for Christians and atheists Options

[*the_overachiever*]

"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"I wouldn't say that."

[No answer]

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could in fact most of us would if we could. God doesn't."

[No answer] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is Jesus good? Hmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again young fella. Is God good?"

"Err. Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From?God...?"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?"

[No Answer] "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

[No answer] The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice, he asked, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?

[No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all the evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer] "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again no whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer] "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus. In fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer] "Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID. You haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"..yes.."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please."

The first Christian sits. Defeated. Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, yet another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. IS there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than 273 degrees below zero. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at..?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes.?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it is called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error..."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed..? How dare you..!"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain...ooh, explain...?The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability himself. He weaves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look...?
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. IS there such thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues, "IF there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "AS a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

The Christian replies, I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed the evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed...?
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"

The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind? The class breaks out into laughter. The Christian points toward his elderly, crumbling tutor. "IS there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind? No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits.

[onenonly101]

I liked that

[Spirited Away]

There were already two posts like such in the debate forum and there were also replies to them.

One of them points out that the student wasn't very smart in the first place because IT IS possible to see one's brain such as through surgery or scans (MRI or CT... etc).

And the student COMPLETELY contradicts himself.

"Have you ever observed the evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

By asking such, he suggests that you don't have to see something to know that it's there.

Well, you don't have to see evolution to know that its processing/working either.

Anyway, if you would like, continue this in debate.

[hybrid]

^^ It's just a story dude.

Anyway, I thought this proved both sides. Job well done.

[*the_overachiever*]

There were already two posts like such in the debate forum and there were also replies to them.

One of them points out that the student wasn't very smart in the first place because IT IS possible to see one's brain such as through surgery or scans (MRI or CT... etc). 

And the student COMPLETELY contradicts himself.


By asking such, he suggests that you don't have to see something to know that it's there.

Well, you don't have to see evolution to know that its processing/working either.

Anyway, if you would like, continue this in debate.

the mind and the brain are different.
and i know that you don`t have to see evolution to know.. wasn`t that the student`s point??

and i didn`t write this.. nope nope.

[Spirited Away]

^^ It's just a story dude. 

Anyway, I thought this proved both sides. Job well done. 

Girl, I'm a girl.

It depends on perspective whether or not this is "just a story".

But yes, I meant to balance out both sides instead of having just one side present their belief.

edit>>

the mind and the brain are different.

Ah, so the story evolved and improved itself. Explain to me how you perceive the difference between mind and brain.

and i know that you don`t have to see evolution to know.. wasn`t that the student`s point??

Sure, and my point was why believe in one, and not the other?

[hybrid]

Girl, I'm a girl.

It depends on perspective whether or not this is "just a story".

But yes, I meant to balance out both sides instead of having just one side present their belief.

Sorry, I call everyone dude.

[Spirited Away]

Sorry, I call everyone dude.

That's okay... I'm kind of used to it now...

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

Ah, so the story evolved and improved itself. Explain to me how you perceive the difference between mind and brain.

Your brain is the big squishy thing inbetween your ears. Your mind however is that little voice in your head that never shuts up. Your mind doesn't have mass, you can't feel your mind, and it can't be detected by a MRI. The MRI will show the brain, but it doesn't show your mind because your mind is something that exists only to you.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.

[Spirited Away]

Your brain is the big squishy thing inbetween your ears.  Your mind however is that little voice in your head that never shuts up.  Your mind doesn't have mass, you can't feel your mind, and it can't be detected by a MRI.  The MRI will show the brain, but it doesn't show your mind because your mind is something that exists only to you.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. 

where does the mind come from? within yourself?
Edit:::

Because according to dictionary.com when you look up the word "mind"

The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

where does the mind come from? within yourself?

Exactly! Your mind comes from you. It's not something that grows while you're in the womb, not like an organ. It's something that developes through experience. Am I even making sense? haha, probably not.

edit:
About that dictionary.com thing- your mind originates there, but that doesn't mean thatt they're the same. Your brain is something that can be detected, but you can't detect someone's mind no matter how many tests you do. (Which is a very good thing. If people know what was going on in my mind I might not have many friends)

[Spirited Away]

Exactly! Your mind comes from you. It's not something that grows while you're in the womb, not like an organ. It's something that developes through experience. Am I even making sense? haha, probably not.

edit:
About that dictionary.com thing- your mind originates there, but that doesn't mean thatt they're the same. Your brain is something that can be detected, but you can't detect someone's mind no matter how many tests you do. (Which is a very good thing. If people know what was going on in my mind I might not have many friends)

Sure you make sense , but I don't really agree with it.

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

[x hYpErRoSeY x]

Sure you make sense , but I don't really agree with it.

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

i also agree

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

Sure you make sense , but I don't really agree with it.

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

Good, I like making sense. It's something I don't do often.

If you had no brain your mind wouldn't exist, because without a brain you'd be dead. Your mind is composed of thoughts, and if your brain has shut down how can you think?

[*the_overachiever*]

Girl, I'm a girl.

It depends on perspective whether or not this is "just a story".

But yes, I meant to balance out both sides instead of having just one side present their belief.

edit>>
Ah, so the story evolved and improved itself. Explain to me how you perceive the difference between mind and brain.


Sure, and my point was why believe in one, and not the other?

because i know that human logic and science is fallible.
and God`s word is not.

question:
why believe in one, and not the other?

hmm.. this is turning into a debate. maybe they should move it.

[*the_overachiever*]

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

i agree too
but the brain is tangible (umm through those scans and stuff)
while the mind is not.

you guys should read
Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith
by Josh McDowell, Don Stewart

^ good book.

[*kryogenix*]

it was a good read.

[illmizzkim]

Well. I liked the story. I've read it a couple times before and I still like it. However I'm not going to go debating about this, since this isn't in the debate section.

Good topic the_overachiever

[Spirited Away]

Exactly.

So without a brain, a mind cannot exist. The brain is what forms the 'intangible' mind, however do we both agree that the brain is tangible?

The experiences that you learn is what you make of it. The brain processes all this and allows you to think, without the brain, such expriences are useless as is the mind.

Back to the story of the student, using the mind in the argument is problematic because the mind cannot exist without the brain.

because i know that human logic and science is fallible.
and God`s word is not.

In your opinion.

hmm.. this is turning into a debate. maybe they should move it. 

I didn't mean to turn it into a debate, but I don't like to see a one-sided argument.

i agree too
but the brain is tangible (umm through those scans and stuff)
while the mind is not.

The mind is originated in the brain, without the brain the mind is rendered useless, non-existent. So, the more imporant matter is the brain.

you guys should read
Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith
by Josh McDowell, Don Stewart

^ good book. 

You should go ahead and read "2000 Years of Disbelief : Famous People With the Courage to Doubt" by James A. Haught.

[*the_overachiever*]

Exactly.

So without a brain, a mind cannot exist. The brain is what forms the 'intangible' mind, however do we both agree that the brain is tangible?

The experiences that you learn is what you make of it. The brain processes all this and allows you to think, without the brain, such expriences are useless as is the mind.

Back to the story of the student, using the mind in the argument is problematic because the mind cannot exist without the brain.


In your opinion.


I didn't mean to turn it into a debate, but I don't like to see a one-sided argument.


The mind is originated in the brain, without the brain the mind render is useless, non-existent. So, the more imporant matter is the brain.



You should go ahead and read "2000 Years of Disbelief : Famous People With the Courage to Doubt" by James A. Haught.

but without the mind, what use is the brain? it just like.. sits there.

and you`re an atheist, right?

courage to doubt??
how about courage to believe?

[Spirited Away]

but without the mind, what use is the brain? it just like.. sits there.

With the brain, it is said that you exist. With the mind, you know you're human.

and you`re an atheist, right?

No.

courage to doubt??
how about courage to believe?

When we doubt, we risk Hell. I think that's braver than to believe and go to Heaven.

[Mini]

hurmm that was very interesting. i love it. have faith, have faith.

[queen]

haha good job. excellent read ;x

[*the_overachiever*]

nono you guys. i didn`t write it.

and when you believe, you make a deep commitment,
which i think takes courage.

[Mini]

nono you guys. i didn`t write it.

yeah i know that...just meant that i loved the thread.

[Spirited Away]

nono you guys. i didn`t write it.

I'm sure they're aware of it... I think they meant "good job" for bringing up the topic.

[*the_overachiever*]

I'm sure they're aware of it... I think they meant "good job" for bringing up the topic.

oOo okay.

[waccoon]

I'm sure they're aware of it... I think they meant "good job" for bringing up the topic.

Yes, this is all over the internet and cB.

[*the_overachiever*]

Yes, this is all over the internet and cB.

well, i`ve been a member for two days.
so i wouldn`t know.

[Spirited Away]

well, i`ve been a member for two days.
so i wouldn`t know.

Don't worry about it.

But do you have anything more to add to the topic or questions for the responses?

[*the_overachiever*]

none for now.
everybody (including me) is too stubborn to change their views.

but it would be interesting to have a chat room about this, no?

[Mini]

very...I LOVE DEBATES..anyways, i really think people should open their minds up, who is to say what is true and what is false on this Earth. it takes faith.

[Spirited Away]

none for now.
everybody (including me) is too stubborn to change their views.

Haha, so true. If you would look through the debate forum, there was a topic entitled "god" that lasted for more than 50 pages.

but it would be interesting to have a chat room about this, no?

I don't think so, there shouldn't be anything chatting can do to that simple posts cannot. Erm, but I guess you can convince me of otherwise.

Edit>>>

it takes faith.

Faith, and respect for other faiths.

[Mini]

Faith, and respect for other faiths.

yep totally agree.

[*tweeak*]

that was good! i dont have time to read all the comments right now, will edit later

[princess2113]

LOL yeah that was gud...

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus. In fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

I feel Him everyday....when ppl hug u...it is like Jesus hugging u
when i eat the food God has provided, i taste Jesus...ALSO the Sacrement..the Body and Blood I eat and drink on Sundays and whenever we have Communion...I taste Jesus...so i think that IS sensory perception...but...we dunt need that to know He's real...yeah that 1st guy should have come to cb first

[sadolakced acid]

the most popular answer anytime i ask, can you see god?

people reply "can you see the wind"

no, but you can feel the wind. you and feel it on your skin.



anyways, evil is not the abscence of good. for those who have never felt pure evil, it is easy for them to say it is. but it's not. no, evil is something far greater in numbers. good is greater in strength.

do i belive? i don't know. i'm buddhist.

so, i ask you this:

1. if god is perfect, and god created everything, then why is what he created flawed?

2. the student (2nd one) failed to adress why god refuses to help people hurt, wounded, exc.

3. if the professer had asked the student, how many times has science saved your life? probably lots of times. maybe you needed a C section to be born. maybe you broke your bone once. maybe you had a bad infection that pennicilin cured.
science has saved million.
how many does god save?

4. you say god is just, exc. wel, i have asked people. and according to the bible, a completely good person who's only fault is they don't belive in god, they would burn for eternity, whereas the completely evil mass murderer repents 5 seconds before his death and gets baptise, he goes to heaven?
what kind of twisted god is this?

haha. i think i'll take a christianity class in college, just for the heck of it.
argue with the professor every day. ha.

[JlIaTMK]

i didnt like the story sorry.... but if the professors a preacher than so is the Christian child.... i dislike preachers.... but anyway im christian but i dont believe in the Christian theory what so ever.... and im not athiest

[princess2113]

the most popular answer anytime i ask, can you see god?

people reply "can you see the wind"

no, but you can feel the wind. you and feel it on your skin.



anyways, evil is not the abscence of good. for those who have never felt pure evil, it is easy for them to say it is. but it's not. no, evil is something far greater in numbers. good is greater in strength.

do i belive? i don't know. i'm buddhist.

so, i ask you this:

1. if god is perfect, and god created everything, then why is what he created flawed?

2. the student (2nd one) failed to adress why god refuses to help people hurt, wounded, exc.

3. if the professer had asked the student, how many times has science saved your life? probably lots of times. maybe you needed a C section to be born. maybe you broke your bone once. maybe you had a bad infection that pennicilin cured.
science has saved million.
how many does god save?

4. you say god is just, exc. wel, i have asked people. and according to the bible, a completely good person who's only fault is they don't belive in god, they would burn for eternity, whereas the completely evil mass murderer repents 5 seconds before his death and gets baptise, he goes to heaven?
what kind of twisted god is this?

haha. i think i'll take a christianity class in college, just for the heck of it.
argue with the professor every day. ha.

ok so i started to defend this and then realized this isnt the place, copy n paste this in the God topic n we can answer

[Mini]

the most popular answer anytime i ask, can you see god?

people reply "can you see the wind"

no, but you can feel the wind. you and feel it on your skin.



anyways, evil is not the abscence of good. for those who have never felt pure evil, it is easy for them to say it is. but it's not. no, evil is something far greater in numbers. good is greater in strength.

do i belive? i don't know. i'm buddhist.

so, i ask you this:

1. if god is perfect, and god created everything, then why is what he created flawed?

2. the student (2nd one) failed to adress why god refuses to help people hurt, wounded, exc.

3. if the professer had asked the student, how many times has science saved your life? probably lots of times. maybe you needed a C section to be born. maybe you broke your bone once. maybe you had a bad infection that pennicilin cured.
science has saved million.
how many does god save?

4. you say god is just, exc. wel, i have asked people. and according to the bible, a completely good person who's only fault is they don't belive in god, they would burn for eternity, whereas the completely evil mass murderer repents 5 seconds before his death and gets baptise, he goes to heaven?
what kind of twisted god is this?

haha. i think i'll take a christianity class in college, just for the heck of it.
argue with the professor every day. ha.

eh im buddhist too. im confused dont we believe in a universal being (God)? hurmmmmm im not sure im a hardcore buddhist but i believe in God and that Buddha is a messenger of God. im so confused.

[sadolakced acid]

i'm not hard core buddhist either

but i do know this

christianity says all other religions suck
and buddhism says that other religions are just different interperetations of the same one. that they're all correct, in a way.

also, i hate it when people start preaching to me, people who try to "spread god's word" to me.

"i have my own religion, thank you very much, i don't need yours" except i'm meaner about it, so it come s out more like this, "_expletive deleted_ christians. leave your _expletive deleted_ missionary stuff in the church. i like my religion. _expletive deleted_ get away from me. ...

haha. well. i'm also trouble by jesus freaks.

[JlIaTMK]

i'm not hard core buddhist either

but i do know this

christianity says all other religions suck
and buddhism says that other religions are just different interperetations of the same one. that they're all correct, in a way.

also, i hate it when people start preaching to me, people who try to "spread god's word" to me.

"i have my own religion, thank you very much, i don't need yours" except i'm meaner about it, so it come s out more like this, "_expletive deleted_ christians. leave your _expletive deleted_ missionary stuff in the church. i like my religion. _expletive deleted_ get away from me. ...

haha. well. i'm also trouble by jesus freaks.

haha thank u.... i agree with every word u said

[princess2113]

i'm not hard core buddhist either

but i do know this

christianity says all other religions suck
and buddhism says that other religions are just different interperetations of the same one. that they're all correct, in a way.

also, i hate it when people start preaching to me, people who try to "spread god's word" to me.

"i have my own religion, thank you very much, i don't need yours" except i'm meaner about it, so it come s out more like this, "_expletive deleted_ christians. leave your _expletive deleted_ missionary stuff in the church. i like my religion. _expletive deleted_ get away from me. ...

haha. well. i'm also trouble by jesus freaks.

if u dunt like the Christian theology, ok. but plz notice that u r making a judgement and i think u r making one b4 u even look past 1 layer of the theology, b/c if u had, ur reaction wuld be differant...also, that is bashing my religion. its offensive, so please keep ur offensive comments to urself and dont post them here.

[Spirited Away]

if u dunt like the Christian theology, ok. but plz notice that u r making a judgement and i think u r making one b4 u even look past 1 layer of the theology, b/c if u had, ur reaction wuld be differant...also, that is bashing my religion. its offensive, so please keep ur offensive comments to urself and dont post them here.

He isn't bashing your religion much, Princess, he's bashing the people who serve under the religion.

I would say that you were offending other faiths in the "god" topic when you said that there is only one God.

There are two sides to every story, we know about yours, let us hear others tell theirs.

[princess2113]

He isn't bashing your religion much, Princess, he's bashing the people who serve under the religion.

I would say that you were offending other faiths in the "god" topic when you said that there is only one God.

There are two sides to every story, we know about yours, let us hear others tell theirs.

He is, b/c when when we serve under our religion, we are representing the morals of our religion...so part of our religion

No, i was stating a fact, he is stating his opinion, yes i know u say "how do u know its a fact" my answer is u can wait n see if u want but ur not gonna be happy if u do..and ALSO it doesnt matter if i offended them, i stopped doing that n i asked him nicely not to bash my religion...AND this isnt the place for this to be going on just btw so they can tell their side of the story, w/o saying we suck so thank u very much

[Spirited Away]

He is, b/c when when we serve under our religion, we are representing the morals of our religion...so part of our religion

Do you speak for every Christian? I should hope not because I know Christians who are down right hypocrites and do the opposite of whatever morality their religion upholds. If you speak for all Christians, then Christianity is a very problematic religion.

Now, in the circumstance that you do not speak for everyone of your faith, he is only bashing Christians who claim to "represent" Christians' morals and then do bad things. If you're not part of that group, then his taunts shouldn't bother you.

No, i was stating a fact, he is stating his opinion, yes i know u say "how do u know its a fact" my answer is u can wait n see if u want but ur not gonna be happy if u do..and ALSO it doesnt matter if i offended them, i stopped doing that n i asked him nicely not to bash my religion...

Non-believers see the Bible as a book of fiction, therefore your "facts" are naught but untruths to non-believers. Call it whatever you want, but like I've said, right and wrong is based on perspective when we talk about religion. I've heard plenty of self-righteous Christians who say that I believe in the "wrong" things and that I would suffer for it. I usually respond with a "Thanks for the heads up, genius" and walk away, but I'll tell you now that I get offended by such remarks. Everyone bashes other people, I remember you and I were in the same situation a while back about religion.

AND this isnt the place for this to be going on just btw so they can tell their side of the story, w/o saying we suck so thank u very much

I don't understand that sentence. You mean that this isn't the place to be hearing two sides of the story? That strikes me as... odd... very odd.

[ryfitaDF]

ok first off tat prof. was a doooosh. he probably made that little christian boy cry.

the professor's mind does exist. they heard it because he speaks his mind, and i read it so i can see it.

as for bashing religions... theres nothing i hate more than people telling me i'm going to hell and i'm wrong. is that not bashing my religion? the morals of christianty are fine with me, but the bigotry is what gets me vexed. how many people have tried to convert me to judism? islam? buddhism? wicca? etc? no one. christians are almost imperialistic with their views and i disagree with it.

i admire uninspiredfae. she's christian but respects other faiths for what they are and how they benefit their followers. the way it ought to be, if you ask me.

anyways, evil is not the abscence of good. for those who have never felt pure evil, it is easy for them to say it is. but it's not. no, evil is something far greater in numbers. good is greater in strength.

tru dat. evil is powerful and very very real. to me, anyway.

just like jesus is real to whoever said they feel him in every hug (sorry i can'te remember your name). i don'e feel jesus at all anywhere. however, i do hear, feel and see evil in every dirty look, insult, punch, kick, anything out of spite.

i don't know if their's anything i forgot to address.

[princess2113]

I don't understand that sentence. You mean that this isn't the place to be hearing two sides of the story? That strikes me as... odd... very odd.

no but i never said that u suck b/c u didnt believe in God, therefor same goes for that guy he shuldnt say we suck b/c we DO believe in God...and yes, by saying Christianity sucks, he says Christians suck b/c we are a model of our faith

[sadolakced acid]

well, i'm only bashing those why try to convert people too much.

no other religion tries to make everyone in the world that religion this way.

i see what people say, that it's god's work and all. but i really do not like christianity's intolerance of other religions, and other things.

christianity, to me, is a very intolerant religion.

it is quite offending when christians(some) say my religion is sh*t. but they do. they say i will burn. they say that they are the only right ones.

wouldn't that bother everyone?

well, i take it that "that guy" isn't me, as i didn't say christianity sucks. at least, not out loud i don't think.
christianity only sucks when someone stars shoving a cross in my face and start trying to convert me.

[princess2113]

well, i'm only bashing those why try to convert people too much. 

no other religion tries to make everyone in the world that religion this way. 

i see what people say, that it's god's work and all.  but i really do not like christianity's intolerance of other religions, and other things. 

christianity, to me, is a very intolerant religion. 

it is quite offending when christians(some) say my religion is sh*t.  but they do.  they say i will burn.  they say that they are the only right ones. 

wouldn't that bother everyone? 

well, i take it that "that guy" isn't me, as i didn't say christianity sucks.  at least, not out loud i don't think. 
christianity only sucks when someone stars shoving a cross in my face and start trying to convert me.

u said ur Buddhist? im Christian n ive been to like 1000 Buddhist parties, religious "worship" things i dunno what u call it...etc...i dont have a prob. w/ other religions i just dont believe it so i think u are judging all Christians based on a few u know and THAT is offensive in itself

[sadolakced acid]

alright, then you shouldn't be too troubled. tolerant christians are fine. if you would read what you quote, you would see that i think christianity is a good religion, except for the 'covert everyone else' part and the 'all other religions are wrong' part ( refer to the ten commandments. i think it's 7 or something that says, warship only god. right?)

wow. 1000 buddhist parties. so that's like, what. one every 15 minutes?

[princess2113]

alright, then you shouldn't be too troubled. tolerant christians are fine. if you would read what you quote, you would see that i think christianity is a good religion, except for the 'covert everyone else' part and the 'all other religions are wrong' part ( refer to the ten commandments. i think it's 7 or something that says, warship only god. right?)

wow. 1000 buddhist parties. so that's like, what. one every 15 minutes?

its spelled worship, and yes it does, but do u not believe all religions worship the same God?...or pretty much all of them...and its 10..u want me to tell u them? were not supposed to try to convert ppl...thats God's job, we just tell u abt it so hopefully u open ur heart up a lil...and how is that 1 every 15 minutes i dunt get it? i go like 1 a week, or every other week...

[sadolakced acid]

one a week. 1000 weeks. 52 weeks in a year. we'll call it about 50 weeks a year. 1000/ 50 = 200 years.

i doubt you're that old.

and worship sounds too benign. warship sound more intimidating. like war ship. like, kill if you're on the wrong side of the guns. like, us vs. them. like good vs. bad...

i don't bother myself with reading religious scripture. it's written by humans. i only skimmed the ten commandments to find out what the heck roy's rock was doing sitting in front of the courthouse of my state, saing to the world that i belive in what it says.

[Spirited Away]

its spelled worship

... You, of all people....

and yes it does, but do u not believe all religions worship the same God?...or pretty much all of them...and its 10..u want me to tell u them? were not supposed to try to convert ppl...thats God's job, we just tell u abt it so hopefully u open ur heart up a lil...and how is that 1 every 15 minutes i dunt get it? i go like 1 a week, or every other week...

I think then, it is quite clear that any insult he/she (? sorry) threw out was targeted at Christians who are too zealous in "spreading the faith".

And about going to religious "parties" and/or festivities, which ones have you attended? I've been too a few of them myself... and I will tell you now that the ones I've been to wasn't very exciting... *shudders*.

[princess2113]

... You, of all people....



I think then, it is quite clear that any insult he/she (? sorry) threw out was targeted at Christians who are too zealous in "spreading the faith".

And about going to religious "parties" and/or festivities, which ones have you attended? I've been too a few of them myself... and I will tell you now that the ones I've been to wasn't very exciting... *shudders*.

lol yes, me...the horrible speller

yes, i think so now 2, but it was still offensive n i told him nicely i just asked him to stop

alrite...i'll try to spell them n remember...
uposatha
magha puja or sangha day...sometime in march
vesak
asalha puja day

yeah those are ones i've heard of...i dont remember the names...my friends have parties..mostly in their houses...i kinda feel uncomfortable at them b/c i dont participate in the activities n they like stare at me like im an alien...and yeah i prefer my religious ceremonies...they r soooo much more comfortable...to me....but im used to it...i dont feel akward at Hindu ones nemore b/c ive been to them...stuff like that..yeah

[aznraver396]

blah...i'm not against either..but that for that debate...the person for christianity sucks at arguing..i could think of so many things to make everything backfire on that professor.

[ComradeRed]

Buddhists don't have parties... It goes against spiritual enlightenment to have fun.

[BeyondElite]

I hate it! I don't like the proffesor's attitude against a Christian boy. I wouldn't expect that though.

☻ ☻ ☻
AzN_PnoY_BoI

[princess2113]

Buddhists don't have parties... It goes against spiritual enlightenment to have fun.

humm ur gonna make a fool of urself in this topic as well?

[ComradeRed]

Praise the Buddha! I only seek enlightenment.

[princess2113]

Praise the Buddha! I only seek enlightenment.

o wait i thought u said praise Allah...omgg r u contradicting urself ur not funny if i was Buddhist or Muslim, i wuld find ur sarcasm offensive...when u do it abt Christianity, i get offended....just b/c ur not a believer of a religion doesnt mean u need to be sarcastic n TRY to "mock" those of us that are

[Spirited Away]

o wait i thought u said praise Allah...omgg r u contradicting urself ur not funny if i was Buddhist or Muslim, i wuld find ur sarcasm offensive...

Eh, not really... Speaking for Buddhists...

A lot of 'em younger ones are pretty cool about it. Heck they make fun of themselves most of the time. Now, if you mean the older people getting offended if someone critique their belief, sure they do, but they'll do no more than turn a blind eye on him. Remember that Buddhists are supposed to be tolerant of other faiths.

[ComradeRed]

o wait i thought u said praise Allah...omgg r u  contradicting urself ur not funny if i was Buddhist or Muslim, i wuld find ur sarcasm offensive...when u do it abt Christianity, i get offended....just b/c ur not a believer of a religion doesnt mean u need to be sarcastic n TRY to "mock" those of us that are

I converted. I have decided to renounce Allah, and go into the forests with the Samanas and find enlightenment and achieve Nirvana in this world instead of worrying about how many Virginians there will be in the next.

[EmeraldKnight]

I converted. I have decided to renounce Allah, and go into the forests with the Samanas and find enlightenment and achieve Nirvana in this world instead of worrying about how many Virginians there will be in the next.

Uh........................

What is the point of this topic? The main thing I'm seeing is religion bashing..

[ComradeRed]

That's always fun.

[EmeraldKnight]

............. I dont see how you can enjoy it and put up with the stubborness of some people around here..

[ComradeRed]

Meh. When you take life too seriously, it ceases to be funny.

[EmeraldKnight]

Meh. When you take life too seriously, it ceases to be funny. 

Wait.. what's that supposed to mean?

[babexdragon]

i like the story... it was nice. wish i read it earlier so i can go against my teacher wen he was saying stuff.

[*the_overachiever*]

Uh........................

What is the point of this topic? The main thing I'm seeing is religion bashing..

the point was originally to share a short story i found.
but it turned into a debate. eh. i guess i should`ve seen that coming.

[*Fallen_Fairy*]

god created everything, when he did he gave everything a FREE WILL.

[JlIaTMK]

god created everything, when he did he gave everything a FREE WILL.

there goes another person....
this has been the possibly 20th time i talked about this....
not everyone believes in GOD the almighty one
helo u no how many different ppl believe in different things in this world

[Spirited Away]

the point was originally to share a short story i found.
but it turned into a debate. eh. i guess i should`ve seen that coming.

Eh, the story was nothing new on cB, because I must've seen it at least 5 times in the "god" debate.

It only turned into a debate because people wouldn't accept the fact that there are more than one truth when religion is involved.

[*NatiMarie*]

I like this...

[ichiban]

Mm .. I liked that story .. =]

[angel-roh]

that sure was a long read...but wow.. but i didnt get about the heat and the cold...and the philosophy stuff...it gived me a headache...cause i didnt get it lols but oh wells newais... so ur saying that the professor is an atheists, right? so an atheist vs. christian... well of course we cant see God...but we can feel the warmth from God... from wat God has done for u...also hes not giving evil to this world...the satan is...and the devil is a fallen angel.... he just didnt want to be in God's side...he rejected his word and became selfish...so it's the satan's fault...no matter how different religion trying to make christians to make them fail to believe in Jesus Christ... we, christians cant believe in other religions. i mean like the mormons were doing advertising by going to ppls house and asking these questions like wat the professor was saying up there...that's devil's word...it's coming from the devil... the evil spirit goes into their body...and trying to tell the christians to be a mormon... so yeah... i think that was messed up wen other religions are trying to make Christians ppls turn to the other religions like the buddhism... and other religions that doesnt believe in God... thats just messed up. just leave us, christians alone. if u dont want to do that...then the evil spirit is inside u. it's trapped inside u... if u want it to get it out from u, then u shud stop judging and stuff... i wont say the atheists are bad... i dont need to judge. i just need to sit and just think about the christians and not the other religions... thats wat ur supposed to do..it's like some ppls nowadays are challening... for example like Elijah and these ppls who was worshipping other idols...Elijah was cocky and confident and told him that his God is the greatest and most powerful...it's like challenging whose God is better... i dont want to say that Elijah did a bad thing.... im just saying that... o....... i dont know but um.... umm... omg... my mind is completly blank.... ack... look wat the satan is trying to do to me... ...

[Spirited Away]

i think that was messed up wen other religions are trying to make Christians ppls turn to the other religions like the buddhism... and other religions that doesnt believe in God... thats just messed up.

I think what you've said right there is messed up

BUDDHISTS do NOT try to convert others, EVER. Sure, they talk of enlightenment when there is a need to explain things, but I've never heard of one Buddhist who would try to make Christian or ANYONE for that matter to convert.

I think you have the wrong religion here.

Buddhists usually stay quiet and ignore what other people have to say about their faith. On the other hand, there are plenty of Christians who would argue and argue to prove their faith.

If you only meant to use Buddhism as an example, then fix it, because I think you have the wrong religion.

You take that back!

just leave us, christians alone. if u dont want to do that...then the evil spirit is inside u.

Woa. Do you know that hardcore Buddhists do not want to even kill an ant that's biting them? They love life and do charity/good deeds all their life. Do you consider them to be possessed by the Devil?

[dreaming.of.ange...]

umm.. im new... and im loving the debate forum with all my heart right now...

first off before i contribute to this post let this be said.
I AM A TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC.
that means that i am not christian there are a major differences... (in fact ill probably start a topic about that...) but i do believe in god and for this topic thats all that matters
therefore due to my religion i will be undeniably bias... theres no way to help it so i am truly sorry if i offend anyone.

okay for those who are atheists... let me ask u this
what made the world? how did everything come to be? science? evolution?
think about the age old question "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"
think about it... seriously ask urself. because if u say it the egg well then tell me... how did the egg come to be? evolution again? but thats not possible now is it? after all something HAD to lay the egg right?

someone previously asked these questions: (the person i think was sadolakced acid) and i think answering these will get my point across... i hope

1. if god is perfect, and god created everything, then why is what he created flawed?

he gave us free will because he loves us that much... enough to let us choose whether or not we want to follow him and believe in him

2. the student (2nd one) failed to adress why god refuses to help people hurt, wounded, exc.

God is wise beyond human comprehension... for each individual he has a plan for them... even if they may not understand it themselves

3. if the professer had asked the student, how many times has science saved your life? probably lots of times. maybe you needed a C section to be born. maybe you broke your bone once. maybe you had a bad infection that pennicilin cured.
science has saved million.
how many does god save?

who gave the world science? how did we obtain the necessary skills to use science? penicillin was an accident wasnt it? do u think that was just a coincidence? something in this world obviously controls the strings we fail to see... and i believe its god

4. you say god is just, exc. wel, i have asked people. and according to the bible, a completely good person who's only fault is they don't belive in god, they would burn for eternity, whereas the completely evil mass murderer repents 5 seconds before his death and gets baptise, he goes to heaven?
what kind of twisted god is this?

ok... gods merciful... if u ask for mercy it will be granted. and ur question is a theory... there is no person thats completely good not one human... not a catholic, or a christian, or an atheist, etc. etc. so how could u ask that? it doesnt work like that... and the only way that that mass murderer would go straight to heaven is if he confessed every single one of his sins... something i doubt many can do (or remember...) because of that he will spend a looong time in purgatory... catholics have indulgences that are basically sets of prayers and things u do to help one of those souls get out of purgatory sooner... most are for 300 days or so... so that gives u an idea of how long u stay in purgatory
unfortunately, i doubt that will convert any atheists ( and no thats not what im trying to do... i dont think anyone religion tells u to go and convert ppl... ppl who try to convert others made that choice by themselves) but i hope this helps... but in the end everything all comes down to what u believe in and ur life because if u were brought up as a christian ull probably stay one and if uve had a hard life ull question god and doubt him

WHOA!
that is a looong post... gomenasai minna-san... got a lil carried away there

[T00000]

both sides are right in a way. Yes, God exists, but No, he is not good. He is Great, as in POWERFUL, but he is not good. Some things that he do may be good, but others arent. And that's to keep the world balanced.

pardon my stupid post... its late

[Spirited Away]

[quote=dreaming.of.angels,Jul 7 2004, 12:27 AM] umm.. im new... and im loving the debate forum with all my heart right now... [/quote]
This argument has already been brought up many times. Check out the "god" (I) topic, there are over 50 pages of arguments, and many are like yours. Good points, but many of them have already been answered, so I'll try to answer the ones that have been argued.

[quote]I AM A TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC.[/quote]
I think Kyro is one, too. But just so you'd know, I'm a humanist Agnostic (even Deist at times), not Atheist.

[quote]what made the world? how did everything come to be? science? evolution?
think about the age old question "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"
think about it... seriously ask urself.  because if u say it the egg well then tell me... how did the egg come to be? evolution again? but thats not possible now is it? after all something HAD to lay the egg right? [/quote]
^^^ already have been debated in "god" and "Chicken or the Egg" topics.

Those questions have been asked repeatedly, and still no compromising answer.

[quote]he gave us free will because he loves us that much... enough to let us choose whether or not we want to follow him and believe in him[/quote]
^^^ If He let us choose, then why do we get punished if we choose not to believe?
This point has also been debated.

[quote]God is wise beyond human comprehension... for each individual he has a plan for them... even if they may not understand it themselves[/quote]
If He has plans for us, then He might've forseen that we'd be non-believers and planned us that way, right?

[quote]who gave the world science?[/quote]
Science is nature itself and scientists only work to learn/understand/defy nature. So the question you must ask is: who gave Nature? According to Wiccans, God/ess exists in Nature. According to me, a Creator created Nature. According to many Atheists, Science is Creation itself.

[quote]how did we obtain the necessary skills to use science? penicillin was an accident wasnt it?  do u think that was just a coincidence? something in this world obviously controls the strings we fail to see... and i believe its god[/quote]
You can go ahead and believe that it's God, Atheists and some Agnostics believe it was science and the genius of man. We obtain the skills to survive (make science and technology to our convenience) through evolution.


[quote]ok... gods merciful...  if u ask for mercy it will be granted.  [/quote]
He only grants mercy to those who BELIEVE in Him. In that, I think He's unjust. This was also already debated many times over.

[quote] there is no person thats completely good not one human... not a catholic, or a christian, or an atheist, etc. etc.  so how could u ask that? it doesnt work like that...[/quote]
Actually, he had every reason to ask that.

According to many Christians, non-believers will go to Hell, no matter what they do because of their "free will".

[quote]and the only way that that mass murderer would go straight to heaven is if he confessed every single one of his sins... something i doubt many can do (or remember...) because of that he will spend a looong time in purgatory...[/quote]
Tell me if this is true or not, because I thought it was only a rumor a while back. Didn't Hitler confessed, and was "forgiven"?

[quote]but in the end everything all comes down to what u believe in and ur life because if u were brought up as a christian ull probably stay one and if uve had a hard life ull question god and doubt him[/quote]

Not only that, but also if one simply choose to have free will, and believe in whatever they see as "right".





[quote]both sides are right in a way. Yes, God exists, but No, he is not good. He is Great, as in POWERFUL, but he is not good. Some things that he do may be good, but others arent. And that's to keep the world balanced.[/quote]

Agreed!

[F_L_I_P]

too damn long to read! umm do athiest only not believe on God?

-Flip-

[Spirited Away]

too damn long to read! umm do athiest only not believe on God?

-Flip-

Sure. I don't think they believe in any Higher Power at all.

But there are differences between Atheism and Agnosticism.

I suggest you read some of the pages to avoid asking or debating points that have been brought up many times over.

[F_L_I_P]

Sure. I don't think they believe in any Higher Power at all.

But there are differences between Atheism and Agnosticism.

I suggest you read some of the pages to avoid asking or debating points that have been brought up many times over.

So that all religions right?

-Flip-

[Spirited Away]

So that all religions right?

-Flip-

I don't understand your question.

If you mean that Atheists do not have a religion, then that's true because many believe only in concepts and refuse to believe in any God/s.

[onenonly101]

both sides are right in a way. Yes, God exists, but No, he is not good. He is Great, as in POWERFUL, but he is not good. Some things that he do may be good, but others arent. And that's to keep the world balanced.

God is good, there would no point to him if he weren't good.

The idea that God decides our eternal destiny goes against our American notions of fairness and individual choice. And yet we draw strength and omfort from the belief that God is running the universe. Which is right? Is God truly sovereign, is he callin the shots, or are people free and ultimately responsible for making their own decisions, even those that have eternal consequences? It raises that question in the account of Pharaoh in Ezekiel 32. It raised itself about another Pharaoh too in the Exodus account of the pharaoh who held the Israelites captive. Did God know even before he put pharaoh in charge that he would sin? Did God allow it or cause it? Or did God simply roll the dice placing this man in authority without knowing whether or not he would obey his command to let his people go? If so does that mean that since Creation, God has been a spectator in human events, allowing us total freedom in responsibility? Either conclusions leads to some awesome implication. If God is truly sovereign, then I have no real freedom, and I'm just a puppet. But if I am truly free to do whatever I want, then God isn't really in control of the universe. This is from a different angle: Theologian J.I. Packer was asked, If God is truly sovereign, in what sense is man responsible? And if man is truly responsible, in what sense is God sovereign?. Packer replied I think it is a mystery, and that there's not much getting behind that. The really suprising thing would be if we really could understand God. Then he wouldn't be any bigger than we are." Sovereignity, responsibility,predestination,free will and mystery. the Bible teaches them all. It is not contradictory to accpet two truths because when you think about it, it makes sense that God is bigger than our minds, big enough encompass what seems to us to be paradoxical.

The twin truths of predestination and free will are parallel lines, we don't know how to bring them together, yet no one could make them cross either.

So as you see my post was pretty pointless and cleared up nothing :P

[Spirited Away]

If God is truly sovereign, then I have no real freedom, and I'm just a puppet. But if I am truly free to do whatever I want, then God isn't really in control of the universe.

But if God "plans" for us, does that not make us puppets anyway? Note, I do not believe in a Higher Being having complete control over my destiny.

Where you disagreed, I agree, because I do see the Creator as a spectator, nothing more, nothing less. That is the true meaning of free will is it not? Allowing humans to do as we please. We shouldn't even have to have "choices" because the word "free" is free of any limiting contraints, and choices are contraints.

Theologian J.I. Packer was asked, If God is truly sovereign, in what sense is man responsible? And if man is truly responsible, in what sense is God sovereign?. Packer replied I think it is a mystery, and that there's not much getting behind that.

God would be sovereign, when He allows Man to have some control over his/her fate. In this case, God is still the ruling power/decision maker (sovereign), and Man is responsible for carrying out the order (of having responsibility over his own fate). Does God not care to compromise this?

The twin truths of predestination and free will are parallel lines, we don't know how to bring them together, yet no one could make them cross either.

I'm afraid that's too symbolic/deep for me to understand and reply. Care to explain?

[onenonly101]

Ok it is like(ugh i say like too much)

You know how lines are parallel, never intersecting.

Well free will is one line and predestination is one line. some people may say that they over lap each other and makes one false, but you cannot prove it does that. So even though they could mark out the other one it they can't. They cannot cross.

I don't know if that really explained it.

Does God not care to compromise this?

But then it would be taking away the gift of free will. Soemtimes i think maybe it would be better for Him to take control of it right then, but for some reason He doesn't. There are some things God shoes to us and other things he doesn't explain to us and i figure that this is one of those situations that he onlys know for then better.

[redsoxbaby87]

this is the smae thing as with the muslim and its stupid. its pointless and tiemwasting. can we please move onto something more important?
oh and by the way...I AM A JEW.

[Spirited Away]

Ok it is like(ugh i say like too much)

You know how lines are parallel, never intersecting.

Well free will is one line and predestination is one line. some people may say that they over lap each other and makes one false, but you cannot prove it does that. So even though they could mark out the other one it they can't. They cannot cross.

I don't know if that really explained it.

but like I said, free will shouldn't have any limitting constraints, because in essences, the "free" in free will means the liberty have control.

Erm, I still don't understand the example . Someone said that God have plans for all of us. Well, what if he planned that I not believe in Him?

But then it would be taking away the gift of free will. Soemtimes i think maybe it would be better for Him to take control of it right then, but for some reason He doesn't. There are some things God shoes to us and other things he doesn't explain to us and i figure that this is one of those situations that he onlys know for then better.

But it wouldn't be taking away free will:

If He ordered us to have free will and left us to our devices, then He would still be the sovereign who made the law, and we would still have free will. We could then "freely" choose to believe or not to believe and not have to worry about punishments.

[*CEP*]

this is the smae thing as with the muslim and its stupid. its pointless and tiemwasting. can we please move onto something more important?
oh and by the way...I AM A JEW.

Like how the Yankees are so cool?
And how they're gonna most likely kill the red sox even with curt schilling.
Yeah, we should talk about that.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[xHalf nHalf]

man that was an awesome read

i wish i wouldve gotten here sooner to give some of my input on alot of comments

[Spirited Away]

i wish i wouldve gotten here sooner to give some of my input on alot of comments

It's not too late to tell us what you think. I would love to hear another's opinion on this topic.

[xjjajeengx]

WOOOAHHHHHHH omg. if that guy who stood up like that was real, then woah i would go marry him right now just kidding...

i totally am in awe right now. that is SOOO TRUE

No, we do have free will. God wants us to be part of his plan, thus he lets us make our own decisions. However, he does not FOLLOW our own wills. So whatever path we choose, if it is not God's will, he does not follow our will. SO, its not a punishment from God, it is a punishment from our OWN decision.
We make our decision whether we want to believe or not. God just doesnt want us to goto hell, so he wants us to believe. I mean, he created us; what kinda God would create his sons and daughters and leave us to torment in hell? That is why God tries so hard to show us things at times, like love, compassion, mercy, etc. But, he leaves us to decide whether we're going to have faith in him despite all the chaos in this world or not. Whether we make believe or not, that is up to us, and, that also includes the price we pay if we choose the wrong path.

hope i made sense there.

[Spirited Away]

No, we do have free will. God wants us to be part of his plan, thus he lets us make our own decisions. However, he does not FOLLOW our own wills. So whatever path we choose, if it is not God's will, he does not follow our will. SO, its not a punishment from God, it is a punishment from our OWN decision.

Ah, we have "free" will, but we must follow God's definition of free will.

Okay, gotcha... or maybe not.

Are you sure that's free will? Lets see, Someone graced me the power to think for myself, but if I think too much and go out side of that Someone's circle and explore, then I'd get punished because my sense of free will got carried away.

Wait a minute, isn't "free will" limitless? If so, then how can "free will" ever be 'too much' or 'carried away' or wrong for that matter?

If God gave me free will, then He gave me the ability to get carried away, to think too much, to be wrong and yet right, in His eyes. After all, free will was His idea. Why should someone be punished because of following God's idea?

Do you think that's fair?

We make our decision whether we want to believe or not. God just doesnt want us to goto hell, so he wants us to believe.

If He REALLY didn't want us to go to Hell, He shouldn't have given us "free will". Or atleast, gave more proof of His existence/involvement in our lives than the fabled Bible.

*Note that I do not emphasize the question of His existence, but I do question Religion and the credibility of Bible itself*

I mean, he created us; what kinda God would create his sons and daughters and leave us to torment in hell?

That's what I want to know. Why create us, and punish us when we use free will.

But, he leaves us to decide whether we're going to have faith in him despite all the chaos in this world or not. Whether we make believe or not, that is up to us, and, that also includes the price we pay if we choose the wrong path.

If more than half of the world's population pray for world peace, do you think we'll get it through the mercy of God? If that happens, then I'd believe in God's involvement in human life, if not, then forget it. Nothing is convincing enough.

Yea, I pay the price for His ideas. I get punished because He decided to give free will, that's NOT REALLY free will.

I just don't get it.

[princess2113]

u have freedom in the US right...i mean the governement doesnt stand by ur door n be like "u cant do this" they try to help by enfocing laws and things like warning on ur speed...God does that 2...He sends signs and gives us the Laws(The 10 Commandments) He doesnt stand there for everything and FORCE u to not do it...but if u break the law, u go to jail right, or sume other punishment...same with God...u are punished if u dunt follow the Laws...one Law is to love God

[Spirited Away]

u have freedom in the US right...i mean the governement doesnt stand by ur door n be like "u cant do this" they try to help by enfocing laws and things like warning on ur speed...God does that 2...He sends signs and gives us the Laws(The 10 Commandments) He doesnt stand there for everything and FORCE u to not do it...but if u break the law, u go to jail right, or sume other punishment...same with God...u are punished if u dunt follow the Laws...one Law is to love God

Ah, but it is silly to compare the Almighty with a mortal law.

The government can be what we make of it. It bends by the will of the people, if that will is strong enough. After all, we MAKE governments, we can overthrow it if its laws oppresses/condems us.

Are you suggesting that we can overthrow God?

[redsoxbaby87]

I believe but just for the purpose of being difficult...

how do you know that the bible is correct?

[danyo]

Well free will is one line and predestination is one line. some people may say that they over lap each other and makes one false, but you cannot prove it does that. So even though they could mark out the other one it they can't. They cannot cross.

I'm not sure what this meant but the way i see it is that God has a plan for you assuming you are a follower because if you are not a follower of God, HE has no power over your freedom of choice that HE already gave to you, which is also why HE cant force you to believe because HE can't take that freedom of choice away. So one line is the plan HE has for you, a good life, a very rich life, not meaning with earthly riches and what not but peace and love within you.
"Someone who is rich is not one who has alot, but needs the least."
And the other line isn't really there, it is being drawn as you live, and HE is trying to make the line over lap as much as possible so that you can have what HE has instore for you. And if you do start following that line, you will know because HE will bless you with alot of wonderful things.

God made heaven and hell.
Heaven for us, hell for satan.
See, through God we are "saved" from satan and if we aren't saved, we are either followers of satan OR we are following satan's plans without even knowing it. So basically, you end up in hell.. not for punishment but because you did not take the sacrifice that Jesus has given you to pass. Jesus is like a ticket[through Jesus' blood we are cleansed, not meaning we are a better person but, He erases the wrong we do. Doesn't mean we do less wrong because that is still based on how you live with your freedom of choice that has been given.]. into Heaven and if you don't have it[don't take it, and love Jesus and God for that and live to for HIM], you can not enter because HE can not let any of the "unclean" inside Heaven.

See, it's not a punishment that God has given to us if we don't make the right choice. It's the matter of which path you take. here is an example of what i mean.. hope it works..
Donghaeng...walking with him
and please don't be offended by one going up and the other going down.. i know not all non-believers mess around, playing your whole life and take the easy way. and also, if you are a non-believer now and become a christian later, you've been climbing ever since the first doubt because since you went throu so much, you are stronger in your faith, you're higher up the stairs, closer to the kingdom of heaven, and you defeated alot of doubts that some cant. if dat doesnt make sense, just know that i know its not true that non-believers have a easy life. life is tough.

Erm, I still don't understand the example . Someone said that God have plans for all of us. Well, what if he planned that I not believe in Him?

Lets say that there is a God, why would HE plan for you to not believe in HIM? if you dont then HE will try lots of things to show that HE does exist. Everyone in this world is family to HIM because if HE does exist, HE made you. HIS love for you is greater than any love a person give to a person because he gave you the feeling of love.

[Spirited Away]

Lets say that there is a God, why would HE plan for you to not believe in HIM? if you dont then HE will try lots of things to show that HE does exist. Everyone in this world is family to HIM because if HE does exist, HE made you. HIS love for you is greater than any love a person give to a person because he gave you the feeling of love.

Because then God would be selfless and love ALL His children the same.

There are parents who love their children regardless of who they are and what they do in love. Those parents are selfless and self-sacrificing. God isn't anywhere near selfless if He expects something in return.

Sure, I can almost hear you say that GOD SACRIFICED HIS ONLY SON for us to live in Paradise and that's the most self-less act ever!!! Not really. There are people who would sacrifice their own lives to save those that they love as well.

There are goodness and evil. If God is the foundation of goodness then He will embrace all goodness, not just favor a few and disregard the others.

[acidbreeze]

Whoo yay!
That explained a lot.
At first, I thought you were going to show proof of no God though the professor but then the second student proved him wrong.

I probably will read both of those books.
Good points, all of you.