kwanzaa Options

[*kryogenix*]

Do you view Kwanzaa as a real holiday, or a joke?

[illumineering]

We would all benefit from an active recognition of the 7 principles of Kwanzaa. Joke? Far from it.

[*kryogenix*]

Well, it's not even an African holiday. It was made by Ron Karenga (a Black militant and convicted felon) in the 60's. Fewer than 2% celebrate it.

Also, Kwanzaa is not compatible with all African cultures, especially with North Africa, which practices Islam. Actually, it attempts to reject the other religious holidays.

Kwanzaa teaches the seven principles of blackness (I'm not even kidding). It is also evident of Karenga's marxist views.

[illumineering]

Well, it's not even an African holiday. It was made by Ron Karenga (a Black militant and convicted felon) in the 60's. Fewer than 2% celebrate it.

Also, Kwanzaa is not compatible with all African cultures, especially with North Africa, which practices Islam. Actually, it attempts to reject the other religious holidays.

Kwanzaa teaches the seven principles of blackness (I'm not even kidding). It is also evident of Karenga's marxist views.

Of course it's not an African holiday, Ron Karenga in an African American. Kwanzaa is NOT viewed as a religious practice, it is about culture. Cultures can embrace more than one religion. I didn't realize the validity of Kwanzaa, or any other celebration, was based on popularity polls.

The seven principles of blackness have validity across all cultures. The primary purpose of naming the principles was to empower the BLACK community. The naming of these principles was done in response to Karenga's negative views of western religion with respect to the BLACK community. As for being a convicted felon, Malcom X was as well. He served his time and has as much right as any other person to reenter society. That fact in no way invalidated his leadership among the African American community. If you read Karenga's biography, he also has 2 doctorate degrees, written several books, chaired CSULA's Dept. of Black Studies and was involved in the establishment of the Milliion Man March.

[*kryogenix*]

Of course it's not an African holiday, Ron Karenga in an African American.  Kwanzaa is NOT viewed as a religious practice, it is about culture.  Cultures can embrace more than one religion.  I didn't realize the validity of Kwanzaa, or any other celebration, was based on popularity polls.

The seven principles of blackness have validity across all cultures.  The primary purpose of naming the principles was to empower the BLACK community.  The naming of these principles was done in response to Karenga's negative views of western religion with respect to the BLACK community.  As for being a convicted felon, Malcom X was as well.  He served his time and has as much right as any other person to reenter society.  That fact in no way invalidated his leadership among the African American community.  If you read Karenga's biography, he also has 2 doctorate degrees, written several books, chaired CSULA's Dept. of Black Studies and was involved in the establishment of the Milliion Man March.

I didn't say it was religious. However, the religion discourages celebrating other religious holidays at the time. Initially, Kwanzaa was not meant to be celebrated alongside other holidays. However, when they realized that not many people celebrated it, he changed his opinion and said it was possible for Christian blacks to celebrate.

It's not a popularity poll. The statistic proves that the majority of African Americans do not think it is a holiday worth celebrating. When the group that is supposed to be celebrating the holiday refuses to celebrate it, you kinda have to question its validity.

If they have validity across all cultures, why call it the principles of "BLACKNESS?" If I believed in those principles, would that make me more black than someone who didn't believe in them? If you look closely, the principles coincide with marxist/socialist principles, which he picked up after his felony sentence.

What do his degrees and other credentials mean? It doesn't change the fact that he tortured two people and was convicted of felony charges. The fact that he associates with the Million Man March (and Louis Farrakhan) doesn't improve my opinion of him.

[illumineering]

I didn't say it was religious. However, the religion discourages celebrating other religious holidays at the time.

Huh? If it's not a religious celebration, this makes absloutely no sense. What is "the religion" refering to?

It's not a popularity poll. The statistic proves that the majority of African Americans do not think it is a holiday worth celebrating. When the group that is supposed to be celebrating the holiday refuses to celebrate it, you kinda have to question its validity.

Absolutely not. Its validity, as previously stated, has nothing to do with polls. The 6th commandment is Thou shalt not kill yet people support the "War on Terror." Polls and popular support are not necessarily an indication of validity or correctness.

If they have validity across all cultures, why call it the principles of "BLACKNESS?" If I believed in those principles, would that make me more black than someone who didn't believe in them?

Again, the principles are aimed at supporting that specific community. It's not about belief in the religious sense. It's about self-empowerment which, in the view of Dr. Karenga, is lost in the presence of western religion.

If you look closely, the principles coincide with marxist/socialist principles, which he picked up after his felony sentence.

Right. Examine his views of western religion and this makes sense. Why are you dwelling on his conviction? He served his time and paid his debt to society. George Bush was arrested for cocaine and was still elected president.

What do his degrees and other credentials mean? It doesn't change the fact that he tortured two people and was convicted of felony charges. The fact that he associates with the Million Man March (and Louis Farrakhan) doesn't improve my opinion of him.

I posted these in response to your fixation on Dr. Karenga's felony conviction. Since you feel it serves to invalidate his establishment of Kwanzaa, I posted them to offer a more well-rounded perspective of his actions and contributions to his community.

[Mulder]

how can you see that its fake...?
thats like saying hannukah is fake. that christmas is fake.

and id be afraid to say christmas was fake.


sorry if that sounded like babble. flu. im... like cold-sweating right now.

gah.

[NoSex]

Kyrogenix, you're fighting a string of logical fallacies.

The statistic proves that the majority of African Americans do not think it is a holiday worth celebrating. When the group that is supposed to be celebrating the holiday refuses to celebrate it, you kinda have to question its validity.

That's an argument from popularity. You are trying to discount the holiday by saying that it's not popular. So what? Popularity has nothing to do with the validity of any given proposition. The truth is not democratic.

If they have validity across all cultures, why call it the principles of "BLACKNESS?" If I believed in those principles, would that make me more black than someone who didn't believe in them?

You're fighting a straw man argument now. You are misrepresenting the use of calling the principles "of blackness." People have already explained the significance of those words. Why are you ignoring that fact?

What do his degrees and other credentials mean? It doesn't change the fact that he tortured two people and was convicted of felony charges. The fact that he associates with the Million Man March (and Louis Farrakhan) doesn't improve my opinion of him.

Argument from insult. You are attacking the man's character instead of investigating the holiday. Just because someone may be an "evil" man does not mean he can not be right. When debating, we oppose the argument not the arguer. It holds no value to attack a man's character when trying to discount his convictions. In this case, if you are trying to prove that Kwanzaa is somehow "invalid," you should focus on what exactly Kwanzaa is and what it teaches. Not, who teaches it, who practices it, or who doesn't teach or practice it.

[sadolakced acid]

kwanzaa has always struck me as an artificial holiday, celebrated much for the same reason elementary schools celebrate black history month.

most of us learn about kwanzaa in school, right?

most often taught to validate the teaching of other holidays, and also as a sort of political/emotional handout to blacks, saying "look! we're recognizing something of yours."

and the actual holiday itself- it seems to be simply a meld of 'commercialized christmas' and haunakah.

the smell of artificial lingeres strong.

[*kryogenix*]

Huh?  If it's not a religious celebration, this makes absloutely no sense.  What is "the religion" refering to?

I mistyped. I mean celebration.

Absolutely not.  Its validity, as previously stated, has nothing to do with polls.  The 6th commandment is Thou shalt not kill yet people support the "War on Terror."  Polls and popular support are not necessarily an indication of validity or correctness.
Again, the principles are aimed at supporting that specific community.  It's not about belief in the religious sense.  It's about self-empowerment which, in the view of Dr. Karenga, is lost in the presence of western religion.

Of course not, but it doesn't mean the opposite is true either. The fact is, blacks are not identifying with the celebration.

Right.  Examine his views of western religion and this makes sense.  Why are you dwelling on his conviction?  He served his time and paid his debt to society.  George Bush was arrested for cocaine and was still elected president.

Karenga was influenced by marxist ideals during his sentence.

I posted these in response to your fixation on Dr. Karenga's felony conviction.  Since you feel it serves to invalidate his establishment of Kwanzaa, I posted them to offer a more well-rounded perspective of his actions and contributions to his community.

If being a militant is a contribution to society...

That's an argument from popularity. You are trying to discount the holiday by saying that it's not popular. So what? Popularity has nothing to do with the validity of any given proposition. The truth is not democratic.

See arguement above.

You're fighting a straw man argument now. You are misrepresenting the use of calling the principles "of blackness." People have already explained the significance of those words. Why are you ignoring that fact?

Because supposedly, anyone is allowed to celebrate Kwanzaa, yet the main principles were called the principles of blackness.

Argument from insult. You are attacking the man's character instead of investigating the holiday. Just because someone may be an "evil" man does not mean he can not be right. When debating, we oppose the argument not the arguer. It holds no value to attack a man's character when trying to discount his convictions. In this case, if you are trying to prove that Kwanzaa is somehow "invalid," you should focus on what exactly Kwanzaa is and what it teaches. Not, who teaches it, who practices it, or who doesn't teach or practice it.

The fact of the matter is Kwanzaa was not an African holiday. The kinara was not used in Africa. The person who made up Kwanzaa was an American black militant who wanted to spread his beliefs throughout the African American community.

  kwanzaa has always struck me as an artificial holiday, celebrated much for the same reason elementary schools celebrate black history month.

most of us learn about kwanzaa in school, right?

most often taught to validate the teaching of other holidays, and also as a sort of political/emotional handout to blacks, saying "look! we're recognizing something of yours."

and the actual holiday itself- it seems to be simply a meld of 'commercialized christmas' and haunakah.

the smell of artificial lingeres strong.

I agree.

[*tweeak*]

I can understand the joke. Yes, the principles are good, but in reality, how many people buy it? Most people don't really know what it is, as schools often do little to dispell the opinion that it's some sort of black religious holiday. It's all a matter of political correctness. I have yet to meet anyone who actually celebrates Kwanzaa and yet he whole winter holiday thing must to Christmas, Hanukkah...oh yeah, and Kwanzaa too. Nate, you say that the value of it is not based on popularity, but is a holiday worth anything if it isn't recognized? Doesn't that make it about as worth while as say Secretarys' Day? It's a national holiday, so obviously there was a foundation for its creation initially, but in reality the importance is measured in how many people care. Additionally, does this not also toe the line of racism? In loo of things like Black History Month and Affirmative Action, these are not moving us any closer to rquality, which should be the ultimate goal. By creating all of these "oppertunities" and "empowerments" for African Americans both as individuals and as a community, it only keeps the divide between the races open. We as Americans cannot spend all eternity making amends for the past. Racism cannot be blamed for everything, and reverse racism is still racism. While I'm getting off on a bit of a tangent now, it seems that Kwanzaa is another attempt to boost black morale in order for them to get ahead. It does seem a bit off, though, because all cultures would benefit from the principles, and to confine them to one race seems counter-productive. Similarly, the celebration seems out of place in today's society. By forcing recognition on everyone, it will only get mocked and attract eye rolls at it's mention- both by blacks and other races alike. The part of the African American community that could best benefit from Kwanzaa is the part that does the best job of ignoring it, while much of the remainder has risen above the challanges and converged with the rest of the society, making a race-specific celebration unnecessary. While Kwanzaa originally served its purpose when it was introduced, it seems to have become obsolete in its isolationism.

[yo pusha]

kwanzaa has always struck me as an artificial holiday, celebrated much for the same reason elementary schools celebrate black history month.

most of us learn about kwanzaa in school, right?

most often taught to validate the teaching of other holidays, and also as a sort of political/emotional handout to blacks, saying "look!  we're recognizing something of yours."

and the actual holiday itself-  it seems to be simply a meld of 'commercialized christmas' and haunakah. 

the smell of artificial lingeres strong.

i agree

as kryo said before, fewer than 2 percent of the population celebrate it.

[fameONE]

I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I don't need a gimmick to get in tune with my culture's history.

Christmas is a joke, too.

[pandamonium]

i am not of african american descent but i celebrated kwanzaa this year with my friends' family cause i just happened to be in the house but kwanzaa couldnt be a joke, you actually get to discuss one of the principals and the first one was umboja and that meant unity. like i doubt that any other family that celebrates christmas doesnt really know what christmas is. kwanzaa you actually know what it means when people celebrate it.

[*tweeak*]

I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I don't need a gimmick to get in tune with my culture's history.

Christmas is a joke, too.

The way Christmas is celebrated is a joke. As an actual religious holiday, not so much. However, it barely retains any of that original meaning at all, and has warped into more of an American holiday than a Christian one (which makes people's urge to be politically correct absurd). I think the main joke would be because it shows so perfectly American we are: the sheer and utter commerialism is sickening, and yet most people aren't willing to give it up anyway.

[fameONE]

The way Christmas is celebrated is a joke. As an actual religious holiday, not so much. However, it barely retains any of that original meaning at all, and has warped into more of an American holiday than a Christian one (which makes people's urge to be politically correct absurd). I think the main joke would be because it shows so perfectly American we are: the sheer and utter commerialism is sickening, and yet most people aren't willing to give it up anyway.

Glad we're on the same page.

[*tweeak*]

Eh, I didn't mean to go into an explanation of it; I intended to make an actual point, but I ramble and it never happened.

[fameONE]

Eh, I didn't mean to go into an explanation of it; I intended to make an actual point, but I ramble and it never happened.

Yes, but I knew where you were headed.

[acid_high]

Well, it's not even an African holiday. It was made by Ron Karenga (a Black militant and convicted felon) in the 60's. Fewer than 2% celebrate it.

Also, Kwanzaa is not compatible with all African cultures, especially with North Africa, which practices Islam. Actually, it attempts to reject the other religious holidays.

Kwanzaa teaches the seven principles of blackness (I'm not even kidding). It is also evident of Karenga's marxist views.

Feeling this guy to I mean I'm black but I feel no need to celebrate this hoilday. When the people in africa give this hoilday some needed respeact i will to. i mean the seven days are important in the sense of being a humam in genral not just black.

[artislife90]

Anything you want to celebrate can be a holiday if you make it one... I think I'll start celebrating the day the OS X Tiger came out as a holiday for example. That does not mean you have to understand it, but you don't have the right to call it a joke.

[vash1530]

^you have the right to call anything you want a joke. and this holiday is one. just like many of america's other corporized(?) holidays.

[MFDOOM]

Holidays are rooted in religion for the most part. Doom is not religious.

Doom believes in himself. Kwanzaa is just a way for black people to catch up and compensate in order to feel included.