Debate for school Options

[concreteangel]

I have a debate that is due this Friday.
The debate is about whether or not someone should get a kidney transplant or not. One side is if it is a birth defect and the other side is if they are a drinker and need a transplant. My group is on the side of the transplant for the birth defect. I've searched and searched and cant find diddly squat to help me with this situation.
So that is why I'm asking you to tell me what your views on each side.
What side would you choose and why?

[cori-catastrophe]

i would choose the defected patient. the drinking patient has himself in that situation, while the defected patient can't help their fate when it comes to that. the drinking patient might use certain excuses, such as genetics or addiction, but nontheles, they can still control themselves. they obviously give into temptation too easily and the defected patient shouldn't have to suffer or die for their mistakes.

[*SayBloodyMary*]

Wait, so is the debate about one kidney, and who should receive it, the patient with the birth-defect, or the drinker? Or is it like two mini-debates, with one for each scenario?

[laxumaster8]

well, both type of patients should get a kidney transplant...but one with a birth defect should receive one before a drinker...one reason is what hazardous said

[concreteangel]

Wait, so is the debate about one kidney, and who should receive it, the patient with the birth-defect, or the drinker? Or is it like two mini-debates, with one for each scenario?

The debate is about one kidney and who should recieve it.

[Simba]

Whoever needs it more immediately should have first dibs.

[kimmytree]

Well, a person with a birth defect should definitely get a kidney before someone who needs one as a result from drinking. Too bad there arent organs for everyone who needs them.

Yay for stem cell research! [/random]

[michellerrific]

The person with the birth defect should deserve it first.
The drinker ended up there by his actions. Drinking is absolutely 110% optional and he didn't have to put his/her own health in danger.

[iGio]

Whoever needs it more immediately should have first dibs.

Agreed.It depends on how extreme each case is like if the drunkie needed it right away because if he didnt he would die right away or same with the one with the birth defect.To me it doesnt matter if the drunkie put himself at that risk.It's like saying "oh he put himself in that position,he should die"I dont think it will work like that.So yeah it depends on how extreme each case is,I wish they both could get a kidney.

[*kryogenix*]

Just wag your finger and keep shouting "OBJECTION!" and you're sure to win.

[sadolakced acid]

drinking kills your liver first. the kidney probably isn't realated to the drinking, unless he's aready had a liver transplant.

drop that on them.

[*kryogenix*]

Also, compare the other side to nazis. That one gets em every time.

[Gigi]

Yes, but does that mean that someone who has "put themselves" into that situation be denied any treatment? I know many of you harbour resentment towards self-created problems, but does that mean that one person's actions dictate whether their life has any worth?

I'd say to give it to whoever needed it the most, depending on how long they had to live and how severe it was.

[cori-catastrophe]

Yes, but does that mean that someone who has "put themselves" into that situation be denied any treatment? I know many of you harbour resentment towards self-created problems, but does that mean that one person's actions dictate whether their life has any worth?

I'd say to give it to whoever needed it the most, depending on how long they had to live and how severe it was.

i'm not saying that their life is worthless. no one forced them to drink. it was their decision. they chose their own fate. they obviously didn't care to ruin their life in the first place. you can base that by their decision and lack of caring. the birth defected patient didn't have an option to choose their fate.

[iGio]

i'm not saying that their life is worthless. no one forced them to drink. it was their decision. they chose their own fate. they obviously didn't care to ruin their life in the first place. you can base that by their decision and lack of caring. the birth defected patient didn't have an option to choose their fate.

^I dont mean to throw this crappy excuse in.But what If the drunkie had an addiction.Doesn't mean he/she had a lack in care about their own health,right?

[sadolakced acid]

I suppose none of you care that if the drinker needs a kidney, it is not directly caused by the drinking? they would have to have had a pre-existing medical condition that was compounded by the drinking for the drinking to be related to the need of a kidney.

i see i've entered the no-fact zone.

[cori-catastrophe]

^I dont mean to throw this crappy excuse in.But what If the drunkie had an addiction.Doesn't mean he/she had a lack in care about their own health,right?

they could still control themselves. that's like saying when you're young and you start drugs and get addicted, people should respect you for not getting off of them because you have no will to. my dad was a drunk. he was addicted. he controlled himself and saved his life. anyone else can to if they really have the will-power to. the same goes for alot of my family. the dna in my family causes us to get addicted to things very easily. i'll have you know, my grandma and grandpa did cocaine for a majority of their lives. they were drug dealers and got sent to prison. they had a addiction, but saved their lives. they have a choice to live or die.

[kimmytree]

^ But still, who's to say you're dad wont have medical problems in the future, as a result of drinking in the past? That's good that he's turned his life around, but he still could pay the price later on.

Oh and sadolakced acid is right, drinking causes liver problems... not kidney damage. But either way, just because a person has put themself in a situation doesnt mean they intentionally put themself there knowing for sure that one day they would have some type of disease because of it. [/woah major run on]

If a child needs an organ due to a birth defect but has several months to live... and an adult who smoke/drank/whatever making themself need the same organ, and only has a few weeks to live - I'd let the child wait for another organ and give it to the adult. But if both the child and the adult had the same amount of time left, then the child definitely deserves the organ. Even if they both needed one as a result of having a birth defect, the child should still come first.

[iGio]

they could still control themselves. that's like saying when you're young and you start drugs and get addicted, people should respect you for not getting off of them because you have no will to. my dad was a drunk. he was addicted. he controlled himself and saved his life. anyone else can to if they really have the will-power to. the same goes for alot of my family. the dna in my family causes us to get addicted to things very easily. i'll have you know, my grandma and grandpa did cocaine for a majority of their lives. they were drug dealers and got sent to prison. they had a addiction, but saved their lives. they have a choice to live or die.

Good point,don't get me wrong I respect your father for being as strong as he was.But not everyone has that will power.You can go to rehab,or somewhere else to treat your problem.There's no way that you will def. be able to stop nor have the will power to turn their lives around No matter how hard they try.An addiction is not just some small thing you can say you will put and end to and voila it happens.I agree to exactly what kimmy said.

[cori-catastrophe]

^ But still, who's to say you're dad wont have medical problems in the future, as a result of drinking in the past? That's good that he's turned his life around, but he still could pay the price later on.

Oh and sadolakced acid is right, drinking causes liver problems... not kidney damage. But either way, just because a person has put themself in a situation doesnt mean they intentionally put themself there knowing for sure that one day they would have some type of disease because of it. [/woah major run on]

If a child needs an organ due to a birth defect but has several months to live... and an adult who smoke/drank/whatever making themself need the same organ, and only has a few weeks to live - I'd let the child wait for another organ and give it to the adult. But if both the child and the adult had the same amount of time left, then the child definitely deserves the organ. Even if they both needed one as a result of having a birth defect, the child should still come first.

which is my point. he chose to drink in the first place, which caused the addiction. he may very very have some medical problems because of it. actually, he already does. but you see, that was his choice in the first place. no one forced him, so it's his fault. that's like saying being raped is your fault if you disagree with that. i hope you don't.
you can't tell me that an adult, or teenager for that matter, doesn't know the risks of drinking, smoking, drugs, ect. when they first start it/ of course, it's peer pressure nintey-nine percent of the time, but they still have an option to say no and it's their screw-up if they don't. they knows the risks but choose their deicsion anyways. again, you just brought up another one of my points. the adult has lived longer than the child.

Good point,don't get me wrong I respect your father for being as strong as he was.But not everyone has that will power.You can go to rehab,or somewhere else to treat your problem.There's no way that you will def. be able to stop nor have the will power to turn their lives around No matter how hard they try.An addiction is not just some small thing you can say you will put and end to and voila it happens.I agree to exactly what kimmy said.

i didn't say it was easy to have an intervention and break the addiction, did i? of course it's not easy, but it's certainly not impossible. again, they have the will-power.

[kimmytree]

^ I get what you're saying. But when you go through the drive thru at Mcdonalds, do you think about possibly becoming addicted to food and eventually becoming obese? I think drinking is the same way. Most people when they start drinking, they think they are tough enough to not get addicted. I think drugs is a totally different story, but as far as drinking and smoking goes - I think the people realize what COULD happen to them in the end (if they do become addicted), but dont think they'll actually make it to that point. Anyways, not every person who drinks/smokes has major health problems because of it. I have a great grandmother who just recently died of old age at 93, and she was a heavy smoker for almost 50 years. She never had any heath problems. But then again, some people can smoke for just a couple of years and die from lung cancer.

[cori-catastrophe]

^ I get what you're saying. But when you go through the drive thru at Mcdonalds, do you think about possibly becoming addicted to food and eventually becoming obese? I think drinking is the same way. Most people when they start drinking, they think they are tough enough to not get addicted. I think drugs is a totally different story, but as far as drinking and smoking goes - I think the people realize what COULD happen to them in the end (if they do become addicted), but dont think they'll actually make it to that point. Anyways, not every person who drinks/smokes has major health problems because of it. I have a great grandmother who just recently died of old age at 93, and she was a heavy smoker for almost 50 years. She never had any heath problems. But then again, some people can smoke for just a couple of years and die from lung cancer.

so...
they still made a mistake.
i'm not sure what you're getting at.

[demolished]

For the drinkers, why not allow them to have only one chance due to drinking problem, kidney transplant.


everyone deserves help. If you're a drinker with kidney transplant, you better shape up and start being healthy. there's no 2nd chance in life with a new kidney ... otherwise, you're even worse.

[iGio]

which is my point. he chose to drink in the first place, which caused the addiction. he may very very have some medical problems because of it. actually, he already does. but you see, that was his choice in the first place. no one forced him, so it's his fault. that's like saying being raped is your fault if you disagree with that. i hope you don't.
you can't tell me that an adult, or teenager for that matter, doesn't know the risks of drinking, smoking, drugs, ect. when they first start it/ of course, it's peer pressure nintey-nine percent of the time, but they still have an option to say no and it's their screw-up if they don't. they knows the risks but choose their deicsion anyways. again, you just brought up another one of my points. the adult has lived longer than the child.

i didn't say it was easy to have an intervention and break the addiction, did i? of course it's not easy, but it's certainly not impossible. again, they have the will-power.

^Your missing my point.I didn't say you said it was easy.I was stating simply your saying they have will power.Having will power will not always be enough to stop the addiction.I agree with kim again

[cori-catastrophe]

^Your missing my point.I didn't say you said it was easy.I was stating simply your saying they have will power.Having will power will not always be enough to stop the addiction.I agree with kim again

again, i didn't say it would stop the addiction. i'm just saying that they have a choice. will-power is a majority of breaking any addiction though. like i said, it's not impossible for anyone.
edit:
oh yeah. and kimmy, on this topic, i've been waiting for you to reply for around a week now.

[iGio]

again, i didn't say it would stop the addiction. i'm just saying that they have a choice. will-power is a majority of breaking any addiction though. like i said, it's not impossible for anyone.
edit:
oh yeah. and kimmy, on this topic, i've been waiting for you to reply for around a week now.

^Again I never said you did say that.When you have an addiction,at first it was a choice to do it but once your addicted you no longer have a choice.It's not something you just go and say "oh hah I will stop doing this".It's not Impossible to stop but it may not always be a choice no matter how hard you try.Its the urge that makes you want to do it.

[cori-catastrophe]

^Again I never said you did say that.When you have an addiction,at first it was a choice to do it but once your addicted you no longer have a choice.It's not something you just go and say "oh hah I will stop doing this".It's not Impossible to stop but it may not always be a choice no matter how hard you try.Its the urge that makes you want to do it.

most of the time it's peer pressure. choices, choices, choices. people should learn to good make choices. that's just a fact. even if it was an "urge" that caused it, it's still a choice. no one forced anyone do drink. so it's their own fault. i'm in no way saying that they should get an organ that they need, i'm just saying that the child should get it first because they've done nothing wrong to get put in that situation. i have no pity for drinkers.

[kimmytree]

again, i didn't say it would stop the addiction. i'm just saying that they have a choice. will-power is a majority of breaking any addiction though. like i said, it's not impossible for anyone.
edit:
oh yeah. and kimmy, on this topic, i've been waiting for you to reply for around a week now.

Well obviously. Everything we do in life is a choice. Everything in life has its risks. Not everyone who drinks ends up dying over it. And certainly no one drinks thinking they'll become addicted or die from it. I'm not trying to excuse anyone for doing it, but come on. If a person *KNEW* they were going to need a organ transplant or something later on in life from drinking, they would never take the first sip. Everyone makes mistakes in life... whether its taking their first sip, smoking their first joint, etc. They just become uncontrollable habits. I dont know how hard it is to completely stop drinking, but I know it takes some people years to break the habit of smoking.

Dont worry, I didnt forget about it. I'm just a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. The debate was going nowhere. But ahhh whatever.

most of the time it's peer pressure. choices, choices, choices. people should learn to good make choices. that's just a fact. even if it was an "urge" that caused it, it's still a choice. no one forced anyone do drink. so it's their own fault. i'm in no way saying that they should get an organ that they need, i'm just saying that the child should get it first because they've done nothing wrong to get put in that situation. i have no pity for drinkers.

Yeah, but EVERYONE makes a bad choice somewhere along the line. I dont mean to sound all stalkerish, but I saw the other day you talking about getting your face pierced... that's no more peer pressure or a bad choice than some kid starting to drink. Hopefully I didnt just cross the line by saying that - because I dont mean it in a bad way. But everyone caves into peer pressure in one way or another. Its sad, but true.

[cori-catastrophe]

Well obviously. Everything we do in life is a choice. Everything in life has its risks. Not everyone who drinks ends up dying over it. And certainly no one drinks thinking they'll become addicted or die from it. I'm not trying to excuse anyone for doing it, but come on. If a person *KNEW* they were going to need a organ transplant or something later on in life from drinking, they would never take the first sip. Everyone makes mistakes in life... whether its taking their first sip, smoking their first joint, etc. They just become uncontrollable habits. I dont know how hard it is to completely stop drinking, but I know it takes some people years to break the habit of smoking.

Dont worry, I didnt forget about it. I'm just a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. The debate was going nowhere. But ahhh whatever.
Yeah, but EVERYONE makes a bad choice somewhere along the line. I dont mean to sound all stalkerish, but I saw the other day you talking about getting your face pierced... that's no more peer pressure or a bad choice than some kid starting to drink. Hopefully I didnt just cross the line by saying that - because I dont mean it in a bad way. But everyone caves into peer pressure in one way or another. Its sad, but true.

i do understand what you're saying and i half-way agree with you. i'm not sure, but it just seems like common sense to me that the child would get the organ first. that is, unless they were going to die anyways and it could save the drinker's life.
the debate was going nowhere because you stop replying. i like debating with you. it's a challenge.
i never said that everyone doesn't make a bad choice. everyone does, like you implyed. i didn't get my piercing because of peer pressure. i got it because i felt like it would express myself more. actually, i got in an argument with this guy. he said not to get it, because they were ugly. lots of people don't like that particular kind of piercing because it's pretty uncommon. but i'm not doing it to satisfy anyone else.
and yes, you're right. everyone has peer pressure. people give in alot. i've given in to alot of things. and if i get addicted, it'll be my own fault because i know the risks.

[alysaphobia]

I really think you have to disregard whether or not this man was morally WRONG to put himself in this state, and disregard that the child is so small and innocent, because it should, (and normally does) all come down to this single point-

WHICH ONE OF THE TWO NEEDS THE KIDNEY SOONEST?

Is the man's life of less importance just because his condition was from a choice he CHOSE to make voluntarily? Nobody really has the right to judge the value of one life compared to another. This man is asking for a kidney transplant- not for silly judgement. He's already facing the consequences of his alcohol habits anyways, if the issue is moral here. (And for the fee of the transplant, later on.)

[kimmytree]

i do understand what you're saying and i half-way agree with you. i'm not sure, but it just seems like common sense to me that the child would get the organ first. that is, unless they were going to die anyways and it could save the drinker's life.
the debate was going nowhere because you stop replying. i like debating with you. it's a challenge.
i never said that everyone doesn't make a bad choice. everyone does, like you implyed. i didn't get my piercing because of peer pressure. i got it because i felt like it would express myself more. actually, i got in an argument with this guy. he said not to get it, because they were ugly. lots of people don't like that particular kind of piercing because it's pretty uncommon. but i'm not doing it to satisfy anyone else.
and yes, you're right. everyone has peer pressure. people give in alot. i've given in to alot of things. and if i get addicted, it'll be my own fault because i know the risks.

Oh, I agree - the child should be given the chance to live before any adult, even if they both needed an organ as a result of a birth defect... but that's if they're in the same type of condition. But if a child still has several weeks/months to live, and the adult is in critical condition - then by all means the adult should have it.

Well, I stopped replying because I didnt feel like it was really going anywhere. It just seemed like we kept repeating things over and over again. It's not your fault or anything though - it seems like that's how it usually is when people try to debate things like that. Religion cant be completely proved or disproved in a debate. But I think I'll go back and re-read to your last post there, and hopefully think of something else to add.

That's great that you didnt do it just to fit in then. I shouldnt have worded that the way I did - I meant that it seems like a large majority of people who do get piercings like that do it because of peer pressure or to fit in... but certainly not everyone.

[cori-catastrophe]

Oh, I agree - the child should be given the chance to live before any adult, even if they both needed an organ as a result of a birth defect... but that's if they're in the same type of condition. But if a child still has several weeks/months to live, and the adult is in critical condition - then by all means the adult should have it.

Well, I stopped replying because I didnt feel like it was really going anywhere. It just seemed like we kept repeating things over and over again. It's not your fault or anything though - it seems like that's how it usually is when people try to debate things like that. Religion cant be completely proved or disproved in a debate. But I think I'll go back and re-read to your last post there, and hopefully think of something else to add.

That's great that you didnt do it just to fit in then. I shouldnt have worded that the way I did - I meant that it seems like a large majority of people who do get piercings like that do it because of peer pressure or to fit in... but certainly not everyone.

i do understand what you're saying. and i agree in those circumstances. but the op said nothing about the time that had to live.