Save the Movie/TV & Music Subforums., Protect the minority! Do not combine! Options

[NoSex]

If you are going to vote here, I am requesting that you please, in the very least, read most of this post. I also encourage you to investigate the happenings in the "feedback" forums. The man is changing this place up; let your informed voice be heard. Thank you.

Hello,

I am an art enthusiast (sort of). When I first became involved in CreateBlog, many years ago, I was very excited to be a part of a large and vibrant community. However, I soon found that the sizable stature of the site had its disadvantages as well as its advantages. Sometimes forums moved too fast and worthwhile topics would be buried and lost (nearly forever) under a barrage of "drive-by" style posts asking non-stimulating, and (ultimately) uninteresting questions ("What is your favorite color?"). As a sort of art-enthusiast, as I became more involved in the community here, I began to campaign for what is now the "Art" subforum under "Interests." (I also became more vocal about what I felt could be the future of CreateBlog's community center).

The campaign for the "Art" subforum was inspired by what I saw as a systematic, and nearly unstoppable, drowning of certain unpopular topics. There was a good handful of people that cared to talk about art more seriously, but, of course, there was an even greater handful that did not. And, since there was no immediately appropriate place to put topics concerning more technical discussion on art, nearly all the topics designed for such discussion disappeared under the far more populated topics in "The Lounge" and "Entertainment." A minority did fight for their "Art" forum, and we got it.

Admittingly, we sort of neglected the subforum. However, a small group of people made it their home for a short period of time. And, no one who cared to notice, was hurt in the process. We made a few people happy. It felt sort of good. Like, change could happen even for the little guy. But, the story of the "Art" subforum is only a vehicle at which I hope to bring us to my true concern:

In the initial plan for reorganization of the forums (happening right now), the "General Entertainment," "Movies/TV," and "Music" subforums will be combined to form a single forum (which will be placed on the front page). The argument is that "Movies/TV" and "Music" just are not popular enough to mandate separate forums and that, by combing them with "General Entertainment" and placing the new forum on the front page, there will be an increase in traffic.

When we first separated these threads it was in oder to add an emphasis to topical discussion, decrease traffic so that less popular threads weren't immediately buried under more popular ones, and in the hope of encouraging more quality posting. I believe the separation was successful, however, some people seem to be suggesting that the separation is not generally liked. I don't know if I believe that.

It has been suggested that clicking into a subforum in order to talk about movies or music has been an issue for some people. I can understand, to an extent, that frustration. However, I would hope to appeal to everyone's reason here: If you're frustrated with clicking into a subforum, you'll be a hundred times more frustrated when you have to search through pages just to find yesterday's topics.

Attaching two unpopular subforums to a popular one, won't make the unpopular ones anymore popular... all it will do is bury the topics associated with those less popular subforums. Now, instead of having to click into a subforum, you might have to skim pages of threads just to find one topic that doesn't happen to be as popular as all the rest. This is needless and counter-intuitive to the ideal of accessibility.

I like both movies and music, but, by separating them I can more easily focus on, find, and enjoy topical discussion. Threads aren't lost, and I know exactly where I can go to find the sort of discussion I want. If we aspire to combine these supposedly unpopular forums with a more popular one, we have to realize that those people who are immediately interested or concerned with movies and music will have a harder time getting their topics read, replied to, or on the front page for more than a few days (given their respective popularities).

In "Feedback," Micron said this to me:

im sorry, but i dont cater to special interest groups. im here for the people, and im here for change, change that you can believe in.

Who else would you cater to, concerning these subforums, other than the people who care most and have the most interest in them? If you resolve to combine the forums, you will not be helping "the people," you will only be hurting a certain group of people. We all know where the subforums are and how to get to them. You're insulting "the people," when you suggest that they are so lazy that they cannot navigate the forums. And, you're hurting the community when you value traffic and quantity so highly above quality. We don't just want our threads read, we want them meaningfully considered.

If you care about the quality of these boards, and you want to show Micron what "the people" truly want, show him that we care about the little guys. We want the "Art" subforum, just as much as we want the "Movie/TV" and "Music" subforums. Even if we don't use them excessively. Even if they aren't the most popular forums on the site. We want our voices heard by the people that care to listen. We do not want our voices stomped on by the many who don't care for our muses on Immortal Technique and Wes Anderson. Through distinction our voices can truly be heard... if we homogenize now, these cries may fall only on deaf ears.

I DON'T WANT TO READ v.1.0:

1. Combination bad.
2. Separation good.

Vote "No" on Recombination!

[Tung]

I actually read all of that Nate. I was immensely turned on by reading highly intellectual writing for a good 3 minutes.

I vote no on recombination! I like my separation please.

[DoubleJ]

I am against it as well. Why can't things go back to the way they were before they started combining in the first place? If it wasn't broke (in the general sense) then why did they need to fix it? Instead of fixing the whole thing, certain areas should have been worked on.

Separation is key.

[NoSex]

I vote no on recombination! I like my separation please.

I am against it as well.

Thank you, for your support guys. I'm glad that some prominent and vocal members of our community are getting behind this issue.

But, supposedly, that is one of this cause's downfalls: We have been told that vocal members represent a minority viewpoint and that the majority truly don't want separation. Well, personally, my main goal here is not merely persuasion. I also hope to give a voice to those people whose position on the matter has just been presupposed by the opposition. It was suggested that our position in the community makes us intimidating (which is a funny suggestion coming from a staff member). Well, if that is true, this is an anonymous opportunity for all interested parties to voice their opinion (without retribution). Even if they don't feel the need to explain their argument, at least now we can actually tally their feelings (as opposed to fabricating them as a means to support our own backwards "for the people" position).

I have high hopes for all of us.

[pandora]

Hmm this poll doesn't quite cover all the bases. An option should be added to include "I don't really care. I'll keep coming back regardless."

[Flaunted]

^

I really don't care.

[pandora]

And you do realize that you are probably going to get like 40 people to actually participate in this poll. That's 40 out of about 1000 people that are signed on during the peak hours of the day. So if 30 people vote against this change, and 10 people vote for it... can we assume that the other 960 people don't give a damn?

[NoSex]

Hmm this poll doesn't quite cover all the bases. An option should be added to include "I don't really care. I'll keep coming back regardless."

If they don't care, they probably shouldn't vote. This is a thread about caring for this community and caring about the direction that it is taking.

I can understand coming back to this community even if its not in its best shape (I've been doing it for years now). But, it's always been in the hopes of making better connections, and improving the climate of discussion here - both learning and teaching, every single day. Even if there is combination, I will still fight for those unpopular threads to be heard (and I would suspect no different from anyone else who wants to talk about what they care about). But, that is not to say that I won't sigh, regretfully - this separation has been so great for us who care about discussing the movies we love, the music we listen to, and the television we can't help but keep watching.

In simple response: I don't see the need for such an option and I respectfully ask those who do not care (either way) to refrain from voting in this poll. Your absence is understood and appreciated.

... can we assume that the other 960 people don't give a damn?

I will never, for the life of me, understand why you are so fervent in making happy the people you describe as not "giving a damn."

[pandora]

Well I'm not saying that they dont care about the site. I'm saying they care enough that they'll keep coming back regardless if it's a change that 30 people happen to dislike.

I'm saying that... If I'm a member that votes for "I don't care," the placement of these topics/forums does not effect me much, if at all. I will keep posting in them regardless of where they are. I know what things I like to talk about. I think I spend a considerable amount of time carefully wording my posts. I obviously care about the site's wellbeing, but I just don't think I care about such a minor change that only 30 people have voiced dissent over. I am neither for or against it. I am for whatever change is necessary to make a better site. And I cannot say or decide which is the better choice until I have seen the statistics to support either side (which would reveal itself after the change is made).


copied from feedback:

ok let me also bring something else to light here. immediately after we reorganized the forums last time... jusun told us he didnt agree with it. he didn't like it. we implored him to give it a shot as we'd gotten a lot of good feedback from the handful of you. so he very graciously gave us a shot.


when the results came back, they were not in our favor. the numbers don't support the "feedback" we've gotten. obviously something went wrong.

now jusun is asking us to give his idea a shot. we'll see where it takes us, and if the results don't show any improvement, then i guess we need to do more.

if you really think that the proposed change is bad... prove us wrong. a poll won't do you or us any justice here. only 40 or so members will actually partipate in the poll. there are 419,913 members here. let us make the change, and see what happens. if you guys dont like the change i'm sure that the numbers will let us know exactly that. but you can't know for sure unless we try it.

[NoSex]

Well I'm not saying that they dont care about the site. I'm saying they care enough that they'll keep coming back regardless if it's a change that 30 people happen to dislike.

1. If the placement of the forums is of no concern to one member, then their opinions on this topic are irrelevant.
2. Given the irrelevancy of a member who has no care for forum organization (a sort of member, I suspect, is a rarity), only those who do mind should be taken into consideration (all else being equal).
3. I don't believe this is a minor change. I think this is a microcosm of a larger issue concerning, still, quality vs. quantity.
4. What you seem to think will make a "better site" does not seem to be synonymous with what you seem to think might make a "better community." You can track the popularity of a thread using appropriate statistical measurement, but you can not gage the quality of a discussion by how many posts are in a thread. What is going to be best for this community is not mere traffic... it's the proliferation of quality discussion and meaningful connections.
5. Your argumentation is not convincing: by emphasizing a position of apathy, you're doing nothing but confusing your supporters. If what you want is best "for the people" and "for the site," then demonstrate to us how combination (and the changes you have proposed) will indeed benefit the community. I have actually argued my side. All you have done is insulted the voice of the people by upholding and inflating the relevancy of "don't give a damners." You have entirely ignored your own so-called position.

[pandora]

let me ask you a question, and please answer truthfully...

how many times have you browsed through the lounge... saw a topic with a poll attached to it (from the forum view) and then just... didn't click?

I've done that a number of times. I haven't even voted on this poll. I nulled my vote, because honestly I cannot form an informed opinion until I have seen the statistical results to support either argument. I can't see that until the change has been made.

Now I refuse to let you tell me that... by choosing not to vote in this poll, it means I do not care about this site. I think I've made enough contributions to this website, and have stuck with it throughout all the bullshit that I've had to endure to let you know clearly and resoundingly that I care a whole lot about the welfare of this website.



And honestly guys I fail to see how the order of the forums will effect the quality of the topics. If you guys want some quality discussion, then make some. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

[dustbunny]

I chose against combination as well, mainly because I am concerned about the whole idea of quality vs quantity. Lounge topics such as the typical "what is something random that happened to you today" or the aforementioned "what is your favorite color" are obviously going to get more traffic. The thing is, no one freaking reads the other responses. It's 1. click on last post 2. click on fast reply 3. type in color of choice. The end. Does anyone on this forum honestly read every single response to the topic question? I highly doubt a meaningful discussion with three people over "favorite colors" is going to arise from such a topic. Does anyone really truly read the "random happenings" of people? Yes yes, I understand that the lounge is a place to relax, etc and all that; but really, traffic there is only higher because posts only require 1 word responses. oh oh oh and you can respond as many times as you want! hooray for posting responses that no one will ever read nor acknowledge!

anyways, I just don't feel that the statistics are used correctly to make this sort of change.

I haven't finished my thoughts on this, but I gotta head out, I'll probably finish this up later.


good topics die really fast. :(

[pandora]

I understand the concept of quality over quantity. But honestly, if the quality of such a topic isn't so great, then I would imagine people would stop visiting it. It's up to you guys to create quality content. The organization of the forums really has nothing to do with the quality of the discussion. I didn't make the aforementioned threads, and neither did Jusun. One of you guys did. I'm not going to apologize for something someone else did. Make sense?

[dustbunny]

But honestly, if the quality of such a topic isn't so great, then I would imagine people would stop visiting it.

...except people don't. the new kids on the block will always always keep bumping those topics, resulting in 13413 versions.

I'm not going to apologize for something someone else did. Make sense?

apologize? I wasn't blaming this on anyone in particular, I'm just pointing out the fact that high traffic is due to easy-to-respond-to topics. It's just a recurring trend/cycle: new members will go post in those topics, new versions will be made, topic will always be bumped, etc.

[pandora]

If we're getting newer members to post, then I don't see why that's a bad thing?

[dustbunny]

posting replies that no one will read?

so what's the goal of this forum then? more members the better? more posts the better? stronger sense of "community"?

if it's community we're going for here, I don't see how the endless versions of [insert topic] here really promotes that feeling. No other members are going to cry from excitement when they discover that another member loves the same color they do. Sense of community should develop from heated discussions, sharing ideas, critiquing and commenting on things, etc, not from topics that ask you how many views there are on your profile. I'm not saying we shouldn't have those topics, but keeping various topics separate is important: those who want to do drive-by posting can do it in their topics if they want, while those that are looking for something else can go to a part of the forum completely dedicated to their needs.

[NoSex]

I didn't make the aforementioned threads, and neither did Jusun. One of you guys did. I'm not going to apologize for something someone else did.

But you're not doing anything to encourage quality posting. By combining subforums you're making it more difficult to locate people with a shared and or common interest. It's like holding a Star Wars convention in the same building as a Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, and Stargate convention - it's detrimental to a focus. The noise (all those Chewbacca impersonators) makes it more difficult to find out where to go if all you care about is hyper-speed. Suddenly, the Stargate and Battlestar geeks are being pushed out of the building because there are way too many Trekies and Star Wars nerds.

We have to cater to certain interests so things are actually organized and convenient for everyone. It might be fine for someone who doesn't care about any of those Sci-fi shows to waltz into the convention building to take a piss. And, it might to entirely piss off a Star Wars fan - they largely out-number all other convention goers. But, the less popular kids (how much less popular can you be, right?) might get tired of being pushed out of the very same convention they invested in...

Do you know what a compromise is? Let all of the Sci-fi geeks have their own individual (and specific) buildings for their own convention! The people who actually care to get to the convention won't ever have a problem, and the cool kids who don't care either way won't know the difference. This makes everyone happy. The Star Wars kids might have a larger turn-out than the Stargate dweebs, but at least the Stargate dweebs have a place to call their own (and they're probably happy with that).

Alright, I really ran away with this analogy (isn't it funny to think about?), but... when you say that it's entirely up to us to create worthwhile content, you're being entirely unfair to those of us who do create good content, only for it to be lost and misplaced in the shuffle of far more popular threads. To promote quality posting, keep the subforums separated so that people can more easily find exactly what they're looking for, and know that those people who will actually take the time to look in the same place, might actually care to read what they have to say.

Cause, it can't be fun being the only Quantum Leap fan at a Trekie convention.

[pandora]

posting replies that no one will read?

so what's the goal of this forum then? more members the better? more posts the better? stronger sense of "community"?

all members need to start somewhere. they post in the less-intimidating topics first, then eventually and gradually they start posting more meaningful stuffs. i implore everyone to look at their first few posts they ever made. tell me, has the quality improved over time or were you MVP's since you joined the site?

[dustbunny]

so everytime a member joins, those topics are bumped. then what about our other topics? they get drowned out. thought-out meaningful replies do not spring forth in such mass amounts capable of rivaling the hordes of new members frantically telling everyone about their shoe size.

the point we're trying to make here is that those of us that care about those meaningful responses need to be able to go somewhere for those responses. "the compromise" is all we need, new members can do their post testing, while the oldies will always have their place as well.

[pandora]

I see what you're saying now and you do make a good point.

[dustbunny]

thanks for hearing us out trish

[pandora]

but im an official designer now and my opinion NO LONGER MATTERS TO DANI AND REBS.

[NoSex]

so what's the goal of this forum then? more members the better? more posts the better? stronger sense of "community"?

Despite all of my self-prescribed eloquence... Betty really stole the show.

Thank you.

[pandora]

This statement, in particular, impressed me:

so everytime a member joins, those topics are bumped. then what about our other topics? they get drowned out. thought-out meaningful replies do not spring forth in such mass amounts capable of rivaling the hordes of new members frantically telling everyone about their shoe size.

[*paperplane*]

I posted in the other thread, but I definitely think we should leave the "majority" to their general entertainment forum, and leave us our subforums.

Really though, this "vocal minority" thing is getting to me. If a new, unknown member posts an opinion on these matters, would that put her in the position to speak for the majority? Or would it automatically make her a part of the minority? (Or, am I just getting all confused because the caffeine hasn't hit me yet?)

[The-March-Hare]

Really though, this "vocal minority" thing is getting to me. If a new, unknown member posts an opinion on these matters, would that put her in the position to speak for the majority? Or would it automatically make her a part of the minority? (Or, am I just getting all confused because the caffeine hasn't hit me yet?)

Interesting...

[Tung]

And you do realize that you are probably going to get like 40 people to actually participate in this poll. That's 40 out of about 1000 people that are signed on during the peak hours of the day. So if 30 people vote against this change, and 10 people vote for it... can we assume that the other 960 people don't give a damn?

that's a sort of a flawed number. no way do 960 people post on the forums. hell, 80%+ of cB members don't even post on the forums. they just go on this site for the html and layouts. only about 100 people actually post on the forums continuously. and if 40/100 people isn't enough then I don't know what is.

[brooklyneast05]

Really though, this "vocal minority" thing is getting to me. If a new, unknown member posts an opinion on these matters, would that put her in the position to speak for the majority? Or would it automatically make her a part of the minority? (Or, am I just getting all confused because the caffeine hasn't hit me yet?)

yeahhhhhhhhh this is kinda what i don't get either.

[NoSex]

When is anyone going to compliment me on my sci-fi convention analogy? I thought it was pretty rad, myself.

In either case, fight! fight! fight!

Vote "No" on combination!

[superstitious]

Victory! =)

I'm going to go ahead and close this. Please contact me if you feel that it need to be re-opened.