The Bible?, historical acocunt or a political agenda Options

[sadolakced acid]

we all know this book. we've at least seen it in hotel rooms. this is the book with tissue-thin pages, the book that was first printed. this is a book that people rally to.

and it is a political agenda.

in the early years of christianity, there were many, many sects that called themselves chistian. one sect decided they were the real christians, and condemned the rest as false sects.

this sect evolved into the church. In order to make all other sects wrong, they edited the bible. they threw out the parts they didn't like, added parts they liked. The bible is a manual for how to live your life- so, why not add in a bit about who you should give money to?

over the years, the bible evolved as it's editors saw fit. It was changed, in the case of the king james bible, to help conquer ireland.

It was rewritten to support values the political leaders wanted supported.

want a reason to allow slavery? put in a bit about cain and able.

want to be able to get precious farmlands in the middle east? put in a bit about that being the holy land.

the bible, it seems, is nothing more than a written propoganda tool; too far edited from it's original text to be considered anything more than a pamplet that's designed, not to ensure truth of history, and that all sides are protrayed, but to get the godless heathens to convert to christianity.


now; you can either flame me and tell me how i couldn't understand, and cite bible quotes and give me something to laugh at,
or you can prove me wrong with a bit of rational debate.

i'd enjoy it emmensly more if you'd pick the first one, although the second is nice.

have a nice day!

[Spirited Away]

Let me laugh at you first... HAHAHAHHAHA another one on religion?!?! GAH! What were you thinking!

Erm, I'll pitch in when someone has a rebuttal.

[sadolakced acid]

Let me laugh at you first... HAHAHAHHAHA another one on religion?!?! GAH! What were you thinking!

Erm, I'll pitch in when someone has a rebuttal.

i was thinking the debate forum has gotten rather boring lately...

[Spirited Away]

i was thinking the debate forum has gotten rather boring lately...

And nothing would spice it up better than a religion thread? LOL
Alright, since no one's here for the other side yet... I'll try to fill in for them?


How do you know if they "threw out" parts of the Bible? The only editions made to the Bible were for translations... etc.


Yea... I don't think I can do this...

[fameONE]

Just for the sake of debate and out of sheer boredom, I'm going to pick a fight and use religion as a tool to wreak havoc in the debate forum.

'What is it with you aetheists? I don't understand how you can be so narrowminded and ignorant as to believe that everything about Christianity is wrong, or that the absence of religion in your life allows you to be superior over the pious. How can you tell me, a Christian, what the bible is and what it isn't when you aren't a Christian yourself? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but driving religion into the ground because you don't agree with it is just as bad as me trying to impose my beliefs on you. I swear, you goddamned aetheists make me sick. I find it ironic how you have a God complex and pretending to be masters of theological studies when, in fact, you don't know much about what you talk about at all. The bible is a historical account that has been slightly altered through the course of history. I dare you to go to Jerusalem and tell the people of Israel that the bible is a piece of fiction and what is known as holy land is simply a piece of rock.'

Those were "my words" but they weren't "my words." I'm just pulling something out of my ass so you have something to argue. Personally, I find this topic to be mundane and boring, so, enjoy the debate with the little leprechaun that tells me to burn things.

[sammi rules you]

i find it pretty sad that we have to be reduced to saying things we don't think just so we won't be bored. ah well, i'll play along.

the bible may have been very much a religious document when it was first made, but since then, it's been altered to fit into certain peoples' preferences. someone doesn't like something and they want everyone to agree with them. they go and interpret the bible and preach what they interpreted and whatever they say, at least some people will believe.

people today are misusing the bible for their own good.

[Spirited Away]

i find it pretty sad that we have to be reduced to saying things we don't think just so we won't be bored. ah well, i'll play along.

Isn't it?


Alright, so it's Brandon and I versus Mr. Acid and Sammi.

Again, where is the proof of 'alterations' you heathens speak of?

[sammi rules you]

if you read different versions of the bible, there are things different about it. some include things against womens' rights and the lot, and more recent versions don't.

if there were no changes, why are there so many versions?

[Spirited Away]

Ah, okay I give up. You win.

Okay, wait, I'll come back with a better response... somehow.

[sammi rules you]

sweeeeet!!! i beat fae!...for the time being!

*dances around room at success*

[karrar]

This is another reason muslims praise there koran . There are no diffrent versions of the Koran .

[*kryogenix*]

if you read different versions of the bible, there are things different about it. some include things against womens' rights and the lot, and more recent versions don't.

if there were no changes, why are there so many versions?

links?

I know there are different versions, like King James and such, but I always thought it was difference in translation. There shouldn't be things added and subtracted.

The only things I know of that have been subtracted are the Apocrypha.

  This is another reason muslims praise there koran . There are no diffrent versions of the Koran .

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm

[not_for_anything]

Yes but there are original manuscripts. It was Constatine/Catholics who actually rewrote it. But what does it matter if some stories are altered. If you truely belive in god, truely try to live a good life..have good morals..etc than the details dont matter.

[sadolakced acid]

like the details that people used to justify slavery?

what of the dead sea scrolls? undeniably they should have been put in the bible- but they were not. why? do they have a secret within them?

[*xcaitlinx*]

Just for the sake of debate and out of sheer boredom, I'm going to pick a fight and use religion as a tool to wreak havoc in the debate forum.

'What is it with you aetheists? I don't understand how you can be so narrowminded and ignorant as to believe that everything about Christianity is wrong, or that the absence of religion in your life allows you to be superior over the pious. How can you tell me, a Christian, what the bible is and what it isn't when you aren't a Christian yourself? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but driving religion into the ground because you don't agree with it is just as bad as me trying to impose my beliefs on you. I swear, you goddamned aetheists make me sick. I find it ironic how you have a God complex and pretending to be masters of theological studies when, in fact, you don't know much about what you talk about at all. The bible is a historical account that has been slightly altered through the course of history. I dare you to go to Jerusalem and tell the people of Israel that the bible is a piece of fiction and what is known as holy land is simply a piece of rock.'

Those were "my words" but they weren't "my words." I'm just pulling something out of my ass so you have something to argue. Personally, I find this topic to be mundane and boring, so, enjoy the debate with the little leprechaun that tells me to burn things.

first of all, it's Atheist. How would you like it if i called your religion 'Ciristianity'? And i find it humourous that you think that atheists are ignorant and narrowminded, when most christians are the ignorant ones. they wont accept anybody elses religion besides their own. if i tell someone that i'm atheist, and they're christian, they look at me akwardly as if im a sinner. they automatically judge me and wonder if there's something wrong with me. WE dont know much about what we're talking about? Please...Christians believe anything that they hear out of that damned book that isn't even prooven to be true. it's called having a mind of your own, and not being a Christian just because my mommy and daddy brainwashed me into thinking that someone above us controls our lives and is always judging us every second of every day. I am a strong enough person to believe in what i believe in and make my own decisions, whether i believe in God or not.

[XoJennaoX]

first of all, it's Atheist. How would you like it if i called your religion 'Ciristianity'? And i find it humourous that you think that atheists are ignorant and narrowminded, when most christians are the ignorant ones. they wont accept anybody elses religion besides their own. if i tell someone that i'm atheist, and they're christian, they look at me akwardly as if im a sinner. they automatically judge me and wonder if there's something wrong with me.

Sounds to me like you are judging Christians with the same narrowminded behavior you assume they are judging most Atheists with.

WE dont know much about what we're talking about? Please...Christians believe anything that they hear out of that damned book that isn't even prooven to be true. it's called having a mind of your own, and not being a Christian just because my mommy and daddy brainwashed me into thinking that someone above us controls our lives and is always judging us every second of every day. I am a strong enough person to believe in what i believe in and make my own decisions, whether i believe in God or not.

You definition of knowledge is a little obscure. Just like a Christian believes there is a God, an Atheist believes there is not. Let me ask you. Is there proof that there isn't a God? If your answer is no then you can't say you actually know more, or know beyond what a Christian believes. So how does believing in something(whether your parents told you to or not) make you a weaker person, but being a skeptic makes you a stronger one?

Anyway back to the bible... I've heard verses translated over and over again into several diferent meanings and teachings, most of them sounding equally convincing. Since it is obvious we will never understand the true meaning (or know for a fact a single translation to be the correct one), it is impossible to conclude if the bible holds true to its historical origin or not.

[*xcaitlinx*]

Sounds to me like you are judging Christians with the same narrowminded behavior you assume they are judging most Atheists with.

not really, im basing my facts on real life experiences. ive never met a christian that hasn't treated me like a weirdo because i dont believe in a trendy religion.

[*kryogenix*]

not really, im basing my facts on real life experiences. ive never met a christian that hasn't treated me like a weirdo because i dont believe in a trendy religion.

people don't find religion because it's trendy you know...

[sammi rules you]

and the christians you've met probably haven't met an atheist who judged them as narrowminded and ignorant.

[fameONE]

first of all, it's Atheist. How would you like it if i called your religion 'Ciristianity'? And i find it humourous that you think that atheists are ignorant and narrowminded, when most christians are the ignorant ones. they wont accept anybody elses religion besides their own. if i tell someone that i'm atheist, and they're christian, they look at me akwardly as if im a sinner. they automatically judge me and wonder if there's something wrong with me. WE dont know much about what we're talking about? Please...Christians believe anything that they hear out of that damned book that isn't even prooven to be true. it's called having a mind of your own, and not being a Christian just because my mommy and daddy brainwashed me into thinking that someone above us controls our lives and is always judging us every second of every day. I am a strong enough person to believe in what i believe in and make my own decisions, whether i believe in God or not.

Let me get into "White Christian Republican" mode and pwn you.

'You have just proved my theory of atheists being ignorant and narrowminded to be correct. All this talk about brainwashing and conditioning sounds like atheist cynnicism. Nevertheless, I believe in Christianity because of my theological studies and I refuse to let my faith be udnermined by the opinions of some child who won't accept a religion she doesn't agree with.

A trendy religion is it? What's seems to be the trend; someone discovering their life's calling through religion or someone apathetiically rejecting a good thing because they hear some obsure opinion along the way to make them change their mind?

We're debating the bible aren't we? Then, since you're so offended and irate about me being a Christian, drop a bible quote or two that could support your argument about my trendy religion.'

I need to go pray to Allah, brb

[sadolakced acid]

religion is trendy, christianity most of all.

teenagers in this time period like to label themselves 'born again' christians, because it's trendy.

christianity has always thrived because of the group. when you suffer with others, it's more attactive.

if each christian were to be convinced that they were the last christian on earth and no one supported them, few would retain thier faith. the few that would are the only ones who are christian because of faith, not because it is trendy.

christians are, as history shows, the least accepting of other religions. from the inception of the idea of a christian religion, the various sects warred with each other.

christianity historically isn't a faith based religion. to be a christian you did not merely need to have faith in christ. christianity has been a church based religion. you were a christian by going to church and putting your coins in the collection plate. It was the community of christians that drew people to the religion, not the faith.

now; in order to facilitate these actions, the bible was rewritten. Parts of the bible emphasising a personal relationship with god were removed from the bible. because, if a personal relationship with god was all that was needed, then there would be no point to bishops and popes.

when king james sought to remove catholicism from scotland and turn the place anglican, he had the bible re-written.

the king james bible is not a translation. it is a political rewritting, made for the purpose of turning catholics to the anglican church.

once one bible has been corrupted by political ideals and agendas, all subsequent translations of that bible contains those ideals and agendas.

[*xcaitlinx*]

Christianity HAS become trendy, because a helluva lot of people are Christian just to be Christian, and know nothing about the religion itself. They base their opinions on what their parents think. i think it's ridiculous.

[*suddenly she*]

Christianity HAS become trendy, because a helluva lot of people are Christian just to be Christian, and know nothing about the religion itself. They base their opinions on what their parents think. i think it's ridiculous.

i see your point, but not the people who are "trendy christians." i'll probably end up meeting a couple of them later on, but it's just difficult for me to understand how a person can claim to be christian without actually studying the lifestyle at all.

just so we don't go mad on this thing, i agree with you, saying that it is ridiculous. recently, i've seen areas (school, neighborhoods, etc) where it is not cool to be christian. for example, in health, our curriculum is based off abstinence. many students believed this was because the author was christian (which i don't know) and therefore dubbed christianity a stupid religion. many other students heard about this and agreed.

now; in order to facilitate these actions, the bible was rewritten. Parts of the bible emphasising a personal relationship with god were removed from the bible. because, if a personal relationship with god was all that was needed, then there would be no point to bishops and popes.

there are separate branches of christianity. i am a part of the protestant branch, and we don't have bishops and popes. since i'm not part of the branch that does have bishops and popes, i can't represent them, but perhaps this shows that (if we are all on the same bible, which may not be likely) catholicism has different beliefs than us.

i'm driving myself into a circle.

and once again, i agree. this debate talk seemingly goes one way while i've been on that way for a long time already.

hm. so. let's keep the hostility down and not offend anyone. respect is a good thing.

[sadolakced acid]

aye, there are separate branches of chrisitanity! each with thier own version of the bible, no?

[ghetosmurph]

Which gets into the Catholic Church and the Protostant Revolution, which gets into the difference between lutherans, protostants, baptists, anglicans, catholics, and any other Christian faith!!!!No there were not differnent sects of Christianity and one claimed to be the true church and tht is the Catholic church!!!! you want me to explain just so you can shoot me down, and that is the problem with a lot of the christians who have posted on here so far, they deal with 1 or 2 minor arguments but still loose in the full debate..... I am not fully prepared to rebuttle your full argument at this point therfore i am not going to try to explain myself at this time.... don't worry, i'll be back for more fun time soon!! you can count on it.....

[fameONE]

aye, there are separate branches of chrisitanity!  each with thier own version of the bible, no?

Not neccesarily. I've been bounced around from church to church growing up. And from Catholic to Baptist, I've used the same bible. The only thing different was the interpretation.

[gotblog4me?]

I'm with ghetosmurph, again!, we're working together on this one!

[sammi rules you]

^ well that's just swell!

just so we don't go mad on this thing, i agree with you, saying that it is ridiculous.  recently, i've seen areas (school, neighborhoods, etc) where it is not cool to be christian. for example, in health, our curriculum is based off abstinence. many students believed this was because the author was christian (which i don't know) and therefore dubbed christianity a stupid religion. many other students heard about this and agreed.

i guess it's just different in different areas. here, it's DEFINITELY cool to be christian, and if you're not christian, you're just weird. now, not being a christian isn't that bad, JUST AS LONG as you still believe in God. however, if you're atheist, then you're just stupid. seriously, people say "well that's stupid, how can you not believe in God?" and every single time i just have to roll my eyes and say "forget about it.." cause i've heard it all so many times before..

now, that's not to say it's cool to follow the christian ideals. i gurantee 60% of my school, at least, has already had sex. yet they are all christians (most, at least). it's not cool to follow christianity, but it's cool to be a christian.

but this really has nothing to do with the debate, so i'll stop ranting.

[fameONE]

You can be devout in your faith and not agree with all of its ideals.

I have sex.

I'm also a selfless person that cares more about others and the greater good of society before myself.

So, a sociopath with a butcherknife dies a virgin, but kills 10 people in the process. He "repents." Who's going to hell?

[sadolakced acid]

the 10 people! becuase they weren't christians! the sociopath christian goes to heaven for killing the infedel.

that's in the bible.
and if it's not in your version, it's because it's been edited out.

[fameONE]

the 10 people!  becuase they weren't christians!  the sociopath christian goes to heaven for killing the infedel.

that's in the bible.
and if it's not in your version, it's because it's been edited out.

Honestly, I really don' agree with viewpoint I'm arguing from.

I've believed this ever since I was old enough to understand what was going on in church; its just a book.

[*suddenly she*]

the 10 people!  becuase they weren't christians!  the sociopath christian goes to heaven for killing the infedel.

that's in the bible.
and if it's not in your version, it's because it's been edited out.

eh, what version is that? it sounds interesting. we should probably compare different versions.

considering that the ten people killed were christians, of course they went to heaven. if the sociopath truly repented and was sorry that he did it, he also went to heaven.
^if you want a (niv version) verse for that, ask. because otherwise i won't post it unless i need to prove it.

if the ten people killed were not christian, but did not have a chance to receive the gospel before, then it is my own belief that they would have a chance to become christian before entering either heaven or hell, or that they would go to heaven. of course, i'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me on that, because i'm human and can't tell you how God works.
if they did have a chance before and did not become christian, then they went to hell.
that's what i believe, anyway.

[sammi rules you]

so...anyone who's not christian..even though there were religions existing before christianity..goes to hell? no matter what? no matter how good or moralistic they are, they go to hell?

and a sociopath who kills ten people, but is a christian..however, seems to not abide by the christian ideals..goes to heaven?

seems like the bible is advertising christianity....seems like trying to get everyone to be christian. and if christians are supposed to be accepting of others, this doesn't seem very religiously driven.

[crayonzUpMyNose]

i think it was just a bunch of stories people made up. neither propaganda or truth

[sadolakced acid]

ghandi goes to hell?

darwin goes to hell?

galelio goes to hell?

you know, hell sounds like a better place; considering

hitler goes to heaven
the crusaders go to heaven
timothy mcvegh goes to heaven.

you know what, i want to go to hell

[fameONE]

ghandi goes to hell?

darwin goes to hell?

galelio goes to hell?

you know, hell sounds like a better place; considering

hitler goes to heaven
the crusaders go to heaven
timothy mcvegh goes to heaven.

you know what, i want to go to hell

Without denouncing my faith, I'm agreeing with your viewpoint.

Personally, I believe you have to make beliefs your own. There is no way you can whole-heartedly believe in something unless you understand how it connects with your daily life.

I don't care about JOB, Jeremiah or Daniel.I care about if I'm a good person and contributing to the greater good of society and mankind. The Bible is merely a book to me.

Christianity is just a basic guideline for me to help better myself as a person. I have sex, I swear from time to time (more so on the internet, douchebag) and I support someone's decision to be a homosexual because no one should have control over how someone feels or a decision they make.

In the eyes of many, especially those who follow the bible word for word, I'm a goin' to hail. I'm not so self-righteous to believe that I'm not and going to heaven, I really don't concern myself with such thoughts of nonsense. My concern is being a good; son, brother, friend, boyfriend, human being.

I could care less if you worship Spongebob, pray to Geore Lucas or don't even believe a benevolent omnipresent exists. If you're good people, you're good people. And every good person is rewarded some way or another.

"Yo Don, so how are you a Christian?"

Thats a damn good question. Its partly because I have an interest in uncovering certain biblical "truths." Like Noah's ship that's supposedly buried in Mt. Arrarat or walking the path the Jesus supposedly' walked before he was murdered.

Still, I don't "put things in God's hands," I put things in my hands. {Christian Humanism}

Now, you all can see why I tend to argue with both Christians and atheists. I feel like people get too caught up in the politics of it all analyzing everything instead of living their lives with some sort of hope that maybe there is a God, or that we do have guardian angels or a spirit of a passed loved one who has our back and watches over us.

Well, I'm going to wrap this up before I start to ramble. Thats my standpoint on religion, Christianity and all. I'm sure I'll get plenty of PMs from Christians calling me a satanist and a traitor, but I don't care because they can all kiss my black ass.

[*suddenly she*]

so...anyone who's not christian..even though there were religions existing before christianity..goes to hell? no matter what? no matter how good or moralistic they are, they go to hell?

and a sociopath who kills ten people, but is a christian..however, seems to not abide by the christian ideals..goes to heaven?

seems like the bible is advertising christianity....seems like trying to get everyone to be christian. and if christians are supposed to be accepting of others, this doesn't seem very religiously driven.

if they didn't get a chance to become christian, then i don't think they would go to hell, but instead have a chance to decide after death.

for the sociopath, that's what we call grace. it's something that nobody deserves. the bible says heaven cannot accept sin, but somehow, humans who make mistakes and do wrong on purpose can still get in.

that ties in to the whole forgiveness story.
love/accept the person, hate the sin or what the person believes.

i have trouble with that a lot.

by the way, good job don.

[baller30]

if you read different versions of the bible, there are things different about it. some include things against womens' rights and the lot, and more recent versions don't.

if there were no changes, why are there so many versions?

the reason there have been different wersions of the bible are for mamny reasons
1. the greek expersions for some things are very hard to translate and can be translated in many different ways; here's my favorite example:

In the Greek to say that you deeply cared about something, you would say something to the affect that it makes their bowels move...

hehe ... to translate this literally would make no sense to the American and/or English reader so instead it would be translate as:

i love he/she/it from the bottom of my heart( or with all my heart)

2. one word has several different meanings depending of context

many of you know that in english, one word can have so many different meanings. in the greek and hebrew this is very true.

that's all i can think of right now when i think of more i'll get back to you

o and one more thing...
in order to go to heaven, a person must wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ as his/hjer Lord and Savior and believe that he is God and died on the cross to sve them from themselves and their sin. someone can claim they are a christian, but really never be. the buman heart is decietful. someone can fool him/herself into anything, including the fact that they believe they are a chritian, bu they are not. Only God knows people's hearts, but a person can also really be a Christian and believe that they are not ( as i said before the heart is wicked). Most people however know that they are christians by what their heart's desire really is.

the pyscho can claim is a chrsitian, hitler can claim he is a christian, but if it is not shown in their life that they live how God wants them to live - which is a pure and holy life( which is impossible without Him) - they cannot be a christian. so that means that by this definition, a christian cannot be someone who murders others and never wholeheartedly repents. this person may be sorry, but if they are sorry beacuse they got caught then that is not true repentance. Repentance is being truly sorry because they have done something horrible not only against their fellow man, but most importantly against God.

It may seem harsh that God doesn't let those who don't believe in Him and His son into heaven, but God doesn't have to answer to us. Why should a artist answer to the pot? God created us and we have sinned against Him from birth. Like our parents, he has to punish us for what we have done wrong.

[fameONE]

baller30,

You are viewing this from your own personal standpoint of faith, and that's fine.

HOWEVER...

You must take into account that all good people aren't Christians and all Christians aren't good people. In addition to that, Christianity is not the sole religion on this planet so who are you to say that your way is right and anyone else's way is wrong?

I respect your devotion, I really do. BUT, by claiming that the only way to get to "heaven" (generalization: eternal reward for being a good person) is by doing the above listed, is a bit; unfair, ignorant and biased.

Speaking of being biased(!)...

in order to go to heaven, a person must wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ as his/hjer Lord and Savior and believe that he is God and died on the cross to sve them from themselves and their sin. someone can claim they are a christian, but really never be. the buman heart is decietful. someone can fool him/herself into anything, including the fact that they believe they are a chritian, bu they are not. Only God knows people's hearts, but a person can also really be a Christian and believe that they are not ( as i said before the heart is wicked). Most people however know that they are christians by what their heart's desire really is.

You're preaching to the wrong choir, kid.

[baller30]

i totally understnad what you are saying people just didn't seem to understand what it means to be a christian. so i wanted them to understand what it means

and of course there are "good people," but that doesn't mean they will go to heaven. it is just like muslims who say that you must be muslim to go to heaven or mormons who say that the christians and jews are just a little wrong and the book of Mormom is the only pure book on Earth.

the problem for many is finding the right one.

also I'm not the one saying that chrisitanity is the only way God says it. I have no right to compromise anything God says. I would be ... just sinful.

[fameONE]

the problem for many is finding the right one.

Are you saying that there is a right religion or that everyone needs religion and thats its a matter of choosing the right one?

Or are you saying that Christianity is the way and we need to all meet at River Jordan and sail on over to the other side?

[sadolakced acid]

ehh.

i have had the chance to become christian. in fact, i have had the chance shoved forcefully in my face and down my throat.

therefore; i will burn in a christian hell.

anyways:

baller30, would you care to explain why you're viewing the greek bible as an origin bible, form which many other bibles were translated?


and on that ambiguity thing: translators pick the meaning which suits them the most.

if you're trying to get a couple to break up; and the girl says "but he said he has strong feelings for me!" <- she is obviously interperting that as good strong feelings, as that's beneficial to her.

however, you can say that he has strong feelings of hate for her, because that benefits you.

[*kryogenix*]

ghandi goes to hell?

darwin goes to hell?

galelio goes to hell?

you know, hell sounds like a better place; considering

hitler goes to heaven
the crusaders go to heaven
timothy mcvegh goes to heaven.

you know what, i want to go to hell

I don't think you're understanding this the right way. Read my sig.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Who is the true follower of Christ, the man who preaches non-violence or the man who commits genocide?

[*suddenly she*]

I don't think you're understanding this the right way. Read my sig.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Who is the true follower of Christ, the man who preaches non-violence or the man who commits genocide?

that's a great verse, but what does it have to do with anything at the moment?
i think we should have your question a bit altered.

who is the true follower of Christ, the non-christian man who preaches non-violence or the christian man who commits genocide?

do you think God judges a person based on his/her best or worst deed?
i don't really have an opinion yet on the question i just wrote.

actually, maybe i do.
He might judge on what your intentions were. i don't know, because i can't explain the mind that created the world.

26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. -ezekiel 18:26-27, niv. source: biblegateway.com

i guess that says it.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD. -ezekiel 18:9, niv. source: biblegateway.com

what are his decrees and laws? the ten commandments, all that stuff about not murdering people, having mercy and so on. from what i can see, ghandi followed them. if following God was included, then i have no idea.

my head hurts from thinking. sorry if i'm screwing up the debate.

[sadolakced acid]

I don't think you're understanding this the right way. Read my sig.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Who is the true follower of Christ, the man who preaches non-violence or the man who commits genocide?

according to most every christian i've asked, the man who commites genocide. that is, if he truely believes in jesus christ as his lord and savior and truly seeks forgiveness for his sins.

ehh. hitler has a greater chance than me of getting into heaven.

that being said, everyone should worship jesus. either as thier lord and savior, or as history's greatest con.

i think getting billions of people to call you god is pretty good if you aren't really god, don't you think?

and if you are god, why can't you get the rest?

that being said; i do not believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, and thus i will undeniablly go to hell, as ghandi undeniably went to hell.

hitler, however, as well as high nazis, have a better chance of going to heavan.

[*suddenly she*]

according to most every christian i've asked, the man who commites genocide.  that is, if he truely believes in jesus christ as his lord and savior and truly seeks forgiveness for his sins. 

ehh.  hitler has a greater chance than me of getting into heaven.

that being said, everyone should worship jesus.  either as thier lord and savior, or as history's greatest con. 

i think getting billions of people to call you god is pretty good if you aren't really god, don't you think?

and if you are god, why can't you get the rest?

that being said; i do not believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, and thus i will undeniablly go to hell, as ghandi undeniably went to hell. 

hitler, however, as well as high nazis, have a better chance of going to heavan.

he doesn't get the rest because he gives people the choice to pick him or not. he gives us this free will.

i don't know your intelligence level (looking at your other posts, it's quite high), but if you're about to ask why he would give us free will if it was sending people to their deaths..

-yes, i've read the other post you made and that you don't like people saying God loves you and all those wonderfully creative Bible answers-

he gave you the free will because he loves you. please don't kill me, because that would be bad. from what i can see, you're enjoying your free will to refuse him. that's what he wanted you to do, enjoy life. he didn't want a robot following his ideals, but a person who really believed it... and then there are people who just don't want to.

there we go, now you can't look like a preaching parrot because i think i've fulfilled the quota for the next week or so.

i don't understand how people just don't believe there is a God. would someone care to explain?

[_suzie_]

some of you are makin it out to sound like the murderer of 10 people gets into heaven for repenting...well, if u read teachings throughout the bible you'll find that people are still punished for what they've done, even though they've repented.

I was brought up a Catholic. i live in northern ireland, where protestants and catholics have murdered each other simply because of their faith. sounds stupid seeing as theyre both christian...but anyways.

i believe in God and Christ. many would say i am therefore a Christian. in obvious ways i am...but i dont believe in what the Church has been practising for thousands of years...cuz many of thier actions have been to suppress the people. the christian churches of the world are among the richest institutions that have ever existed.

in other words, the christian church and the ''catechism of the catholic church'' have stood between me and God. i personally believe that God is the same god for all (monotheistic) religions - for example, the Koran itself praises the birth of Jesus to Mary...however does not recognise him as a messiah.

religious institutions and scriptures are run and were written by by man = fact. this is why i cant take everything any holy book says as TOTALLY true. i can only take what i can from it, in my own interpretation.

heres a nice quote i found ages ago:

''Did not I, who brought Israel out of Egypt, bring
the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Aramaeans from Kir?'' Amos 9:7

yahweh, god, allah, whatever u wana call him/her. he apparently saved many races, makin covenants with them. hence different religions and methods of worship...
christianity, islam and judaism are closely linked when you think about it. it really boils down to different ppl at different times in the past who interpreted their faiths and passed them on. things change.

just hope sometime wars over religion end, n ppl can chill the f**k out with each other. :)
sorry this is so long :S

[*suddenly she*]

some of you are makin it out to sound like the murderer of 10 people gets into heaven for repenting...well, if u read teachings throughout the bible you'll find that people are still punished for what they've done, even though they've repented.

in other words, the christian church and the ''catechism of the catholic church'' have stood between me and God. i personally believe that God is the same god for all (monotheistic) religions - for example, the Koran itself praises the birth of Jesus to Mary...however does not recognise him as a messiah.

religious institutions and scriptures are run and were written by  by man = fact. this is why i cant take everything any holy book says as TOTALLY true. i can only take what i can from it, in my own interpretation.

heres a nice quote i found ages ago:

    ''Did not I, who brought Israel out of Egypt, bring
    the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Aramaeans from Kir?'' Amos 9:7

yahweh, god, allah, whatever u wana call him/her. he apparently saved many races, makin covenants with them. hence different religions and methods of worship...
christianity, islam and judaism are closely linked when you think about it. it really boils down to different ppl at different times in the past who interpreted their faiths and passed them on. things change.

just hope sometime wars over religion end, n ppl can chill the f**k out with each other. :)
sorry this is so long  :S

when you find a verse on that (being punished for their deeds, even with repentance), post it up and include the version. it would be interesting to compare versions.

definition of holy, from dictionary.com
1. Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.
2. Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.
3. Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.
4. Specified or set apart for a religious purpose: a holy place.
5. Solemnly undertaken; sacrosanct: a holy pledge.
6. Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: The pursuit of peace is our holiest quest.
7. Informal. Used as an intensive: raised holy hell over the mischief their children did.

the christian's holy book is the bible. book is a word we all know, but holy, in definition 1/2 means sacred, or worthy of worship. the bible was written by man with much of it inspired by God, such as the pentateuch/first five books of the old testament, especially genesis.

for those who don't know, genesis tells the story of creation.

the bible is sacred and completely true, but for years, people have mutilated the meaning to fit their purpose, as others have stated in the thread. even in one church, a verse can be interpreted many different ways.

for example...


Amos 9:7 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
Souce: Biblegateway.com
7"Do you Israelites think you're any better than the far-off Cushites?" GOD's Decree.
"Am I not involved with all nations? Didn't I bring Israel up from Egypt, the Philistines from Caphtor, the Arameans from Qir?

what that says to me is God is involved in everyone, and the fact that he is, does not mean he is the God everyone worships. Before he brought out those separate people from those areas, they most likely did not worship him. Their bringing out would increase their faith in a different god.

Hm. Well, I have a headache again, partly from this, and partly from wondering why I'm capitalizing words correctly.

[sadolakced acid]

he doesn't get the rest because he gives people the choice to pick him or not. he gives us this free will.

i don't know your intelligence level (looking at your other posts, it's quite high), but if you're about to ask why he would give us free will if it was sending people to their deaths..

-yes, i've read the other post you made and that you don't like people saying God loves you and all those wonderfully creative Bible answers-

he gave you the free will because he loves you. please don't kill me, because that would be bad. from what i can see, you're enjoying your free will to refuse him. that's what he wanted you to do, enjoy life. he didn't want a robot following his ideals, but a person who really believed it... and then there are people who just don't want to.

there we go, now you can't look like a preaching parrot because i think i've fulfilled the quota for the next week or so.

i don't understand how people just don't believe there is a God. would someone care to explain?

ehhh. i've seen too much of this world and what can happen to innocent people to believe there is a god. i started life as a blank slate- my parents didn't force any religion upon me, and from this freedom i've concluded that there is no god that controls anything in this world.

i do actually believe there are gods- but they aren't as powerful as me make them out to be- they're mortal, etc.

but, most imporantly, i do not believe jesus was the christ. i just don't believe. jesus seems... too manufactured. too much a prop to be used to recruit people.

anyways:

tell me, in all honesty, if hitler truely believed in jesus christ as his lord and savior, and he truely repented for what he did, would he go to heaven or hell?

[sikdragon]

Hitler commited suicide, so no as far as we know. Cain and abel was written long before christianity was even thought of here on earth. Genesis is just one of the many books written by moses. The bible doesnt say that if you're not christian you won't go to heaven. The church is just a building. The only thing you need to actually do is love. love your neighbor, love your God. When i say your God im not acknowledging any other god. Im saying that the God of abraham, isaac, and jacob can be yours. There is no political agenda in the bible. The agenda lies outside the bible in those who preach. The agenda lies in pamphlets and explanations. The agenda lies in money grubbing wolves who hide in sheeps clothing. The agenda lies in the hypocrites and those on street corners praying loudly for the world to hear. Christianity isn't a cult or a sect. It's not even about being a group of people. It's about a personal relationship with Jesus. You wanna know if he's real or not. Talk to him. Ask for him and he will be there. Jesus can't be seen because of the sin in your life. That's not placing any sort of i'm better than you stance on it either. There was sin in my life and probably will be. Well, i should start again by explaining what sin is. We Christians just use words and expect everyone to understand what we know them to mean. Sin is a dark stormy cloud that covers us and keeps the son from shining it's warmth down on us. With sin we can't see the sun. Does that mean we have to change the weather? no, that's not possible. We need help. We need the sun to move it the clouds away, (he's closer and his arms are longer.) The bible can't be a political agenda. It doesnt stand to gain anything. The leaders only gain from ignorance of the Bible, (not understanding the fundamentals of the bible). The bible teaches the same selflessness of buddhists in the fact that some of the groups give everything up to find enlightenment and reach nirvana, but not to such an extreme. It teaches togetherness like the cults, but not ritual suicide. It teaches Law, just like there is in every christian/nonchristian country alike. If you took time to read it rather than just looking up a couple stories and then bashing you would understand. Read isnt the word i mean, i mean immerse yourself in it. See it like you would when you read a book you really enjoy. See the characters for who they are. Imagine the geneology as it would have been. See the picture of God that the lord has made.

As for all of the innocence lost. How can God exist when there is so much corruption in the world. God being a just God won't force anyone to be with him. God is the quintessence of good. Without him there is corruption and death. In the garden of Eden, God took a stick and drew a metaphorical line in the sand. He said if you want to be buried with my son and not die with the world that has chosen to try and exist without me, cross the line. The thing about this line is that it can be recrossed and that is just what the two in the garden did. With that he said, "I would die for you, would you do the same for me?" In that moment that eve took a bite of the fruit she said she wouldnt. She didnt want to be saved from death.

Those responsible for all of those who have died. Those who transgress against anyone transgress against him and they will face their just punishment.

I dont claim to know every aspect of christanity. All i can claim to understand is the fact that a christian is defined in the bible as one who loves Christ or the unknown God as he was referred to earlier in the world. Did you know all of the hindu God's are believed to be all apart of one greater God. Did you know that Allah is just the arabic word for God. Everyone on earth has heard of God. Everyone on earth knows of God. It may not be the same aspect as we Christians know God, but that's the reason why he wrote the bible and set us out into the world. So that all of the other nations should hear of him so they can see the rest of the picture he has set out before us.

[sadolakced acid]

^ read the whole debate.

[*suddenly she*]

anyways:

tell me, in all honesty, if hitler truely believed in jesus christ as his lord and savior, and he truely repented for what he did, would he go to heaven or hell?

heaven.
i need to do more research on hitler.

[sammi rules you]

and i would go to hell, since i'm atheist?

well that's not very loving of God. i'm a perfectly good and moral person.

[*suddenly she*]

and i would go to hell, since i'm atheist?

well that's not very loving of God. i'm a perfectly good and moral person.

what are your standards for being a good and moral person?
what are God's standards for being a good and moral person?

[pink_p0lo]

^^ iagree with the above post...

and i would go to hell, since i'm atheist?

well that's not very loving of God. i'm a perfectly good and moral person.

um,ithought atheists didnt believe in god. you just said you were an atheist; thereforeyou dont believe there is a God. so how can you say,"well that's not very loving of God" when according to you, there is no God?

a big part of religion is faith. and for christians, part of the faith is believing that the bible is true, just as we believe in God even though we cant see him.

although, i have heard that they think they found noah's ark and that at the bottom of the red sea, where moses led the slaves to freedom, they have found bones and parts of chariots fromwhen the soldies chasing them were swept away.

[Spirited Away]

what are your standards for being a good and moral person?
what are God's standards for being a good and moral person?

What are God's standards of good and morality?

um,ithought atheists didnt believe in god.  you just said you were an atheist; thereforeyou dont believe there is a God. so how can you say,"well that's not very loving of God" when according to you, there is no God?

... you need to read into context. Actually, you just need to read the threads like I asked so many times before.

Anyway, she is saying that such a God, one who would turn away from an innocent simply because the person is not Christian, is not very loving.

a big part of religion is faith. and for christians, part of the faith is believing that the bible is true, just as we believe in God even though we cant see him.
although, i have heard that they think they found noah's ark and that at the bottom of the red sea, where moses led the slaves to freedom, they have found bones and parts of chariots fromwhen the soldies chasing them were swept away.

... how big was Noah's Ark?

[pink_p0lo]

big..but why would it matter anyway??

btw,yeah, i have been reading the threads...

and i would say why i thinkgod is loving but other people have already mentioned it in john 3:16,but then you would just tell me to read the thread..which i have...

[Spirited Away]

big..but why would it matter anyway??

btw,yeah, i have been reading the threads...

and i would say why i thinkgod is loving but other people have already mentioned it in john 3:16,but then you would just tell me to read the thread..which i have...

Actually if you have, you wouldn't be repeating things others have said before you because they have already been discussed. This is relevant to other posts you've made in debate as well.

And I did ask you to read Sammi's (touch my monkey) response in context, too.

How big is big, by the way?

[pink_p0lo]

big enough to hold two of every kind of animal.

i read the thread, and i didnt really see anything that was relevant to my post..

you askedme to read touch my monkey's post in context. but that was after my first post. and i said, and you quoted it, that other people had already discussed it in john 3:16

[*kryogenix*]

so, exactly what was taken out of the bible that you guys are complaining about?

[XoJennaoX]

although, i have heard that they think they found noah's ark and that at the bottom of the red sea, where moses led the slaves to freedom, they have found bones and parts of chariots from when the soldies chasing them were swept away.

I have also heard they found the first born son of King Rameses (according to the bible he was killed by God during the last of the ten plagues noted in Exodus). The autopsy report showed he was killed by a blow to the head, obviously from a weapon that was used by man. This is only what I've "heard". Even-so i doubt finding bones in the red sea proves anything in your case, since Egyptain hieroglyphics also claim the fact that there was indeed a battle during that period in time, but a little less "holy" than the bible claims it was.

[Spirited Away]

big enough to hold two of every kind of animal.

i read the thread, and i didnt really see anything that was relevant to my post..

you askedme to read touch my monkey's post in context. but that was after my first post. and i said, and you quoted it, that other people had already discussed it in john 3:16

Righttt. And how big is that? You said people found something tangible, right? Well, there should be an estimate of size or some kind of measurement, don't you think? So, I want to know how the finding compare with something that could hold "two of every animal".

This is what you said:

um,ithought atheists didnt believe in god. you just said you were an atheist; thereforeyou dont believe there is a God. so how can you say,"well that's not very loving of God" when according to you, there is no God?

And I asked you to read within the context of what she was saying because you would've understood what she meant, which is "that such a God, one who would turn away from an innocent simply because the person is not Christian, is not very loving." She is not saying whether or not there's a God, she's stating the hypothetical. Simple enough, I think.

[sadolakced acid]

although, i have heard that they think they found noah's ark and that at the bottom of the red sea, where moses led the slaves to freedom, they have found bones and parts of chariots fromwhen the soldies chasing them were swept away.

that's funny. because the original hebrew text says something that more accuratly translates as "the reed sea". and that there was such a sea, and it was really more of a marsh, and the tide would fill and drain it. and that historians are pretty sure this is what the original text said.


hmm. i wonder why they found bodies and chariots in the red sea. i mean, it's not like boats carrying chariots could have sunk there...

and you ask me to prove where the bible's been changed.... here a simple translation error that makes a 'miracle' into something bigger, what else is there? a 'translation error' that makes blacks the inferiors and destined slaves of the whites?

[lbjshaq2345]

dude




not even gonna go thare

[Spirited Away]

dude
not even gonna go thare

Dude...


Don't post if you're not "gonna go thare".

[fameONE]

dude
not even gonna go thare

I've ripped on you before, I don't see a reason to stop.

You're not intelligent enough to post in this subforum.

Oh, I went "thare."

so, exactly what was taken out of the bible that you guys are complaining about?

Good question. This thread is more or less an interpretation of intent. I don't think people truly understand Christianity and the one's that do, haven't been doing a good job of educating. And when valid points are brought up to sway the argument in favor of Christianity, it becomes preachy. So it becomes preachy and the atheists raise some hell because of all this heaven talk and the process keeps repeating itself.

[Spirited Away]

And when valid points are brought up to sway the argument in favor of Christianity, it becomes preachy. So it becomes preachy and the atheists raise some hell because of all this heaven talk and the process keeps repeating itself.

... I don't think we can ever agree on what would be considered a 'valid point'. The 'we' stand in for Atheists and non-Atheists as well.

[fameONE]

Ahh, good morning, Fae? How are you today?

... I don't think we can ever agree on what would be considered a 'valid point'. The 'we' stand in for Atheists and non-Atheists as well.

Sadly, you're right. Hopefully we can agree that being a good person is universal for everyone.

[Spirited Away]

Ahh, good morning, Fae? How are you today?

Good morning! I'll be working so I don't know how my day's going to be yet.

Sadly, you're right. Hopefully we can agree that being a good person is universal for everyone.

Unfortunately, we can't even agree on that. From what Ruth implied, there is a distinction between God's standard of 'good' and our standard of 'good'. So, how do we overcome that? What is God's standard of 'good'?

[sammi rules you]

big enough to hold two of every kind of animal.

OH REALLY?

well, if you had actually read the bible as you must claim to since you're such an awesome christian, you would know that noah was asked to take seven of every animal.

and i'm not making this up. in our evolution/creation debate in bio, we had several bibles. it says seven.

isn't part of god's morals to read the bible? looks like you're not so good and moral, either. so i really don't think you're in any place to tell me whether i'm good and moral.

[_suzie_]

''isn't part of god's morals to read the bible?''


um...no. how can that even BE a moral? God has never said anything about reading a bible...just to follow his laws and be loyal, love one another, etcetera.


''people have mutilated the meaning to fit their purpose, as others have stated in the thread. even in one church, a verse can be interpreted many different ways.''

nicely put,suddenly she. sikdragon put it nicely too, about the agenda's lying not within the bible but in the hands of politically driven men.
''The church is just a building'' - it is indeed. an institution.



someone asked for a passage where people were still punished ater repenting, theres thousands, but anyways...this is a fairly well known one, its wher King David had an affair with Bathsheeba, and murdered her husband when she became pregnant. (her husband was a Hittite fighting in the holy war, and all warriors in holy wars werent allowed to do anything 'unclean' like have sex during the war. so, david couldnt persuade him to stay home with his wife ie to frame him for the pregnancy, all that jazz)

heres the bible reference of the Jerusalem Bible, 2SAMUEL, 11. its titled , 'The second ammonite campaign. David's sin.'

anyways, so david murdered him.

Nathan the prophet comes along n shows david what he's done wrong etc, thru a parable.


nathan says ''Thus Yahweh speaks, 'i will stir up evil for you out of your own house..' ''
davids overwhelmed and falls to his knees in repentance, sayin
''i have sinned against yahweh''

thennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nathan says , ''Yahweh, for his part, forgives you for his sin; you are not to die. Yet by doing this, the child that is born to you is to die''
David's son raped one of his daughters, whose brother then murdered the rapist..sorry kinda confusing, but displays the crisis within davids family

thats one example. sorry if its a bit brief, but i had an exam on the same thing the other day, and my head is melted from it.

if u want more ill type it up

[fameONE]

Unfortunately, we can't even agree on that. From what Ruth implied, there is a distinction between God's standard of 'good' and our standard of 'good'. So, how do we overcome that? What is God's standard of 'good'?

Hmm, maybe I should walk around carrying an M60 demanding that people get along peacefully? Or maye I should throw away the idea of a governed set of rules and guidelines and be 'a good person' by example so people of any belief can say, "That kid Brandon is a good guy."

I'm feelin' the idea of the M60 but I'll settle for option #2.

[sadolakced acid]

nicely put,suddenly she.  sikdragon put it nicely too, about the agenda's lying not within the bible but in the hands of politically driven men.

yes, there is an agenda in the bible put in by politically driven men. it's tainted the bible so that it's word cannot be taken as the word of deciphels, or prophets, or whatever it's supposed to be.

[sikdragon]

I did read it and i had some very valid points.

[*suddenly she*]

ah... you guys. when we compare bibles, let's say which versions if you can remember, because some of this material's new to me and i might feel inclined to do some research.

*feels dorky*

i'll post more later, it's kinda late for me.

[xXYouMeBedNowXx]

I just read the entire thread, and hopefully I've gotten this right.

First of all, I am not Christian, I never have been, nor attempted to, simply because I think I have found something that suits me much better, something that I can believe because it makes perfect sense to me: I am a Fatist.

Secondly, sikdragon, even though I may not understand the slightest things about your religion, I still respect you for the words you've put down, if not for a religiously standpoint, one that is brave enough to see through the smog. I feel you deserve that, I can't believe that only one other person since your post has given you a form of praise for that.

Back to Fatism. I didn't get this out of a book, no one told me about it, in fact, I don't know anyone else that is one, besides myself. The idea of Fatism is one that I discovered about on my own. It is simply an analysis of what I've witnessed, a manifesto my opinions. All I did was slap a label on it, and ta-da. The only reason it is so easy for me to accept this is because it makes perfect sense to me, because it is my own deviation. If you'd like more details on it (I do admit, it seems as though I was preaching somewhat) look on in this thread:

http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...topic=75499&hl=

I'll come back to this later.

[*kryogenix*]

This Week's Gospel: Matthew 10:26-33

Now verses 32-33:

Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

[sadolakced acid]

^ what was the point of that?

it's a stupid bible verse, and one that's probably been mistranslated at that.

[sikdragon]

He's giving referrance to what i said earlier. You hate what you dont understand, just like all hate. Can anyone say they fully understand what they hate? You can say that, but can you mean it? No.

[Spirited Away]

This Week's Gospel: Matthew 10:26-33
Now verses 32-33:

The passage roughly translates to me as 'if you don't care for me, I won't care for you.' Or more crudely, 'if you don't give a shit about me, why should I give a shit about you'.

Now, why would a parent ever say that to his/her child. I remember getting into arguments with my parents in my younger days and they never said they'd give up on me or that they'll leave me behind just because I couldn't understand our circumstances. In fact, they said they'll be there for me for whatever reason, which is one of the reasons why I am a better person today.

Sik, we do not hate what we do not understand neccessarily, we simply disbelieve it. Can anyone love what he/she disbelieve? I don't think so.


Good night.

[sikdragon]

i'm not talking about you disbelieving it fae. I'm talking about acid's blind attacks.

and for the translation, that's very rough. to me it's, "If you won't accept my help, i can't help you." Jesus is referring to the new law. How that his sacrifice can get you to his father. According to our scripture all one needs to do is claim Jesus as their life line to be pulled back into safety. Claimed not just to men, but in front of yourself and God.

[Spirited Away]

I know I said good night, but darn it I was checking on stuff and kabammm you replied. Okay. Last comment for the night. Really.

i'm not talking about you disbelieving it fae. I'm talking about acid's blind attacks.

Oh. Well, I wouldn't call them "blind" attacks. It depends on point of view.

and for the translation, that's very rough. to me it's, "If you won't accept my help, i can't help you." Jesus is referring to the new law. How that his sacrifice can get you to his father. According to our scripture all one needs to do is claim Jesus as their life line to be pulled back into safety. Claimed not just to men, but in front of yourself and God.

I suppose you can interpret it as such, but allow me to explain how I got my translation. To do so, I will break it down. If in doing so the original meaning is lost to you, then let me know and I'll figure out another way to explain.
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven."
Remember how we talked about an unconditional love? Why is that God must give a condition, in the form of Jesus, for His love to be bestowed? Why must Jesus suffered for all our sins so selflessly, but demands a condition in the end? I know you're probably thinking, it's not too much to ask in turn for His sacrifice, but all I'm asking is 'why'. Why must one acknowledge Him, a condition, before being allowed to receive God's love, which is said to be unconditional? It is too contrary for me to understand.

"But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."
Jesus died on the cross because He loved God's creation, right? If He so loved us, why is there a condition to His love? Is love meant for conditions?

Edit>> And to your translation of accepting Jesus's help.
I used to hate how my Mom would make me wear a sweater to school in the Fall, when the air is cool and breezy. She says I will catch a cold if I don't warm myself. I never listen to her but she has never a day forgot to tell me, force me, remind me to put on a sweater. I know she meant well so I don't hate the whole thing anymore, but I still don't wear a sweater just because she tells me to, and she still does it to this day.

Babies fuss when their parents put things on them, eg. beanies or socks. Though the babies fuss, the parents won't take them off, or let the child take them off, if the weather is cold.

Do you know what I mean?

This post has been edited by uninspiredfae: Jun 20 2005, 11:55 PM

[sikdragon]

When you love someone the natural reaction is to want to be loved in return. Sin seperates us from God. It is a thing that he hates. It keeps us from seeing him. Instead of having us earn our way past our sin by trying to overcome it, he sent us a carwash to was away the dirt and mud of sin. Unless you go to the carwash you cant get your car cleaned. This metaphor requires the metaphorical fact that you have no hose or ability to wash your car. Imagine that your boyfriend started out as one person. He was the most wonderful guy you ever met. You love him. Imagine that this same guy started doing drugs. Let's say he got addicted to crack or heroin. You get knocked into second or third place on his priority list. He gets high and you can't talk to him. He's always jonesing and sells you your vcr for money. He gets irrate and even violent if he doesnt get his fix. How can you keep your relationship healthy? You see he has a problem, he doesnt. Jesus is like Rehab. Hope that answers your question.

a note on the blind attacks, how can you understand fully something you've never experienced?

[sammi rules you]

i really hope you weren't suggesting that justin has a boyfriend

btw, before there was such a thing as christianity, where did peoples' souls go to? and what about animals that aren't humans? do they have souls? i mean, the other animals were here before us..

just some things i've been wondering.

[sikdragon]

before christianity there was judaism before religion there were leaders of the tribe who filtered God's word through the world. They started as elders and it slowly became legend. This would explain why so much of the world has many of the same princables. I don't really know. That would be my guess. Humans were here at creation, be it 144 hours after the beginning of it or 6000 years into it they didn't evolve from a lesser specie. You can't apply unaccepted philosophy to christian doctrine and expect them to coincide. Maybe i misunderstood you. Animals have no soul. They don't have personality, they have learned reactions to their instinct, but they aren't human. neandrathals*SP?* were human.

uninspiredfae is a guy??? wow. i had no idea. seriously.

[sammi rules you]

haha i thought justin posted above you. nevermind. hahahahhaa. i'll edit this in a second.....whooooops.

but..if god was here forever..why didn't earlier humans and other animals identify god and worship him?

[sadolakced acid]

a note on the blind attacks, how can you understand fully something you've never experienced?

what haven't i experienced?

in case you didn't know, i used to go to a christian private school. guess that's why i'm 'the antichrist'.

[sikdragon]

Going to church or christian school doesnt make you a christian.

[sadolakced acid]

Going to church or christian school doesnt make you a christian.

no, it lets me understand christianity.

[sammi rules you]

but it makes you experience it, something you said he hadn't.

[sikdragon]

no it doesnt. You cant fully understand something you've never experienced. He hasn't.

[sadolakced acid]

what haven't i experienced?

[sikdragon]

God.

[sadolakced acid]

God.

how do you experience god, exactly?

btw, i thought we were talking about the bible, not god...

[sikdragon]

the bible is God's word. The bible is how to reach God. The whole point of the bible is to experience God. You ask for God and he will appear before you. When i say ask, i mean ask in honesty, not just with your lips.

[cookieskater2]

*sigh*

I'm a strong christian, and some of the replies to this make me sad lol. And stop it with your Aethiesm people. My definition of Aethiesm is Some know-it-all teenager who pretends to hate religion, but celebrates Christmas because s/he is a greedy hypocrite.

[sikdragon]

*sigh*

I'm a strong christian, and some of the replies to this make me sad lol. And stop it with your Aethiesm people. My definition of Aethiesm is Some know-it-all teenager who pretends to hate religion, but celebrates Christmas because s/he is a greedy hypocrite.

Not a good witness buddy. Jesus never said tear down the other religions. He said to love your neighbor.

[cookieskater2]

But you are supposed to point out the obvious wrongs, and the kids who cash in on Jesus's Birthday are obviously wrong...

[sikdragon]

You don't help anyone by forcing your hand.

[cookieskater2]

I didn't force anything.