is this suicide justified?, 85 year old man shoots himself Options

[illumineering]

An 85 year-old man committed suicide in my town last week. His wife died about 4 years ago from cancer. His daugher-in-law died 6 years ago from cancer. His son had a heart attack and died last week. His only living relatives were his only son's 2 children. They asked him to move near them so they could be closer together. They said they would build him a house near them in Philadelphia so they could take care of him.

After he buried his son, he took his dog to the kennel the next day, returned home, and shot himself.

Was this man justified in doing this? Is this an overreaction to a difficult situation that he could have accepted over time? Was he placing his grandchildren under a more difficult situation because he was feeling sorry for himself? When his granddaughter found out, she almost miscarried her baby because she was so emotional. Doesn't the bible say suicide is a sin? (He was a Christian.)

Because he didn't want to burden anyone and had lost everyone that he was close to, was his decision acceptable? Let's face it, the best years of his life were over and he has the right to decide when and how he should leave this earth. His actions should be respected.

I'm having a hard time resolving this. Although I can respect his right to decide what he wants to do with his life, I also feel that his actions were somewhat selfish.

What do you think?

[sadolakced acid]

everyone has the right to kill themselves.

[Mulder]

well....theres no law against someone trying to kill themselves....so...im not sure what were supposed to debate. the religious view? ok.....most religions say you shouldn't because you'll go to hell. im not religious though.

i dont think someone can decide whether a suicide is justified...but for this guy..he lost everyone he loved....and he wanted to be with them. id probably do the same thing.

[sadolakced acid]

^ the only reason religions make suicide wrong is because dead people can't "spread jesus's word and do his work." spread the faith thier religion. peace.

[queen]

weakling ;x

[Spirited Away]

^ he is 85. how many seniors that age are strong? well... seeing how young people suicide all the time... i guess age doesn't matter.

[Paradox of Life]

Why would you be thinking about this? He's already dead. Don't try to justify everyone's every move. So what if suicide is a sin? A book or religion should not be holding you back from making decisions that could better affect YOU. I think his actions were justified. Moreso than the mopey teenagers that commit suicide because of stupid things.

[illumineering]

Isn't he bound by his Christian ideals to not kill himself? When he was baptized, wasn't he accepting everything his Creator put before him? Isn't he breaking a rule and therefore subject to "judgement" because of his actions?

[Paradox of Life]

He's dead now. Whatever God planned to happen to him will happen to him. I hope he rests in peace though.

[*mipadi*]

well....theres no law against someone trying to kill themselves

Actually, many areas do have laws prohibiting suicide. In fact, even as late as the 1970s, those guilty of attempted suicide could be placed in jail; attempted suicide is rarely prosecuted anymore, though, and if it is, the guilty party is usually given court-ordered psychiatric care, not jail time.

[jadedseed]

He had the right to plan his death; there was nothing more for him... notthing was left for him anymore. He watched everyone he loved die slowly through cancer and heart troubles. So why couldn't he take his life and end it now before it got too painful and by then maybe no one would be there. I don't agree with what he did, and I don't feel sorry for him because it was a choice he made that was selfish and merely passed on his worries to another. But in an emotional and irrational mind, it was justified to him, and we should respect his feelings.

It might seem sacrilegious to say this but… the way I see it, even Jesus let himself die to realize burden from this world. Even if it cost the anguish of his mother who knew he had to inevitably die. So maybe, just maybe that old man wanted to relieve the burden of 3 people now... Rather than tomorrow

[lKVNiiKINKYl]

people lose sight of hope easy
not to sound cruel but i mean pull your freaking self together
a lot of people close to you have died but how does it make u feel
now imagine everyone you know feeling that when they lose you

[sadolakced acid]

who said he was christian?

[Paradox of Life]

Actually, many areas do have laws prohibiting suicide. In fact, even as late as the 1970s, those guilty of attempted suicide could be placed in jail; attempted suicide is rarely prosecuted anymore, though, and if it is, the guilty party is usually given court-ordered psychiatric care, not jail time.

That's retarded. People no longer have freedom of choice. The laws and government now forbid them to do what they thing is best for themselves. I might just commit suicide for that.

[illumineering]

who said he was christian?

I did. He was a Baptist.

[Shana_Kru]

Honestly i think its just a selfish act when you kill your self your just thinking about your self and not how its going to effect anyone else.

[sadolakced acid]

I did.  He was a Baptist.

oh right.

Honestly i think its just a selfish act when you kill your self your just thinking about your self and not how its going to effect anyone else.

who, might i ask, would it have affected negitivley?

[Shana_Kru]

who, might i ask, would it have affected negitivley?

ummm he sed that sum1 had a miscarraige from the stress...and his grandsons wud hav bin upset an its not like they were horrible and didnt love him they asked him to move closer...

[sadolakced acid]

ummm he sed that sum1 had a miscarraige from the stress...and his grandsons wud hav bin upset an its not like they were horrible and didnt love him they asked him to move closer...

almost.

and you know that in thier hearts they were secretly relieved. noone wants to take care of a depressed old man.

[Shana_Kru]

^ you cant assume something that wasnt said thay may have really loved him...

[illumineering]

^ you cant assume something that wasnt said thay may have really loved him...

They did love him deeply.

[Olive]

They did love him deeply.

and if he gave a shite about them, he wouldn't have killed himself

[lbjshaq2345]

no suicide is justified

[illumineering]

and if he gave a shite about them, he wouldn't have killed himself 

If you've ever experienced the kind of losses he did, you would know that was not the point. Read the first post again.

[Shana_Kru]

like sum1 else said no suicide can be justified. he knew what it felt like for ppl he loved to die then he went and made ppl hes suppose to love feel exactly the same way wen he took his own life..

[illumineering]

like sum1 else said no suicide can be justified. he knew what it felt like for ppl he loved to die then he went and made ppl hes suppose to love feel exactly the same way wen he took his own life..

I don't agree that it is given that anyone would respond to his death the way he chose to when his family members died. We have freewill to choose how we feel about the circumstances of our lives.

Viktor Frankl was a survivor of the Holocaust and the Nazi death camps. When the war was over he founded a school of psychological thought called logotherapy. Briefly stated, he found that people can survive the most intense suffering and treatment if they realize that no matter what happens to them, they always remain able to choose how they feel about any given situation. People can always transend their circumstances and find meaning.

We are given freewill to choose how we live our lives. Given the fact the he killed himself demonstrates the ability to not only justify suicide, but also commit it. Commiting the act is the inherent justification.

[Olive]

If you've ever experienced the kind of losses he did, you would know that was not the point.  Read the first post again.

Acutally, I have problems likewise to what happened to this fellow. Im pretty sure, everyone suffers loss and depression at some stage. I nearly killed someone with pot and felt so guilty I felt the need to die. In the most difficult and helpless times, someone saved me because they needed me in their life. Exactly what the point would be, is the old man's choice. He chose to end his life for what ever reason. What loss to him could be greater than his own life? But nevermind, it seems you've made up your mind already.

[illumineering]

Acutally, I have problems likewise to what happened to this fellow. Im pretty sure, everyone suffers loss and depression at some stage. I nearly killed someone with pot and felt so guilty I felt the need to die. In the most difficult and helpless times, someone saved me because they needed me in their life. Exactly what the point would be, is the old man's choice. He chose to end his life for what ever reason. What loss to him could be greater than his own life? But nevermind, it seems you've made up your mind already.

While I'm sorry for the suffering that you experienced, I don't quite understand your post. The losses that were greater than his own life are that of his son and wife. I don't see the parallel to your experience. There was no one that needed him; everyone who did was dead.

If you read the entire thread including the initial post, you would realize I haven't made up my mind.

[Olive]

While I'm sorry for the suffering that you experienced, I don't quite understand your post.  The losses that were greater than his own life are that of his son and wife.  I don't see the parallel to your experience.  There was no one that needed him; everyone who did was dead. 

If you read the entire thread including the initial post, you would realize I haven't made up my mind.

It seems you're only thinking about how he feels. There are much more things in life to consider before ending it. Other people it will effect, for instance. From what you have said, he had other living relatives that cared to share their time with him, however, he rejected that offer and suicide was the last option he chose upon. Like him, suicide came into my mind quite often when I was younger and more ignorant. So what exactly is proven once you're dead? Narrow minded-ness that your depressive troubles is worth more than anyone else. Its a tragedy he died, but the act of suicide is simply murder.

[illumineering]

It seems you're only thinking about how he feels. There are much more things in life to consider before ending it. Other people it will effect, for instance. From what you have said, he had other living relatives that cared to share their time with him, however, he rejected that offer and suicide was the last option he chose upon. Like him, suicide came into my mind quite often when I was younger and more ignorant. So what exactly is proven once you're dead? Narrow minded-ness that your depressive troubles is worth more than anyone else. Its a tragedy he died, but the act of suicide is simply murder.

How he felt is of critical importance. You even eluded to your feelings in your initial post. He did consider other things...he put his affairs in order and took his dog to the kennel.

He wasn't a young person like you were, he was 85 and rapidly losing his ability to care for himself. Why do you think he was trying to prove something? This was not a case of claiming "ownership" of his life or ultimate control. He wasn't proving anything in that sense.

This is the MSN Encarta definition of murder

crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law

I don't understand your use of the term.

[Olive]

it was a planned suicide? If he claimed all "control" over his life, i have to agree with your first post, he is selfish. What is the excuse of not being able to care for himself when others want to help him? There are people in this world who are born with disabilities, suffer from cancer and diseases who struggle to live, and if he is unable to see how lucky he is, its pretty sad. And if you re-read your definition of murder, in killing himself, he destroyed a life.

[zepfel]

i use the logic that if i ever wanted to commit suicide, i feel that i should be allowed to.

thus, we shouldn't judge others, not knowing the full extent of their problems.

[Olive]

zepfel, if your best friend held a gun in his head moping in self-pity and wanted to shoot himself, Will you let him or stand there and feel sorry for his "problems"?

Maybe this is why suicide is such a large cause of death.

[Paradox of Life]

Suicide is such a terrible thing because it hurts others. If I had a son that shot himself to death, I would feel guilty for the rest of my life. I would keep thinking I'm a terrible mother. I wouldn't be able to live MY life the way I wanted to and I may even resort to drugs or alcohol to drown my sorrows. And eventually fall into depression and commit suicide myself. It's easy to think that it's their choice to commit suicide, but they don't know what kind of problems their close friends or relatives will have to go through. Maybe they weren't good enough friends to keep him alive. And that thought could linger over them the rest of their lives.

[zepfel]

zepfel, if your best friend held a gun in his head moping in self-pity and wanted to shoot himself, Will you let him or stand there and feel sorry for his "problems"?

Maybe this is why suicide is such a large cause of death.

my best friend is dead.

no not really, but he certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun!


anyhow, unlike the situation which you use, i'm thinking more from a euthanasia/planned suicide point of view. i doubt you could ever change anybody's reaction to the situation you present.

[technicolour]

Damn, if only Minority Report is true.

But anyways..he was over-reacting. Seriously. Him shootinghimself is going to harm the other 2 kids lives, and just, seriously.


But then again most suicides are done because of the smallest things.

[HiddenSmile]

I don't agree that it is given that anyone would respond to his death the way he chose to when his family members died.  We have freewill to choose how we feel about the circumstances of  our lives.

Viktor Frankl was a survivor of the Holocaust and the Nazi death camps.  When the war was over he founded a school of psychological thought called logotherapy.  Briefly stated, he found that people can survive the most intense suffering and treatment if they realize that no matter what happens to them, they always remain able to choose how they feel about any given situation. People can always transend their circumstances and find meaning.

We are given freewill to choose how we live our lives.  Given the fact the he killed himself demonstrates the ability to not only justify suicide, but also commit it.  Commiting the act is the inherent justification.

O.K. well, first..... him killing himself doesn't mean that suicide can be justified, his mind's twisted way of thinking put him in a state of despair and told him that suicide was the only option left, when it most obviously wasn't, he still had ppl who loved him, those grandsons (or w/e they were) loved him, Im sure he had friends.. suicide is never the only option. People have lived through much worse, without resorting to suicide in the end, what makes this man so special?

[sadolakced acid]

good idea.

we should make suicide illegal. and punishable by death.

whoopie!

or, because jesus christ wills it, we'll put everyone in a sustained coma so they can't commit suicide! hell yea!

[technicolour]

good idea.

we should make suicide illegal.  and punishable by death.

whoopie!

Alright. I'll write my local congressman.

[illumineering]

O.K. well, first..... him killing himself doesn't mean that suicide can be justified, his mind's twisted way of thinking put him in a state of despair and told him that suicide was the only option left, when it most obviously wasn't, he still had ppl who loved him, those grandsons (or w/e they were) loved him, Im sure he had friends.. suicide is never the only option. People have lived through much worse, without resorting to suicide in the end, what makes this man so special?

The act of suicide is the inherent justification. When making a decision about our individual lives, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. We need to be at peace in our own minds about our actions and decisions. Actually, his actions reflected a great deal of forethought and planning. He closed his son's affairs, put his dog in a kennel and completed his daily chores. If he was making a "twisted" decision, he would have done things in a more irrational manner.

It is obvious that suicide is not the only option. It was, on the other hand, the one he chose. What makes him "special" is his right to exercise his freewill.

Don't assume my comments are an endorsement of his actions.

[HiddenSmile]

The act of suicide is the inherent justification.  When making a decision about our individual lives, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  We need to be at peace in our own minds about our actions and decisions.  Actually, his actions reflected a great deal of forethought and planning.  He closed his son's affairs, put his dog in a kennel and completed his daily chores.  If he was making a "twisted" decision, he would have done things in a more irrational manner.

It is obvious that suicide is not the only option.  It was, on the other hand, the one he chose.  What makes him "special" is his right to exercise his freewill. 

Don't assume my comments are an endorsement of his actions.

O.K. so basically, you're saying, if I think it will be better for me to kill my neighbor, with a knife (just thought I'd add that ), because he's annoying me, or making me sad, that that justifies my actions. Wow, I've totally seen the light, thanks alot.

[HiddenSmile]

Whoops, double post, sorry.

[zepfel]

why should others decide when i end my life?

it's my life. i should be able to decide exactly what i do with it (you know i don't mean murdering people here).

"f**k everyone who says they love me, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end my life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option." yet you say i should not be able to do this?
if i wanted to quit my job (i'm not supporting anyone with the job, just me) and live on a desert island alone and secluded from everybody else for the rest of my life, i wouldn't be stopped. why can't my lifestyle choice be not to have a lifestyle?

[illumineering]

O.K. so basically, you're saying, if I think it will be better for me to kill my neighbor, with a knife (just thought I'd add that ), because he's annoying me, or making me sad, that that justifies my actions. Wow, I've totally seen the light, thanks alot.

What are you talking about? The fact that he did it is the inhernt justification. That does not imply or suggest an endorsement of his action as I said before.

[HiddenSmile]

why should others decide when i end my life?

it's my life. i should be able to decide exactly what i do with it (you know i don't mean murdering people here).

"f**k everyone who says they love me, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end my life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option." yet you say i should not be able to do this?
if i wanted to quit my job (i'm not supporting anyone with the job, just me) and live on a desert island alone and secluded from everybody else for the rest of my life, i wouldn't be stopped. why can't my lifestyle choice be not to have a lifestyle?

Well, you could say the same thing about murdering someone... "f**k everyone who says they love him, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end his life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option."

What are you talking about? The fact that he did it is the inhernt justification. That does not imply or suggest an endorsement of his action as I said before.

I didn't say it did, but what you ARE saying is that just because someone did something "inheritly justifies" it.

[zepfel]

O.K. so basically, you're saying, if I think it will be better for me to kill my neighbor, with a knife (just thought I'd add that ), because he's annoying me, or making me sad, that that justifies my actions. Wow, I've totally seen the light, thanks alot.

ive read and reread this post, but i cannot for the life of me work out how you came up with this. it makes ridiculously little sense, and i have no idea where it came from.

[Skyline Drive]

everyone has the right to kill themselves.

I agree.

I also think it's pretty messed up that the government takes money from you when you die. Damn those bastards.

[illumineering]

Well, you could say the same thing about murdering someone... "f**k everyone who says they love him, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end his life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option."
I didn't say it did, but what you ARE saying is that just because someone did something "inheritly justifies" it.

Yes, it's clear that the commision of an act is an inherent justification. For the man that committed suicide that is obvious, otherwise he would have made a different choice. That does not suggest I am personaly condoning or condemning his action.

An external judgement by an outside observer is a different issue. This issue is not about murdering another person. It does involve the inherent right of an individual to determine how and when their own life should end.

[Mulder]

i think after all that happened to him, he had the right to be selfish. he lost everything, everyone he cared about. he had no reason to stay alive.... maybe he wanted to be with his dead wife and son....is that really so selfish? to want to be with your loved ones again? i can honestly say that i would do the same thing.

[zepfel]

Well, you could say the same thing about murdering someone... "f**k everyone who says they love him, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end his life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option."

but it's my life! you're missing the point here, i don't want to murder somebody, i want to take my own life! it's MINE. i want to die, i should be allowed to die.


hypothetically, of course.

[HiddenSmile]

but it's my life! you're missing the point here, i don't want to murder somebody, i want to take my own life! it's MINE. i want to die, i should be allowed to die.
hypothetically, of course.

Well, technically our lives are gifts... (from my point of view, it depends on what you believe) so would you take a really nice gift that someone gave you and throw it off a cliff, or shoot it, even though you dont really like it, or its tough to handle?

[zepfel]

Well, technically our lives are gifts... (from my point of view, it depends on what you believe) so would you take a really nice gift that someone gave you and throw it off a cliff, or shoot it, even though you dont really like it, or its tough to handle?

in all fairness, ive got decades worth of use out of this gift. it's not like i opened the package and said "that's horrible, i don't want it."

[sadolakced acid]

if killing yourself is murder,

then is mastrubation raping yourself?
is tattooing and piering tourturing yourself?
is eating forcefeeding yourself?
is looking at yourself naked in the mirror child pornography?
is taking medication posioning yourself?

[Olive]

my best friend is dead.

no not really, but he certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun!
anyhow, unlike the situation which you use, i'm thinking more from a euthanasia/planned suicide point of view. i doubt you could ever change anybody's reaction to the situation you present.

im sorry to hear of your best friend. But in such issues of suicide, standing from someone else's shoes is more painful then the person committing the suicide – that is, to relieve themselves but to put their problems onto other people.

in all fairness, ive got decades worth of use out of this gift. it's not like i opened the package and said "that's horrible, i don't want it."

But as soon as suicide kicks in, thats exactly what it is - "horrible, dont want it". Life is so precious, yet so many abuse it by giving up.

i think after all that happened to him, he had the right to be selfish. he lost everything, everyone he cared about. he had no reason to stay alive.... maybe he wanted to be with his dead wife and son....is that really so selfish? to want to be with your loved ones again? i can honestly say that i would do the same thing.

Its selfish in the fact that he only worried about his own needs of comfort.
But death was not what he needed at that time, he needed psychiatric help to relieve his depressive behavior. It may sound harsh, but death isn’t a solution, it’s a chicken way out.

if killing yourself is murder,

then is mastrubation raping yourself?
is tattooing and piering tourturing yourself?
is eating forcefeeding yourself? 
is looking at yourself naked in the mirror child pornography?
is taking medication posioning yourself?

That’s exaggerated and very unreasonable, what exactly are you trying to imply? That killing yourself is like every other daily task you very well perform? If everyone thinks there is no murder in ‘killing yourself’, this world would be suicidal.

but it's my life! you're missing the point here, i don't want to murder somebody, i want to take my own life! it's MINE. i want to die, i should be allowed to die.
hypothetically, of course.

the keywords to the suicidal mind: “I, my, mine, me”
Of course you have every “control” over how you wish to kill yourself. I’m sure no body else matters. [/sarcasm]

[Paradox of Life]

Why does suicide have to be justified and why are laws interfering with peoples' LIVES?

[illumineering]

Why does suicide have to be justified and why are laws interfering with peoples' LIVES?

I was asking the question because it not only voilates the laws of many states, it's also a violation of the principles of Christianity. (He was Baptist.)

My understanding is that the law interferes because people in a suicidal state are unable to adequately care for themselves, therefore, the state has a responsibility to step in and intervene on behalf of the person who would harm himself/herself.

[sadolakced acid]

so let me get this straight. killing yourself is murder.... why?

and if you're going to say something about the peopl he left behind....

well it's his wife's fault for dying.
everyone who dies, that's thier fault.

imagine everyone you know. now imagine them all dead.

does life look worth it?

now, the purpose of life is to have sex. he's already done this, and at 85 it's very unlikely he'll do it again.

therefore, he's completed his duty to the human race, and so is not obligated to live.

[illumineering]

now, the purpose of life is to have sex.  he's already done this, and at 85 it's very unlikely he'll do it again.

therefore, he's completed his duty to the human race, and so is not obligated to live.

[Olive]

so let me get this straight.  killing yourself is murder....  why?

if it has not been said more simpler, killing is destroying life. And in doing so, suicide destroys life. In which case, the person - dies. The victim here, is not the one who commits the suicide, but those in which remains affected by it.

now, the purpose of life is to have sex.  

wtf? haha.. did your penis say that? theres more to life than sex, unless you prefer to die after you performed this "duty and obligation", then do not assume an old man can not have sexual intercourse.. again however disturbing that may sound.
Life does not revolve around sex, please think beyond your pants before arguing next that your life = sex.

[HiddenSmile]

if it has not been said more simpler, killing is destroying life. And in doing so, suicide destroys life. In which case, the person - dies. The victim here, is not the one who commits the suicide, but those in which remains affected by it.
wtf? haha.. did your penis say that?  theres more to life than sex, unless you prefer to die after you performed this "duty and obligation", then do not assume an old man can not have sexual intercourse.. again however disturbing that may sound.
Life does not revolve around sex, please think beyond your pants before arguing next that your life = sex.

I agree with this person completely! Suicided is the destroying of life.

[sadolakced acid]

wtf? haha.. did your penis say that?  theres more to life than sex, unless you prefer to die after you performed this "duty and obligation", then do not assume an old man can not have sexual intercourse.. again however disturbing that may sound.
Life does not revolve around sex, please think beyond your pants before arguing next that your life = sex.

the only reason why any living thing is alive is to create more life.

it's a philosophical thing, you know.

if no one had sex, then humans would die out. so sex is very important, and it's the purpose of life. is to have sex and children andhave your children succeed.

[zepfel]

That’s exaggerated and very unreasonable, what exactly are you trying to imply? That killing yourself is like every other daily task you very well perform?

i think what they were trying to point out was that you cannot say that suicide is murder, but all other crimes, when applied to the self, are not bad in any way.
it has to either be: all normal crimes are still criminal when appied to the self
or
no crime is valid when applied to the self

If everyone thinks there is no murder in ‘killing yourself’, this world would be suicidal.

no, i very much doubt that. i'm sure that most people are not too bothered about the moral implications of suicide when they choose to commit it, if the government were to say "we support euthanasia" then there might be a few more people who might choose to die, but there certainly wouldn't be a landslide.

[demolished]

Honestly i think its just a selfish act when you kill your self your just thinking about your self and not how its going to effect anyone else.

and .. smoking too ?

Well, a person can be loved by people but not feel loved. People can feel that they arent good enough to be greatly loved by people. blab, i cant explain.




It's not really selfish, We're just living to died. puwahahaha.

[Olive]

no, i very much doubt that. i'm sure that most people are not too bothered about the moral implications of suicide when they choose to commit it,  if the government were to say "we support euthanasia" then there might be a few more people who might choose to die, but there certainly wouldn't be a landslide.

if people were not "too bothered about the moral implications of suicide" why do they even consider it or to some, change their minds? Sucide is morally wrong as is any other form of killing without purpose but to comfort self-needs.

the only reason why any living thing is alive is to create more life.

it's a philosophical thing, you know.

if no one had sex, then humans would die out.  so sex is very important, and it's the purpose of life.  is to have sex and children andhave your children succeed.

Good Lord! No, you are ill-informed. I thought this topic was on suicide, not your views on life... However, life's purpose is NOT sex regardless. Of course, it is one aspect of life which can happen. I think you mean sex can fulfill your hormones rather than fulfilling an entire lifetime. There are people who have never had sex and still feel the need for suicide. Sex is significant to the life-cycle but it is not the purpose. Suicide on the other hand, violates both this "moral duty" and if you would like to discuss the philosophy of suicide, here is what Plato said about suicide: "cowardice or laziness undertaken by individuals too delicate to manage life's vicissitudes". I don't see where sex comes in.

[sadolakced acid]

^ sex brings about life.

the purpose of life is to perpetuate life. thus, sex.

it's the reason for life, not the reason of life.
don't think i'm trying to say that there's no need to do anything but have sex then die.

i'm saying that that's the human's obligation to the species. he has grandkids- he's furfilled his obligation, he can die if he wishes.

[*mipadi*]

don't think i'm trying to say that there's no need to do anything but have sex then die.

But there is, of course, nothing wrong with that, either.

[Olive]

^  sex brings about life.

the purpose of life is to perpetuate life.  thus, sex.

it's the reason for life, not the reason of life.
don't think i'm trying to say that there's no need to do anything but have sex then die.

i'm saying that that's the human's obligation to the species.  he has grandkids- he's furfilled his obligation, he can die if he wishes.

Who made him God? Just because he was in the process of making life, gives him no right to destroy it. If you are the slightest Christian (which I doubt since you believe reason for life is sex) like this old man, you would know humans are God's property and that suicide violates the holy scriptures in the 10 commandments especially commandment 6 if i am not wrong which reads thus `thy shall not kill`. Thereby, killing oneself is like deciding your own destiny and no longer leaving that duty on God as your creator. That is not justifiable regardless of how many times he performed sex as he committed a wrongful sin, in which ended his existence therefore, giving up on any purposes of life.

[illumineering]

Who made him God? Just because he was in the process of making life, gives him no right to destroy it. If you are the slightest Christian (which I doubt since you believe reason for life is sex) like this old man, you would know humans are God's property and that suicide violates the holy scriptures in the 10 commandments especially commandment 6 if i am not wrong which reads thus `thy shall not kill`. Thereby, killing oneself is like deciding your own destiny and no longer leaving that duty on God as your creator. That is not justifiable regardless of how many times he performed sex as he committed a wrongful sin, in which ended his existence therefore, giving up on any purposes of life.

I was having a discussion with one of my dad's friends who is a Presbyterian minister. The discussion was based on Jesus dying for our sins. If that is truly the case, then the argument that by committing suicide, the man did no wrong because of the sacrafice Jesus made. All his suicide is under this interpretation is a simple individual choice he made that doesn't violate any commandment. If Jesus truly died for all of our sins, the above argument is invalid.

The other interpretation is that the sacrafice Jesus made is only vaild if we follow Him to the Father. That means of our own freewill we must come to God through Jesus. We are then responsible for following the rules of order established in scripture. It would follow that this suicide is a sinful act under this interpretation.

What's your opinion? This is an issue that I have a hard time resolving. It can validate either position with regard to this thread.

[Olive]

the man did no wrong because of the sacrafice Jesus made.  All his suicide is under this interpretation is a simple individual choice he made that doesn't violate any commandment. 

Jesus' sacrafice frees us from sin, it does not defend us from committing it. It did violate the commandment because despite being a Christian, he rejected the value of life.

Here is the Christian view:
Suicide is against God's will for us. This is rather simple to understand. God always wants what is best for us, so therefore He clearly tells us how we should live our lives so that we will experience the best relationship with Him and therefore the best life on earth and for eternity. Clearly, taking our own life would be contrary to God's best for us.
There are serious consequences in separation from God on earth and loss in eternity. Sin keeps us from experiencing the good life.

For the Christian that is seriously considering suicide, I would first question the reality of their conversion. Perhaps their faith is just something they inherited and is not really their own. For the person that has God in their heart, suicide is not a real option.

Non-Religious view:
However much I understand that reasons for suicide and I feel so bad for these people for thinking about ending their lives, I believe suicide shouldn't be an option. There is always another way out, there is always someone to turn to. There should be someone out there in the world that understands how loosing family members feels.

Pain can stop. Being dead can't.

I agree with this person completely! Suicide is the destroying of life.

Great minds think a-like Optimism and acceptance in fate however painful, is corageous. Suicide is inability to accept fate, therefore is not justified.
By the way, I love your signature!

[sadolakced acid]

Who made him God? Just because he was in the process of making life, gives him no right to destroy it. If you are the slightest Christian (which I doubt since you believe reason for life is sex) like this old man, you would know humans are God's property and that suicide violates the holy scriptures in the 10 commandments especially commandment 6 if i am not wrong which reads thus `thy shall not kill`. Thereby, killing oneself is like deciding your own destiny and no longer leaving that duty on God as your creator. That is not justifiable regardless of how many times he performed sex as he committed a wrongful sin, in which ended his existence therefore, giving up on any purposes of life.

thou shalt not kill.

ok, so that's why he shouldn't commit suicide?

oh but wait! chirstians have changed that so they can "kill the infidel", haven't they?

it's thou shalt not kill needlessly.

but this is a needful killing.

every man is god.

god is the only one with the power to decide fate. every man can kill another. every man is god.

[Olive]

thou shalt not kill.

ok, so that's why he shouldn't commit suicide?

oh but wait!  chirstians have changed that so they can "kill the infidel", haven't they?

it's thou shalt not kill needlessly.

but this is a needful killing. 

every man is god. 

god is the only one with the power to decide fate.  every man can kill another.  every man is god.

haha i don't know whether to be amused or highly disturbed.
I guess there's no point arguing about morality when your beliefs revolve around sex and being god.

I truely hope God does not smite you in your daily duties. Good Day.

[sweetabandon]

I believe in the freedom of choice. however, i also believe that his choice was very selfish towards his grandkids. if he didn't have anyone close to him, then it would've been okay to die. we live to love.

religion is only there to scare people from ever doing the bad things. there are so many rules to follow that it doesn't seem like a faith/belief anymore.

[lovebabygonebad]

i mean i wouldn't justify the suicide part, but the reasons as to why he did it is a good enough reason. A 85 year old feeling emotion is unusual. & the fact that he can feel emotion is great, but when an 85 year old feels emotions that he must have it is hard for him to deal with it at that age. so the only logical reason is to committ[sp?] suicide.

i mean if he was in tip-top shape, mentally & physically then thats a different story.

[Purplefender86]

no he still had living loving family members and a dog

[CarbiNe]

i think it is justified and he does have a much better reason than those teenagers who do it for stupid reasons. with all the sadness in his life i probably would of done the same. and it is his life he has the right on how to use it.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Any suicide is justified. If people really want to kill themselves, so be it. I don't care if it's a sin. You can't stop someone from killing themselves. Obviously they just don't wanna live anymore. It's not like you can arrest someone who's dead for killing themselves, not that it could be in any way a crime in the first place. It's your choice what to do with YOUR body.

[sadolakced acid]

haha i don't know whether to be amused or highly disturbed.
I guess there's no point arguing about morality when your beliefs revolve around sex and being god. 

I truely hope God does not smite you in your daily duties. Good Day.

how many times do i have to say this:
I DON"T ALWAYS ARGUE MY BELIEFS.

so look at it logically a second. i provided logical reasons. So instead of questioning my moral standing, refute them. cus if you don't do that, then the debate just isn't fun.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

haha i don't know whether to be amused or highly disturbed.
I guess there's no point arguing about morality when your beliefs revolve around sex and being god. 

I truely hope God does not smite you in your daily duties. Good Day.

Wait, why are you arguing over morality? The topic is about justicifcation, therefore, YES, it is justified as one is in control of one's destiny.

[Olive]

Wait, why are you arguing over morality?

Because he was Christian (read the first post) and Christian morals says suicide is not justified. By throwing away his life, he acted in cowardice against his own belief, disregarding everyone for self sympathy.

it is justified as one is in control of one's destiny

this argument has already been said... many times. But this world does not concern just the "one" person. Just because "one is in control" does NOT mean it is justified to the rest of us.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Any suicide is justified. If people really want to kill themselves, so be it. I don't care if it's a sin. You can't stop someone from killing themselves. Obviously they just don't wanna live anymore. It's not like you can arrest someone who's dead for killing themselves, not that it could be in any way a crime in the first place. It's your choice what to do with YOUR body.

There's your argument back, Olive.

[Olive]

the keywords to the suicidal mind: “I, my, mine, me”
Of course you have every “control” over how you wish to kill yourself. I’m sure no body else matters. [/sarcasm]

I like to quote myself too. Whats your point, Headphones?

[*disco infiltrator*]

Well, the debate isn't about Christianity, it's about if it's justified for everyone (not just Christians, since they don't dictate the morals of the world) and that was the point of my argument.

Who cares if they're selfish? People are selfish all the time.

[Olive]

Who cares if they're selfish? People are selfish all the time

Who cares? well lets see... his remaining relatives that had to LIVE through HIS death? SOME people are selfish all the time - doesn't that say something? Or do you think selfishness is also justified?

Well, the debate isn't about Christianity, it's about if it's justified for everyone (not just Christians, since they don't dictate the morals of the world) and that was the point of my argument.

Who ever said the debate was about Christianity dictating the morals of the world? However many of the principles you see in Christianity is applied to law. Therefore, the victim of this suicide is not the man, but the people affected by it, that is, his family. Re-read the last few pages if you don't understand the argument I placed on his beliefs. I see no need to repeat if your argument is based on YOUR beliefs, rather than the case of the man in the first post.

[illumineering]

My intent is to examine the the circumstances surrounding the specific suicide that started this thread. The age of the man, his religious beliefs and other information were added to provide enough information to substantiate a point-of-view that supports or rejects any potential justification. While any argument can be applied to a larger group of people as a litmus test of validity, as I stated previously, my intent was to examine this specific situation.

I am interested in not only how people view the topic starter, but the methodology, if any, used to substantiate a perspective. I hoped to elicit a range of responses that drew from any source of justification.

Thanks to everyone for reading and participating in this topic. It is a difficult issue to examine as it touches the heart of core religious, spiritual and personal beliefs. Even though I hold a personal view that may be contrary to the perspective of other people, I am nontheless enlightened by the collective voice that this thread is developing.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

Because he was Christian (read the first post) and Christian morals says suicide is not justified. By throwing away his life, he acted in cowardice against his own belief, disregarding everyone for self sympathy.

Well since you brought religion into the picture, thats a whole different story.

this argument has already been said... many times. But this world does not concern just the "one" person. Just because "one is in control" does NOT mean it is justified to the rest of us.

Well if everyone is in control of their own destiny, why shouldnt it not be justified? Yes, one does not equal everyone else, but everyone does have control of their lives.

[illumineering]

Well since you brought religion into the picture, thats a whole different story.

Well if everyone is in control of their own destiny, why shouldnt it not be justified? Yes, one does not equal everyone else, but everyone does have control of their lives.

I'm not positive, but Olive might be saying that Christianity prevents an adequate justification because he accepted the principles of that faith when he was baptized. Although we are individually in control of our destiny, the principles of his faith would nullify an attempt to support his actions. Again, this is only my unendorsed interpretation of her argument.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Well yes, but if Mr. John Smith from Nebraska kills himself, what difference does it make to Miss Olive?

If the person who kills themselves isn't a Christian and doesn't accept those morals, they sinned (to the Christian people, not to them). Yes, it will make some people sad, but so does relatives dying due to the death penalty. So does getting broken up with. If someone dies in a car crash, have they sinned because they make others sad?

[illumineering]

Well yes, but if Mr. John Smith from Nebraska kills himself, what difference does it make to Miss Olive?

If the person who kills themselves isn't a Christian and doesn't accept those morals, they sinned (to the Christian people, not to them). Yes, it will make some people sad, but so does relatives dying due to the death penalty. So does getting broken up with. If someone dies in a car crash, have they sinned because they make others sad?

While your point is valid, the man who is the subject of this thread was a Christian. Is he, as a result, bound by the principles of his faith to not kill himself?

I agree with your view of sadness/suffering. That is an individual choice that can be arbitrarily related to anything. It is up to the individual who defines any aspect of life in terms of sadness/suffering to liberate themselves from it, (if they choose) or be a victim of life and the inevitability of death.

[*disco infiltrator*]

I don't agree with religion, so I don't think religion should dictate your morals. You should dictate your morals. He obviously doesn't agree with the Christian morals, and, therefore, is not a Christian at heart, so that part of the argument doesn't matter.

[illumineering]

I don't agree with religion, so I don't think religion should dictate your morals. You should dictate your morals. He obviously doesn't agree with the Christian morals, and, therefore, is not a Christian at heart, so that part of the argument doesn't matter.

I understand and respect your individual view, but isn't his Christian faith anchored by a baptism? It seems to be too easy to say that it's OK because he was unable to meet the expectations of his faith.

My greater question/point is one of consequence. If there is an existence beyond life on earth, as many people believe, is there an outcome of his action that will effect the journey of his spirit? If you don't support the belief in an afterlife, this question is pointless.

[x3_mr_mak]

u cant just judge someone's actions by the story/news written. do u noe how he was treated as a person by his family? or how he viewed life and the afterlife? no one can say whether he was right or wrong based on secondary information. u can never noe the deceased man's story.

also, keep in mind that he is 85 years of age. most of his most-beloved relatives have passed away. i'm sure none of us have lived that long to witness so many deaths in our families. and note that his SON died also, which must have been a horrific shock. many people will give anything to die before their children. it is hard to see his point of view, so it's better NOT to judge him as a person with his suicide

[illumineering]

u cant just judge someone's actions by the story/news written. do u noe how he was treated as a person by his family? or how he viewed life and the afterlife? no one can say whether he was right or wrong based on secondary information. u can never noe the deceased man's story.

also, keep in mind that he is 85 years of age. most of his most-beloved relatives have passed away. i'm sure none of us have lived that long to witness so many deaths in our families. and note that his SON died also, which must have been a horrific shock. many people will give anything to die before their children. it is hard to see his point of view, so it's better NOT to judge him as a person with his suicide

This was never a story that reached the news. His son was a teacher of mine. His grandchildren are friends as well. We took vacations together when we were kids. My understanding of this tragic event is the result of my close relationship to his family.

Quit preaching when you are obviously unaware of the nature of my relationship to him and his family.

[sadolakced acid]

i think it should be considered selfish by his relatives that he remain alive when he wanted to be dead.

ever think of that spin on the whole selfishness arguement?

he wants to be dead. people don't want him to be dead because they selfishly want him to remain alive and miserable.

[illumineering]

he wants to be dead.  people don't want him to be dead because they selfishly want him to remain alive and miserable.

This is an interesting perspective. I'm having a hard time using suffering as a basis of his actions. Many people can identify with difficulties in life and live beyond their struggles. Care to elaborate on your idea?

[*xcaitlinx*]

actually, i don't feel comfortable debating about this. it's sad that this man had to go through all of those deaths, and we don't have the right to even blame him for doing such a thing. yes, suicide is wrong and can be prevented, but who knows? he's probably happier where he is now. it baffles me that you people can argue about this case when obviously none of you, including myself, have ever been put in that situation. the least you could do is feel bad for his family, who obviously have gone through enough already. so yeah. it'd be different if the topic was "is committing suicide wrong?" wow, i think everyone who is against this case should really reevaulate their lives and realize that they're LUCKY that they were never put into this situation whether to live or die.

[sadolakced acid]

This is an interesting perspective.  I'm having a hard time using suffering as a basis of his actions.  Many people can identify with difficulties in life and live beyond their struggles.  Care to elaborate on your idea?

well, what's the use of living older, if you have no one?

the only reason i would see tolive older would be to have someone to share it with. someone younger who sticks me in a room and goes off to work every day wouldn't be my idea of that.

if i found myself in the same situation i'd have done the same. except i'd have bought a motorcycle, and just ride it like everyone else. (brings me to a story- i'm driving on the interstate at 80 MPH and i'm changing lanes left and then this motorcycle blows by at like... 110 MPH and scare the shit out of me... i mean, i almost changed lanes into this guy... )

anyways: suicide seems wrong to people, but i mean, we're all going to die anyways. if someone chooses to remove some 15 years of their life that will probably be spent watching TV being depressed in a nursing home or someone's house (while, because of your presence thier marriage is falling apart and thier kids are growing rebellious)(which may or may not happen, depends), then surely living relatives can accept that reasoning, right?

i'm sure that his relatives knew he would die sooner or later, so why not let him pick sooner?

now picking for him would be wrong, but it is still his life, and although there are many other moral considerations, it does appear to still be his life.

[illumineering]

actually, i don't feel comfortable debating about this. it's sad that this man had to go through all of those deaths, and we don't have the right to even blame him for doing such a thing. yes, suicide is wrong and can be prevented, but who knows? he's probably happier where he is now. it baffles me that you people can argue about this case when obviously none of you, including myself, have ever been put in that situation. the least you could do is feel bad for his family, who obviously have gone through enough already. so yeah. it'd be different if the topic was "is committing suicide wrong?" wow, i think everyone who is against this case should really reevaulate their lives and realize that they're LUCKY that they were never put into this situation whether to live or die.

This topic is not about blame. I don't see anyone arguing about anything either. There is no need to feel bad for his family if your notion of him being happier where he is now is true.

I have been in several life and death situations. One of them was when I was diagnosed with cancer that metastasized into my lymph nodes and lost my girlfriend in the same day. I was living 2,000 miles away from my family who couldn't help me.

While this is not the same as the experiences in the topic starter, it does demonstrate an obstacle of a like intensity. It baffles me that you would project your lack of experience onto those who are participating in this topic.

Lastly, if you're not comfortable in this thread, don't visit or post here.

[*disco infiltrator*]

I understand and respect your individual view, but isn't his Christian faith anchored by a baptism?  It seems to be too easy to say that it's OK because he was unable to meet the expectations of his faith. 

My greater question/point is one of consequence.  If there is an existence beyond life on earth, as many people believe, is there an outcome of his action that will effect the journey of his spirit?  If you don't support the belief in an afterlife, this question is pointless.

Well, I'm atheist and unreligious. I don't believe in the afterlife.

Though some may believe that, obviously his own personal beliefs were not of this. Perhaps he was only Christian because he was brought up that way, or because it's "good". Kids can't stop their parents from baptizing them. At a young age, if their parents tell them "God is real and you should worship him!", that's what they know. However, as they get older, they might use their minds differently and think otherwise, to their own personal self. To me, this man had a good mind. His religion obviously didn't dictate his morals, he did. No one else can tell you what your moral boundaries are but you. Jesus can't, your mom can't, your dad can't, etc. Only you can decide what's right for you. The fact that he was Christian should have nothing to do with this debate. You can't back up your opinions with that. "Oh, well, suicide is wrong in the eyes of Jesus, so it's always wrong." No. Why do you personally think it's wrong?

He was 85 years old for Pete's sake. He would have died of old age soon enough. If he thought to himself that he had no reason to live anymore and wanted to die, who are we to stop him? We can't stop anyone from committing suicide if they really, truly want to. You may try to stop your friends if you see them doing it or hear them talking about it, but if that's what they really want, no one can stop them.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

I'm not positive, but Olive might be saying that Christianity prevents an adequate justification because he accepted the principles of that faith when he was baptized.  Although we are individually in control of our destiny, the principles of his faith would nullify an attempt to support his actions.  Again, this is only my unendorsed interpretation of her argument.

Well, since the man is a Christian, and it would be a sin to suicide. The real question now is "Is commiting a Sin Justified"?

[oXMuhNirvanaXo]

I dont think its right that he killed him. he could have moved close to his kids.