Pledge Of Allegiance, recitation in schools |
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 Apr 24 2005, 09:13 PM
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#1
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 "Silly me, I thought this was a free country"  Group: Human Posts: 1,666 Joined: Nov 2004 Member No: 60,913  |
I just wanna know what everyone thinks about this. Recently, for my AP government class we had to do an essay about wether reciting the pledge of allegiance in public schools was constitutional or not. This is pretty much what i wrote:
If the school officials force all the students to recite the pledge, then It is unconstitutional... Violates the Lemon Test, standard 2 I believe... If it's voluntary to say the pledge during school, then it it doesn't not violate the Establishment Clause (passes the lemon test) Anyone else have an opinion about this? |
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Apr 24 2005, 09:39 PM
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#2
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 dripping destruction Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 7,282 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 21,929 |
lemon test?
anyways; this isn't a debate, but let's make it one. The pledge is recited in schools. It is optional to recite. however; students are required to stand at attention of the flag. This is something that should change. Students should be able to choose whether or not they wish to recognize thier flag. |
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Apr 24 2005, 10:00 PM
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#3
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 crushed. Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 9,432 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 20,026 |
what is the lemon test?
I agree with you guys--as long as it stays optional, I have no problem with it. We just kind of have to stay quiet during the pledge, but I don't mind. |
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Apr 24 2005, 11:20 PM
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#4
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"Silly me, I thought this was a free country" Group: Human Posts: 1,666 Joined: Nov 2004 Member No: 60,913 |
LoL The Lemon Test is a test that is used to see wether something violates the Establsihmet Clause or not.... There are three standards for the Lemon Test
1) It must have a secular purpose 2) The primary principal must not inhibat or advance religion 3) Excessive government entanglement w/ religion In the voluntary example, it meets all of these standards. In the one where the school forces students to recite the pledge, it fails number 2/3 because the government mandated the forced recitation of the pledge. I hope you all understand that.... The lemon test is pretty simple to understand... the statue or whatever has to meet ALL three standards to NOT violate the Establishment Clause. |
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Apr 25 2005, 05:20 AM
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#5
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 Senior Member Group: Member Posts: 349 Joined: Apr 2005 Member No: 124,513 |
I think its wrong if its forced, and my grammer school forced us or we got a detention, and I think thats wrong, I'm not un patriotic I just don't feel its right to do something that I don't want to do, I refuse to honor a flag, and forsee the flag as if it were a god or something and I have to pledge to it, yeah I love my country but its values are riduculous sometimes, and I can't honor it. Sorry thats just me...
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Apr 25 2005, 05:57 AM
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#6
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 RAWR. Group: Member Posts: 2,585 Joined: Feb 2005 Member No: 102,641 |
eh I wish I cared enough. Ig uess I could understand not being forced to do it if you are from another country and not a us citizen, but its respectful to stand for other nations flags. Ever watch the olympics? when they play the anthem for the winning country, everyone stands in respect. SO i understand making eople stand, but yeah, you hsouldnt be forced to learn it. Just respect it.
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Apr 25 2005, 08:07 AM
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#7
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 former member Group: Member Posts: 706 Joined: Apr 2005 Member No: 122,339 |
purple ponies (self-deleted 12/06)
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Apr 25 2005, 09:34 AM
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#8
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 Remember your unique.... just like everybody else! Group: Member Posts: 148 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 71,858 |
Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean it is wrong, thats why we have so many ammendments.
It is just a matter of respect.....if you don't like some of the values of America..tuff shyt.... you live here don't you? If you hate it that much that you cannot stand for less than 10 seconds then you shouldn't have the privledge to live here in the first place. It is not like it is going to kill you or damage/corrupt your beliefs. In fact the people that are most readily to stand for the flag are people who were not born in this country.....go figure....it is just respect, it does not reflect or change their beliefs and they know that. Just like Karamelle said about the Olympics, there everyone stands for any country's flag and anthem in respect, despite their beliefs. |
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Apr 25 2005, 01:38 PM
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#9
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 My name's Katt. Nice to meet you! Group: Member Posts: 3,826 Joined: Jan 2005 Member No: 93,674 |
QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 8:34 AM) Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean it is wrong, thats why we have so many ammendments. It is just a matter of respect.....if you don't like some of the values of America..tuff shyt.... you live here don't you? If you hate it that much that you cannot stand for less than 10 seconds then you shouldn't have the privledge to live here in the first place. It is not like it is going to kill you or damage/corrupt your beliefs. In fact the people that are most readily to stand for the flag are people who were not born in this country.....go figure....it is just respect, it does not reflect or change their beliefs and they know that. Just like Karamelle said about the Olympics, there everyone stands for any country's flag and anthem in respect, despite their beliefs.  I guess you're right. From a law standpoint, it should be optional to say the Pledge of Alliegance. Maybe you're a kid that doesn't like the way America operates and you just plain don't like to live in it, but you can't leave because obviously you're a minor. Well, it's your own right that you don't want to say the pledge, but it is a matter of respect and morals if you want to say the pledge. I personally, don't like to say the pledge (and I don't), not because I hate the country (I don't like it either), but it's just redundant that we have to do it every single day. This kind of goes along with freedom of speech. |
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Apr 25 2005, 03:49 PM
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#10
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dripping destruction Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 7,282 Joined: Jun 2004 Member No: 21,929 |
QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 9:34 AM) Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean it is wrong, thats why we have so many ammendments. It is just a matter of respect.....if you don't like some of the values of America..tuff shyt.... you live here don't you? If you hate it that much that you cannot stand for less than 10 seconds then you shouldn't have the privledge to live here in the first place. It is not like it is going to kill you or damage/corrupt your beliefs. In fact the people that are most readily to stand for the flag are people who were not born in this country.....go figure....it is just respect, it does not reflect or change their beliefs and they know that. Just like Karamelle said about the Olympics, there everyone stands for any country's flag and anthem in respect, despite their beliefs. wait... you're saying if i don't agree with america's policies i'm unamerican, and should leave? i am an american citizen i've never lived outside the country i would serve my country if called upon but i will NOT say the pledge of alleigance. why? it stands for something i don't believe in. It stands for religion, it stands for a lack of freedom, and it stands as a tribute to the hipocracy of our nation. does that mean it makes me unamerican? i certainly hope not. but if it does, then that's another reason to not say the pledge. |
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Apr 25 2005, 03:59 PM
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#11
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 Another ditch in the road... you keep moving Group: Member Posts: 6,281 Joined: Jan 2005 Member No: 85,152 |
QUOTE It is not like it is going to kill you or damage/corrupt your beliefs. so, forced recitation of something i dont believe doesnt hurt my beliefs? QUOTE .....if you don't like some of the values of America..tuff shyt.... you live here don't you im sorry.. .but i was given to understand that america was more or less run on the principles of democracy? you seem to have confused it with a dictatorship of some kind |
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| *xcaitlinx* |
Apr 25 2005, 04:04 PM
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#12
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Guest |
QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 9:34 AM) Just because something is unconstitutional doesn't mean it is wrong, thats why we have so many ammendments. It is just a matter of respect.....if you don't like some of the values of America..tuff shyt.... you live here don't you? If you hate it that much that you cannot stand for less than 10 seconds then you shouldn't have the privledge to live here in the first place. It is not like it is going to kill you or damage/corrupt your beliefs. In fact the people that are most readily to stand for the flag are people who were not born in this country.....go figure....it is just respect, it does not reflect or change their beliefs and they know that. Just like Karamelle said about the Olympics, there everyone stands for any country's flag and anthem in respect, despite their beliefs. bahhh...another sad excuse for the stereotypical ignorant american. Does the government brainwash you that much where you think that it's wrong to have an opinion that goes against the government? That's why we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH hun. Ooh and yes, i do live in America. I'm 14 years old and I have no other choice but to live here since i'm not legal. When I'm out of college, I most likely will move out of the country if it continues to be like it is today. You don't have the priviledge to speak because you're being completely one-sided and can't see past your sheltered views. Go out into the real world hun, not everyone is conservative and overly patriotic/pro-American. QUOTE im sorry.. .but i was given to understand that america was more or less run on the principles of democracy? you seem to have confused it with a dictatorship of some kind hehe...i wish it was a complete democracy. It's a REPUBLIC democracy. *sigh* |
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Apr 25 2005, 04:09 PM
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#13
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Another ditch in the road... you keep moving Group: Member Posts: 6,281 Joined: Jan 2005 Member No: 85,152 |
^
yeah... i did say more or less, and the idea is sound, so lets let that little detail go, eh? anyway, regardless of that, itstill stands that america protects the right to free speech, or the lack thereof, and therefore, as i see should not enforce th epledge of alligence on its citizens that made more sense in my head. i'll edit back and clarify |
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Apr 25 2005, 04:19 PM
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#14
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"Silly me, I thought this was a free country" Group: Human Posts: 1,666 Joined: Nov 2004 Member No: 60,913 |
QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 9:34 AM) if you don't like some of the values of America..tuff shyt.... hmmm... I thought this was a free country.... |
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Apr 25 2005, 05:20 PM
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#15
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 HAAAAAAAA. Group: Member Posts: 4,472 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 75,068 |
QUOTE(simx @ Apr 25 2005, 4:19 PM) hmmm... I thought this was a free country.... People say it is. But in my opinion, I don't think it is at all. |
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| *xcaitlinx* |
Apr 25 2005, 06:46 PM
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#16
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QUOTE(im_s0_sp0ngey @ Apr 25 2005, 5:20 PM) People say it is. But in my opinion, I don't think it is at all. the U.S. IS a free country...but ignorant people make it otherwise... |
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Apr 25 2005, 07:42 PM
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#17
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 Quand j'étais jeune... Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 |
An opinion from a naturalized American.
One of the reason why I NEVER fail to cite the pledge is because I love the country that allows me the choice to cite the pledge or not to cite it. It's rather Though, I do loathe it when people degrade the pledge. |
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Apr 25 2005, 09:23 PM
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#18
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Remember your unique.... just like everybody else! Group: Member Posts: 148 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 71,858 |
QUOTE(caytexo @ Apr 25 2005, 4:04 PM) bahhh...another sad excuse for the stereotypical ignorant american. Does the government brainwash you that much where you think that it's wrong to have an opinion that goes against the government? That's why we have FREEDOM OF SPEECH hun. Ooh and yes, i do live in America. I'm 14 years old and I have no other choice but to live here since i'm not legal. When I'm out of college, I most likely will move out of the country if it continues to be like it is today. You don't have the priviledge to speak because you're being completely one-sided and can't see past your sheltered views. Go out into the real world hun, not everyone is conservative and overly patriotic/pro-American. hehe...i wish it was a complete democracy. It's a REPUBLIC democracy. *sigh* haha... i am in the real world hun...at least i am in college unlike a 14 year old on here that has never experienced it for herself  , telling ME that I have sheltered views...lol...thats funny.I'm not being one-sided if you read my post corectly. I am not a conservative AT ALL. Just because you live in a so called FREE country does not mean you can do whatever you want! that is a commom misconception i see in this debate. If we had the right to do whatever we feel, this country wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Of course i know i can have my own opinion against the government, i have many, but for some reason a lot of people always feel the need to have them for no good reason, and their only excuse is..."but i thought this was a free country?" The pledge of allegiance will only affect your beliefs if you let it, and thats true for those i have spoken to from other countries who do not live under American beliefs what-so-ever. They believe in its appropriateness...if only those who live in this country would feel the same way. You DO have the choice afterall...what more do you want? but again we live in a place full of ignorant americans, where people always want the rights they don't have, justify what rights they should have, and curse the rights they already have. |
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Apr 25 2005, 09:42 PM
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#19
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Quand j'étais jeune... Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 |
QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 9:23 PM) I'm not being one-sided if you read my post corectly. I am not a conservative AT ALL. Just because you live in a so called FREE country does not mean you can do whatever you want! that is a commom misconception i see in this debate. If we had the right to do whatever we feel, this country wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Of course i know i can have my own opinion against the government, i have many, but for some reason a lot of people always feel the need to have them for no good reason, and their only excuse is..."but i thought this was a free country?" I'm sorry to have quoted you out of context, but I was just wondering if you think those who do not say the pledge belong in the category of being "commonly misconceived". QUOTE but again we live in a place full of ignorant americans, where people always want the rights they don't have, justify what rights they should have, and curse the rights they already have. Beautifully said. |
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Apr 25 2005, 09:59 PM
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#20
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Remember your unique.... just like everybody else! Group: Member Posts: 148 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 71,858 |
QUOTE(uninspiredfae @ Apr 25 2005, 9:42 PM) I'm sorry to have quoted you out of context, but I was just wondering if you think those who do not say the pledge belong in the category of being "commonly misconceived". I think it is very resonable if a person honestly does not feel comfortable reciting the pledge. It is only those who do it out of pure laziness, imature rebellion, impatience to its redundancy, etc.... i use to see that a lot in class and I could clearly distinguish between the two. If that answers your question...lol |
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Apr 25 2005, 10:34 PM
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#21
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Quand j'étais jeune... Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 6,826 Joined: Jan 2004 Member No: 1,272 |
QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 9:59 PM) I think it is very resonable if a person honestly does not feel comfortable reciting the pledge. It is only those who do it out of pure laziness, imature rebellion, impatience to its redundancy, etc.... i use to see that a lot in class and I could clearly distinguish between the two. If that answers your question...lol It did, thanks. I feel the same, almost. I was worried that you were one of those radicals who thinks not citing the pledge is a punishable crime. |
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Apr 25 2005, 11:24 PM
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#22
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 cellophane chests? Group: Member Posts: 488 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 75,816 |
When I was in high school, my school set aside time every Wednesday to say the pledge...(it may have been Friday, hell I don't remember). We only did the whole pledge thing once a week. I always thought that it was pointless. If the school officials didn't see it as important enough to set aside time everyday to do it, then why should I waste my class time to stand up, say it and then listen to everyone else's bs afterwards?? Might as well stay seated, continue working and then hand in my homework before class was over and get the hell out of there.....
It's not unconstitutional to set aside time for it and the school, by federal law, cannot make students stand and say it of their own volition. There was an actual ruling some years ago about the pledge in schools and prayer in schools as well, I do believe, I just don't have the energy to google it right now.... The school has to have the parents permission to force or require students to do anything that is considered to be "optional" or in possible violation of any known religious beliefs.... |
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Apr 26 2005, 09:44 AM
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#23
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 yan lin♥ Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 14,129 Joined: Apr 2004 Member No: 13,627 |
i think it's all right if it's optional, but definately wrong if its forced. if it's forced, then the 5th amendment would be violated.
edit// 3000 post! |
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| *xcaitlinx* |
Apr 26 2005, 03:15 PM
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#24
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QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Apr 25 2005, 9:23 PM) haha... i am in the real world hun...at least i am in college unlike a 14 year old on here that has never experienced it for herself , telling ME that I have sheltered views...lol...thats funny.Well you obviously think that you're more intelligent than me because your in college, which is a one-sided view in itself. Btw---I was saying that you have sheltered views because you said "tuff shyt" to whomever disagrees with the constitution or the government. |
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Apr 26 2005, 03:33 PM
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#25
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Remember your unique.... just like everybody else! Group: Member Posts: 148 Joined: Dec 2004 Member No: 71,858 |
QUOTE(caytexo @ Apr 26 2005, 3:15 PM) Well you obviously think that you're more intelligent than me because your in college, which is a one-sided view in itself. You made your own judgements of me in your response...saying i am a brainwashed, conservative, stereotypical, ignorant american did you not? All of which i am against and if you read ALL of my posts you would realize that....who is making the judgements now? I do have more experience than you in the real world and i can say that for anyone who has been in college...i was not measuring it by intelligence mind you, but by experience....seeing how you did not understand what i was trying to say in the first place doesn't make you any more open-minded than you perceived me to be. QUOTE Btw---I was saying that you have sheltered views because you said "tuff shyt" to whomever disagrees with the constitution or the government. Look at my last post in context please!...i am not going against people who disagree with the constitution, that would be inconsistant of me. |
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