a question about religion Options

[Mulder]

i was thinking about why im agnostic. and i realized, its because i was raised in a christian community, not a jewish one. i never developed jewish ties.


so i was wondering, how do you feel about a child growing up in a community whose major religion is not their own? do you think its bad? do you think that children should grow up in their religious community only? what about public schools?

and i searched. i really did.

[*disco infiltrator*]

In the end, people will ultimately make their own decisions and think through things themselves, no matter where they grow up or in what environment. I know lots of people who were raised strongly Christian and turned out pretty strongly Atheist. It depends on the will of the person to stick to what they believe.

And, Judaism is pretty similar to Christianity in a lot of the teachings, besides the whole Jesus being the Savior thing, so it probably wouldn't have been that different for you.

[*mona lisa*]

I agree with Sammi. Your surroundings may have some part in it, but it's pretty much what you truly believe in. I'm Hindu and used to live in a mixed, but mostly Christian neighborhood and am now living in a Jewish community. You will hardly find any Hindus here, but I'm still Hindu. I don't have any thoughts about converting to any other religion. Yup, it's all in the head.

Children shouldn't have to grow up in a religious community because in my opinion, it limits your knowledge. They can get used to seeing people from that main religion and there's not much interaction with other people. They won't be open to other people and other religions/cultures etc. Of course, this all depends on other factors. One being the individual or how long they spend in a religious community...

[*not_your_average*]

Well, I was raised Hindu as well, and even though they have good values, I just can't bring myself to be a religious person. Which is why I am an atheist.

[_suzie_]

Children shouldn't have to grow up in a religious community because in my opinion, it limits your knowledge.

as much as i agree with that, there is another side. i mean, i consider my ethics teacher one of the only true christians ive EVER met in my life, and if i hadn't gone to a catholic school i never would have had the chance to be taught by her. she's a great person and i duno what i would have done without her guidance. she never foreced her views on anyone, and even encouraged people to find themselves even if it meant believing differently than how they were brought up.

Being able to have that experience has really allowed me to grow as an individual, and develop my own mind rather than be a blind sheep as you'd expect from a non-religiously-mixed school. Come to think of it, not alot of people in my year are christian at all in their hearts.

so i guess, ur right, but it really depends on the forces influencing you and what theyre intent is. and a great deal of thought and searching is needed by the individual too, i think

im not too sure what i am right now. i believe theres one god and the world religions interpret him in their own way, often in a bigotted way, and this causes conflict and war. which sucks. so im in the process of coming to terms with what i believe , and asking myself questions i havent really asked before, abbout possibilities etc. argh im ranting! ahah sorry!

[acid_high]

I think that where you live won't decided your religion that's for you to find out on your own and I'm not just talking about your parents forcing it down your throat but you going out into the world by your self and figuring it out

[*mona lisa*]

as much as i agree with that, there is another side. i mean, i consider my ethics teacher one of the only true christians ive EVER met in my life, and if i hadn't  gone to a catholic school i never would have had the chance to be taught by her. she's a great person and i duno what i would have done without her guidance. she never foreced her views on anyone, and even encouraged people to find themselves even if it meant believing differently than how they were brought up.
 
  Being able to have that experience has really allowed me to grow as an individual, and develop my own mind rather than be a blind sheep as you'd expect from a non-religiously-mixed school. Come to think of it, not alot of people in my year are christian at all in their hearts.

so i guess, ur right, but it really depends on the forces  influencing you and what theyre intent is. and a great deal of thought and searching is needed by the individual too, i think

im not too sure what i am right now. i believe theres one god and the world religions interpret him in their own way, often in a bigotted way, and this causes conflict and war. which sucks. so im in the process of coming to terms with what i believe , and asking myself questions i havent really asked before, abbout possibilities etc. argh im ranting! ahah sorry!

No no, I see where you're coming from. As well, I added this onto my earlier post:

Of course, this all depends on other factors.

:)

[sharpandcuddly]

I don't think that your surrounding area has much to do with what you believe. I grow up in the south, every half a mile there is a church, mostly baptist. I've been to hundreds of churches and I just can't find myself totally believing what they say. I've come to my own decisions, that sure there may be something out there, but what I don't know.

[*mona lisa*]

I don't think that your surrounding area has much to do with what you believe.  I grow up in the south, every half a mile there is a church, mostly baptist.  I've been to hundreds of churches and I just can't find myself totally believing what they say.  I've come to my own decisions, that sure there may be something out there, but what I don't know.

But see, that doesn't happen to everyone. Some aren't as strong-willed as you seem to be.

[Mikael]

im jewish. i grew up in a normal, diverse enviornment i guess. but im still down with my J side.

[unicocira]

i was thinking about why im agnostic. and i realized, its because i was raised in a christian community, not a jewish one. i never developed jewish ties.
so i was wondering, how do you feel about a child growing up in a community whose major religion is not their own? do you think its bad? do you think that children should grow up in their religious community only? what about public schools?

and i searched. i really did.

hmm...don't get me wrong if I may sound offensive..I don't mean to. But understand that just because you were raise in a christian commnunity doesn't mean that you know what it's really about. Also you can't expect people to show you or give you the answers to the truth. Because people will fail you, people will have different views of what truth is. If you really want the answer, You need to do the seeking on your own, not for communities, surrounding to give you an answer. Also you should seek God or gods.

[HuGzNKissEs]

I dont really feel that being brought up in a religious community can affect a person's decision as to what they will believe. My small town is mostly catholic, with the catholic church being the reason for the town's name and all. My father is a strong catholic (my mother non-denom.) and I've been surrounded my strong catholic views my whole life. Yet I choose to differ a bit from catholisism(sp?). I am still catholic, however. Priests, adult leaders, and seminarians from my church have all sat me down & told me many reasons why I should believe in confession and things as such...but i still dont. So its all basically what you've found to be truthful in your own experiences.

[vash1530]

it depends on the person because some are more impression able tha others. also some people arn't raised ina close community.

[aera]

i went to a christian elementary school and ended up athiest. people will choose what to believe in despite what they were taught, even though i personally think most of them don't really belive in their religion all that much.

[The_AZN_Godfathe...]

I don't think we should divide up communities and limit them to a certain "group" or religion. Then we get back to the world of "segregation." Remember?

[ParanoidAndroid]

I think it depends on the religious community itself. If the community is welcoming and open to other cultures and religios and is willing to share their own culture, then I think thats a descent place to race a child, but if the community is out to convert the kid, then they have to move

[FoxBandCutie08]

I believe that if a religion is strongly forced upon you, you will learn to retaliate against it. Forcing things on people eventually teaches them to either develop a strong hate for it or accept it in fear of being punished. I believe parents shouldn't force religion on their kids, if you believe in God, you must find that belief on your own, driving it into someone is not going to make them believe the way they should. I'm agnostic, but I respect other people's religious beliefs. I think that your religious belief is something you should aquire on your own, free of your family's or friend's opinions.

[MFDOOM]

Honest to Doom truth is that a child's mind will be manipulated and tampered with just so he/she will believe what their parents (or guardian) believed.

Conditioning.

[MFDOOM]

Honest to Doom truth is that a child's mind will be manipulated and tampered with just so he/she will believe what their parents (or guardian) believed.

Conditioning.

[NoSex]

It's pretty simply to realize the truth here. Notice how geographical religious belief is. You may be hard pressed to find an Shintoist walking about at your local mall. However, no problem finding them in Japan. You know what you probably won't find in Japan though? A Christian.

Religious belief is highly geographical because of the power adults have an impressionable youth. What do you think getting them into church functions at an early age does to them? It's like intellectual rape. Isn't it awesome?!

[*mipadi*]

Religious belief is highly geographical because of the power adults have an impressionable youth. What do you think getting them into church functions at an early age does to them? It's like intellectual rape. Isn't it awesome?!

That's something that's practically unavoidable. Not exposing a child to religion could be considered "intellectual rape" as well; thus, the only acceptable way to expose a child to religion is to expose them to all religions, which is impractical at best.

Along the same lines, one could say that exposing children to any set of ideas is "intellectual rape".

But I don't think the human mind is so cementable. I went to church as a child, yet I am now an atheist; I was hardly "intellectually raped". Children can learn to reason and develop their own ideas, even if they are pre-exposed to a specific set of ideas.

[NoSex]

That's something that's practically unavoidable. Not exposing a child to religion could be considered "intellectual rape" as well; thus, the only acceptable way to expose a child to religion is to expose them to all religions, which is impractical at best.

Along the same lines, one could say that exposing children to any set of ideas is "intellectual rape".

But I don't think the human mind is so cementable. I went to church as a child, yet I am now an atheist; I was hardly "intellectually raped". Children can learn to reason and develop their own ideas, even if they are pre-exposed to a specific set of ideas.

Sure this may be entirely true. Somehow though, I think telling a child that "this is the only way" and otherwise you will "burn for eternity" is bit more abrasive and hostile towards the freedom of intellectual choice of that child.

You can expose a child to any set of ideas, or religions, or not, and that does not, in my opinion, automatically classify it as 'intellectual rape.'

I believe it becomes intellectual rape when you make the child feel as if they are doing something wrong, will be wronged, or have something great to lose if they do not adhere to said belief or set of ideas. Not all human minds are the same, you might not have cemented into your early religious upbringing, I didn't either. However, that is not to say that many have.

It can be a very difficult ordeal, as you grow older, to seperate from those ideas that were pounded into your mind as a child. Being told that this is right, and this is wrong constantly. Being pressured into belief, looked down upon if different. These become serious issues when thinking over a belief or idea rationally.

When these issues become so serious that they can detour a person from freethought, I think there is definately a problem.

I think there is a significant difference in saying, "Check this out... it's interesting. See what you think," and saying, "Believe it die."

Actually. I think we agree? Maybe not?

[Ington]

In the end, people will ultimately make their own decisions and think through things themselves, no matter where they grow up or in what environment. I know lots of people who were raised strongly Christian and turned out pretty strongly Atheist. It depends on the will of the person to stick to what they believe.

And, Judaism is pretty similar to Christianity in a lot of the teachings, besides the whole Jesus being the Savior thing, so it probably wouldn't have been that different for you.

Actually, though the teachings are similar, the two cultures are completely different. It is much different growing up in a Jewish society than a Christian one.

However, I do agree with Sammi about the will of a person deciding what they want to be. I grew up in a Christian community, and still live in it. However, I am completely Jewish. It matters what you believe is right.

And MF Doom, you're right as well. Many kids are brainwashed into it. However, if they aren't able to question what they think they know at any point of their lives, they're just stupid. They're the ones who drink cyanide laced Kool Aid.

[NoSex]

They're the ones who drink cyanide laced Kool Aid.

What's wrong with that? It's my favorite flavor!

They're also the Pat Robertsons.

[*kryogenix*]

Actually it was Flavor Aid, not Kool Aid.

And I see no problem with growing up in a religious community as long as they actually do their best to understand what they're learning instead of regurgitating "Amen!" everytime someone says something.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Nate's right. Others and myself brought up that point last year when we were having our Creationism vs. Evolution debate...

I'll bring up a topic that Justin made to further prove the point.
http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...98146&hl=fsmism

Now, let's read through that, shall we?

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

Does that sound a little bit familiar?

Let's gain a little more understanding of FSMism.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

OK, now, think. What religion does this remind you of?
If you haven't gotten it yet, replace all occurences of "Flying Spaghetti Monster" with "God".
Sound familiar now?

Now let's look at some of the posts made in that thread.

how did they come up with that?

it should not be taught in school. imagine how the little kids would react 0o

then how do they know he existed. there may be written accounts, but what if they made it up?

^and what if someone pretended to be the flying spaghetti monster? and how did they find the texts?

^ok, fine. but how did they find the texts? how can they prove it's him? and how is it that we can read it? if it is from when the universe was created, it wouldn't be in english.

Wow, If I was in that school I would be cracking up during class and I'm pretty sure all the other kids would be laughing or sitting there bewildered. It's school not the "oh so true" news paper. This is like that kabbalah thing.

.....
FSMism makes fun of the faults in Christianity and Intelligent Design. It's made to sound (just as) ridiculous (as Christianity). Which further proves what I've been saying to people forever...



If you had never learned ANY religion when you were younger, and to learn about them you had to go through independent studies or at least be introduced to them when you were younger, there are things you would think are outright ridiculous, like Christianity, just like these people thought of FSMism. These reactions are so ironic because people don't have reactions like that to Christianity. Christianity is a mainstream religion; everyone knows about it and there are many followers.

If no one ever knew any religion and someone came up to you one day talking about a guy who appeared out of nowhere, created everything that exists today as it is and made all the scientific evidence to prove otherwise just to mess with us, controls everything that happens to you, lives in the sky with angels and waits for you to follow his rules and believe in him your entire life so he can accept you there, loves everyone as equals yet sends some to burn for eternity in hell simply for not being Christians or being gay...you would laugh in their face. It's so beyond farfetched.

When people are born to Christian parents and taught to follow it when they are kids, when their logical skills have not developed to their full potential, when they have the most wildest imaginations of anyone on the planet, when they will believe anything that mommy and daddy tell them because they're mommy and daddy and they know everything, they are brainwashed to follow and believe. Sure, some can turn away, but others' minds haven't grown and searched as much to find the flaws in the logic of the religion, but most will continue to believe because they were told to when their minds were still extremely impressionable.

So, that point is like, completely made. There's really nothing to disprove that...(I can give more examples: Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc. - Kids will believe anything.)

[illumineering]

So, that point is like, completely made. There's really nothing to disprove that...(I can give more examples: Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc. - Kids will believe anything.)

Far from it. Here's a public lecture given by Steven Hawking that refutes your notion through the use of science. There's plenty of contrary evidence.

[NoSex]

Far from it.  Here's a public lecture given by Steven Hawking that refutes your notion through the use of science.  There's plenty of contrary evidence.

Please explain. Cause, if you are suggesting what I think you might, I could laugh alot.

[illumineering]

Please explain. Cause, if you are suggesting what I think you might, I could laugh alot.

The quoted post does not refute the existence of God. The purpose of the link was to show a highly regarded scientist, Hawking, discussing God in quantum terms. I fail to see the humor you refer to.

[NoSex]

The quoted post does not refute the existence of God.  The purpose of the link was to show a highly regarded scientist, Hawking, discussing God in quantum terms.  I fail to see the humor you refer to.

1. I don't believe the quoted post was inteded to refute the existence of God.
2. And what purpose does showing a highly regarded scientist, whoever it may be, discussing God, in any terms, serve? Are you suggesting that such an event may give validity to the existence of a God?
3. This is still funny to me.

[illumineering]

1. I don't believe the quoted post was inteded to refute the existence of God.
2. And what purpose does showing a highly regarded scientsit, whoever it may be, discussing God, in any terms, serve? Are you suggesting that such an event may give validity to the existence of a God?
3. This is still funny to me.

1. We are interpreting the post differently.

2. Yes, it may.

3. I'm glad. How about enlightening me with some of your intellectual wit.

[NoSex]

1.  We are interpreting the post differently.

2.  Yes, it may.

3.  I'm glad.  How about enlightening me with some of your intellectual wit.

1. This may be, but the intention of the post seems rather obvious to me. Read it again. It's about why we believe, how impressionable young minds can be, and psychological noise. It's more of a 'Kids Believe the Darndest Things' post, not a "God doesn't exist, in your face! I have proof," kinda post.
2. No. It may not. One of the better known logical fallacies. It's an argument from authority.
3. No. Ha!

[illumineering]

1. This may be, but the intention of the post seems rather obvious to me. Read it again. It's about why we believe, how impressionable young minds can be, and psychological noise. It's more of a 'Kids Believe the Darndest Things' post, not a "God doesn't exist, in your face! I have proof," kinda post.
2. No. It may not. One of the better known logical fallacies. It's an argument from authority.
3. No. Ha! 

1. Including the debate between creationism and evolution moves the post beyond the impressionable nature of children.

2. I'm illuminating the choice of the word may in one of your previous posts.


From Encarta

 
may [ may ] (past might [ mīt ], 3rd person present singular may) CORE MEANING: a modal verb indicating that something could be true, or could have happened, or will possibly happen in the future
I may not be able to meet you.
He may have been working too hard.
A verdict may be announced today.

In actuality, the quoted "authority" in the link is the science of quantum mechanics. Your argument does not invalidate the possibility.

3. Bleh! I'm sure I'll see you again in other threads.

[NoSex]

1.  Including the debate between creationism and evolution moves the post beyond the impressionable nature of children. 

2.  I'm illuminating the choice of the word may in one of your previous posts. 
From Encarta
In actuality, the quoted "authority" in the link is the science of quantum mechanics.  Your argument does not invalidate the possibility.

3.  Bleh!  I'm sure I'll see you again in other threads.

1. I believe that transition was only included to show the reaction people have to FSMism. As FSMism is practically traditional creationism with a new face, people should accept it, and take it just as seriously as creationism. However, as demonstrated, this is not the case. People are more apt and willing to being that a man in the sky had created the world rather than aliens, an invisible pink unicorn, or a flying spaghetti monster. The purpose of making this distinction is to suggest that the only reason human beings react different to these other "different" theories, is that they have been conditioned all their life to believe belief in God is normal. I believe the idea follows that if children were taught at a very young age, and brought up to believe by a majority of society and their parents that FSMism was true, and that creationism was silly, we might be having a very different conversation today. It is directly playing into our bias and prejudices built at an early age by conditioning. I don't believe it was brought up, in any way, to disprove the existence of God, or work as a counter point against Creationism. Read the post again, and maybe try to ask Sammi herself.
2. If we are basing an argument off the fact that I or someone else said the word "may" in such a way that it could be interpreted to help your case, you seem to be just fighting a straw man based in verbalism. Also, You said quantum mechanics proves me wrong and that my argument does not invalidate the possibility. I still don't think you get it. No one, and definitely not myself, was trying to refute the existence of God.
3. Ahhh ha. Probably!

[*disco infiltrator*]

^ Yea, he gets me.

That wasn't the point of my post, which is why I was confused as to why you (Illumineering) posted your Stephen Hawking article. It had nothing to do with my post. This isn't the God thread. Why would I do that here?

The point is that people shouldn't MAKE a child believe a certain way and that this way is the only possibility for them and that all others are downright wrong. Parents tend to require that their children believe a certain way or follow a certain religion and dismiss any others later introduced to them, that the others are wrong and bad. This isn't true. No matter what religion you follow, there is no other that is necessarily wrong. They are just simply not you and do not follow the same logistics as you and do not have the same mind as you and have not been taught the same values as you, etc.

If you are taught that this is the way and the only way, that is what you will know. You will discredit any other thinking offright, just as the people in the FSMism thread discredited that, even with its striking similarity to Christianity. It was instantly ridiculous simply because it wasn't mainstream. They didn't know it and weren't taught it, so it was wrong off the bat.

And I'm not trying to attack Christianity either; it's just what I've observed since it's so prevalent where I live. It's the same with any other religion taught in the fashion that it is the only possibilty and all others are simply untrue, no ifs ands or buts.

[illumineering]

^ Ahhh...thanks!