are manufacturing.

it's the same principle. the chinese will be able to make american products and chinese products, while americans will make american products.

[*kryogenix*]

Aren't Chinese products inferior in quality? Why would American manufacturers want to make Chinese products when their products are better?

[sadolakced acid]

currently inferior in quality, sure. but they'll overtake us eventually.

[stryker76]

I havent yet read everything that everyone has posted yet but i do have one thing to add as i eat my Cookies and Milk

1. Americans do not learn about other cultures because they choose not to. Once many kids hit high school that have a plan on what they want to do after school. although it may change from time to time it doesnt usually involve what they have to do if they have a meeting with a business many from China, India, or any other country. The little details are not all that important at that time in there life. But those that end up goin in to fields where they must meet with people from a different culture often do some homework before goin to these meetings as to no upset someone. It is what business men do. If they do things right that is.

2. The one thing that you are looking at wrongly is that fact is yeah there is alot we dont kno from countries like China becuase for so long there communist government maintained a "wall" in way keeping other cultures out of there countries and there culture from gettin out. Every culture that can be studied into High schools in america have usually had open boarders for at least the last 100 years or longer. With the exception of Latin or Roman culture which is no longer a living culture but an ancient one that was the basis for many of the western languages...as well as all the medicial fields.

Btw these cookies are great!!!

But Moving on....

3. Our government knows alot of information and is always developing new stuff that we would not have a problem with other countries for decades. We have the resourse that those countries do not have. As well as the population that is not as large as one like Chinas wo maintain. That gives us as a country a little bit more funds to play around with i guess you can say. For example; The F-117A Stealth Bomber was in use for 15 years before the American Public knew about it. Now imagine that technology that is presently in use know that we currently do not have public knowledge on.

What you do not take into account about american supremecy is the fact that there is tonz of stuff that we dont have any knowlege on that goes on that keeps us on top. There are things that go on behind the scenes with other countries that cant be taught in schools that you cant be taught about and that you cant prepare for that keep america where it is. But yes eventually we will fall as the major power in the world. But i dont think it will be because of another country. It will be internally. We will casue you selves to fall as a world power if things at home do not change.

Oh and sorry for the double post but...

Taiwan is presently the fastest growing Economic power in there world.


Btw Sam's Club Cookies suck

[*kryogenix*]

currently inferior in quality, sure.  but they'll overtake us eventually.

How do you know this?

Many a Chinese company uses hit and run tactics. This is pretty much their MO:

1. Start company that competes with an American company.
2. Make an inferior but cheaper product. Break patent/copyright laws if necessary.
3. Profit!
4. Shut down company before lawsuits.
5. Rinse, lather and repeat.

Pretty much everything in China (including their military!) is a cheap imitation of another product. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese companies didn't have R&D departments!

[stryker76]

How do you know this?

Many a Chinese company uses hit and run tactics. This is pretty much their MO:

1. Start company that competes with an American company.
2. Make an inferior but cheaper product. Break patent/copyright laws if necessary.
3. Profit!
4. Shut down company before lawsuits.
5. Rinse, lather and repeat.

Pretty much everything in China (including their military!) is a cheap imitation of another product. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese companies didn't have R&D departments!

I agree completely. Other then that fact that China's Military is recycled Russian Army junk. Much of there weaponry was developed by the russians and then bought. There is no orginial Military technology that comes out of China or Russian presently ne more.

That i Kno of.....

[*kryogenix*]

I agree completely. Other then that fact that China's Military is recycled Russian Army junk. Much of there weaponry was developed by the russians and then bought. There is no orginial Military technology that comes out of China or Russian presently ne more.

That i Kno of.....

Well, China has a modified AK-47 that's in bullpup configuration. It was made by the Chinese, but its heart and soul is still the AK-47. Also China has made a few tanks based off of Soviet designs, and they're trying to copy the ARENA system.

Russia simply has no money to maintain, let alone develop, weapons. They had to sell one of their aircraft carriers to China, interestingly enough.

[sadolakced acid]

and there is the unsettling trend of chinese scholars coming to america, gettign an american education, and returning to china.

they're gaining capabilities fast.

don't judge a country by what it's done. because most likely, it's moved on.

[stryker76]

don't judge a country by what it's done.  because most likely, it's moved on.

If you cant judge a country by what they have done before then what can you base them on? What a country does is what everyone bases them on. The only thing that China presently has goin for them is that they are no longer a strict Communist state but have been slowly moving to a Socialist/Democractic type government with a lil less corruption...I think i dont study up on China becuase i have to need for it.

[sadolakced acid]

If you cant judge a country by what they have done before then what can you base them on? What a country does is what everyone bases them on. The only thing that China presently has goin for them is that they are no longer a strict Communist state but have been slowly moving to a Socialist/Democractic type government with a lil less corruption...I think i dont study up on China becuase i have to need for it.

you think you have no need for it because you've not done it.

the chinese are the third nation to put a man in space independently.

that puts the ahead of a lot of countries, like say britian.

it also means they have a weapons platform cabable of striking anywhere in the world.

and it also means they have the funds to support such a program. They're not third world anymore.

you judge a country by where it's going.

and china is going up.

[*mipadi*]

America could probably benefit more from improving its educational system, especially its secondary educational system, more than simply focusing on China. China is a focus for post-secondary education, for students—people—who have a genuine interest in it. Certainly this means more exposure to eastern cultures would be beneficial prior to college, but part of America's impending erosion in dominance is due to its educational system, especially public high schools, which are focused on turning out students who can pass a standardized test, and not on students who can really think and learn. There's a lot of pressure on teachers to "leave no child behind" and simply pass them without making the students really learn. I think the education system in general should be a focus, not just Chinese studies.

Your focus is on numbers. We don't need a lot of people to study China, just some truly talented and dedicated individuals.

[stryker76]

America could probably benefit more from improving its educational system, especially its secondary educational system, more than simply focusing on China. China is a focus for post-secondary education, for students—people—who have a genuine interest in it. Certainly this means more exposure to eastern cultures would be beneficial prior to college, but part of America's impending erosion in dominance is due to its educational system, especially public high schools, which are focused on turning out students who can pass a standardized test, and not on students who can really think and learn. There's a lot of pressure on teachers to "leave no child behind" and simply pass them without making the students really learn. I think the education system in general should be a focus, not just Chinese studies.

Your focus is on numbers. We don't need a lot of people to study China, just some truly talented and dedicated individuals.

I agree totally. Standardize testing is a terrible way to test whether or not you know your stuff.

Also i have to say. Yeah China has put ppl in space...but its not that hard to put someone or something in space. All it takes is a little bit of knowledge in Physics and in Chemistry. I could if i wanted i had hmmmm about 10k put my dog in space. All it takes is some remote control components, Nitrous Oxide(Oxidizer), a homemade fuel which im not posting becuase i dont want ppl tryin it out, and some plumbing fixtures. Its not that difficult.

Also the only reason China has began to move in a positive direction is because they have opened there boarders again. Think back to around the time of the Vietnam War and you could not freely gettin into China. there Boarders where closed. Like the former USSR. Soo how can you expect sooo many people to be interested in something that for sooo long we have been taught isnt good becuase they are or were communist. It wasnt till my freshmen tear in high school that i learned ne thing on China. Its not totally Americas fault that we dont know ne thing on China when the possiblity of collecting data and information first hand has just resently in the past 40-50 years presented its self possible. If China for so long wasnt soo ethnocentric and keep its boarders open more people would most likely have more knowledge on there culture.

[sadolakced acid]

I agree totally. Standardize testing is a terrible way to test whether or not you know your stuff.

Also i have to say. Yeah China has put ppl in space...but its not that hard to put someone or something in space. All it takes is a little bit of knowledge in Physics and in Chemistry. I could if i wanted i had hmmmm about 10k put my dog in space. All it takes is some remote control components, Nitrous Oxide(Oxidizer), a homemade fuel which im not posting becuase i dont want ppl tryin it out, and some plumbing fixtures. Its not that difficult.

you're extrapolating information from the wrong areas. the mythbusters made the equivalent of a cruise missile. it could have never gotten to space.

even space ship one hasn't truely gotten to space.

as of now, the only way to reach space and establish orbit is with complicated and expensive liquid fuel rockets. Only three countries have put people in space.

and then you need precise control on your velocity, and you need life support systems, etc.

10k can't put your dog in space, even if it were dead.

Also the only reason China has began to move in a positive direction is because they have opened there boarders again. Think back to around the time of the Vietnam War and you could not freely gettin into China. there Boarders where closed. Like the former USSR. Soo how can you expect sooo many people to be interested in something that for sooo long we have been taught isnt good becuase they are or were communist. It wasnt till my freshmen tear in high school that i learned ne thing on China. Its not totally Americas fault that we dont know ne thing on China when the possiblity of collecting data and information first hand has just resently in the past 40-50 years presented its self possible. If China for so long wasnt soo ethnocentric and keep its boarders open more people would most likely have more knowledge on there culture.

because 40-50 years is a really short time to learn things.

and when has china closed it's borders compeltely and sucessfully?

[*kryogenix*]

Your focus is on numbers. We don't need a lot of people to study China, just some truly talented and dedicated individuals.

Good point. A few talented and dedicated individuals is all we need. It's diminishing marginal utility after that.

[stryker76]

Yeah it is expensive to make rocket fuels but easy if you can get the materials. Also, No spaceship One is a way to get people into space and back with the same methods of an Airplane. It doesnt need to be done that was it could be done other ways. The reason it didnt go ne further then the outer atmosphere is because if it went too fast its wings wouldnt have been able to with stand the force and possibly caused the craft more difficulty to maintain control.

NASA doenst use nething to control there velocity leaving the earths atmosphere. The use to Solid rocket boosts which you can not control there velocity other then packing less fuel into its cylindars. the only controlled velocity is in orbit so that its doesnt fall to earth at the wrong angle, or go controllably out into space.

Early rockets had only a fuseloge(sp) and 3-4 fins on the lower ends to maintain stability. With the correct launch angle and the right amount of propellent its wouldnt be to extremly difficult to do. As for life support systems.....i never said what i sent into space would live....but it wouldnt take much more then a pressure suit and some well made SCUB gear.....So over all maybe it would take about 200k....

If you look at the Rockets that goin into space now you have to remember most of the instumentation on them is for experiments and because the crafts are made to be reusable. But to make a one time use craft that has not experimentation equipment then it wouldnt be to hard. It would wiegh less and take less to lift and less or move faster depending on how you make it.

I do acctually kno what im takin about...i live about 45 mins for Kennedy Space center. I kno ppl that are NASA payload specialist. I make model rockets for a hobby and i excelled in Chemistry in school. I made homemade rocket fuel for a final Project in my Chemistry class and launched a small rocket 5 miles to the other side of town with only 20 yards of in accuracy.

I kno rockets. Im good with rockets and such.

[*kryogenix*]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/clic...ine/4586914.stm

Just an article on China.

[sadolakced acid]

if it's so easy, why have only 3 countries done it?

sure, solid rockets are quite easy. liquid rockets- the type required for a space launch, are quite complex.

solid rockets can only be used as jettisonable external boosters.

[medic]

americans don't know thier enemies.

but our enemies know us all too well.

therefore, we will fall, in the next 50 years.
at least, from power.

the government will fall not long after that.

Well, in the next 50 years, well see about that.

Now remember, the world was going to end from Y2K back in the day...

Well, China has a modified AK-47 that's in bullpup configuration. It was made by the Chinese, but its heart and soul is still the AK-47. Also China has made a few tanks based off of Soviet designs, and they're trying to copy the ARENA system.

Russia simply has no money to maintain, let alone develop, weapons. They had to sell one of their aircraft carriers to China, interestingly enough.

The AK-47 was made by the Russian, and was sold to China during the fall of the Soviet Union. Along with half of there armor and jets. Chinas main jet is the MIG, once again a Russian built war machine. Yes, they sold one of there aircraft carriers to China. But why can't China produce there own aircraft carriers? You also have to take into fact that China is Communist, the ideals of communism is a stock pile of power for a mass war. I dought that is what China has in mind, they are leaning towards Democracy now-a-days. Give it a few years, and China will be back to its old ways. China, is a super power, but so is the US, Brittan, Canada, and Russia. The Third largest military is Russia, during the cold war, Russia had 4x the amount of long range nuqs that the US had. During the fall of the USSR, they "disappeared". Now, remember when China first became a Communist country, it was a hell hole. The Russian economy is growing at nearly eight percent, adjusted for inflation. With a rising middle class, retail sales have been growing about 20 percent a year. When you are in Russia, the average family car is a Mercedes. It is not because of the so called “Russian Mob” now a days, its because companies have started to invest billions into the Russia Economy.

And the Russian Treasury has bounced back from the ruble crisis of 1998.A critical difference in economy today is the Russian central bank. It has foreign currency reserves of almost $900.9 billion. Money is flowing into the Russian stock market. Give it time, soon Russia will once again, be the super power it once was.

Russian oil companies are increasing production, spurred by high oil prices on world markets. In doing this, the companies curtail their investments in exploration of new deposits and overall development of their business. Equipment producers already say that a number of orders for new equipment have decreased greatly.

Russian daily Izvestia writes that in 2003 the total net income of Russian oil companies amounted to $25 billion, while total investments in business development were only $7 billion. In the first months of 2004 oil production grew by 10.7 percent compared to the same period of last year. Such a notable increase is attributed to high prices that rule world oil markets.

Russia is the only country which exports oil and increases its production along with increase in demand. This information was contained in the monthly report prepared by experts of International Energy Agency. According to the Agency’s figures over the first fourth months of 2004 overall production of oil in Russia increased by almost 30 percent. At the same time other countries which export oil, notably members of OPEC, are reducing the production.

The dangers of uncontrolled production increases which can lead to rapid “depletion of deposits” were pointed out today by Simon Vainstock, CEO of state-owned pipeline monopoly Transneft. Vainstock declared that Transneft is ready to become “an instrument” that would help limit the export of oil. In the opinion of Transneft official the government should control the development of natural resources’ deposits with the help of licensing agreements because improper usage will have a major adverse effect on Russia’s future.

Yah, I kind of wen't off subject a little bit...

[*kryogenix*]

if it's so easy, why have only 3 countries done it?

sure, solid rockets are quite easy.  liquid rockets- the type required for a space launch, are quite complex.

solid rockets can only be used as jettisonable external boosters.

3 countries have gotten a man into space. But more have gotten a rocket into space. The EU has the Ariane project and Japan has the MLV.

Not to mention the private groups (including students!) that have gotten rockets.

The problem is getting a man inside and bringing him back alive.

The AK-47 was made by the Russian, and was sold to China during the fall of the Soviet Union. Along with half of there armor and jets. Chinas main jet is the MIG, once again a Russian built war machine. Yes, they sold one of there aircraft carriers to China. But why can't China produce there own aircraft carriers? You also have to take into fact that China is Communist, the ideals of communism is a stock pile of power for a mass war. I dought that is what China has in mind, they are leaning towards Democracy now-a-days. Give it a few years, and China will be back to its old ways. China, is a super power, but so is the US, Brittan, Canada, and Russia. The Third largest military is Russia, during the cold war, Russia had 4x the amount of long range nuqs that the US had. During the fall of the USSR, they "disappeared". Now, remember when China first became a Communist country, it was a hell hole. The Russian economy is growing at nearly eight percent, adjusted for inflation. With a rising middle class, retail sales have been growing about 20 percent a year. When you are in Russia, the average family car is a Mercedes. It is not because of the so called “Russian Mob” now a days, its because companies have started to invest billions into the Russia Economy.

I don't think the Russians sold the production rights of the AK-47 to China. China is also going to use the Jian-10, a domestically developed fighter (although they use Russian and Israeli technology onboard). China bought the aircraft carrier because they're studying the hull of the carrier. They're probably reverse engineering everything so that they can make their own.

China also doesn't seem to be leaning towards democracy nowadays, they're leaning towards a more free-market economy.

[sadolakced acid]

3 countries have gotten a man into space. But more have gotten a rocket into space. The EU has the Ariane project and Japan has the MLV.

Not to mention the private groups (including students!) that have gotten rockets.

The problem is getting a man inside and bringing him back alive.

yes, life support is the problem.

but putting a man in space, and also the moon, is such an empty investment, it says something about a country willing to do it.

[stryker76]

yes, life support is the problem.

but putting a man in space, and also the moon, is such an empty investment, it says something about a country willing to do it.

AN EMPTY INVESTMENT????

You no nothing about the space programs dont you?

1 Hundreds or products used in many medicines we take can only be made in mirco gravity (SPACE)

2 If you say to dont kno our enemies....Then y was it that in 2001 private American companies spotted the first completely Chinese Spy plane that they where dumb enough to leave out on the run way was spot an photo graphed.

3 GPS is used all over the world and saves countless lives every day from ppl lost or children that have been kidnapped abd may be caring cell phones.

4. Being able to communicate globally is thanx to the space program.

5. The proposel of colonizing space isnt just a Sci-Fi fiction concept. Its the next big step in Space travel.

6. The Ability to watch the always changing weather.

7. The ability to help give fast warnings to people that are at risk of dangerous weather.

There are many more reasons that the space program is soo valuable to use and Almost every other country in the world.
The space program is hardly an empty investment.

Sorry for ne rudeness it jes pisses me off to see some say that when so many lives where lost to give us much of what we use today.

Remember the Challenger, Columbia, and all the others the gave there life to improve ours and in the name of discover leading up to what we have today.

[sadolakced acid]

it's an empty investment for other countries.

the government does not earn money from spinoff technologies of the space program.

expecially with already established space programs, it is much more economical to go into space on a russian rocket than to build your own.

the technologies that simply going to space spins off have already been developed. there is no gain from reproducing what the US did in the 60s. Unless china can build a space station and start experiments there, they will not reap any rewards from the space program.

and your list:

1- microgravity can be achieved much cheaper with a parabolic flight path airplane.

2- inconsequetial. how do you know that wasn't intentional? plus, it's not applicable to the topic right now, at least, i don't seehow it is.

3- GPS does not require manned space missions.

4- communications sattelittes do not require manned space missions.

5- the longest stay in space by a human was on the order of two years. researchers still do not know how a human embryo will develop in space. Any colonization in space must wait for new technologies.

6- weather satallites do not require manned space missions.

7- weather satallites and communication satallites do not require manned space missions.


i know quite a lot about the US space program. and the US space program is certainly not an empty investment- but the chinese space program is, currently.

[stryker76]

1-  microgravity can be achieved much cheaper with a parabolic flight path airplane.

I do say that yes that would be a cheaper way of making a near 0g atmosphere but for the purpose of making medicines and such. That would not be a likely choice since it is only for a limited time before every thing comes crashing down again.

[sadolakced acid]

name me one medicine that must be developed in zero G.

anyways; it seems the british are getting the idea:

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.htm...se.homework.cnn