American Constitution, Was it twisted? Options

[murderous_though...]

The American Constitution, ratified in the 1780s, is a set of laws that make sure the people have certain rights and protections. The first ammendment, part of which includes the freedom of religion has been twisted into a supression of religion. It says that the government will not establish any specific religion, meaning nationally. It also encompasses the fact that the government will not punish someone because of their religion, but certain people have twisted it into now we cant even speak about religion in schools or government buildings...do you think this is right? or should we be able to talk about God (whoever yours may be) and Christmas instead of X-mas?

[Spirited Away]

since when can we not speak about religion in school and govt buildings? i'm confused.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Who's twisted in in such a way and when has that ever been law?....

What are you talking about?

[sovietski]

I know teachers can't say God..or speak about things pertaining to God. There have been places where people have been verbally attacked and even arrested for speaking about there faith. This happened in Philadelphia.

I do think its been twisted. Americans have changed, and so hasn't America, the beginning of the 1900's and the beginning of the 2000's are landmarks, the first of when America really found itself, and the last where America changed to something completly different than it is.

When you mention Christ people look at you funny, when you mention Buddah people are all like "whoa whats that"...shallow.

[simx]

There have been numerous supreme court cases where there was a mention of "god" and someone got "offended"... like in some place in the south (I dont' remember the exact place) there was a statue of the ten comandments or something like that in front of the courthouse and they claimed it was unconstitutional... some teachers aren't allowed to wear a cross on a necklace while they're at school... people want to take the word god out of the pledge of allegiance.... yea, things like that.

I think these kinds of things are unnecessary... you can't satisfy everyone. It's understandable if a group of people feel offended by something, then there might be a possibility to change things.. but if it's only one or two people who feel offended then why change it?

The ACLU is supposed to "protect our rights"... people's rights are violated everyday, they can't try to fix everything.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Putting the ten commandments outside of a governmental building is definitely out of line, no question......


And um. It's not only one or two people offended by that. Pretty much anyone who isn't Christian, and obviously that's more people than you think.

[WindSorcerous]

All I know is that we claim we have a separation of church and state, but it is obvious that we don't... religion should never go into politics/government...

[Mulder]

well, no. even at private catholic schools, students can abstain from mass.

so..we do uphold some sense of separation of church and state. unfortunately, they are not being enforced. whatever the president's religion is, that takes precedent in every legal matter.

damn you christianity! (im kidding. i dont mean to offend)

[murderous_though...]

I didn't mean as a law, but in certain parts of the country people can get in trouble and all that stuff you see in the news...Twisted meaning how people interpret the meaning of it, like separation of church and state. It wasnt meant originally for no mention at all, but some people wanted it to be and now theres a huge deal about it. Obviously it was an exaggeration saying we CANT EVEN talk about it, but I was stressing it to make a point.

[*tweeak*]

I know teachers can't say God..or speak about things pertaining to God.  There have been places where people have been verbally attacked and even arrested for speaking about there faith.  This happened in Philadelphia.

I do think its been twisted.  Americans have changed, and so hasn't America, the beginning of the 1900's and the beginning of the 2000's are landmarks, the first of when America really found itself, and the last where America changed to something completly different than it is.

When you mention Christ people look at you funny, when you mention Buddah people are all like "whoa whats that"...shallow.

Uh, since when? God comes up all the time in my classes, and my teachers will even oft mention their faith. However, it's not like they're forcing it on us. To not allow God or religion to be mentioned would be a good deal more of a constitutional violation than talking about Him. Honestly, how do you intend to have a history class? Like it or not, religion has shaped our history. Even in language arts it's hard to avoid, since literature contains things

That's a complete run-on sentence

I don't think that's shallow, just ignorant. Which is why God should be allowed to be mentioned in schools- I completely believe that religions should betaught objectively in school. They have been to me.

[sikdragon]

Putting the ten commandments outside of a governmental building is definitely out of line, no question......
And um. It's not only one or two people offended by that. Pretty much anyone who isn't Christian, and obviously that's more people than you think.

How are non-christians offended?

[*disco infiltrator*]

Because then it seems as if they are living in a Christian country where they must be Christian. This is not a Christian country. This is a country with freedom of religion. If the Ten Commandments is posted all over government buildings, does it not make it seem like Christianity is the only way for Americans? That's how it comes off to me.

[yummy_delight]

I think the mention of "God" in schools really depends on the school. It's alright to mention your personal faith as long as you're not forcing it upon anyone. The frenzy to silence talk of religion in schools is just an extreme and unnecessary precautionary measure to ensure that nobody gets offended. No school wants a lawsuit on their hands.

On the subject of the Ten Commandments on government buildings, it is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

If the Ten Commandments is posted all over government buildings, does it not make it seem like Christianity is the only way for Americans?

That's exactly what it seems like. Even though no one is telling people to be Christian, it looks like Christianity is being endorsed by the government. If the 10 Commandments can be posted, why can't parts of the Koran(sp?) or the Torah(sp)?

[Spirited Away]

we already have a ten commandments thread and some of the points were covered, if anyone cared to read.

[*digital.fragrance*]

How about this... evolution in schools. The government demands that that is taught as the origin of life. Yet, teachers can't talk about God or any other god as a possible reason.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Evolution is a scientific theory and doesn't have any part in religion, nor is it connected to any religious belief. Therefore, you learn it in science class, because it is science.

[krispy_kreme333]

On the subject of the Ten Commandments on government buildings, it is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

How is it a violation of seperation of church and state? It was origionally meant to keep the government out of making a country-wide religion and forcing it on everyone, not to take "under God" out of the pledge of alligeance, or taking the 10 Commandments out of courthouses. To be completely honest, our country was formed on Christianity. I'm not saying that everyone has to be a Christian, just that our country was origially based on it, and so it shouldn't be wrong to have the Commandments in a courthouse. We (followers of jesus) respect the fact that not everyone will have the same beliefs as us, so in turn, people should respect us for believing what we do.

[*mipadi*]

We (christians) respect the fact that not everyone will have the same beliefs as us, so in turn, people should respect us for believing what we do.

Is that why Christians are so well-known for supporting gay marriage and the teaching of evolution?

That's not to say I advocate the limiting of rights of expression for any group, but I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that Christians are regularly persecuted for their beliefs, while they are very open towards the beliefs of other individuals and groups.

[krispy_kreme333]

Is that why Christians are so well-known for supporting gay marriage and the teaching of evolution?

Where are you getting that??

Let me rephrase. Not Christians, becasue that name is so abused and twisted. Believers is the correct name. Followers could work too.

[*disco infiltrator*]

How would you feel that instead of posting the Ten Commandments, we posted passages from the Torah? Or maybe, atheist reasonings outside government facilities?

And, as a matter of fact, our country was not founded by Christians. They went away from England to get away from religious persectuion. They were Deists, meaning they believed in a higher power, but not Christians.

[*swtcherriipie*]

I never really cared... im like cathiest... lol my moms catholic and im athiest so.. CATHIEST..

[krispy_kreme333]

How would you feel that instead of posting the Ten Commandments, we posted passages from the Torah? Or maybe, atheist reasonings outside government facilities?

And, as a matter of fact, our country was not founded by Christians. They went away from England to get away from religious persectuion. They were Deists, meaning they believed in a higher power, but not Christians.

True, they were Deists, but that higher power that you are talking aobut was God, they didn't believe in the same things as modern Chrsitians do, but they still believed in God, just not the same way. They still based everything on the bible. Where do you think our government got some of our laws from? They got them from the 10 Commandments. Therefore, our country or laws are based on the bible.

[*mipadi*]

No one's telling Christians they don't have a right to belief what they want. The issue is that, in a secular state, it creates a conflict when it appears that the government is advocating one religion over others.

The US may have been founded by men who espoused Christian ideals, but they certainly advocated religious freedom and, more importantly, religious tolerance, over Christianity. Christians are more than welcome to worship however they wish; however, there is no need to do it in a public space such as a courthouse. That only serves to make non-Christians feel like second-class citizens, which is not what the Founding Fathers would have wanted at all.

[krispy_kreme333]

Putting the 10 Commandments outside a courthouse is not in any way public worship. It is showing respect to the beliefs that our country was formed on.

[*mipadi*]

Putting the 10 Commandments outside a courthouse is not in any way public worship. It is showing respect to the beliefs that our country was formed on.

But it can certainly appear to non-Christians that the government is advocating a particular religion, which is disrespecting the beliefs of our Founding Fathers as well.

I ask: why is it so important that the Ten Commandments be placed in a courthouse? Christians have plenty of places to worship, in public and in private. They are hardly a persecuted group of people in America. Is there a need for Christian symbols to be everywhere?

[krispy_kreme333]

No, there isn't a need for Christian symbols to be everywhere, but there shouldn't be anything wrong with showing people who see the courthouse to know what our country's laws were based on. I don't think that the Commandments should be shoved down everyone throat. I don't think that at all. But people shouldn't try to hide what our country was based on.

This is somewhat off what we are talking about, but what exactly do you mean by persecuted?

[*mipadi*]

By persecuted, I mean that Christian beliefs are hardly held against the person holding them; he is not punished or harassed for his beliefs.

I think, though, that you are missing my point. It is against the beliefs of the Founding Fathers to have the state advocate a particular religion. That is why there is a separation of church and state. A person is free to hold whatever spiritual beliefs they wish, but the government should not promote one set above another.

The US is not founded solely on Christian beliefs; in fact, most of the law is based on Enlightenment philosophy, some which is decidedly not Christian. Christianity creeps into some parts of law because that is what the Founding Fathers knew. They were not Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, and so forth, so it would be hard for them to bring that religious thought into law (although there are many concurrent themes in all the major religions). But it is a stretch to say American law is based on Christianity. There are some references to Christianity, but it is much more based on Enlightenment philosophy, if anything, than Christianity; or, at least, the basis cannot be traced solely to Christianity.

[krispy_kreme333]

Well then, I think I need to resign my position. I have no argue to that. I do have some, but they can't really be proven, and I don't really know enough about this to continue.
I congratulate you, you obviously know what you are talking about. This was a good debate, but I have no facts for me to continue. I thank you.

(this wasn't meant to be sarcastic.)

[Spirited Away]

True, they were Deists, but that higher power that you are talking aobut was God, they didn't believe in the same things as modern Chrsitians do, but they still believed in God, just not the same way. They still based everything on the bible. Where do you think our government got some of our laws from? They got them from the 10 Commandments. Therefore, our country or laws are based on the bible.

No. Wrong. This is what I posted in the Ten Commandments thread. Basically, they based everything on the hope for religious freedom. Have fun.

Very well, lets take a religious historical approach. For the sake of relevancy, lets keep out other reasons why people migrate to America.

Why did the religious feel a need to come to America? Was it not for relgious freedom? Was it not to get away from those who would persecute them for practicing their faith different from what the King or the Church decree?

There is no doubt in my mind that religious belief played a major part in the history and founding of America. But why did people come to the Americas to practice religion? Would you agree with me if I say that it was because they have more spiritual freedom?

Christianity was the smaller picture. Religious freedom was, and still is, the bigger picture. Christianity was simply the faith of those who wished for religious freedom in America. They believed in Christianity but they SOUGHT FREEDOM of RELIGIOUS PRACTICE.

So to respond to your comment, the historical impact is not Christianity, it is the finding of religious freedom. Thus, our First Amendment does NOT say that we have freedom to practice Christianity, it says we simply have religious freedom.
Does the Ten Commandments promote religous freedom and seperation of Church and State to you? If so, tell me how.
If your school puts up DARE signs, is the school not promoting anti-drugs? If super markets put up ads for $0.35/lb bananas are they not promoting the buying of bananas? If your DPS puts up a "DRUNK DRIVING KILLS" sign, are they not promoting a neg. consequence of drunk driving?

More examples:
If your neighborhood have a "neighborhood watch" sign, is your neigborhood not promoting safety, awareness, and cooperation between neighbors?

Does not "Don't Mess With Texas" not promote the stop to litering?

When the bumper sticker on your car says "Pray for our troops", does that not promote support of our army?

You get the idea.

So now, if our government decides to engrave the Ten Commandments into its facilities they ARE promoting Christianity over other religions.

edit> Late to realize debate was already over.

This post has been edited by Spirited Away: Oct 28 2005, 07:38 PM

[murderous_though...]

I dont know how the debate got shifted to the 10 Commandments...they were around for over 2000 years before Christianity originated. Christianity started (obviously) with Christ, and it was Moses who got the 10 Commandments from God...ya know, when they left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years? Yeah, waaayyyy before Christ was even born. To be more accurate, the 10 Commandments would be based more in the Jewish religion, who don't even believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The 10 Commandments don't really have that much to do with Christianity itself. When they were made, kids could be stoned to DEATH for disrespecting their parents...Christianity changed that. Let's try to keep the debate about what it was originally, ok? lol, thnx everybody. Oh btw, disco infiltrator, i absolutely LOVE reading your posts!!! Even if i completely disagree, you're incredibly smart and i love how can change how i feel about things half the time. keep it up!!

[Genuine_Essence]

Hmmm....thats a tough one

[*disco infiltrator*]

I dont know how the debate got shifted to the 10 Commandments...they were around for over 2000 years before Christianity originated.  Christianity started (obviously) with Christ, and it was Moses who got the 10 Commandments from God...ya know, when they left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years? Yeah, waaayyyy before Christ was even born.  To be more accurate, the 10 Commandments would be based more in the Jewish religion, who don't even believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.  The 10 Commandments don't really have that much to do with Christianity itself.  When they were made, kids could be stoned to DEATH for disrespecting their parents...Christianity changed that.  Let's try to keep the debate about what it was originally, ok?  lol, thnx everybody.  Oh btw, disco infiltrator, i absolutely LOVE reading your posts!!! Even if i completely disagree, you're incredibly smart and i love how can change how i feel about things half the time. keep it up!!

Aw..thanks. Heh.

Hmm, I don't know about you, but I don't think Christians are the only ones not beating their kids.....or the ones who changed this. At all. Just..a point.

Anyway. If anything, I think the constitution is being twisted TOWARDS the Christian right. How is it against Christianity or limiting Christianity at all? I go to school and even my teachers are giving me Christian influences. In my French class, we have every sort of debate possible, even on religion. In Biology last year, we had a Creationism vs. Evolution debate and trust me - there were some people who were definitely trying to fit their evangelism in there. (Also some people who thought they were such good Bible-reading Christians, trying to tell our Bio teacher about Noah's Ark, in turn causing him to whip out a Bible and correct every little detail about their little story. It was really funny. For example, the kids all said the ark was supposed to fit 700 animals, though the Bible said 40. So how is evolution disproved if we have sooo many more then 40 different kinds of animals? Humdeedum..) So, I really don't see how Christianity is trying to be pulled out based on the Constitution.

[sikdragon]

Evolution is a scientific theory and doesn't have any part in religion, nor is it connected to any religious belief. Therefore, you learn it in science class, because it is science.

The theory of evolution isn't learned so that we know history, it is learned so that we may better understand the scientific method of explaining things.

Because then it seems as if they are living in a Christian country where they must be Christian. This is not a Christian country. This is a country with freedom of religion. If the Ten Commandments is posted all over government buildings, does it not make it seem like Christianity is the only way for Americans? That's how it comes off to me.

Well, if christianity was understood it shouldnt offend you. Christianity in truth teaches acceptance of all, not just all Christians. To live in a Christian country would be great for anyone. There would be safety, unlocked doors, concern and love for your fellow man. Religion is the only fault i find with Christianity. In the name of religion, there've been men throughout the ages claiming their own justice in the name of God(whichever name they so chose). The ten commandments aren't a threat to anyone, they're a more in depth version of the hammurabi code and other similar writings. It's a historical document. History is neither helped, hindered, or mentioned in the constitution and should therefore be allowed to be posted on any wall, until the day when it's ammended.

How would you feel that instead of posting the Ten Commandments, we posted passages from the Torah? Or maybe, atheist reasonings outside government facilities?

And, as a matter of fact, our country was not founded by Christians. They went away from England to get away from religious persectuion. They were Deists, meaning they believed in a higher power, but not Christians.

The ten commandments are in the Torah. The founders of America were mostly Christians, with very few exceptions. There is no evidence to support your wild claims. Benjamin Franklin was the oldest at the ratification of the Constitution. That 31 year old man saw the quarreling and suggested they pray. All of them prayed and a few days later the constitution was ratified.

But it can certainly appear to non-Christians that the government is advocating a particular religion, which is disrespecting the beliefs of our Founding Fathers as well.

I ask: why is it so important that the Ten Commandments be placed in a courthouse? Christians have plenty of places to worship, in public and in private. They are hardly a persecuted group of people in America. Is there a need for Christian symbols to be everywhere?

The ten commandments is a historical look at law. The courthouse deciphers the intent of the law.

Aw..thanks. Heh.

Hmm, I don't know about you, but I don't think Christians are the only ones not beating their kids.....or the ones who changed this. At all. Just..a point.

Anyway. If anything, I think the constitution is being twisted TOWARDS the Christian right. How is it against Christianity or limiting Christianity at all? I go to school and even my teachers are giving me Christian influences. In my French class, we have every sort of debate possible, even on religion. In Biology last year, we had a Creationism vs. Evolution debate and trust me - there were some people who were definitely trying to fit their evangelism in there. (Also some people who thought they were such good Bible-reading Christians, trying to tell our Bio teacher about Noah's Ark, in turn causing him to whip out a Bible and correct every little detail about their little story. It was really funny. For example, the kids all said the ark was supposed to fit 700 animals, though the Bible said 40. So how is evolution disproved if we have sooo many more then 40 different kinds of animals? Humdeedum..) So, I really don't see how Christianity is trying to be pulled out based on the Constitution.

The ACLU and other groups are attacking Christian rights.

The bible did not say 40 kinds. It says clean animals were to be taken by seven's, unclean animals by two's, and fowls of the air by seven's.

Another point, Evangelism isn't wrong. Bible thumping is and there is a huge difference.

I dont know how the debate got shifted to the 10 Commandments...they were around for over 2000 years before Christianity originated. Christianity started (obviously) with Christ, and it was Moses who got the 10 Commandments from God...ya know, when they left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years? Yeah, waaayyyy before Christ was even born. To be more accurate, the 10 Commandments would be based more in the Jewish religion, who don't even believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The 10 Commandments don't really have that much to do with Christianity itself. When they were made, kids could be stoned to DEATH for disrespecting their parents...Christianity changed that.

That is pretty good; however, the stoning of children for such menial charges is a gross misinterpretation of the Torah, and can be blamed on the religious leaders of the time.

The American Constitution, ratified in the 1780s, is a set of laws that make sure the people have certain rights and protections. The first ammendment, part of which includes the freedom of religion has been twisted into a supression of religion. It says that the government will not establish any specific religion, meaning nationally. It also encompasses the fact that the government will not punish someone because of their religion, but certain people have twisted it into now we cant even speak about religion in schools or government buildings...do you think this is right? or should we be able to talk about God (whoever yours may be) and Christmas instead of X-mas?

I believe the thinking currently being used today in the assassination of Christianity is contradictory. Tolerance, is what they preach. Yet, they do not tolerate those that preach love. The cause of this is the worship of man's agenda. The only stick in the mud is the loving community of Christ's followers, because of their morality. Morals are the enemy in their eyes. A christian will call clean, clean and unclean, unclean. The attackers would and do call everything slightly soiled. These beliefs combat because of the Christian's inability to tolerate the evil acts of men. Therefore, they are called haters of the cause. The Christian's beliefs aren't under fire, it's the Christian existance. Sounds kind of like the middle east and Israel, doesn't it?

[Spirited Away]

Well, if christianity was understood it shouldnt offend you. Christianity in truth teaches acceptance of all, not just all Christians. To live in a Christian country would be great for anyone. There would be safety, unlocked doors, concern and love for your fellow man. Religion is the only fault i find with Christianity. In the name of religion, there've been men throughout the ages claiming their own justice in the name of God(whichever name they so chose). The ten commandments aren't a threat to anyone, they're a more in depth version of the hammurabi code and other similar writings. It's a historical document. History is neither helped, hindered, or mentioned in the constitution and should therefore be allowed to be posted on any wall, until the day when it's ammended.

Buddhism teaches the same about acceptance and there is no need to spread the religion as a Christian's need to evangelize. In a Buddhist society, there would no such thing as greed, hatred, and anger...etc, thus, there would be no need for locked doors nor fear for the safety our our families and Man. To live in a Buddhist society would be great for everyone. Even as a religion, Buddhism has never, in history, initiated wars nor been used by man to fight against man. Not many major religions of our time may claim the same peaceful history. The sacred texts of Buddhism are also historical in nature. Why would there be a need to murder if there is no hatred or anger? Why steal, when there is no greed? Why bear false witness against your neighbor when there is no desire to harm?

Though, I can agree with Commandments 5-10, but why 1-4? There isn't a need for them in a religiously free country. There is no point for an Atheist or an Agnostic to suffer the command "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". If the Supreme Court condones it, ALL non-Christians would be guilty of believing otherwise! Why must we suffer this guilt by Christians' standards? And since it would be sacrilege to post only half of the Commandments, there is no need to post them at all.

The ten commandments are in the Torah. The founders of America were mostly Christians, with very few exceptions. There is no evidence to support your wild claims. Benjamin Franklin was the oldest at the ratification of the Constitution. That 31 year old man saw the quarreling and suggested they pray. All of them prayed and a few days later the constitution was ratified.

So was the goal of finding America, on a religious perspective, to make it Christian country, or was to make a religiously free country?

[sikdragon]

1. They aren't the laws we follow, they are the laws by which our laws are founded. 1-4 have to do with individual choice. You cannot govern thoughts. It's impossible and thus, are not applied in worldly courts.

2.Religiously free country. Not a country without religion. There is a difference.

3.How come government officials aren't free to express themselves? They're free too, are they not?

[Spirited Away]

1. They aren't the laws we follow, they are the laws by which our laws are founded. 1-4 have to do with individual choice. You cannot govern thoughts. It's impossible and thus, are not applied in worldly courts.

2.Religiously free country. Not a country without religion. There is a difference.

3.How come government officials aren't free to express themselves? They're free too, are they not?

1) A strong belief by which our laws are founded is "seperation of Church and State". Also, in America, there is no law above the Constitution, spiritual or not, and religious opinions are not to be promoted by the government. These establishments in the law protect what you called "INDIVIDUAL CHOICE". The law cannot govern thoughts, but it may protect them. Though, one thing I'm curious about is calling something a 'commandment', but leave it to individuals to decide to follow the command. And why, if 1-4 are not applied in worldly courts, should they be posted at all?

I should also mention, that to claim that our laws are founded upon the words of God while the Constitution holds no mention of God is very presumptuous.

2) No, indeed. This country has many religions because it was founded on the principle of religious freedom. So again, was the goal of finding America, on a religious perspective, to make it Christian country, or was to make a religiously free country? The answer is obvious.

3) That is the same as asking why are teachers not allowed to give their own political opinions in the classrooms and I'm sure you know the answer already. The laws the government officials swore to protect are those of the Constitution. If government officials are in a position to make America a Christian (or any other religion) country, it would put the Constitution in jepardy. And though they are free to go to church, they may not turn where they work into a church. Some work places do it, if they are a private company.