Presidential Debate: ROUND II Options

[Retrogressive]

Who do you think will win/won the debate? I pulled this from BBC news (although it is rather... simple) it is a prediction of the debate: BUSH vs. KERRY

[Heathasm]

meh, i dont like bbc, it's just like cbs nbc and abc
i think the debate tonight will be kind of pointless:
a bunch of "undecided" people are gonna awrite the "questions " and a guy from abc liberal news is gonna pick the questions to ask, so i have a feeling there will be no real questions directed toward kerry itll be all about attacking bush...i can't predict who will win, so im just going to say bush

[JasonAkAWolf]

my Busy will win muhaha

[Retrogressive]

JasonAKAWolf... please DO NOT SPAM!!!!!

I don't think it will be completely pointless, yea I guess it is used to pull in some undecided voters, but the debate could sway people's opinions.

[Heathasm]

i think the undecided voter people are kind of bs, im almost sure that every one voting has chosen their candidate by now....debates never have changed an election, and i dont think it will now damn i wish i could vote lol

[Retrogressive]

debates never swayed someones opinion in an election WOW! You obviously didn't see the debates of 2000 between Bush and Gore.

[*kryogenix*]

best line: "I own a timber company? That's news to me!"

[strice]

i think the undecided voter people are kind of bs, im almost sure that every one voting has chosen their candidate by now....debates never have changed an election, and i dont think it will now damn i wish i could vote lol

it affected the kennedy/nixon election. kennedy and nixon were about equal in the polls but when the debates were aired and nixon was sweating profusely while kennedy was looking smooth and collected, kennedy gained instant popularity.

[Retrogressive]

what a great debate eh?

What was up with the timber company what are Kerry's sources?

[expoised]

BUSH won the debate definately. I actually watched the ENTIRE THING.

i'm happy. Bush did a good job!!! there were a lotta funny things. such as the timber company hahaha.

and then the moderator getting shut up. =]

[Retrogressive]

your kidding? Bush looking like an idiot makes him win?

[expoised]

i think the undecided voter people are kind of bs, im almost sure that every one voting has chosen their candidate by now....debates never have changed an election, and i dont think it will now damn i wish i could vote lol

um actually. that's not true. I know many people, especially younger people, who just turned 18 and never really paid attention to politics. a lot of my friends actually skipped the homecoming game to see the debate.

i wish i could vote too.

[expoised]

your kidding? Bush looking like an idiot makes him win?

sorry for double posting but...

i never said Bush looked like an idiot. He was joking around when he said that because obviously, he doesn't own a timber company (.. i don't think). so how the hell does that make him look like an idiot? And shutting up the moderator also didn't make him look like an idiot. He had something to say, so he said it. even though he wasn't supposed to.

i don't feel like arguing. its not like its gonna have any affect in this forum anyways.

[Retrogressive]

Yea I think with FUSE and MTV getting more political there are a lot more aware young people. But for the most part, the youth of america has always been pretty into politics (or was that just 60's, 70's and 80's?)

[*kryogenix*]

Yea I think with FUSE and MTV getting more political there are a lot more aware young people. But for the most part, the youth of america has always been pretty into politics (or was that just 60's, 70's and 80's?)

Bush definitely won that debate. Kerry assumed that he would have an easy win, and got overconfident. And then he lied.

[thanhmai]

best line: "I own a timber company? That's news to me!"

hahaha

[IIO__oII]

i think they spent alot of time attacking each other's ideas and mistakes in the past.... =/

i hate presidents. :]

[expoised]

Bush definitely won that debate. Kerry assumed that he would have an easy win, and got overconfident. And then he lied.

yeah, that's how i felt.

[xmagicked]

I think that Kerry Should win this election! why b/c Bush is a fuckign retard. Did you know that he has already caused 7,400 in debt for EVERY! american. thats not cool, that means when im old enough to pay taxes that im gunna have to pay b/c of his stupidnesss about Iraq. Bush has no idea what the hell he ever tlaks about and Kerry atleast has Ideas of making america better all bush wants to do is run over iraq so he can prove that america is strong (bush wants the oil) proving that america is strong is stupid every other country knows we are the best so get over there do the job and get back, bush seems to havce a problem with that and his lies. If we have bush run this country for another 4 years, you will have more dect (btw its the highest its ever been) and he will take this country to the ground with a stupidasss draft. i dont wanna go to war do you? well i dont know everything about bush or kerry but i can say that i dotn want another monkey running out country. (exspecialy when he thinks that gay marrige shouldnt be a loud) WHO CARES IOF GAY PEOPEL GET MARRIED! hes bring his faith to his job and thats not right church boy. the Choose or Lose program is GREAT! but if your young and voting this year be sure you know what is going on dont just vote for who your friends are voting for vote for who you think is the bets canidate. sorry cant spell today. GO VOTE!.....for kerry

Maybe this will help you make your choice!!!! Bush In 30 Seconds..watch him kill us.

[Spirited Away]

If you think the president is a retard for causing debt you might want to consider that almost every president that preceeded him have increased national debt in some way. AND Kerry will be no different if he wins this election.

Please refrain from stating irrelevant facts with such confidence because some people will take you seriously without knowing the whole story.

As for Bush being a monkey because he disapproves of gay marriages... every other person in the country is a monkey because they hold a different opinion than you?

[expoised]

I think that Kerry Should win this election! why b/c Bush is a fuckign retard

that's your own opinion and just for your information. the last time i checked, bush wasn't mentally retarded.

Did you know that he has already caused 7,400 in debt for EVERY! american. thats not cool, that means when im old enough to pay taxes that im gunna have to pay b/c of his stupidnesss about Iraq

every other president before him ran up taxes and debt. its not going to be any better than john kerry.

Bush has no idea what the hell he ever tlaks about and Kerry atleast has Ideas of making america better

bush actually does have an idea of what he talks about. and all that kerry ever says is that he disagrees with bush and bush is bad. he never exactly stated his plan to make this war better. everything he says he'd do, was exactly what bush already did.

he will take this country to the ground with a stupidasss draft

did you even watch the debate? its a f**king rumor going over the internet.

WHO CARES IOF GAY PEOPEL GET MARRIED! hes bring his faith to his job and thats not right church boy

of course he brings his faith into his job. when you're a christian, (or whatever you might be), your background faith ALWAYS affects the way you think and you act. If he didn't bring his faith into his job, then he wouldn't be 100% sure of what he decides to do is the right thing. and as president, he has to make decisions that he thinks are ethically correct. so of COURSe his faith has an impact on us. are you one of the idiots who want to cut "one nation under god" out of the pledge of allegiance too?

next time, before you bullshit, get your facts straight. maybe you should watch the debate... or if you did watch it, maybe you should pay attention to BOTH sides.

[silver-rain]

poised,Oct 9 2004, 12:11 AM] sorry for double posting but...

i never said Bush looked like an idiot. He was joking around when he said that because obviously, he doesn't own a timber company (.. i don't think). so how the hell does that make him look like an idiot? And shutting up the moderator also didn't make him look like an idiot. He had something to say, so he said it. even though he wasn't supposed to.

i don't feel like arguing. its not like its gonna have any affect in this forum anyways.

well, actually, bush does own a timber company. (http://factcheck.org/)
hmm, i think the debate was pretty good- and that bush did better this time than last time.

[expoised]

well, actually, bush does own a timber company. (http://factcheck.org/)
hmm, i think the debate was pretty good- and that bush did better this time than last time.

but it really wasn't something he did on his own. he invested in a company which invested in a timber thing.

[*CrackedRearView*]

well, actually, bush does own a timber company. (http://factcheck.org/)
hmm, i think the debate was pretty good- and that bush did better this time than last time.

Wrong.

CNN put out a fact/fiction report that said Bush has a stock in some company who owns part of a timber company...

Bush doesn't operate or own a timber company at all.

It also showed the fallacy behind Kerry's statement about 1.6 million jobs lost.

He forgets to take into account the 800,000+ government jobs given out this year, as well, he falsely stated that Bush is the first president in decades to allow jobs lost.

[Heathasm]

Kerry did not give the full facts, all he did was state the bad effects (rather than the good obviously) of every thing bush had to do to make things better. He also lied about a "few" things, stated in this thread and other threads-Which allows me to say for a fact that bush won the debate

when im old enough to pay taxes that im gunna have to pay b/c of his stupidnesss about Iraq.

And when you get old enough to pay taxes, and kerry is president, they will be higher than you can joke about ;)

and he will take this country to the ground with a stupidasss draft. i dont wanna go to war do you?

yeah, you didn't watch the debate. bush more than clearly stated THERE WILL NOT BE ANOTHER DRAFT, GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD....the freewill signup is working perfectly fine, and that is exactly what he said, there will be no draft!


....that website is beyond stupid

I think you prove my point that no one can tell me on here, or in person, why they want john kerry for president, and why the president is so horrible

[*CrackedRearView*]

I think that Kerry Should win this election! why b/c Bush is a fuckign retard. Did you know that he has already caused 7,400 in debt for EVERY! american. thats not cool, that means when im old enough to pay taxes that im gunna have to pay b/c of his stupidnesss about Iraq. Bush has no idea what the hell he ever tlaks about and Kerry atleast has Ideas of making america better all bush wants to do is run over iraq so he can prove that america is strong (bush wants the oil) proving that america is strong is stupid every other country knows we are the best so get over there do the job and get back, bush seems to havce a problem with that and his lies. If we have bush run this country for another 4 years, you will have more dect (btw its the highest its ever been) and he will take this country to the ground with a stupidasss draft. i dont wanna go to war do you? well i dont know everything about bush or kerry but i can say that i dotn want another monkey running out country. (exspecialy when he thinks that gay marrige shouldnt be a loud) WHO CARES IOF GAY PEOPEL GET MARRIED! hes bring his faith to his job and thats not right church boy. the Choose or Lose program is GREAT! but if your young and voting this year be sure you know what is going on dont just vote for who your friends are voting for vote for who you think is the bets canidate. sorry cant spell today. GO VOTE!.....for kerry

Maybe this will help you make your choice!!!! Bush In 30 Seconds..watch him kill us.

Pal...let me make this simple for you..

The pattern is this.

Republican, republican, low taxes. People get sick of republicans, and vote in a democrat, bam taxes raise. Republican, republican, tax drops. Democrat, bam taxes raise.

[expoised]

Wrong.

CNN put out a fact/fiction report that said Bush has a stock in some company who owns part of a timber company...

Bush doesn't operate or own a timber company at all.

It also showed the fallacy behind Kerry's statement about 1.6 million jobs lost.

He forgets to take into account the 800,000+ government jobs given out this year, as well, he falsely stated that Bush is the first president in decades to allow jobs lost.

exactly what i said. at least... the first part of it.

[expoised]

Kerry did not give the full facts, all he did was state the bad effects (rather than the good obviously) of every thing bush had to do to make things better. He also lied about a "few" things, stated in this thread and other threads-Which allows me to say for a fact that bush won the debate



And when you get old enough to pay taxes, and kerry is president, they will be higher than you can joke about ;)




yeah, you didn't watch the debate. bush more than clearly stated THERE WILL NOT BE ANOTHER DRAFT, GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD....the freewill signup is working perfectly fine, and that is exactly what he said, there will be no draft!


....that website is beyond stupid

I think you prove my point that no one can tell me on here, or in person, why they want john kerry for president, and why the president is so horrible

oh wow. we thought exactly the same thing hahaha.

BUSH-CHENEY !!!

[ComradeRed]

According to Rasmussen, 41% of Americans believe Kerry won, 40% believe Bush won, and 19% believe it was a tie. Gallup shows similar numbers, with 3% higher for Kerry than Bush -- all within the MoE.

In the absence of defining what a win is (like in football, we know the team that wins is the team that gets the most points), one cannot say for a fact who won ... according to poll numbers, there was no winner.

No matter who won, the American people lose.

[Retrogressive]

comradred, I am very surprised that you find any polls accurate in predicting the future of this country. You of all people should know that the polls are just the bottom line of a few people's opinion. Come on-- we expect much more.

[ComradeRed]

comradred, I am very surprised that you find any polls accurate in predicting the future of this country. You of all people should know that the polls are just the bottom line of a few people's opinion. Come on-- we expect much more.

Uh... no.

Good polls (like Rasmussen and Gallup) are done with complex statistical methods that insure that most people are represented. The best polls are often within 0.5-1% of the actaul result of presidential elections in the week before the election.

Any single black mother who goes to church often and makes $30,000 a year and lives in urban St. Louis will probably vote teh same as another single black mother making $30,000 a year living in St. Louis and going to church often. Results can be extrapolated.

If polls were useless, they wouldn't be around any more.

[ComradeRed]

And when you get old enough to pay taxes, and kerry is president, they will be higher than you can joke about ;)

If you didn't hear Kerry, he said he'd lower middle class taxes ... Unless you trust Bush on not restarting the draft (I trust him on this, BTW, I'm just pointing out that you are a hypocrite) but not Kerry on cutting taxes.

[Retrogressive]

I don't really trust CNN's polls but they are still around?

Why do you trust Bush on not reopening the DRAFT? I mean his father said "read my lips no more new taxes..." but well you know the story. But I guess I can't base my opinion on something someones father did.....

[ComradeRed]

Congress wouldn't allow it... 75% of hte Congressmen that vote for the draft will be out in the next election. the House of Representatives rushed the vote on the draft, where it failed 402-2. The two pro votes were both from the democrats who had originally cosponsored the draft bill.

If you actually read the draft bill, parts of it are ridiculous -- like kids will no longer be allowed to finish college, they have to go in the army first. It is patently clear that the bill was written by some democrats to scare the living crap out of republican congressmen so that they would vote against future war.

CNN's polls are very trustworthy. Not the ones on their website, but CNN has Gallup do all its TV polls for them. Gallup has been around for decades and is widely regarded as the best polling firm in the country.

[Retrogressive]

Where do you read the bills and such? I have asked around about trying to find Kerry's voting reocrd and other things but it turns out people are just basing their views on heresay.

I guess I was thinking of CNN's internet polls since I don't really watch CNN just check them up on the internet.

[Spirited Away]

kerry's voting record

[ComradeRed]

Yes, Internet polls are meaningless because they are not statistically analyzed.

Try www.house.gov or www.congress.org or something. While you're at it, look up Representative Ron Paul (TX-R). He's my hero. Rep. Jeff Flake (AZ-R)'s my hero too.

[Retrogressive]

Wow, I never knew you had a hero. I thought you were just the superman of politics

[ComradeRed]

Everyone has a hero. Paul and Flake are the only members of the House of Representatives that I would trust with more than a penny.

But Paul was born in my hometown, so I give him the edge over Flakey Jeff.

www.rlc.org --> Why I still have some faith in the Republican Party.

Check out some of their ratings -- I wouldn't trust a lot of their economic freedom ratings, but their ratings for personal freedom are very reliable.

The two exceptions are John Kerry and John Edwards. Both of them are ranked really low because they spent most of 2004 campaigning and were not present for many votes. But all of the other Congressmen have fairly accurate ratings.

[Retrogressive]

Sounds to good to be true. But most republicans now days are power hungry, self-rightous idiots who will shoot anything that isn't a human and claim that it had a Kerry Edwards sticker on it's ass (I make this assumption because I live in Texas, therefore I can)
But how can you put faith in such a small group, but remaining to have faith the in all republicans?

[ComradeRed]

It shows that the Republican Party can still be saved from the inside, as opposed to teh Democratic Party, which must be invaded from the outside and then restored to the Democratic Party of Thomas Jefferson and Grover Cleveland, or even John F. Kennedy, who IMHO was the last good Democratic President.

There are 9 members of the House in the Liberty Caucus, and all 9's approval ratings have gone up after their membership -- which proves that the American people are ready for a change.

The RLC calls for the essential elements of good government, and I agree with almost all of its official positions (The only major difference would be that I am pro-choice ... but most northern State RLCs are pro-choice as well, I guess it's a geographical thing):

- Lower taxes
- Less spending
- Balanced budget
- Sound currency
- Freedom of speech, press, and conscience
- All-volunteer military
- Deregulation
- Privatization of social security and healthcare
- Term limits
- An end to the drug war
- Non-interventionist foreign policy
- The right to keep and bear arms
- Protection of private property

In short, the RLC seeks to restore the country to a Constitutional framework. There is no agency in the Democratic Party seeking to do that, which is why I still believe in the Republicans more than the Democrats. A minority is better than 0.

Besides, the best two presidents of the 20th century were both Republicans: Ronald Reagan and Calvin Coolidge. (Before you get up and arms about Silent Cal, I will debate anyone on the Great Depression, and prove that it was Hoover's fault [he tried to implement some welfare policies] and Roosevelt made it worse -- if we stuck with Coolidge's policies, it would never have happened).

[Retrogressive]

True- but minorities don't win.

[ComradeRed]

They become bigger and bigger until they are a majority.

[Retrogressive]

Then they become curropt and power hungry. It never goes right does it?

[Heathasm]

If you didn't hear Kerry, he said he'd lower middle class taxes ... Unless you trust Bush on not restarting the draft (I trust him on this, BTW, I'm just pointing out that you are a hypocrite) but not Kerry on cutting taxes.

I heard him, i don't believe him.

[LuZz]

like in hk... cant watch debate from here...

[lucky_clover]

i don't know who's going to win but i just want each of the canadate to tell the truth.

[expoised]

If you didn't hear Kerry, he said he'd lower middle class taxes ... Unless you trust Bush on not restarting the draft (I trust him on this, BTW, I'm just pointing out that you are a hypocrite) but not Kerry on cutting taxes.

taxes are a certain in every president. they all say they'd cut, but they never do.

but a draft is something totally different. if a president said he wouldn't reinstitute the draft, i'd be more likely to believe him than if he said he'd cut taxes.

that's just the way it works.

[ComradeRed]

poised,Oct 11 2004, 10:10 AM] taxes are a certain in every president. they all say they'd cut, but they never do.

but a draft is something totally different. if a president said he wouldn't reinstitute the draft, i'd be more likely to believe him than if he said he'd cut taxes.

that's just the way it works.

The tax record of twentieht century presidents:

*By taxes, I mean revenue in general -- Tariffs also count as taxes

Raised Taxes:
McKinley (1896)
TR (1901)
Taft (1908)
Wilson (1912)
Harding (1920)
Hoover (1928 -- one of the main causes of the great depression)
FDR -- Second, Third, and Fourth Terms (1936)
Truman (1948)
Johnson -- Second Term (1964)
Nixon (1968)
Ford (1973)
Bush XLI (1988)
Clinton (1992)

Lowered Taxes:
Coolidge (1923)
FDR -- First Term (1932)
Eisenhower (1952)
Kennedy (1960)
Johnson -- First Term (1962)
Carter (1976)
Reagan (1980)
Bush XLIII (2000)

Of the presdients that lowered taxes, 4 have been Republicans and 2 have been democrats. If you count Johnson and FDR, who lowered taxes intiiatlly but raised them later, the number becomes even -- at 4 from each party.

[NATIONAL BONER D...]

If polls were useless, they wouldn't be around any more.

I don't trust polls, especially when it relates to politics. We all know statistics are bullshit anyway. So and so are ahead in the polls today. Who f**king cares. Just because it's in the news doesn't make it true.

I'm not saying polls are totally useless, but they're no way a good indication of anything.

[ComradeRed]

Polls are a great indication of what people think RIGHT NOW.

Chances are, the polls the day before the election will be accurate to within 2 to 5%, depending on how good the polling firm is.

[NATIONAL BONER D...]

Polls are a great indication of what people think RIGHT NOW.

Chances are, the polls the day before the election will be accurate to within 2 to 5%, depending on how good the polling firm is.

A poll purports to tell you something about the population at large, or at least the population from which the sample was drawn. But the results of a poll in which thousands of people participate cannot be extrapolated to anything, because those results tell you only about the opinions of those who participated. Therefore, they're not an accurate measure of public opinion.

Like I said I don't think they're are totally useless but I don't trust them because they are somewhat inaccurate. And you have to factor in respondent honesty, socioeconomic bias, and etc. I understand what you're saying but I thought you of all people should know that you should not take polls so seriously.

[ComradeRed]

Yes they are. Polls are ststistically weighted to reflect the country at large. Stereotypes are sometimes useful. As I brought up before, a 40-year-old single black woman who goes to church every week makes $40,000 a year and is registered decmorat will probably vote the same as another 40-year-old single black woman who goes to church every week makes $40,000 a year and is registered democrat.