Holocaust Options

[Gypsy Eyes]

There are many many people who think that the holocaust was a hoax and there are also people who think that the americans and the other allies did not help soon enough. what is your opinion on this?

[Gypsy Eyes]

My grandfather was in a concentration camp. He survived and wrote a journal about his experiences. I've also read a lot of books about the Holocaust, because something about it just fascinates me.

How could anyone think something as terrible as that was a hoax? I never heard that theory before. But I definately know it's not true. The Holocaust was real, and it was one of the most horrible events in the history of the world.

-Sarah

i think the same thing, my grandfathers family was in concentration camps as well but many people that i know, including my 8th grade history teacher believed it was just a publicity hoax

[capsule]

my family never had to go through that tragedy, but i definitely believe it happened since I did a ton of research on it for 8th, 9th, and 10th grade.

[jo3]

who would be cruel enough to make something up like that? i think it's been proven that millions died.

[xBitterxSweetx]

a hoax? is that a joke? the holocaust killed millions of people, its the most real thing out there.

to tell you the truth, i just learn about the holocasut [in 8th grade] and i felt so ignorant not to know about this till 8th grade. i seriously think they should like teach it to kids in 6th grade.

[islandkiss]

why would anyone want to make up something so horrid and serious?

that was a horrible past.. we should learn from that and make a better future.

[rnrn897]

a hoax? who the heck thinks that..
and yea the us and allies dint react soon enough, but they didnt know about it and reacted as soon as possible.. :T

[ComradeRed]

Actually a lot of groups think it's a hoax.

It definitely wasn't a hoax, but as brutal as this may sound -- it was none of our business. If Hitler didn't declare war on us (he did on December 11th, four days after Pearl Harbor -- up until then we were only at war with Japan, not Germany), I would have advocated isolationism back then -- WWII gave FDR many excuses to continue to shore up his power... the fact of the matter is, 5 million people died as a result of American intervention anyway, so even if the Holocaust killed all the remaining Jews in Europe (4.5 million), still more lives would have been saved by America remaining neutral.

Furthermore, Stalin was ALREADY WINNING on the Eastern front by the end of 1941. He was building three and a half tanks for every tank Hitler built. By remaining neutral, we would have had a very powerful Germany as a counterweight to Soviet Russia, and thus the Cold War would have been a fight between Hitler and Stalin -- no Arms Race, no MI Complex, no Korea, and no Vietnam -- millions of lives saved.

And we would also have saved our Constitution from the ravages of war -- in World War II, we put almost a third as many people into Concentration Camps as Hitler did.

[Spirited Away]

Actually a lot of groups think it's a hoax.

It definitely wasn't a hoax, but as brutal as this may sound -- it was none of our business. If Hitler didn't declare war on us (he did on December 11th, four days after Pearl Harbor -- up until then we were only at war with Japan, not Germany), I would have advocated isolationism back then -- WWII gave FDR many excuses to continue to shore up his power... the fact of the matter is, 5 million people died as a result of American intervention anyway, so even if the Holocaust killed all the remaining Jews in Europe (4.5 million), still more lives would have been saved by America remaining neutral.

Furthermore, Stalin was ALREADY WINNING on the Eastern front by the end of 1941. He was building three and a half tanks for every tank Hitler built. By remaining neutral, we would have had a very powerful Germany as a counterweight to Soviet Russia, and thus the Cold War would have been a fight between Hitler and Stalin -- no Arms Race, no MI Complex, no Korea, and no Vietnam -- millions of lives saved.

And we would also have saved our Constitution from the ravages of war -- in World War II, we put almost a third as many people into Concentration Camps as Hitler did.

What do you think would have happened if America kept on with isolationism, aside from the 5 millions lives that would not have been lost due to American intervention? As in, what kind of present/picture can you envision for Europe/America/the world?

[ComradeRed]

Hmm...

I think the world would be much like it is now, only with economic power more concentrated in the Far East than in Europe.

Think about it: The Soviet Union collapsed from within. Why? Not because of military might -- because its government became too oppressive and at the same time the leaders became too weak.

Nazi Germany and the USSR would have balanced each other out. Eventually they would have to arrive at some sort of peace, at which time the Cold War would begin -- only between the Nazis and Soviets. Eventually, both nations would have collapsed for that reason -- dictatorships never end well. The first dictator is always the strongest, but after that they become weaker and weaker.

Hitler would have been replaced by Goering, who quite frankly was an incomptetent fool. Goering eventually would have led to democratic resistance uprisings in France and Italy (in August '43, Southern Italy declared itself independent of the rest of Italy and declared war on Mussolini -- this is a month before the Allies landed in Italy).

I could see the collapse of Nazi Germany as early as 1980.

It is harder to coordinate a revolution in Russia, so the USSR would probably have lasted until as early as 1985 and as late as 2000. Remember that Gorbachev was a very open minded but weak leader, who basically saw that the USSR could not last and broke it up into the CIS. Under these situations, Russia would be basically the same today as it would be in the alternate history.

In fact, the only area that would be significantly different under my alternate history would be Western Europe (France/Germany/Italy), which would likely be economically much weaker, but socially still similar, although Germany might be slightly more repressive than it is today. But still, it wouldn't be our fight.

[Devastation]

holocaust, no it wasnt a hoax, for many reasons at that. For one, it was an actual even taking place back in the early towards the mid 1900's (quote me if im wrong)
as well as the concentration camps taking place as well as the reformation and acquistion the nazi's were doing towards the jews. Thus, putting them into camps. Holocaust was in fact not a hoax, a horrific and brutal period in time for the jews at that.

[iwalkbackwards]

My whole family escaped from Germany right before the holocaust...but yes, a lot of people believe it was a hoax. Other people believe that it was real, but not as many people died as they say did. I believe that they did exagerate (sp?) a little..

[racoons > you]

o fcourse it wasnt a hoax thats ludicrous.

nad the only option the allies had as far as intervention goes would have been to bomb the concentration camps, which is a complex moral dilemna, as the full horrors of the holocaust didnt emerge until after the war, meaning that they would have had no way of knowing exactly the fate of those withn the camps.

[xTINAA]

^Agreed. It's ludicrous to think that the Halocaust is a hoax. People who say that need to learn more about it and get their facts straight and talk to those who have been through the Halocaust. I can't reply about the 2nd half of the question because I don't have nearly enough information to make a decision or not.

[Teesa]

I agree with james..I cannot even begin to comprehend how anyone can think that the holocaust was a hoax. I think that they don't want to believe that something so horrible could happen and they're scared to admit to it or something.

[sammi rules you]

oh yea, the holocaust is so not true. cause my great-grandmother is just hiding out, she isn't really dead..

[yukichan]

My grandfather was in a concentration camp. He survived and wrote a journal about his experiences. I've also read a lot of books about the Holocaust, because something about it just fascinates me.

How could anyone think something as terrible as that was a hoax? I never heard that theory before. But I definately know it's not true. The Holocaust was real, and it was one of the most horrible events in the history of the world.

-Sarah

i agree...how can ppl think its a hoax?many ppl have suffered b/c of it...ive read a lot of books on the holocaust, and its definately not a hoax...its a really tragic event that occured in history..

[sadolakced acid]

some people refuse to believe something that horrible could have happened.

or they think it's a political poly

or they're on crack.

[racoons > you]

^^

lol. of course, crack doesn't really exist... its just a hoax so people can act all silly. *eyeroll*

[Rachel]

I believe that they did exagerate (sp?) a little..

i don't believe that at all. there were many undocumented deaths, people did not only get killed in concentration camps.

and to those people who believe it was a hoax, i just tell them to talk to my Opa and Oma who survived the camps and ask where both of their families disappeared to....

[*xcaitlinx*]

how can the HOLOCAUST be a publicity hoax? To me, that doesn't make any sense at all. It was completely real---You have journals and survivors that give you proof, along with documents and other sources of information. Whoever thought that theory up is completely oblivious...it makes me laugh.

[heyyfrankie]

i think that the holocaust was real and i think that the allies helped as soon as they could. i mean, there was a war going on! the people should just be happy that the allies helped.

[sammi rules you]

Other people believe that it was real, but not as many people died as they say did.  I believe that they did exagerate (sp?) a little..

what? no, that many people really did die. maybe not just in concentration camps; people were just being shot on the street for not cooperating. people wouldn't say that many people died if they didn't.

[Aesirus]

Germany was having trouble
What a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore
Its former glory
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me

And now it's...
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Rhineland's a fine land once more!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Watch out, Europe
We're going on tour!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany...

Look, it's springtime

Winter for Poland and France

Springtime for Hitler and Germany!

Springtime! Springtime!
Springtime! Springtime!
Springtime! Springtime!
Springtime! Springtime!

Come on, Germans
Go into your dance!

I was born in Dusseldorf und that is why they call me Rolf.

Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party!

The Fuhrer is coming, the Fuhrer is coming, the Fuhrer is coming!

Heil Hitler!

Heil Hitler!

Heil Hitler!
Springtime for Hitler and Germany

Heil Hitler!

Heil myself
Heil to me
I'm the kraut
Who's out to change our history
Heil myself
Raise your hand
There's no greater
Dictator in the land!
Everything I do, I do for you!

Yes, you do!

If you're looking for a war, here's World War Two!
Heil myself
Raise your beer

Jawohl!

Ev'ry hotsy-totsy Nazi stand and cheer

Hooray!
Ev'ry hotsy-totsy Nazi...

Heil myself!

Ev'ry hotsy-totsy Nazi...

Heil myself!

Ev'ry hotsy-totsy Nazi...

...stand and cheer!

The Fuhrer is causing a furor!
He's got those Russians on the run
You gotta love that wacky hun!
The Fuhrer is causing a furor
They can't say "no" to his demands
They're freaking out in foreign lands
He's got the whole world in his hands
The Fuhrer is causing a furor!

I was just a paper hanger
No one more obscurer
Got a phone call from the Reichstag
Told me I was Fuhrer
Germany was blue
What, oh, what to do?
Hitched up my pants
And conquered France
Now Deutschland's smiling through!
But it wasn't always so easy...
It was 1932. Hindenburg was working the Big Room and I...
I was playing the lounge. And then I got my big break.
Somebody burned down the Reichstag. And, would you believe it?
They made me Chancellor. Chancellor!
It ain't no myst'ry
If it's politics or hist'ry
The thing you gotta know is
Ev'rything is show biz
Heil myself
Watch my show
I'm the German Ethel Merman
Dontcha know
We are crossing borders
The new world order is here
Make a great big smile
Ev'ryone sieg heil to me
Wonderful me!
And now it's...

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Goose-step's the new step today

Springtime!
Goose-steps!

Bombs falling from the skies again

Deutschland is on the rise again

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
U-boats are sailing once more
Springtime for Hitler and Germany

Means that...

Soon we'll be going...

We've got to be going...

You know we'll be going....

You bet we'll be going...

You know we'll be going to war!!

[sammi rules you]

minda, you're the biggest dork i've ever known.

[Aesirus]

But it's Springtime for Hitler!

[Rachel]

^ilovethatmovie...and not using the spacebar =)

[*chaneun*]

the holocaust is bad.

:(

[iwalkbackwards]

I'm saying the people in the concentration camps. I'm not saying the number of jewish people killed total. You have to kind of think here, your believing the numbers that the nazi's and Germany documented.

[racoons > you]

the holocaust is bad.

:(

yes dear. almost as bad as spamming in the debate forum

[Rachel]

I'm saying the people in the concentration camps.  I'm not saying the number of jewish people killed total.  You have to kind of think here, your believing the numbers that the nazi's and Germany documented.

it wasn't just jewish people killed in the concentration camps. and also, i sure as hell believe that the nazis killed 6 million people in the camps.

[iwalkbackwards]

it wasn't just jewish people killed in the concentration camps. and also, i sure as hell believe that the nazis killed 6 million people in the camps.

I don't think they killed that many people. It just doesn't seen realistic. I know that jewish people weren't the only ones killed in the concentration camps...

[Rachel]

I don't think they killed that many people.  It just doesn't seen realistic.  I know that jewish people weren't the only ones killed in the concentration camps...

well thats what makes the holocaust so horrible and why some people refuse to believe it happened. 6 million innocent people were murdered for their beliefs or for standing up and helping others.

[Tung]

stupid ignorant people who thinks its a hoax. how is a it hoax when you have straight evidence of the remains of the camps. and the survivors.

[iwalkbackwards]

well thats what makes the holocaust so horrible and why some people refuse to believe it happened. 6 million innocent people were murdered for their beliefs or for standing up and helping others.

I believe that it happened...but I believe people take it to extremes sometimes...From some people I hear 3 million were killed, and from other sources, I hear 6 million. That's why I believe its sometimes exagerrated (sp?).

[ohh_so_elektrikk...]

There are many many people who think that the holocaust was a hoax and there are also people who think that the americans and the other allies did not help soon enough. what is your opinion on this?

it definately wasnt a hoax.. i dont understand why people would think that, i mean, people friggin died... that doesnt make it a hoax

[sammi rules you]

yes dear. almost as bad as spamming in the debate forum

i still believe 6 million people + were killed, but whatever. our country has 5 billion; compared to that, 6 million doesn't seem so stretched.

[mirage]

well, genocide/holocaust is still happening in today's world, believe it or not. Over 1000 people are killed every week in places like Darfur, Sudan due to the religious beliefs and racial color by the Janjaweed gang (Arab militia). The US government and other world power should really stop talking and start taking action in these third-world power countries. If not, another case like the Rwanda genocide will repeat itself.

[Rachel]

^while that is true, the debate is not about genocide...it is about the holocaust...

[Spirited Away]

minda, you're the biggest dork i've ever known.

I knew he was familiar... too familiar.

[Ington]

I don't think they killed that many people.  It just doesn't seen realistic.  I know that jewish people weren't the only ones killed in the concentration camps...

Listen, deary, they were planning on wiping out the entire Jewish nation. Also, my grandparents' entire families were wiped out from the Holocaust.

Also, people saw others get shipped to concentration camps. They cleared out entire countries of Jewish people. There were millions of witnesses.

Get your facts straight before you post dear.

[sammi rules you]

I knew he was familiar... too familiar.

hehe, yea, he told me that was him, but i don't think i was supposed to let it out. =X

[Aesirus]

it wasn't just jewish people killed in the concentration camps. and also, i sure as hell believe that the nazis killed 6 million people in the camps.

No, they killed about 3.5 million in the camps. The other 2.5 million were shot by the SS and various Einsatzgruppen units in the field, or killed by mobile death machines like gas vans.

[Spirited Away]

hehe, yea, he told me that was him, but i don't think i was supposed to let it out. =X

Eh, I surmised as much when we argued about property... land. But then I would be stupid not to know after that song on this thread.

[*xcaitlinx*]

i still believe 6 million people + were killed, but whatever. our country has 5 billion; compared to that, 6 million doesn't seem so stretched.

yeah...and yet when 9/11 happened, almost 3,000 people died [compared to our billions]...and we go destroy Iraqi's whole freakin population.

sorry, off topic, but had to say it.

[b0st0ngrl]

I don't see why people think this is a hoax. Mel Gibson's father said that one time and I'm thinking, "Oh yah, then where did 6 million people go?"

[Loff]

This sounds like a one sided arguement, with mild debate.

Our country has around 290 million residents (plus or minus 5 million), while the world has around 6.2 billion people.

I actually want to hear from those who believe the holocaust was a hoax. This is the debate area, and I think a different perspective would be interesting.

[sadolakced acid]

ok, for the sake of debate i will argue that it did not happen.

((( ATTENTION EVERYONE. DON'T GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT. HAVE FUN. THIS IS A DEBATE, I'M JUST TRYING TO PROVIDE AN OPPOSITION ARGUEMENT NOW)))

ok: if 6 million people were killed, would not the neighbors notice? Would not a country notice that certain groups were dissapearing?

not all in germany were nazi. some just stood by. others 'helped those perscuted'

however: why did the allies only learn about the 'concentration camps' when they 'found them'?

would not the dissapearance of 6 million people tip off at least ONE citizen who would inform the allies?

[Spirited Away]

((( ATTENTION EVERYONE.  DON'T GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT.  HAVE FUN.  THIS IS A DEBATE, I'M JUST TRYING TO PROVIDE AN OPPOSITION ARGUEMENT NOW)))

If I were you, dear, I'd bold that disclaimer, enlarge it to the max, and color it red. We all know how aptly people can skip over all that and think the worst of you.

Just to make sure, place that in your signature, too.

[Loff]

^ and paste it every other line. Then add the words 'joking' at the end of each sentence.

why bother? its a debate thread!

[Spirited Away]

^ you haven't seen how far a person will hold on to his/her sentimentally driven aggression. I only said it as a joke, by the way, alluding to how people never read the full thread before using the reply buttons. I will refrain from joking ever again.

Someone bashed Mr. Acid before thinking that he supported Hitler.... so hey... it happens.

[Loff]

my humor is more obscure :)

[racoons > you]

however: why did the allies only learn about the 'concentration camps' when they 'found them'?

they didnt... its documented that they allies had a pretty clear idea of what was going on in poland and thwe like, but they were unsure of how to handle the situation

[sadolakced acid]

they didnt... its documented that they allies had a pretty clear idea of what was going on in poland and thwe like, but they were unsure of how to handle the situation

then why, may i ask, were american soldiers suprised to find the camps? why did not the bombers bomb the train tracks? the gas chambers? all of these would have been logical, had the allies actually known about it.

the whole concentration camp system could have been crippled if the train tracks were bombed. but why not bomb them? if you know what they are for, why not bomb them?

((( ATTENTION EVERYONE. DON'T GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT. HAVE FUN. THIS IS A DEBATE, I'M JUST TRYING TO PROVIDE AN OPPOSITION ARGUEMENT NOW)))

fae, if someone does think the worst of me, i'm sure they'll come through... did you catch the part in the abortion thread where someone thought i was anti-women's rights? i'll admit, it was my fault for not wording it well, but they understood after i explained it...

[racoons > you]

im sure individua lamerican troops were surprised to find the gas chambers, however, the governement as a whole was aware

however, the scale of what was going on was not fully understood, therefore priority was directed towards other targets as opposed to the train tracks, and i presume the concentration camps weren't bombed themselves b/c they could not be pinpointed within the camps, and gnerals were unwilling to risk hitting, say a barrack.

will do proper research tonite or tomoz when i haev more time

[mirage]

^while that is true, the debate is not about genocide...it is about the holocaust...

The Holocaust was a genocide.

[sammi rules you]

they knew they were rounding them up and taking them somewhere, they just weren't sure where the concentration camps were, and on how grandeur of a scale it was happening.

if you've read anne frank's diary, you know people were aware people were being captured and taken somewhere, but they weren't sure where since no one had come back to tell them. they just knew it was bad.

[kisstharingz]

The Holocaust was a genocide.

exactly what I was going to say. I think that the holocaust was real and those numbers are not extreme. Look at all the countries the Nazis went to and picked out Jews and other "non-Aryan" people. They'd reached nearly the entire continent of Europe by the time they were stopped. I think the reaction was a little delayed. Everyone should have acted a lot faster, but hey, who knows if anyone actually knew. That would be hard to believe at the time. Can you imagine someone telling you something like that if it'd never happened before? Would you believe it?

[Loff]

we didnt really know what was going over there. The German citizens knew something was up, but everyone didn't know what was happening exactly (although alot of them chose not to investigate)

[Spirited Away]

fae, if someone does think the worst of me, i'm sure they'll come through...  did you catch the part in the abortion thread where someone thought i was anti-women's rights?  i'll admit, it was my fault for not wording it well, but they understood after i explained it...

I went back and read... and yes! that was kind of funny. you always do good though, however, you were exceptionally patient this time.

[innovation]

Germany was having trouble
What a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore
Its former glory
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me

....etcetc

now i believe that it's minda.

anyway, what proof do these people have to support the belief that the holocaust was a hoax? edit: i should probably the whole thread, shouldn't i.

[bookwurm]

i belive that the holocaust was real.
Actually, i'm doing an essay for SS right now, on how some people that don't belive it was true. For example, here's a person who doesn't believe it happened: http://litek.ws/k0nsl/detox/Carto-nine-reasons.html
There are some insteresting arguements, and you could almost say, well, all i know about the holocaust is what they've taught me at school, so for all i know, it could be fake. But then you remember that how in the world could it not be real? So many people died! And what about the survivors? Its not like some governments got together and payed a whole bunch of people to pretend it happened. Anyhoo, i would like some thoughts of other people and some more places i could go to find some people who didn't believe it happened for my essay.

[crayonzUpMyNose]

of course it happened