Proof, Please read the book first Options

[ppl_love_me]

You must look at, if not read, the book called "Evolution of the Creationist" to realy argue.

The man that wrote the book was an evolutionist, untill a scholar in the colledge he was teaching at asked him to look at the topic of creation. And the research he did (originaly to prove evolution) actually only gave more evedence of creation, and he found much more!

I think the school systems are actually affending religions. In the book He points out that being an evolutionist is haveing a religion, so they are teaching blasfamy. (can't spell sry)

Also, I think scientist can only prove god exsists or he doesn't. And alot of science is ageinst the laws of god and many other religions. like the genetic experimentation on making clones, it is like trying to be god, and prove that humans can function with out him.

If you dissagree with creation. then thorouly explain to me how the parent cell came to being? and How would an animal like the Incubator Bird (look it up ppl!) evolve? and tell me some documented FACTS that has been found.

just try...

[ComradeRed]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...solator+Bird%22

No standard web pages containing all your search terms were found.

Your search - "Insolator Bird" - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.

Science CANNOT prove whether God exists or not. For science to be able to prove something requires that you set up an experiment. How do you set up an experiment to prove that God exists?

However, creationism is a moronic idea. If creationism existed, that means that humans would be perfect (created in God's image, and God, of course, is perfect). This is clearly not true -- humans possess many different things that we never use, such as an appendix, tailbone, etc, that are all vestigal carryover structures from previous evolution. Thus, if you are arguing for creation, you are acutally arguing that God is imperfect, which I think is heresy according to almost all Christian faiths.

[Devastation]

reading some excerpts of the book, and it seems some facts need to be reread, as well as the opinions and conclusions.

[ppl_love_me]

I'm sorry, I spelled the name wrong. It is an "incubator bird"

Now, no we can not experiment to prove gods existance. BUT, you can't prove Evolution either! It has NEVER been proved. Nor are we calling God imperfact, he made us in his "image" not clone gods, that would be a mess! Then we would rebel ageinst him and become our own gods. Also the Devil makes us imperfact to.

As for the book. The man, as I said, was a very strong evolutionist. If he convinced himself, then don't you think it would only take the greatest amount of facts and evidence. So you will need to read more then that. It even has evedence from history.

As for our apendix, does evolution tell you how we obtained it?

Also, what about the concept of the universe, how did non-living cells create a living cell? And if a giraffe came from horses, then it would not exsist, because of its complex blood system. If it you look up how a giraffe gets blood to its head. you'll see. IT WOULD DIE! dead things CAN'T Evolve!

[ComradeRed]

Of course you can't prove evolution, but you can prove it beyond reasoned doubt.

The appendix was previously used as water storage in primitive mammals, which lived far inland away from amphibian and reptile-dominated coastal climates. This is no longer a problem for us today.

Non-living cells can create living cells. They've made prokaryotic bacteria from base compounds in labs already.

I didn't really understand your last paragraph, but evolution works by certain mutations. We call those mutations cancer. MOST mutants die, but a very small amount do survive and thus trigger speciation.

Giraffes didn't come from horses, they both probably shared a common ancestor previously.

Regarding perfection, even if God made us in his image, why would he give us things like a tailbone or appendix that have absolutely no use? Or are you implying that the devil had a hand in making us? The devil is portrayed as having a horned tail, so I guess you could say that's where our tailbone comes from.

[Spirited Away]

Now, no we can not experiment to prove gods existance. BUT, you can't prove Evolution either! It has NEVER been proved. Nor are we calling God imperfact, he made us in his "image" not clone gods, that would be a mess! Then we would rebel ageinst him and become our own gods. Also the Devil makes us imperfact to.

So, what's your point? You seem to agree that Creation is as much 'proven' or 'unproven' as Evolution.

As for the book. The man, as I said, was a very strong evolutionist. If he convinced himself, then don't you think it would only take the greatest amount of facts and evidence. So you will need to read more then that. It even has evedence from history.

You're focusing on the fact that one Evolutionist convinced himself of Creation, well, you're only presenting one side of the argument, chum, because there are quite a few Christians who believe in Evolution...

Read here if you're able, and it might present to you the other story from a Christian's perspective (especially the very last paragraph).

As for our apendix, does evolution tell you how we obtained it?

Monsieur ComradeRed did a wonderful job on answering you, though, I think the answer itself would've been quite obvious if you've taken a course or two in Biology...

[raw_material]

proof!!
read the bible thats proof!
Genesis 1:21.....so GOD created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves,of every kind with which the water swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. and GOD saw that it was good...
22...God blessed them saying "be fruithfull and multiplyand fill the waters in the seas, and let brids multiply on the earth"

genesis 27:1....So God created humankind in his image...in the image of god he created them male and female he created them
plz no hating lol

[gerundio]

proof!!
read the bible thats proof!
Genesis 1:21.....so GOD created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves,of every kind with which the water swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. and GOD saw that it was good...
22...God blessed them saying "be fruithfull and multiplyand fill the waters in the seas, and let brids multiply on the earth"

genesis 27:1....So God created humankind in his image...in the image of god he created them male and female he created them
plz no hating lol

[raw_material]

ha!! i had a fealing that u where the one that was gonna answer back lol thank u 4 not hating lol

[Spirited Away]

proof!!
read the bible thats proof!
Genesis 1:21.....so GOD created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves,of every kind with which the water swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. and GOD saw that it was good...
22...God blessed them saying "be fruithfull and multiplyand fill the waters in the seas, and let brids multiply on the earth"

genesis 27:1....So God created humankind in his image...in the image of god he created them male and female he created them
plz no hating lol

Read some biology books... that's considered proof, too. Universal proof, actually.

[Devastation]

scientific reasoning seriously needs to be double checked in the "spirited ones"

[Spirited Away]

scientific reasoning seriously needs to be double checked in the "spirited ones"

Huh?

I would've responded with something more substantial if I had a clue about what you've just said.

[ppl_love_me]

The guy IS a christian. and yes I know there many Christian that belive in evolution. But think about this. If god created us to beleive in him with our faith. Then wouldn't he want to give us a challenge? Why would he simply hand us the information, then there would be no reason to live. we live to discover the faith inside us.

so your saying that humans came from bacteria, which has completely different function then we do. and that we all came from animals. If that is so, then wouldn't we have a bit more "animal instinct" I have not gone threw Biology yet. So I am unaware of what the Molocule to Man thing says, but if we came from primapes, then why are there still primapes?

I know that evolution says that our cultures are evolving too, but infact, they are devolving, I won't layout the full chart, but If we started out with simple languages, than how come we have languages that are mor advanced than most of todays?

I am not trying to argue, for you info, I simply want to know why many people belive in Evolution. including Christians.

[Spirited Away]

I am not trying to argue, for you info, I simply want to know why many people belive in Evolution. including Christians.

Firstly, you're in the wrong forum if you're not here to argue.

The guy IS a christian. and yes I know there many Christian that belive in evolution. But think about this. If god created us to beleive in him with our faith. Then wouldn't he want to give us a challenge? Why would he simply hand us the information, then there would be no reason to live. we live to discover the faith inside us.

Secondly, please refrain from making the comment that there is no reason to live without God, because that is plenty ingorance in one simple sentence. Before the rise of Christianity, people can still live and prosper in happiness.

Was he Christian before being an evolutionist? If so, then what was your point? That this man proved evolution wrong?

so your saying that humans came from bacteria, which has completely different function then we do. and that we all came from animals. If that is so, then wouldn't we have a bit more "animal instinct" I have not gone threw Biology yet. So I am unaware of what the Molocule to Man thing says, but if we came from primapes, then why are there still primapes?

Hmm, ComradeRed will have to answer this for you when he is around since I lack the ability to speak coherently when it comes down to science. If he will not, then I will endeavor to do the deed.

I know that evolution says that our cultures are evolving too, but infact, they are devolving, I won't layout the full chart, but If we started out with simple languages, than how come we have languages that are mor advanced than most of todays?

Please "layout the full chart" for me as I'm having problem understanding this idea.

[ppl_love_me]

Secondly, please refrain from making the comment that there is no reason to live without God, because that is plenty ingorance in one simple sentence. Before the rise of Christianity, people can still live and prosper in happiness.

I never said that! What I ment was there is no reason to live without a challenge. Its a theoretical thing, suppose you were a god, would you want people to worship you because you exist, or because you are great enuf for us them to just have the faith that you are there. Think about it, if the whole world was christianity then it would be too easy and we would be weak. Like a Freshman, the devil would comtrol us in a matter of seconds.

Scientists want to prove humanity can live and prosper w/o god.

Christianity didn't Come on till the "death of christ" Christianity CAME frome Jewish religion. And religion, and the thought of a higher power, has been around for as long as we have, not just christians but others too. To prove Christianity is correct is a whole nother ball game.

Firstly, you're in the wrong forum if you're not here to argue.

I meant I don't want to start a full out fight. I don't want to turn out enemys.

Was he Christian before being an evolutionist? If so, then what was your point? That this man proved evolution wrong? 

No

Please "layout the full chart" for me as I'm having problem understanding this idea.

Well, its like where man started out with simple grunts then formed words, on to fragments, and then to sentences.

[sikdragon]

cloning isnt like trying to be God, it is still just like everything else, taking what is already there and modifying it. Only God can make something from nothing.

[raw_material]

"If god created us to beleive in him with our faith. Then wouldn't he want to give us a challenge? Why would he simply hand us the information, then there would be no reason to live. we live to discover the faith inside us."

there is a challenge...thats 2 promote gods word and his love...u might not see it like that cuz u actually dont believe was god states in the bible...but we do bcuz we kno wat our purpose in this earth is...2 make non believers into believers...thats a freaking challenge bcuz alot go againts wat we say....but it might not be a challenge bcuz he hands us the information so easy bcuz he loves us...i guess you would have 2 be in our shoes...

[Spirited Away]

I never said that! What I ment was there is no reason to live without a challenge. Its a theoretical thing, suppose you were a god, would you want people to worship you because you exist, or because you are great enuf for us them to just have the faith that you are there. Think about it, if the whole world was christianity then it would be too easy and we would be weak. Like a Freshman, the devil would comtrol us in a matter of seconds.

Then explain this, please:

Then wouldn't he want to give us a challenge? Why would he simply hand us the information, then there would be no reason to live.

That alone is a comment worth fighting with if you were speaking to a Deist for they believe that to further complicate God's existence with the Bible is just none sense. There are plenty of challenges in life that have NOTHING to do with religion, or do you not have to face them? IF God is loving, would he care if we worhip Him? However, your version of God seems to like being worshipped... what do YOU think about someone who likes to be worshipped?

No, YOU think about this, if the whole world followed the Christian faith, then no one would have to go to Hell, according to you. Relating this all back to your original story, if someone were Christian, he/she wouldn't have to go to Hell. Therefore, it is safe to assume that God INTENDED for many of His creations to go to Hell because of this "challenge". If He loves ALL of us, then He would GIVE PROOF that cannot be doubted or questioned so that we can all believe and go to Heaven.

Why do you say that we would be weak if we were all Christians? Do you think that as a Christian, you are weak? I don't think so. When I was a Freshman, I was optimistic and had a lot more courage to tackle things than when I was a Junior... so I don't quite understand what you mean by "weak".

Scientists want to prove humanity can live and prosper w/o god.

And can't we? Of course the answer would be a obvious coming from a Christian, but according to Atheists, there is no God, and we're doing just fine.

Christianity didn't Come on till the "death of christ" Christianity CAME frome Jewish religion. And religion, and the thought of a higher power, has been around for as long as we have, not just christians but others too. To prove Christianity is correct is a whole nother ball game.

I do not recall saying anything remotely close to what you've responded with... All I said is that there were people who lived quite contently without religion, without knowing God, or without the Christian's God.

I meant I don't want to start a full out fight. I don't want to turn out enemys.

There will always someone in the world who do not like you for some reason: how you walk, what you believe in, how you talk, your political ideals... etc, so don't worry about it too much. If you do not want to argue about this whole thing, then why did you post? God's existence/ Jesus's trials/Christianity/Atheism/Religion/etc, will always be controversial, so always be prepared face the other perspective.

No

To which question?

Well, its like where man started out with simple grunts then formed words, on to fragments, and then to sentences.

And that's "devolving" HOW?

[ppl_love_me]

No, YOU think about this, if the whole world followed the Christian faith, then no one would have to go to Hell, according to you. Relating this all back to your original story, if someone were Christian, he/she wouldn't have to go to Hell. Therefore, it is safe to assume that God INTENDED for many of His creations to go to Hell because of this "challenge". If He loves ALL of us, then He would GIVE PROOF that cannot be doubted or questioned so that we can all believe and go to Heaven.

All will go to Heaven! Your sins have been forgiven! That was the whole reason for Jesus. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world that he gave his onlybeggotten son, so that whomever beliveth in him, shall have eternal life." After jesus all go to heaven, but don't have eternal life. God also has never flooded the earth after Noah.

atleast that is what i belive it means.

That alone is a comment worth fighting with if you were speaking to a Deist for they believe that to further complicate God's existence with the Bible is just none sense. There are plenty of challenges in life that have NOTHING to do with religion, or do you not have to face them? IF God is loving, would he care if we worhip Him? However, your version of God seems to like being worshipped... what do YOU think about someone who likes to be worshipped?

ok worship might have taken it a bit harshly, more like LOVED.

there is a challenge...thats 2 promote gods word and his love...u might not see it like that cuz u actually dont believe was god states in the bible...but we do bcuz we kno wat our purpose in this earth is...2 make non believers into believers...thats a freaking challenge bcuz alot go againts wat we say....but it might not be a challenge bcuz he hands us the information so easy bcuz he loves us...i guess you would have 2 be in our shoes... 

ok, r u saying I'm not christian or are you talking about "us" as in evolutionists.

[Spirited Away]

All will go to Heaven! Your sins have been forgiven! That was the whole reason for Jesus. John 3:16 "For god so loved the world that he gave his onlybeggotten son, so that whomever beliveth in him, shall have eternal life." After jesus all go to heaven, but don't have eternal life. God also has never flooded the earth after Noah.

atleast that is what i belive it means.

Ah, you mustn't forget to include the limiting factor in your sentence, so the sentence should read: "All will go to Heaven, if he/she believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died on the cross for our sins".

Meaning, Heaven is granted to ONLY those who follow the faith, while the rest, no matter how good or virtuous, must go to Hell because of their disbelief.

ok worship might have taken it a bit harshly, more like LOVED.

Love isn't easily granted and, logically, one doesn't love something that he/she doesn't believe in. Surely, if God's existence and the trials of Jesus is proven without any doubt to be questioned, then everyone will love God. Because God is almighty, I don't think that's too much to ask for... which confuses the heck out of me.

ok, r u saying I'm not christian or are you talking about "us" as in evolutionists.

I think the comment was meant for me, but I will wait for him/her to confirm before replying.

[ReBeL_BlOoD]

As far as the bible goes, guess what the number one selling book, in any country, of all time is... Yup, the bible. (Its also the one book that is most often shoplifted, but thats irrelevant)

*God comes down to a scientist on the beach*
"God, your miracles are such miracles anymore"
"Why do you say that sir?"
"We have developed a formula to make a human out of dirt!"
"Really, go ahead"
*Scientist bends down to grab a handfull of dirt when God speaks*
"Oh no you dont. You have to use your OWN dirt!"

Think about it.....

[Spirited Away]

*God comes down to a scientist on the beach*
"God, your miracles are such miracles anymore"
"Why do you say that sir?"
"We have developed a formula to make a human out of dirt!"
"Really, go ahead"
*Scientist bends down to grab a handfull of dirt when God speaks*
"Oh no you dont. You have to use your OWN dirt!"

Think about it.....

Since when can we make humans out of dirt? I thought we can make humans from our OWN cells.

[raw_material]

"God also has never flooded the earth after Noah."
there was a reason why god flooded the earth back then if u would kno u wouldt ask that dumb question! im sure if he has 2 punish us 2day he wont flood the earth again.

"Since when can we make humans out of dirt? I thought we can make humans from our OWN cells. "
if your god im pretty sure u can make something out of nothing...thats wat we all are dirt bags...why we dont deserve everything god has given us in this world...we are just a bunch of sinners who could care less on wat god tells us...yet he loves us..

[Spirited Away]

"Since when can we make humans out of dirt?   I thought we can make humans from our OWN cells. "
if your god im pretty sure u can make something out of nothing...thats wat we all are dirt bags...why we dont deserve everything god has given us in this world...we are just a bunch of sinners who could care less on wat god tells us...yet he loves us..

What the heezee?? Since when do I have a "god"? I would like you to respect my belief, as well as others (even if I don't call Him "God", I refer to Him as the Creator), to capitalize deities from other religions. It's kind of rude not to... and that's the only reason why I capitalize "God" when I refer to the Christian God, to be respectful. And my perception of the Creator is NO WHERE NEAR how Christians perceive God.

If you want to believe that we're all dirtbags, that's fine with me, but I would like to faith in the human heart. Though we're "sinners", it is perfectly human to be imperfect as it is HUMAN to make mistakes and fall into temptation... but that's why we are here to help each other out...

It's not really nice to know that you think so lowly of humans ...

Me: Hey! Lets be friends!
You: We're all dirtbags, and undeserving of everything God has given us in this world
Me: >> >> >> >> >> If we're undeserving then lets all DIE.

[queen]

But think about this. If god created us to beleive in him with our faith. Then wouldn't he want to give us a challenge? Why would he simply hand us the information, then there would be no reason to live. we live to discover the faith inside us.

we live to discover the faith inside us?

...why don't we all just quit our jobs, drop out of school, and praise god night and day. throw away all our good clothing, 'cause there's no reason to get dressed up for parties or hangouts. destroy all our cars 'cause we don't need to go places. all we need to do all day is go to church and pray ;x

[ppl_love_me]

we live to discover the faith inside us?

...why don't we all just quit our jobs, drop out of school, and praise god night and day. throw away all our good clothing, 'cause there's no reason to get dressed up for parties or hangouts. destroy all our cars 'cause we don't need to go places. all we need to do all day is go to church and pray ;x

Don't you see? acording to the bible, Hod will provide for US! He loves us too much, we just have to LET him.

"consider the lilys in the fields, they do not work for money or clothe themselves,"(cant remember where that scripture is.) they get what they need without hassle so ya, God dosen't want us to worry, that he shall provide, no don't just sit on the street and expect things to appear, that would be considered testing God, which is a sin.

"Since when can we make humans out of dirt? I thought we can make humans from our OWN cells."
if your god im pretty sure u can make something out of nothing...thats wat we all are dirt bags...why we dont deserve everything god has given us in this world...we are just a bunch of sinners who could care less on wat god tells us...yet he loves us..

I don't know when science made humans of dirt, but consider this. God Might have made us from dirt so that our bodys would be of earth, and would return to the earth. As our spirit is released.

Answer me this, acording to science, is there a cause for all things to be made?

[Spirited Away]

Don't you see? acording to the bible, Hod will provide for US! He loves us too much, we just have to LET him.

"consider the lilys in the fields, they do not work for money or clothe themselves,"(cant remember where that scripture is.)  they get what they need without hassle so ya, God dosen't want us to worry, that he shall provide, no don't just sit on the street and expect things to appear, that would be considered testing God, which is a sin.

If He loves us so much, then He will let us do whatever makes us happy (within the bounderies of universal morality).

Nature provides for lilies. He doesn't want us to worry, yet many people still worry everyday fearing to get laid off or fired, murdered, raped, whether or not the next famine, earthquake, car accident will kill us. Do you mean to tell me that Christians do not have to worry about these things?

I know that if unfortunate events occured, it will be inevitable, but if God loves us, then why do unfortunate such things happen?

I don't just sit in the street and do nothing and get a job to help my family, and I certainly do NOT do nothing and expect anything great to happen to me. I work for what I have. My Mother didn't sit in the street and do nothing when her two of her children died and when her husband deserted her, she worked for the peace that she has today. She didn't pray to God, she didn't pray to any deities, but look unto herself for the strength to live. You may say that God was looking over her, but she told me that the only thing that bade her to struggle was the will to live and be happy. I suppose I should tell you that my Grandmother was Catholic (though not a hardcore believer), but my Mother chose to forgo religion at a young age and she allows me to do whatever it is that makes me happy, religion or not. We are not testing God, but we live with God or without God, and it matters not.

I don't know when science made humans of dirt, but consider this. God Might have made us from dirt so that our bodys would be of earth, and would return to the earth. As our spirit is released.

NO ONE claimed that science made life with dirt, but you claim that God made humans with dirt. I don't see how that can happen since we're of flesh and blood.

If you want to get philosophical, I shall continue with this...

If we're flesh and blood, yet our original form was of dirt from the Earth, then wouldn't the Earth be our Mother? Why do you not worship Mother Earth? Take for example your biological Mother and Father... It was by your Father's seed that you come into existence, but it was your Mother who nurtured you to life, then, is it not logical, and the right thing to do, to honor both parents?

Answer me this, acording to science, is there a cause for all things to be made?    

Rephrase your question. From what I understand, you're basically asking what is the purpose to our lives (the cause for our existence, which I understand to be the same thing unless you can explain otherwise), and that has been someone addressed in another thread. So if you can, rephrase it a bit.

[ppl_love_me]

Nature provides for lilies. He doesn't want us to worry, yet many people still worry everyday fearing to get laid off or fired, murdered, raped, whether or not the next famine, earthquake, car accident will kill us. Do you mean to tell me that Christians do not have to worry about these things?

We might worry, but that doesn't mean that we forget that God is still with us. But if foolish desisions are made than yes, you SHOULD worry.

I know that if unfortunate events occured, it will be inevitable, but if God loves us, then why do unfortunate such things happen?

You forget that one thing christians most often say, God has a purpose for every thing, and a reason for every action. Though we may not know it yet, things may change and become better in the end. You can not weaken, but by body, from unfortunate events, but strengthen in spirit.

If you want to bring experince in to the matter, my Grandmother has gone threw a divorce, breast cancer, two broken arms, two car accidents, gaulbladder removed, another sergery most recently, and her cat just died last month. All these things have happened, but I have never seen a happier person. Her faith couln't be stronger, she has never douted God. I belive God tests people, to test your faith, why? the same reason you get tested at school, to make sure you have it all down right.

I don't just sit in the street and do nothing and get a job to help my family, and I certainly do NOT do nothing and expect anything great to happen to me. I work for what I have. My Mother didn't sit in the street and do nothing when her two of her children died and when her husband deserted her, she worked for the peace that she has today. She didn't pray to God, she didn't pray to any deities, but look unto herself for the strength to live. You may say that God was looking over her, but she told me that the only thing that bade her to struggle was the will to live and be happy. I suppose I should tell you that my Grandmother was Catholic (though not a hardcore believer), but my Mother chose to forgo religion at a young age and she allows me to do whatever it is that makes me happy, religion or not. We are not testing God, but we live with God or without God, and it matters not.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sorry about what has happened.

Rephrase your question. From what I understand, you're basically asking what is the purpose to our lives (the cause for our existence, which I understand to be the same thing unless you can explain otherwise), and that has been someone addressed in another thread. So if you can, rephrase it a bit.

Is it not true that for every effect there is a cause? If so what made the universe, the galixy, the planets, the stars, elements? How can something so complex happen so randomly? How could it all just happen?

[Spirited Away]

We might worry, but that doesn't mean that we forget that God is still with us. But if foolish desisions are made than yes, you SHOULD worry.

Hmm, I wouldn't ever consider myself foolish unless it's logically proven so and not based on standards where faith and belief is concerned.

You forget that one thing christians most often say, God has a purpose for every thing, and a reason for every action. Though we may not know it yet, things may change and become better in the end. You can not weaken, but by body, from unfortunate events, but strengthen in spirit.

Non-believers would say, life is life, just do the best you can. We still co-exist, do we not?

If you want to bring experince in to the matter, my Grandmother has gone threw a divorce, breast cancer, two broken arms, two car accidents, gaulbladder removed, another sergery most recently, and her cat just died last month. All these things have happened, but I have never seen a happier person. Her faith couln't be stronger, she has never douted God. I belive God tests people, to test your faith, why? the same reason you get tested at school, to make sure you have it all down right.

Your Grandma, one of strong faith survived hardship, my Mother, one of no faith, survived hardship, so where does that leave us? From what I can gather, way of life relating to faith is of no import. Meaning, some people will say that we cannot live without God's protection, but believe or not, there are STILL survivors and fighters.".

I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sorry about what has happened.

Ah, I'm most definately not offended. I don't tell our stories to get pity, I tell it to make a point, and that is, religion or no, people can still live contently. Trust me when I say that what doesn't kill me will only make me stronger... and wiser.

Is it not true that for every effect there is a cause? If so what made the universe, the galixy, the planets, the stars, elements? How can something so complex happen so randomly? How could it all just happen?

That would be a good question for Atheists to answer... I'm not Atheist.

[ppl_love_me]

Hmm, I wouldn't ever consider myself foolish unless it's logically proven so and not based on standards where faith and belief is concerned.

I don't think you got what I meant. I meant like if you take drugs of choose to do things you know you can hurt yourself or others.

Your Grandma, one of strong faith survived hardship, my Mother, one of no faith, survived hardship, so where does that leave us? From what I can gather, way of life relating to faith is of no import. Meaning, some people will say that we cannot live without God's protection, but believe or not, there are STILL survivors and fighters.".

Yes, but God is there for all. not just belivers, but everyone.

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Also remember the scripture, when Jesus comes back to the disiples, then they go to tell another who says "I will only belive if I can put my finger in to his palm and my hand in his side." Jesus comes back before the whole group and tells the douting disiple to place his hand in his side. He said not to dout. As comes to the quote "seeing is not beliving"

[Spirited Away]

I don't think you got what I meant. I meant like if you take drugs of choose to do things you know you can hurt yourself or others.

But I don't take drugs, and was never remotely interested in unethical activities... I don't think I am capable of physically hurting myself to the point of death, intentionally or no. As for hurting other people, I wouldn't do anything intentionally unless the person bears ill will against me or people I care about first... Because I don't do those things, I don't see your point.

Yes, but God is there for all. not just belivers, but everyone.

Then where is He? All I felt in hard times was the love to live with my family... which is a greedy thought, but an innocent none the less. Seriously? Where is He when a young girl has to stick a hanger in herself to get rid of her own baby because she thinks there isn't any other way? Where is He when there are children in the world who are just wear the skin and bones on their body? Where was He when unjust killings and wars were raging and in His name?

If God is there for those people, then I would totally bow down to such as He, and be a faithful, and loving servant. I do not give love easily, but when I do, I love unconditionally. However as far as I can tell, there are still innocent people suffering from something that is out of their hands. I cannot love someone who allows that kind of thing to happen when He can easily stop it.

Also remember the scripture, when Jesus comes back to the disiples, then they go to tell another who says "I will only belive if I can put my finger in to his palm and my hand in his side." Jesus comes back before the whole group and tells the douting disiple to place his hand in his side. He said not to dout. As comes to the quote "seeing is not beliving"

Seeing is not believing, but logical evidence shouldn't be THAT hard to give when you're an all powerful being, is it?

[ppl_love_me]

Yes, but remember, he can't go ageinst his own promises. He will never wipe the world out (hence the rainbow) He also gave us free will. May poor people have the chance to get a better life, like the shelters, but they won't do it. As for people like that he sends US! Disiples, to help. If he is all knowing, don't you think he knows what he is doing when he gave us free will? WE are the ones who help one another get threw life so that we may life forever in heaven with God.

Killings and wars are out of his hands, he would be breaking his promise. Can't you love some one who keeps all their promises? And send good hearted people to help you threw life? You want Salvation, then look for it. Thats what I've been taught.

[Spirited Away]

Yes, but remember, he can't go ageinst his own promises. He will never wipe the world out (hence the rainbow)

< lost.

He also gave us free will.

He gave me free will, so I use free will (which is the choice to disbelieve), and He punishes me for using free will. Would He rather I be a mindless slave and listen to what Christians dictate as "truth"?

May poor people have the chance to get a better life, like the shelters, but they won't do it.

That pissed me off, a lot.

Have you ever heard of something called "the boat people"? Do you know why they are named as such? Because they literally traversed the seas IN HOPE to be in a better place than they were in. But you know what? There were many boat people that never made it back to land...

In many cases their children died so they lost the will to live. They lacked food and water and HAD TO EAT HUMAN FLESH and DRINK HUMAN BLOOD to live. Bet your sheltered life didn't expose you to those kinds of horrors, but I'm about to tell you all about it so don't worry... Young women had to disguise as males for fear of being raped by pirates. What? Are you surprise to hear that pirates still exist in this mordern era? Don't be. Roughly 2 to 3 decades ago, they still ruled some seas (and they still roam today), including the ones that the boat people sailed in. I had personally talked to several survivors about their stories and learned of the ones that didn't make it. I knew and talked at least one LIVING ex-privateer.

You said that "God send them to America", I had to laugh at that because you mention only the happy-go-lucky part of the story. You happened to skip the bad parts, which isn't surprising because Sunday school wouldn't teach you, but it did bother me that people who read it will only think of how caring God is, when in fact, it is far from the case.

He sent some to America and sent others to the depth of the cold sea where they died a lone death away from their families only when they had hopes to live with the free; He sent young women, flat on their backs bleeding and crying silent tears, while ten plus pirates take their turns to rape them, brutalize their bodies; He seperated babies from their mothers and fathers; He made man turn against man for dead human flesh and blood in order to survive.

Do you want to hear more? I have other stories aside from those of the boat people. I've read quite a bit into history, though I don't think you have to look far for those not-so-happy-endings.

Don't tell ME that God sent people to America... I'm the LAST person you will want to talk about God's good graces.

As for people like that he sends US! Disiples, to help. If he is all knowing, don't you think he knows what he is doing when he gave us free will? WE are the ones who help one another get threw life so that we may life forever in heaven with God.

Help one another? Hahaha, I would like to see you help me when you and your own children are famished. I would like to see these disciples to give their worldly wealth to help others.

Killings and wars are out of his hands, he would be breaking his promise. Can't you love some one who keeps all their promises? And send good hearted people to help you threw life? You want Salvation, then look for it. Thats what I've been taught.

Name some good people He sent, and what they have done for society in the name of God and I will name you some good people who have done good for society for the betterment of mankind without caring if their names will be engraved in some history books.

There is a difference between these people, you see. One obvious one is that disciples do what they do because God wills it/asks them to, while the other group just do whatever they feel is the right thing to do. Tell me, which group is better: the one that do good things ONLY because God asks that they do it, or the group that do good things just because they feel like it's the right thing to do?

It makes me wonder if I have to explain the meaning of free will one more time. Explain to me what you understand free will to be, then we'll talk again. Oh, and instead of sitting in Sunday School, skip it for one day and talk to survivors and people who literally went to Hell and back; listen to stories about the lives that were lost... And read from more than one perspective of how things really happened rather than just hear the children's book endings.

EDIT>>> I do apologize because I know that I have offended you, but all I know is that we should not forget those who did died and suffered injustices and think that they didn't want to be better off than where they were.

[sikdragon]

Nobody argued with what i said. Does that mean i am right and there is not rebuttle?

really guys.... i feel left out. lol

[Spirited Away]

Said about what?

I will say something against, just for the heck of it.


Tomorrow though... it's a school night!

[ppl_love_me]

< lost.

Just a statement

ok I'm still to pissed to post give me a day or 2...

[Spirited Away]

Just a statement

Oh, I didn't understand it.

ok I'm still to pissed to post give me a day or 2...

You're pissed? Okay, I guess I'll have to wait for the reason... but I'll have work over the weekend.

[sikdragon]

cloning isnt like trying to be God, it is still just like everything else, taking what is already there and modifying it. Only God can make something from nothing.

That is what i said.

[ppl_love_me]

I am pissed because you insulted me.

Help one another? Hahaha, I would like to see you help me when you and your own children are famished. I would like to see these disciples to give their worldly wealth to help others.

Thats is the worst thing I've ever heard, you need to open your eyes. I have seen what pain and suffering there is in the world. I went on a Mexico Mission trip to a place where children play on deadly chemical infested dirt barefoot. Moms are only 14, and babys play pins were cardboad boxes. They ate their pets, and barely have any clothes that fit. They have no desent hospital, the only one there over charges, they don't have anything but a box, and some have a one room house with no air. I helped them, and loved them. Yes, if you are perishing you can't always help, but there is always a way to help some one else without money. JUST CARE!! A smile, a careing thought, an open consern. thats helping. make someones day by careing. I dedicate MY life to help others, ask my friends, I hate being selfish. I hate those people.

I never said ALL people will help. Some people are dumb and selfish, but if you put aside all the bad things, you might find there is a lot of good in the world. I know a whole church of 2000 people who help others, and 300 of them are YOUTH! Including me.

In many cases their children died so they lost the will to live. They lacked food and water and HAD TO EAT HUMAN FLESH and DRINK HUMAN BLOOD to live. Bet your sheltered life didn't expose you to those kinds of horrors, but I'm about to tell you all about it so don't worry... Young women had to disguise as males for fear of being raped by pirates. What? Are you surprise to hear that pirates still exist in this mordern era? Don't be. Roughly 2 to 3 decades ago, they still ruled some seas (and they still roam today), including the ones that the boat people sailed in. I had personally talked to several survivors about their stories and learned of the ones that didn't make it. I knew and talked at least one LIVING ex-privateer.

Ya I know pirates still exsist. I know a lot of things. I very deeply study the houlocaust (srry 4 spelling) and things like that. We do learn about that in sunday school. in fact, we had the topic of why there is suffering in the world. wana know what the answer was?

We suffer so we will know the difference of good and bad. and to learn to help one another. If there was no suffering, then we would not care to go to God, its sad, but in times when we are happy we don't think of God, butwhen there are bad times then we look for help. In some cases that would be God. We would not need God if everything was perfact.

It makes me wonder if I have to explain the meaning of free will one more time. Explain to me what you understand free will to be, then we'll talk again. Oh, and instead of sitting in Sunday School, skip it for one day and talk to survivors and people who literally went to Hell and back; listen to stories about the lives that were lost... And read from more than one perspective of how things really happened rather than just hear the children's book endings.

I know many survivors. I studied veitnam War, and the world wars. I hate children book endings. I am a dedicated reader, and writer. I love Edgar's storys when the bad guy gets away with it. Have you ever read the bible? You have no Idea how much suffering people go threw. I don't know either. You want to know who truly knows suffering? God. He watches the deaths, the pain, and the rejection. He knows pain, not us, we can't. We are not like him, watching the world go threw war, for all eternity.

[Spirited Away]

I am pissed because you insulted me.

Insults usually reciprocate themselves, don't you think?

Thats is the worst thing I've ever heard, you need to open your eyes. I have seen what pain and suffering there is in the world. I went on a Mexico Mission trip to a place where children play on deadly chemical infested dirt barefoot. Moms are only 14, and babys play pins were cardboad boxes. They ate their pets, and barely have any clothes that fit. They have no desent hospital, the only one there over charges, they don't have anything but a box, and some have a one room house with no air. I helped them, and loved them. Yes, if you are perishing you can't always help, but there is always a way to help some one else without money. JUST CARE!! A smile, a careing thought, an open consern. thats helping. make someones day by careing. I dedicate MY life to help others, ask my friends, I hate being selfish. I hate those people.

Don't make me laugh. Me? Open my eyes? You had money to go on a vacation to be able to know poverty. Child, I was born into poverty. Don't tell me that I need to open my eyes to it, because I LIVED it but I also used my strength to rise out of it. Try giving a homeless man a hug and see his response. Haha sure, he'll give you a smile, but then he'll think that you'll give him something more substantial. Don't make me laugh. Give a child a teacher to teach them, book to read, money for food, clean water.. then we're talking progress.

It's like millions of people sitting on their bootays watching TV saying "of course I care". HAHAHHAHAHAHHA. You care, but what do you DO? NOTHING. And there's the rub.

Notice that I also said that if you and your family were needy, you wouldn't give a second thought about my family's hunger because you'll be too busy with find your own way to survive.

Do you know what it's like to live in a leaking barn house where the pigs and the chickens live? For one thing, it was a home. For another, it was the only thing avaible to a single Mother and two children waiting for their dead beat Dad.

Me, open my eyes. Child, you DO NOT KNOW what the heck you're talking about.

I never said ALL people will help. Some people are dumb and selfish, but if you put aside all the bad things, you might find there is a lot of good in the world. I know a whole church of 2000 people who help others, and 300 of them are YOUTH! Including me.

Being a humanist, I can CONFIDENTLY say that I have MORE faith in the human heart than YOU do. After all, you believe that God is what drives people to do good, but I believe that compassion and companionship makes people do moral things.

You had to go to Church to help people, I just help people in my own time. It may be insignificant (volunteer coaching, donating toys and clothes, Thankgiving/Christmas/New Year dinners)... but I don't need my Church or some Book to tell me to do good, I just do it.

No, I'm not bragging, but since you brought up the fact that you do things with your Church, I just want you to know that we non-believers are good in our own ways.

Churches help people, but NOT all people as you cannot reach every person. We non-believers happen to pick up the ones that haven't been helped by Churches and we do so without any promises of an afterlife nor a blissful eternity. We just do it.

Ya I know pirates still exsist. I know a lot of things. I very deeply study the houlocaust (srry 4 spelling) and things like that. We do learn about that in sunday school. in fact, we had the topic of why there is suffering in the world. wana know what the answer was?

We suffer so we will know the difference of good and bad. and to learn to help one another. If there was no suffering, then we would not care to go to God, its sad, but in times when we are happy we don't think of God, butwhen there are bad times then we look for help. In some cases that would be God. We would not need God if everything was perfact.

HAHHAAHA, DUH. You had to GO TO SCHOOL to know that suffering is inevitable? Baby, all you have to do is just look within your own society/community/family and you'll see imperfections: greed, anger, envy...etc. These imperfections are what causes suffering.

It is HUMAN to be imperfect, God understands this. Trust me. If He is all knowing, He WILL KNOW that we're an imperfect species.

The point of my telling you about pirates was that YOU SAID God sends people to America. You forgot to say that God also send people to horrid unknowns where they suffer just as Jesus had.

I know many survivors. I studied veitnam War, and the world wars. I hate children book endings. I am a dedicated reader, and writer. I love Edgar's storys when the bad guy gets away with it. Have you ever read the bible? You have no Idea how much suffering people go threw. I don't know either. You want to know who truly knows suffering? God. He watches the deaths, the pain, and the rejection. He knows pain, not us, we can't. We are not like him, watching the world go threw war, for all eternity.

Uh, just FYI, one of my only 4 girl cousins (out of more than 50) is a nun. So, do you still think I haven't read the Bible (if not some parts of it)?

If He knows pain, and He is omnipotent... then why not stop it?